Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Opal said:

After reading this from both of you, I guess my Libra Sun and Mercury are tingling
with the thought of why do we have to be labeled?
I use all material that is available to me for my astrological studies
.......my free will doesn’t want to be limited
........gnosis is from anywhere you receive it from

Click to expand...

everyone chooses their own path
and so
for those who prefer a label
we have a traditional astrology board at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92
as well as
a Modernist astrology board at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=95
and multiple General astrology boards
so we may all exercise our free will

Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

wilsontc said:

Quoting lostinstars over several points:


As has been mentioned before on this thread, it's important to first define your terms before engaging in discussion.

Normal definition of fate in terms of a person's life: Incidents in the person's life are pre-determined and will play out exactly as planned. The person can in no way deviate from them in any way.

Since it is clear that this is NOT the way the world works there is the idea of "free will": A person has a choice in what they do in their own life.

In all discussions of "fate" there must be at least SOME acknowledgement of "free will" (whether or not it is mentioned) in order for the discussion to match reality. The question is NOT whether "fate" or "free will" operates in a person's life. The question is how MUCH of a person's life is "fate" (events are pre-determined) vs. "free will" (events are chosen).

Click to expand...

I disagree. I don't think determinism is clearly NOT the way the world works. The presupposition of your statement is that the overarching fate is known so that deviations from this plan are recognized. That is not the case. Why would we need astrology then? Determinists would probably argue that no one is omniscient, but everything that happens has been pre-determined.

I'm not sure I believe the planets, signs and houses cause events, experiences and create the human being in question. I'm simply uncertain. What I do believe is that they are at the very least a mirror, reflective of the conditions of human experiences, from a mundane perspective all the way done to a natal chart and horary. I believe JupiterAsc had a post highlighting the hierarchy of different charts somewhere on this forum.

You mentioned how a person does not have unlimited free will without repercussions but rather a choice in how they react. I disagree.

I believe a natal chart at least reflects the core constitution of a person and then transits, progressions, profection years, solar returns, lunar returns, the 5 levels of Vimshottari etc. etc. The list can go on. These techniques together could tell you how that person will react at any given moment. I think astrology, if you wanted to dive right in and combine several techniques, could tell you what's going to happen within a very small and specific time frame. HOWEVER, who has time for that really?

Astrologers are unable at a practical level to correlate the heavens with minute human experiences given certain constraints like time and personal interest. I don't believe the errors in astrological prediction indicate free will is the cause of interference and deviation. I believe it is human error.

Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

moonkat235 said:

I'm not sure I believe the planets, signs and houses cause events, experiences and create the human being in question. I'm simply uncertain. What I do believe is that they are at the very least a mirror, reflective of the conditions of human experiences, from a mundane perspective all the way done to a natal chart and horary. I believe JupiterAsc had a post highlighting the hierarchy of different charts somewhere on this forum.

Click to expand...

Some traditional astrologers would say heavens are reflective of the events on the planet but it is partial truth heavens are not just reflective but also cause or influence events on earth. That is my opinion and it is seen in action so it must be true. Every one experiences seasons and we know when spring turns into summer, earth nor sun is reflective of the seasons but the motion of earth around Sun is causing the seasons.

What stops people from accepting that the planetary motions can cause events just like seasons on earth? I don't know.

Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

moonkat235 said:

I disagree. I don't think determinism is clearly NOT the way the world works. The presupposition of your statement is that the overarching fate is known so that deviations from this plan are recognized. That is not the case. Why would we need astrology then? Determinists would probably argue that no one is omniscient, but everything that happens has been pre-determined.

I'm not sure I believe the planets, signs and houses cause events, experiences and create the human being in question. I'm simply uncertain. What I do believe is that they are at the very least a mirror, reflective of the conditions of human experiences, from a mundane perspective all the way done to a natal chart and horary.


I believe JupiterAsc had a post


highlighting the hierarchy of different charts


somewhere on this forum.

Click to expand...

Traditional Astrology is hierarchical
Mundane astrology astrological prediction has the following hierarchy of charts
as an example for the location of New York

starting with:

Grand Conjunction 1702
21 May 1702
4:01:37 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
074°W00'37"
40°N42'26"


Great Mutation (Earth) 1802
17 Jul 1802
5:52:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


Great Malefic 1976
12 May 1976
9:51:13 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


…...............................................................................................................
HOWEVER

this chart....


