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Dignities & debilities Board for discussing planets in dignities and debilities in natal charts.


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  #1  
Unread 07-03-2006, 01:02 AM
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Neptune in Dignity and Debility

This series of threads was created with the intention of discussing the influence of planetary dignity and debility in natal astrology. Each planet has been designated its own thread and a quick reference sheet of this planet's dignity and debility has been provided.

Dignity:
  • Neptune exerts rulership over Pisces
  • Neptune is exalted in Cancer

Debility:
  • Neptune is in its detriment in Virgo
  • Neptune is in its fall in Capricorn

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Unread 10-25-2006, 07:09 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

All of the outer planets are beyond dignity and debility. I'm not so into tradition that I think that the outers should be ignored completely, but I do contest that they have any place in an already holisitic and complete system of essential dignities and debilities.

Is it impossible to regard the outer planets, interesting as they are, without finding it necessary to squeeze them into a system where they do not belong, because they epitomise forces so great and as yet mysterious that they are above and beyond any such categorisation?

Trying to cast dignities and debilities upon the outer planets is not only unecessary and inappropriate, but damaging to an already badly wounded and confused art.

Just my opinion of course, but none the less, one increasing in popularity, and thankfully so.
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Unread 11-06-2006, 02:27 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Interesting thoughts Draco and you could be right as outer planets are considered "generational" but I can certainly see Uranus causing hell in Leo or Taurus
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Unread 11-14-2007, 09:39 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

As an artist, and student of culture, I am particularly curious about the connection between artistic styles and the transits of Neptune through the various signs.
It will be interesting to see how art changes and evolves when Neptune moves into Pisces.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 04:54 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

I am in a vague agreement with Draco, although I think the planet's typical themes can have more in common with one sign than another. Where I think the outer planets differ from the inner ones is that they have the ability to transform the sign they are in.

For example a Venus in detriment will have its essence in opposition to the sign in which it is placed, which will cause difficulty.

But a Neptune in detriment or exaltation will only mean that the Neptunian themes are similar to those of the sign. As Neptunian themes can be positive or negative detriment and exaltation are less useful as terminology.

The key question then is what is it about a Venusian essence that distinguishes it from a Neptunian theme? The outer planet themes are much broader and more social than the inner planet. The inner planets often manifest in material form- Venus is associated with beautiful things for example, or women etc. The outer planets have a much more transcendental and intangible manifestation- subconscious feelings of guilt, beauty and anger, that permeate throughout society and the individual. Violence is intangible- it is an action and its results can be seen but the planet and cause itself cannot.

That aside, I think that Neptune shares many themes with Leo rather than Cancer. Leo is all about the image, the personality, character, all things which are illusory. Cancer in contrast is the family, genes, blood ties and the home, which are all physical manifestations. Creativity and aesthetics in their highest forms are said to be divine or the more perfect manifestation of man. Neptune and Leo evoke a filmstar glamour such as Marilyn Monroe, or a fantasy world, of Hollywood etc.
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Unread 01-05-2008, 01:42 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

I truly do not think that the outer planets can be included in the system of dignities and what not...But that doesn't mean that I haven't entertained the thought of it..

I do not believe that Neptune would be exalted in Cancer. A planet's place of exaltation is the sign which brings the planet's characteristics to their highest dignity. It's where that planet is welcome;It's an honoured guest.

Neptune in Cancer could be about Bliss in Motherhood but it could also be about Confusion of motherhood, Confusion about the home. Getting lost in emotional security.

And I also don't believe that an outer planet would kick another planet out of it's place of exaltation.

What signs do not have exaltated planets?
Gemini
Leo
Scorpio
Saggitarius
Aquarius

Out of those five, I would think Neptune would feel most at home in Leo. With Leo's focus on the worth of the individual, and Neptune being focused on transcending, I think they fit quite well together.

So if Neptune is exalted in Leo, that means it would be in fall in Aquarius.
With Aquarius energy being focused in the mind, and also about the mass, Neptune's themes of dissolving structures and it's need to dream and fantasize would be stifled. In Leo, Neptune can easily use it's energy to create new identities. Merge distinct egos.
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Unread 01-05-2008, 01:44 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid
I am in a vague agreement with Draco, although I think the planet's typical themes can have more in common with one sign than another. Where I think the outer planets differ from the inner ones is that they have the ability to transform the sign they are in.

For example a Venus in detriment will have its essence in opposition to the sign in which it is placed, which will cause difficulty.

But a Neptune in detriment or exaltation will only mean that the Neptunian themes are similar to those of the sign. As Neptunian themes can be positive or negative detriment and exaltation are less useful as terminology.

