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  #151  
Unread 07-15-2020, 12:55 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

Do you know that many black people are born in this country and have generations in this country? What makes you say that leaving this country and emigrating to another one is easier? Pray, tell.

Would you leave if you were born here, had your family here, your entire life here?

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I never said it was their fault. I was merely saying that it would be the easier thing to do. It's like I said, changing hundreds of millions of people is very hard.

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  #152  
Unread 07-15-2020, 01:45 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

This thread has completely gone off-topic.

Osa will probably close it very soon.
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Last edited by Dirius; 07-15-2020 at 01:48 AM.
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  #153  
Unread 07-15-2020, 01:57 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

Well, at least this thread has uncovered and divulged a lot of underlying some very gross sentiments some harbour towards their fellow beings. It has helped me personally understand even better why there is such a deep racism problem still very much present in society.

Yes, we have come a long way in 200 years in 2020, but when today somebody says they don't like a black person because they find them ugly (can't stop shaking my head still)- that also shows how far we still need to go in terms of achieving decency and respect for one another.
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Last edited by aquarius7000; 07-15-2020 at 02:02 AM.
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  #154  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:10 AM
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I never said it was their fault. I was merely saying that it would be the easier thing to do. It's like I said, changing hundreds of millions of people is very hard.
You don't realize how much they have changed. From Slavery to Jim Crow to the message everyone heard from MLK, on through the Civil Rights legislation, the hip hop culture so attractive to so many, and a mixed-race President.

Now, it's another push for equality that will be absorbed and assimilated, on the way to fulfilling MLK's vision. It hasn't been a smooth, easy, process. There were riots in the 60's, there were groups like Snick, Core, and the Black Panthers saying it's not enough yet. And, the Black Muslims saying that America owes land to the descendants of Slaves, and that they wanted it segregated from the majority culture.

The legacy of the Confederacy, which demanded the right to own Slaves, is being challenged like never before. That's something new, which is very upsetting to a lot of people.

Last edited by david starling; 07-15-2020 at 05:23 AM.
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  #155  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:14 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

Dirius, the problem of cultural "slippage" is probably more than either of us has come to terms with at present.

I used the primary English language definition of "nationality" and that is all that I meant. And you know this. This is an English-language forum.

The primary English definition means your relationship to the state, and normally citizenship. (Some exceptions to the latter.) According to the primary definition that I used, "nationality" is not co-equal with "ethnicity," let alone "race."

If this is a "first world view," it is one widely shared by on-line English language dictionaries.

It is entirely possible that the equivalent word for the English "nationality" would read differently in another language such as Spanish or in a country where English is not the predominant language. That's fine, and I am happy to acknowledge that this might be the case, but I am using the primary English-language definition.

As I explained previously, there are additional definitions of nationality, such as stateless groups that self-identify as nations. An example would be the Kurds. (Some of my background is Friesian: is that a nation, an ethnic group, or an historical artifact to you?)

In the US some Native Americans call their group a nation. Others use older Anglo terms like tribe or band.

So I don't claim to use the only definition of nationality, merely the primary one in the English language.

If I say your nation is Argentina, this means that you belong to the República Argentina in the sense of the republic, not to a particular ethnicity because your country has multiple ethnic groups. It's what you would write down on a form asking you to identify your country of citizenship.

If I say that you are a foreign national vis`a vis the United States, that simply means you are not a citizen of the United States. It's not pejorative. It's a simple statement of fact.

If the equivalent word in Argentina for the English word "nationality" is used differently than is the primary English-language definition, that's fine. As I said, there may be something changed or lost in translation.

This doesn't make me a racist. I am writing in English on an English-language forum.

As I previously mentioned "race" is a highly problematical term not favored by anthropologists today. "Race" is more of a cultural construct.

It is still on the US census forms, however. But the Census Bureau explains race as "social groups," not as genetic inheritance. People self-identify, so it doesn't go by blood quantum. The categories are:

White (includes Europe, Near East, North Africa)

Native Americans and Alaska Natives

Black or African American

Asian ("Far East," Southeast Asia, India)

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander (Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, &c)

People can also report a bi-racial identity (Cf. Tiger Woods.)