Great Malefic 2004
25 May 2004
1:20 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


....is now the operating Malefic Chart until....


Great Malefic 2034
26 Jun 2034
5:33:42 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


becomes operative

and also


Great Mutation (Air) & Great Conjunction 2020
21 Dec 2020
1:24:22 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


….........................................................................................................

MEANWHILE

Great Conjunction 2000
28 May 2000
11:07:39 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


2019 Aries Ingress
20 Mar 2014
Federal Hall, New York


....Insert Your Natal Chart and/or 'Event Chart' Here.....

That is the hierarchy of charts in Mundane Astrology


Note:

Relocate the chart(s) to your country
and
for maximum accuracy
use the "foundation point"

eg: Romania = Alba Iulia, not Bucharesti

Japan = Kyoto, not Tokyo

Spain = Toledo, not Madrid

and so on

moonkat235 said:

You mentioned how a person does not have unlimited free will without repercussions but rather a choice in how they react. I disagree.

I believe a natal chart at least reflects the core constitution of a person and then transits, progressions, profection years, solar returns, lunar returns, the 5 levels of Vimshottari etc. etc. The list can go on. These techniques together could tell you how that person will react at any given moment. I think astrology, if you wanted to dive right in and combine several techniques, could tell you what's going to happen within a very small and specific time frame. HOWEVER, who has time for that really?

Astrologers are unable at a practical level to correlate the heavens with minute human experiences given certain constraints like time and personal interest. I don't believe the errors in astrological prediction indicate free will is the cause of interference and deviation. I believe it is human error.

Click to expand...

Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?

lostinstars said:

Some traditional astrologers would say heavens are reflective of the events on the planet but it is partial truth heavens are not just reflective but also cause or influence events on earth. That is my opinion and it is seen in action so it must be true. Every one experiences seasons and we know when spring turns into summer, earth nor sun is reflective of the seasons but the motion of earth around Sun is causing the seasons.

What stops people from accepting that the planetary motions can cause events just like seasons on earth? I don't know.

Click to expand...

RESEARCH BY RETIRED MATHEMATICS TEACHER LAWRENCE EDWARDS

'....In 1982 Edwards daily photographed tree buds on a selection of trees
and found that buds expanded and contracted to an approximate fortnightly rhythm.
These periods varied between 13.6 and 14.7 days
but each species of bud kept the same period in their rhythm.
Edwards realised these were astronomical rhythms
and
each period correlated to the Moon's alignment with a planet and the Earth....'

https://www.astro-calendar.com/shtml/Research/research_edwards2.shtml

LAWRENCE EDWARDS work evidences
correlation of planetary influences on plant life


'....When the Earth, Moon and planet were in a straight line
the buds of the tree where in a more rounded, expanded shape.
When Moon and planet where 90 degrees apart
(as seen from the Earth),
buds took on a more oval, contracted shape, sharp at one end and blunt at the other.
Even in the middle of Winter buds are doing a rhythmic dance
whose tune is called by the planetary movements.
Which planet in particular affected a tree was determined by the tree's planetary "rulership"....'


'....Oak trees are "ruled" by Mars
i.e.
some of its rhythms are determined by Mars rhythms
Elm trees by Mercury,
Cherry by Moon,
Ash by Sun
Beech by Saturn.
Moon 13.67 days from conjunction with Saturn to opposition with Saturn.
The opposition and conjunction aspects
are when the Earth, Moon and Saturn are in a straight line;
this is also when the buds of Beech trees or conifers attain their most rounded shape.....'

determinism, to moonkat

moonkat235 said:

I disagree. I don't think determinism is clearly NOT the way the world works. The presupposition of your statement is that the overarching fate is known so that deviations from this plan are recognized...You mentioned how a person does not have unlimited free will without repercussions but rather a choice in how they react. I disagree...I believe a natal chart at least reflects the core constitution of a person...These techniques together could tell you how that person will react at any given moment. I think astrology, if you wanted to dive right in and combine several techniques, could tell you what's going to happen within a very small and specific time frame...I don't believe the errors in astrological prediction indicate free will is the cause of interference and deviation. I believe it is human error.

Click to expand...

Based only on what you say at the end, it sounds like you believe in an entirely fated world and choice itself is an illusion. The only reason astrologers haven't been able to pin down what people are doing from moment to moment is because they either don't have the astrological ability or don't have the time to work out the necessary equations.