The key question then is what is it about a Venusian essence that distinguishes it from a Neptunian theme? The outer planet themes are much broader and more social than the inner planet. The inner planets often manifest in material form- Venus is associated with beautiful things for example, or women etc. The outer planets have a much more transcendental and intangible manifestation- subconscious feelings of guilt, beauty and anger, that permeate throughout society and the individual. Violence is intangible- it is an action and its results can be seen but the planet and cause itself cannot.

That aside, I think that Neptune shares many themes with Leo rather than Cancer. Leo is all about the image, the personality, character, all things which are illusory. Cancer in contrast is the family, genes, blood ties and the home, which are all physical manifestations. Creativity and aesthetics in their highest forms are said to be divine or the more perfect manifestation of man. Neptune and Leo evoke a filmstar glamour such as Marilyn Monroe, or a fantasy world, of Hollywood etc.
wow, I read your post after writing mine, and I must say that I completely agree with what you've wrote.
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Unread 01-05-2008, 07:56 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junke

What signs do not have exaltated planets?
Gemini
Leo
Scorpio
Saggitarius
Aquarius
The north node is exalted in Gemini
The south node is exalted in Saggitarius

The reason there are three signs left over (Leo, Aquarius, Scorpio) is that this system was developed for the nodes plus seven planets, nine in all, with three left unassigned.

With these three signs remaining, "moderns" attempt to "fill them up" with the outers. The "old rules" said that only one "thing" could be exalted in each sign (nodes and planets).

Now, if you give Leo to Neptune, you have two signs left over, Aquarius and Scorpio. But then you would have to consider both Uranus and Pluto exalted in their own signs, flip them (which would be pretty weird), or have them exalted in signs that already have been used.

Your only solution is revise the whole system, and I think that most people are not going to agree with that.

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Unread 01-05-2008, 07:59 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Is Neptune in Scorpio important, even though not on the list? I only wonder cos it seems to me that Scorpio somehow gives more power to Neptune and maybe allows Neptune to express itself in a more mysterious way?
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Unread 01-05-2008, 09:27 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
All of the outer planets are beyond dignity and debility. I'm not so into tradition that I think that the outers should be ignored completely, but I do contest that they have any place in an already holisitic and complete system of essential dignities and debilities.

Is it impossible to regard the outer planets, interesting as they are, without finding it necessary to squeeze them into a system where they do not belong, because they epitomise forces so great and as yet mysterious that they are above and beyond any such categorisation?

Trying to cast dignities and debilities upon the outer planets is not only unecessary and inappropriate, but damaging to an already badly wounded and confused art.

Just my opinion of course, but none the less, one increasing in popularity, and thankfully so.
I agree with Draco here..... Having Neptune in any sign is a generational thing. In saying that it is better in Cancer and Pisces is saying that Neptune for people born between 1901 and 1915 , and, 2012 and 2025 is better than any other time......hardly helpful in the rest of the time!
I remember saying on another forum a few mths ago that i had uranus in dignity, because it was in scorpio........and i was laughed at. I will never do that again......

I wonder though Draco, (and the rest of you!) what you think of the idea that these outers could be in dignity and debility in certain houses instead of signs? I think that would make much more sense...........
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Unread 02-26-2008, 02:02 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

i checked out this thread from my own path of investigation where i have a debilitated mutual reception involving a planet on the ascendent.

Strangely i found the same pattern in my dad but diff signs and his involved neptune on the ascendent in virgo. I have jup and merc in mutual debil recep.

So my dad has this neptune in debility virtually opposing merc also in debility in pisces (which is alo ruled by jup). The generational pattern seems to suggest there is something going on. With ref to both jup and merc and nept. Incidentally, neptune is my most aspected planet.

On one hand I can see using the traditional system and it all working very well. As a system it has been proved worthy over time.

On the other habd I feel we are moving into an era of redefinition of existence, and the outers and centaurs all help to churn up the system so we can re-examine it and come out with a differing system. Maybe it can be more inclusive of something that is happening with us all, and evolution if you like and the outers are very important. The aspects of the outers and especially the transits I notice hugely, but I dont relate much to the signs, maybe because of the generational thing. I can time major life events on outers conjunting my personal planets, it has been quite amazing.

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Unread 04-10-2008, 03:29 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Do these affect individuals directly? or is this something that affects something else that affects something else?
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  #13  
Unread 04-11-2008, 02:22 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

IN relation to the outer planets you mean Jemish?? I tend to think that they effect us directly.