There is no Hispanic race category, because it is viewed more as a linguistic category rather than as a race. Spanish speakers might have roots in any of a large number of countries. They can report whichever race they wish. There is a separate category called Ethnicity" and here people can report "Hispanic or Latino" vs. "Not Hispanic or Latino."

https://www.census.gov/mso/www/train...y-onepager.pdf
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  #156  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:23 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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You mean like when you called my post "racist" (in the BLM thread) and then refused to explain why?

We all know that if you have considered my post racist, you would have reported that post - as you often do. But you didn't, and we know why
Sorry, Dirius-- which post was that?

As I said, I gave up reporting rule-breakers to the moderators several years ago.

But "it is funny how" there are so many posts on this and the Black Lives Matter/Marxist thread that violate forum rules on civility.
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  #157  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:37 AM
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I recently learned that in Denmark, although the majority ethnic group is called "Danish", it requires only one Danish-native parent for the child to listed as "Danish".

In the U.S., having only one black grandparent qualifies as being of the "Black" race, despite being of 3/4 "White" genetic heritage.
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  #158  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:37 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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No, definitely not the rest of the world. You know more about than I do, because you've traveled so extensively. How many countries would you say are (primarily, not entirely), homogeneous?
Very few, David. Probably Japan and Iceland come closest.

We might distinguish ethnic identities on the basis of language or just what people call themselves.

The countries of Europe may claim unified ethnic identities that are more for ideological than factual purposes. There's a lot more than blood quantum at work.

Just to give more examples, when one of my ancestors immigrated to the US from present-day Germany in the 19th century, there was no unified Germany as we see it on the map. On his immigration papers he listed his country of origin as Bavaria. His district would have spoken a form of German that would have been very different from the "low German" spoken by my other ancestors from the North Sea area.

There was a saying among Italian immigrants to the US that there was no sense of Italy as a nation until they immigrated to the US. In the old country they self-identified by regions (like Sicily, Abruzzo, Tuscany, &c.) They became lumped together as "Italians" as new immigrants.
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  #159  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:40 AM
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Thanks waybread. What about the ethnicity known as "Arabs"?
Also, I was including Sweden, which seems quite homogeneous at first glance.
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  #160  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:43 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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OK, I am going to say something that is probably very unpopular, however I feel that it needs to be said: if black people are so un-happy about living in a white-dominated country like the US, why dont they simply move to another place? There are a lot of countries in Africa that are run by people who look like them. People who hopefully do not act like their (black Americans) lives dont matter. I mean, it's the easiest thing to do, isn't it? There are literally hundreds of millions of white people in the States, and it really would require a Herculean effort to change their racist attitudes towards black people.

If I were black and American, I would really start looking to emigrate.
Why should they? The point isn't to cut and run. It is to improve the United States so that it lives up to its promise of "liberty and justice for all.".

Frankly many white people are unhappy about the United States. Should they go back where their ancestors came from? Can they stick a pin on a map and just go back there?

Re: areas where the US is dysfunctional, it's been compared to supposing that your mother is an alcoholic. You love her because she is your mother but you want her to stop drinking.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #161  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:45 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Hmm, I see.

Well, what if they have their own black communities with only black residents, complete with their own black police officers? That way if a cop kills an innocent man, we can rest easy knowing that it's not due to racism.

To be honest I am quite sick of black people's whining.
Possibly they return the compliment.

I don't think you'd call it "whining" if your innocent child were killed by the police.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #162  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:54 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Ok, so just because you hate racism, that means I can't even find black people ugly? I HAVE TO find them attractive, just to suit your sensibilities?
Maybe you don't have to express every derogatory thought that pops into your head. Keep some of them to yourself.

How good-looking are you, incidentally?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #163  
Unread 07-15-2020, 05:58 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks waybread. What about the ethnicity known as "Arabs"?
Also, I was including Sweden, which seems quite homogeneous at first glance.
There are multiple ethnic groups within the Near East/North Africa/western Asia.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #164  
Unread 07-15-2020, 07:53 AM
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There are multiple ethnic groups within the Near East/North Africa/western Asia.
Race is genetic. Ethnicity is cultural. Seems like religion has a major effect on ethnicity.
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  #165  
Unread 07-16-2020, 01:14 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
How do you imagine you appear to them?