If EVERYTHING is entirely predetermined then I go back to my previous statement of saying that, with this view of the world, there is no reason to try to do anything. Everything will happen as it's going to happen and you might as well just sit back and let it happen.

As mentioned, this theory that everything is predetermined simply leads to stagnation since there is no reason to try if everything will happen as its meant to be. Following out the logic there is no reason to get out of bed or do anything because "whatever will be will be" and fate will simply force the person to do what is required when it is needed.

However, based on what you said earlier, I think you get at what I was saying. A person is fated to have the chart energies they have. What they DO with those energies is the person free will. Naturally, if they are UNAWARE of those energies, those energies will tend to automatically follow the path of least resistance: stressful aspects will lead to stressful situations, easy aspects will lead to easy situations and they will tend to follow a "fated" path in life. However, if the person knows their astrological chart, they can DECIDE (i.e., use free will) on HOW they want to use their energies. They are still fated to have the energies they have, and so their choices will be limited to using those energies, but they can use those energies in the way that is best for them.

We have the same idea of the chart being fate, where we differ is you say that the chart pattern determines the fate of the person's life (traditional astrology) while I say that the chart pattern determines the different energies a person has to work with in their life (modern astrology).

About the differences,

Tim

Re: determinism, to moonkat

wilsontc said:

Based only on what you say at the end, it sounds like you believe in an entirely fated world and choice itself is an illusion. The only reason astrologers haven't been able to pin down what people are doing from moment to moment is because they either don't have the astrological ability or don't have the time to work out the necessary equations.

If EVERYTHING is entirely predetermined then I go back to my previous statement of saying that, with this view of the world, there is no reason to try to do anything. Everything will happen as it's going to happen and you might as well just sit back and let it happen.

As mentioned, this theory that everything is predetermined simply leads to stagnation since there is no reason to try if everything will happen as its meant to be. Following out the logic there is no reason to get out of bed or do anything because "whatever will be will be" and fate will simply force the person to do what is required when it is needed.

However, based on what you said earlier, I think you get at what I was saying. A person is fated to have the chart energies they have. What they DO with those energies is the person free will. Naturally, if they are UNAWARE of those energies, those energies will tend to automatically follow the path of least resistance: stressful aspects will lead to stressful situations, easy aspects will lead to easy situations and they will tend to follow a "fated" path in life. However, if the person knows their astrological chart, they can DECIDE (i.e., use free will) on HOW they want to use their energies. They are still fated to have the energies they have, and so their choices will be limited to using those energies, but they can use those energies in the way that is best for them.

We have the same idea of the chart being fate, where we differ is you say that the chart pattern determines the fate of the person's life (traditional astrology) while I say that the chart pattern determines the different energies a person has to work with in their life (modern astrology).

About the differences,

Tim

Click to expand...

I disagree. I do believe in an entirely fated/deterministic viewpoint and I don't think there's no point in changing or trying. I believe fate makes you try and change and makes you desire new things for yourself. Fate does not really allow for one to sit back and do nothing. Many factors will force you to act. Fate is not a stagnant concept. One's chart energies for instance can be modified and nuanced by progressions and transits. It isn't so simple as one should sit back. That isn't how fate operates.

I simply do not believe in free will. I believe what we desire, what we aim for, what we find beautiful or aesthetically pleasing is all hard wired into our charts and progressions, etc.

fate, to moonkat

moonkat235 said:

...I do believe in an entirely fated/deterministic viewpoint and I don't think there's no point in changing or trying...Fate does not really allow for one to sit back and do nothing. Many factors will force you to act. Fate is not a stagnant concept. One's chart energies for instance can be modified and nuanced by progressions and transits. It isn't so simple as one should sit back. That isn't how fate operates.

Click to expand...

moonkat,

I think we're closer on this than you think. What you are calling "fate" I'm calling "free will". I'm defining "fate" as something unchangeable and inevitable while you define fate as something that CAN be changed. I'm separating the "unchanging" part of things and calling it "fate" from the "changeable" part of things and calling that "free will". So when you modify and nuance things in your life THAT is using your "free will".

Explaining,

Tim

Re: fate, to moonkat

wilsontc said:

moonkat,

I think we're closer on this than you think. What you are calling "fate" I'm calling "free will". I'm defining "fate" as something unchangeable and inevitable while you define fate as something that CAN be changed. I'm separating the "unchanging" part of things and calling it "fate" from the "changeable" part of things and calling that "free will". So when you modify and nuance things in your life THAT is using your "free will".

Explaining,

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi wilsontc,

Where I differ is the cause I think. I do not believe someone modifies and changes things in their life of their own independent decision making processes. It is not the individual's freedom of choice or will to act. That's an illusion. In reality, one's will is pre-determined in the first place and the trajectory of one's life and the changes enacted have been drawn out.

The concept that we can react or change to stimuli based on our own power is not what I believe. It's okay that you believe we have free will, the power to enact our own changes. I think most people should live under the illusion/pretense that they have self-efficacy. I still speak and act as if I do.

personal responsibility, to moonkat

moonkat235 said:

I do not believe someone modifies and changes things in their life of their own independent decision making processes. It is not the individual's freedom of choice or will to act. That's an illusion...I think most people should live under the illusion/pretense that they have self-efficacy. I still speak and act as if I do.

Click to expand...

moonkat,

I have been thinking about this for awhile and now I understand that you see ALL life as "fated" but that we have the ILLUSION that some of that "fate" is "free will": we do things THINKING we have free will but actually even those choices we make are all fated.

It occurs to me that this idea completely throws out the idea of personal responsibility and the basis of Western Civilization. IF we have NO responsibility for what we do then it is useless to attempt to punish or discipline people who do bad behavior. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, etc. were simply following their fate. Using the theory of "everything is fated" there is NO reason to punish these people since they were all fated to do what they did and could do NOTHING else. Disciplining and punishing are meant to change people's behavior and create consequences for people doing things that hurt society. If people have no free will then there is NO changing people's behavior (that's all just an illusion) and attempting to do so is just wasted effort.

It's understandable you want people to PRETEND there is free will since, if they live life as it ACTUALLY is (according to your view), they have no personal responsibility and chaos reigns in its place.

About the consequences,

Tim

Re: fate, to moonkat

moonkat235 said:

Hi wilsontc,

Where I differ is the cause I think. I do not believe someone modifies and changes things in their life of their own independent decision making processes. It is not the individual's freedom of choice or will to act. That's an illusion. In reality, one's will is pre-determined in the first place and the trajectory of one's life and the changes enacted have been drawn out.

The concept that we can react or change to stimuli based on our own power is not what I believe. It's okay that you believe we have free will, the power to enact our own changes. I think most people should live under the illusion/pretense that they have self-efficacy. I still speak and act as if I do.

Click to expand...

From my point of view you are choosing with your free will choice to not believe in free will choice as free will choice starts from my perspective with the intent/thought/belief which then lays the foundation for action that is supported.

If there is something that one could label as fate then that from my perspective would have been created by free will choice in the first place/beginning and can therefore be changed with free will choice if the person chooses to not buy into the concept of fate with their free will choice.
It is a free will choice to believe in fate and a free will choice to believe in free will which puts people in different realities of power depending on if they lend their power away or if they take ownership of that power from my perspective.

Y

I agree with Moonkat on a lot of points. If we have free will, would we all not live perfect little lives of our choosing? Fated, we don’t control what happens. We don’t choose to be poor, we choose to be successful. Circumstances or fate, are not our choosing. We don’t choose to be murdered, it happens without our free will. Most would not choose to be incarcerated in jail or insane asylums or prisoner of war camps. So fate would have to be stronger than free will.

I believe some people believe in fate to get away from choices that their souls may have made a long time ago that make it seems that they are being caused by a lot of troubles when in reality they themselves has caused a lot of harm to themselves and others by their free will choices and it is coming back to them. Calling this fate is in my view to move away from taking responsibility and blocking their ways of healing.

They might call this fate, but I call it universal karma.

Y

wilsontc said:

moonkat,

I have been thinking about this for awhile and now I understand that you see ALL life as "fated" but that we have the ILLUSION that some of that "fate" is "free will": we do things THINKING we have free will but actually even those choices we make are all fated.

It occurs to me that this idea completely throws out the idea of personal responsibility and the basis of Western Civilization. IF we have NO responsibility for what we do then it is useless to attempt to punish or discipline people who do bad behavior. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, etc. were simply following their fate. Using the theory of "everything is fated" there is NO reason to punish these people since they were all fated to do what they did and could do NOTHING else. Disciplining and punishing are meant to change people's behavior and create consequences for people doing things that hurt society. If people have no free will then there is NO changing people's behavior (that's all just an illusion) and attempting to do so is just wasted effort.