Are you so facially favored?
No. And if some people (be they black or white) want to feel that I am ugly, they have every right to do so.
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  #166  
Unread 07-16-2020, 01:16 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Maybe you don't have to express every derogatory thought that pops into your head. Keep some of them to yourself.
First of all, you dont get to tell me whether my thoughts are derogatory or not. Secondly, even if my thoughts were derogatory, I should still be able to express them. Say them out loud, etc. And if snowflakes (not saying you are one) are offended, then frankly, it's not my problem.

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How good-looking are you, incidentally?
I am quite ugly. And your point?
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  #167  
Unread 07-16-2020, 01:23 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Possibly they return the compliment.

I don't think you'd call it "whining" if your innocent child were killed by the police.
I dont think the innocent child of every BLM activist was killed by the police. Yet they whine. Loudly and incessantly.

Last edited by wan; 07-16-2020 at 01:26 AM.
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  #168  
Unread 07-16-2020, 02:05 AM
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Faulty analogy. Black people do not love America like you or I love our mother. They want to stay in the US because it's a first-world country (built and maintained by white people, btw) and living in it beats living in any of the h*ll-holes found on Africa.
The Slaves had an important role in building it. Now, wage-slaves are continuing to build and maintain it. Wage-slaves of all races.

Look up how many things were actually invented by descendants of Slaves.
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  #169  
Unread 07-16-2020, 03:08 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Race is genetic. Ethnicity is cultural. Seems like religion has a major effect on ethnicity.
It's not quite so simple, David.

Genetic research looking for ethnicity has produced some interesting results.

But agreed, that most of what we think about race and ethnicity is cultural. Suppose for the sake of argument I take your point that "race is genetic." What do we do, then, with that information? Use it as a basis for discrimination?

Maybe there is just one race. The human race.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #170  
Unread 07-16-2020, 03:13 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
First of all, you dont get to tell me whether my thoughts are derogatory or not. Secondly, even if my thoughts were derogatory, I should still be able to express them. Say them out loud, etc. And if snowflakes (not saying you are one) are offended, then frankly, it's not my problem.

I am quite ugly. And your point?
You're right, "I don't get to tell you....." Nor did I. But in an open forum, I am equally entitled to ask questions and to counter your viewpoints. I should be able to express my thoughts just as much as you.

I'm curious as to what derogatory terms about your appearance and ethnic background get applied to you, that you see fit to judge other people.

The last I checked, forum rules prohibit racist comments. So our freedoms on this site are limited.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #171  
Unread 07-16-2020, 03:16 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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I dont think the innocent child of every BLM activist was killed by the police. Yet they whine. Loudly and incessantly.
There is a point where most people are able to emphasize with other people's grief. We can connect through understanding how we would feel in the same situation.

Aren't you "whining" about Black Lives Matter?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #172  
Unread 07-16-2020, 04:10 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

I didn't order you to keep your thoughts to yourself. Although I think you would be wise to do so.

I'm sure your opinions and feeling fed up will make a big difference to a major social justice movement. As the saying goes, they have bigger fish to fry.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #173  
Unread 07-16-2020, 04:15 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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I didn't order you to keep your thoughts to yourself. Although I think you would be wise to do so.

I'm sure your opinions and feeling fed up will make a big difference to a major social justice movement. As the saying goes, they have bigger fish to fry.
I never said my anger or opinions would make a big difference. I am just saying what's on my mind, and I am sure a lot of white people feel the same way, they are just to scared to say anything out loud.
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  #174  
Unread 07-16-2020, 08:32 AM
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A fairly recent immigrant telling people whose ancestors have been here for over 300 years that they should go back to where they came from seems a bit presumptuous.
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  #175  
Unread 07-16-2020, 08:38 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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A fairly recent immigrant telling people whose ancestors have been here for over 300 years that they should go back to where they came from seems a bit presumptuous.
we all came from african continent so i guess... that would be rather interesting ... don't you think?
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