It's understandable you want people to PRETEND there is free will since, if they live life as it ACTUALLY is (according to your view), they have no personal responsibility and chaos reigns in its place.

About the consequences,

Tim

Click to expand...

ynnest said:

I believe some people believe in fate to get away from choices that their souls may have made a long time ago that make it seems that they are being caused by a lot of troubles when in reality they themselves has caused a lot of harm to themselves and others by their free will choices and it is coming back to them. Calling this fate is in my view to move away from taking responsibility and blocking their ways of healing.

They might call this fate, but I call it universal karma.

Y

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how to explain. I think maybe in a concept as large and universal as fate, that we can't simply view it in such personal humanistic terms as human morality. It's not about culpability. I doubt fate personified really cares about who's to blame. I think people approach the concept from the lens of their own practical subjective experience, whereas I try to look at it from a bird's eye view. At a fundamental level, cognitively, I doubt there is good and evil and the goal is eradication of 'evil', good triumphs over evil doesn't seem accurate when examining forces beyond humanity. There is only polarity and balance imo. You can't have 'good' without 'evil', etc.

I said the illusion of free will is helpful on a practical level and that is true. One of the ways that fate makes one it's subject I think is by facilitating the delusion that it's all about 'you', that it's all about your decisions and your experience, etc. That way you play into fate's hands willingly. People who claim fate is responsible for their lives are not incorrect, but that's just such a reductionist perspective on what is actually happening that I think it's largely unhelpful in informing their daily lives.

In all honesty, the fate vs free will debate is intellectually stimulating to some degree, but largely impractical and uninformative in how one 'should' live their lives.

moonkat235 said:

I'm not sure how to explain. I think maybe in a concept as large and universal as fate, that we can't simply view it in such personal humanistic terms as human morality. It's not about culpability. I doubt fate personified really cares about who's to blame. I think people approach the concept from the lens of their own practical subjective experience, whereas I try to look at it from a bird's eye view. At a fundamental level, cognitively, I doubt there is good and evil and the goal is eradication of 'evil', good triumphs over evil doesn't seem accurate when examining forces beyond humanity. There is only polarity and balance imo. You can't have 'good' without 'evil', etc.

I said the illusion of free will is helpful on a practical level and that is true. One of the ways that fate makes one it's subject I think is by facilitating the delusion that it's all about 'you', that it's all about your decisions and your experience, etc. That way you play into fate's hands willingly. People who claim fate is responsible for their lives are not incorrect, but that's just such a reductionist perspective on what is actually happening that I think it's largely unhelpful in informing their daily lives.

In all honesty, the fate vs free will debate is intellectually stimulating to some degree, but largely impractical and uninformative in how one 'should' live their lives.

Click to expand...

Free will choice is like I pointed out vaster than choices in this life in my view as it expands beyond it many times and also involves other people and their free will choices traced back in time which together creates a situation that many people from my perspective would judge as fate, while I mean that that is free will choices that are interconnected within each other in a kind of a spiderweb/matrix and the way so solve this spider web/matrix is for each person to regain their awareness of/own their free will choice within this entanglement and then untangle themselves out of it step by step by within the limitations that their and others free will choices has created both individually and collectively in this right now moment we are currently in.

It is a kind of a mix of the traditionalistic and modernistic viewpoint I would say.

Y

mundane vs personal, to moonkat

moonkat235 said:

I think people approach the concept from the lens of their own practical subjective experience, whereas I try to look at it from a bird's eye view. At a fundamental level, cognitively, I doubt there is good and evil and the goal is eradication of 'evil', good triumphs over evil doesn't seem accurate when examining forces beyond humanity. There is only polarity and balance imo. You can't have 'good' without 'evil', etc...One of the ways that fate makes one it's subject I think is by facilitating the delusion that it's all about 'you', that it's all about your decisions and your experience, etc. ...the fate vs free will debate is intellectually stimulating to some degree, but largely impractical and uninformative in how one 'should' live their lives.

Click to expand...

moonkat,

It occurs to me that what you're talking about maybe what I consider more Mundane astrology which IS fated. The astrology of world conditions is fated because the world (and places and events IN the world) can NOT adjust based on astrological information. So the world and events CAN be predicted by using astrological charts. That's why squares in mundane charts always indicate SOME type of violence and danger, oppositions indicate warring factions, etc. But in PERSONAL charts people can choose what to do individually.

This results in the WORLD will go through whatever it's meant to go through while the INDIVIDUAL can adjust their life so THEY get through world events...intact. Of course, the more challenging the world events are, the more limited the adjustments an individual can make. So when comparing mundane to personal astrology there is still the "balancing act" of fated vs. personal.

About the differences of world and personal,

Tim

Re: mundane vs personal, to moonkat

wilsontc said:

moonkat,

It occurs to me that what you're talking about
maybe what I consider more Mundane astrology which IS fated.
The astrology of world conditions is fated
because the world (and places and events IN the world)
can NOT adjust based on astrological information.
So the world and events CAN be predicted by using astrological charts.
That's why squares in mundane charts
always indicate SOME type of violence and danger, oppositions indicate warring factions, etc.
But in PERSONAL charts people can choose what to do
individually.

Click to expand...

re: MUNDANE aka WORLD astrology and your agreement
that WORLD aka MUNDANE astrology IS fated
the following quote illustrates:

'......even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities,
when the time for war for that country comes,
they will all be killed....' Ibn Ezra

wilsontc said:

This results in the WORLD will go through whatever it's meant to go through
while the INDIVIDUAL can adjust their life
so THEY get through world events...intact.
Of course, the more challenging the world events are,
the more limited the adjustments an individual can make.
So when comparing mundane to personal astrology
there is still the "balancing act" of fated vs. personal.

Clearly
with reference to WORLD aka MUNDANE FATED astrology and INDIVIDUAL FREEWILL

INDIVIDUALS in HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI
HAD ONE MAJOR FACTOR in common during August 1945
i.e.
THEY WERE ALL LOCATED
IN TWO CITIES ON WHICH AN ATOMIC BOMB WAS DROPPED.

Olivia said:

And that is the key right there
not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions
that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard,
otherwise known as ibn Ezra,
one of the first things he tells astrologers is
that astrology does not contravene natural law.
He also explains that

a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy of other considerations.
From Nativities and Revolutions:
...The third way is the rule that comes from
the effect of the Great Conjunction on each country.
Thus, if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations
war is supposed to befall a certain nation,
even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities,
when the time for war for that country comes, they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.

Click to expand...

About the differences of world and personal,

Tim

Click to expand...

Re: mundane vs personal, to moonkat

wilsontc said:

moonkat,

It occurs to me that what you're talking about maybe what I consider more Mundane astrology which IS fated. The astrology of world conditions is fated because the world (and places and events IN the world) can NOT adjust based on astrological information. So the world and events CAN be predicted by using astrological charts. That's why squares in mundane charts always indicate SOME type of violence and danger, oppositions indicate warring factions, etc. But in PERSONAL charts people can choose what to do individually.

This results in the WORLD will go through whatever it's meant to go through while the INDIVIDUAL can adjust their life so THEY get through world events...intact. Of course, the more challenging the world events are, the more limited the adjustments an individual can make. So when comparing mundane to personal astrology there is still the "balancing act" of fated vs. personal.

About the differences of world and personal,

Tim

Click to expand...

You misunderstand, but that's okay. I'll attempt this last time to express my perspective to you. I think the miscommunication stems from the deeply held conviction that you have regarding our ability to act free from influence. You seem to hold the opinion that conscious awareness of influences allows for conscious redirection based on one's will. And you seem to believe this opinion is self-evident in every person's subjective experience. It is not.

What I'm saying is that one's will is predetermined, fated if you will. Why do we want the things we want? How is our personality formed? How exactly would you define one's 'individual will'? Is that will free from all constraints and influences?

My opinion is that what I find desirable, what I find beautiful, what I want out of life is not without complete fundamental influence by more external concepts. Do you see now?

Further, I was not speaking of mundane astrology or 'worldly' affairs in a human sense. I was speaking of more macro universal forces that work at the micro individual level as well. I'm saying at a fundamental level, there is no right or wrong, good or evil and that viewing fate and determinism through the lens of personal responsibility is far too reductionist and simplistic. That's not the point. People shouldn't understand fate to inform how they behave. There's no point.

The understanding of fate/determinism is largely uninformative in how one 'should' live their life, and it's more of an intellectually stimulating curiosity. I don't think people should be thinking of how determinism takes away personal responsibility, because larger universal forces would rather humanity believe in their own self-efficacy. In this way, fate deludes humans into thinking they act of their own accord, when really they just behave within the confines of fate's dictation.