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Unread 05-09-2008, 01:40 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Originally Posted by flea
IN relation to the outer planets you mean Jemish?? I tend to think that they effect us directly.

Love Light Flea
my neptune is in cap

its in my third house though and is exactly opposite my mercury(I am a gemini) and mars, and trines my venus((libra ascendant) and is opposite my sun and 11 degrees trine my moon which isn't an aspect but I relate with the description..(capricorn rules my fourth house though)
it hits a bunch of other stuff too and my ascendant
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  #15  
Unread 06-19-2009, 08:25 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Neptune is exalted in Leo.. Juipiter is exhalted in cancer

I also believe that pluto is exalted in Saggitarius

Last edited by GreenMist; 06-19-2009 at 08:27 PM.
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Unread 06-19-2009, 08:47 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

In my opinion, the system of rulerships is a well-system defined, logical system only to be used with the classical Planets and the Luminaries. The Domocile system neatly divides the seven visible bodies into the twelve signs based on a logical symmetry.

if we are going to ad the extra-Saturnian planets into the Domocile and Exaltation, Detriment and Fall - why not into the Triplicites, Terms and Faces?

I'm of the opinion of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Until Uranus came along, astrologers did quite well just using the visible planets - and some still do. With the discovery of Uranus, then Neptune, and then Pluto some astrologers went crazy trying to assign "sign rulerships" to the new points.

It's as if the coining of new words completely invalidates the basic grammar of a language. You don't change the entire system because of new additions.
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Unread 03-30-2010, 06:16 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

I have Neptune in capricorn and I can say that I feel it's effects very intensely (it's 1-degree from my ascendant; and possibly chart ruler). From my situation I would agree that it's in fall in Cap. As a sun in Cap as well, I'd like to be practical, dependible and straightforward; but it seems I can never see relaity for what it is, and I'm always lost in a dream world (many people often say I appear as if I'm not-quite-here). So definitely this position is putting me off. ... I also have Neptune conj my mercury and a lot of times people do not take my arguments seriously, as if I'm not realistic.

So I know it's a generational planet but maybe it affects the person more when it's on the ascendant or maybe even a certain house placement could highten its affect to the individual. Maybe even in tight conjunct to personal planets.
Like someone else said I can see Neptune being a better influence on a Leo too.
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Unread 03-30-2010, 06:39 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
All of the outer planets are beyond dignity and debility. I'm not so into tradition that I think that the outers should be ignored completely, but I do contest that they have any place in an already holisitic and complete system of essential dignities and debilities.

Is it impossible to regard the outer planets, interesting as they are, without finding it necessary to squeeze them into a system where they do not belong, because they epitomise forces so great and as yet mysterious that they are above and beyond any such categorisation?

Trying to cast dignities and debilities upon the outer planets is not only unecessary and inappropriate, but damaging to an already badly wounded and confused art.

Just my opinion of course, but none the less, one increasing in popularity, and thankfully so.
I totally agree and dont use the dignity and debility terms at all even with personal planets. [deleted attacking comment - Moderator] We need to take the planet in question and its aspects and sign by its own merits and placement in a chart.

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Unread 03-30-2010, 06:46 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Originally Posted by vannasan View Post
I have Neptune in capricorn and I can say that I feel it's effects very intensely (it's 1-degree from my ascendant; and possibly chart ruler). From my situation I would agree that it's in fall in Cap. As a sun in Cap as well, I'd like to be practical, dependible and straightforward; but it seems I can never see relaity for what it is, and I'm always lost in a dream world (many people often say I appear as if I'm not-quite-here). So definitely this position is putting me off. ... I also have Neptune conj my mercury and a lot of times people do not take my arguments seriously, as if I'm not realistic.

So I know it's a generational planet but maybe it affects the person more when it's on the ascendant or maybe even a certain house placement could highten its affect to the individual. Maybe even in tight conjunct to personal planets.
Like someone else said I can see Neptune being a better influence on a Leo too.
You are right in that Neptune would rule your chart and in Capricorn you are able to tap into it and use discipline and caution. I am sure you have a great imagination and visual capacity with Neptune Mercury. Yes it is a generational planet but we all have different aspects to the personal planets and in different parts of our charts. It is the personal planet connection to the outer planets that shape our lives to a large degree especially when a transit comes along to hit it. Life changing in many ways and that is the purpose.
You can say that it is in its fall in Capricorn but that only means that Capricorn is not of the same nature... Not always bad...
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Unread 03-30-2010, 08:13 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Claire19 Thanks for clarifying that; they are of different nature, but that just makes it even harder to work with but I suppose in the end will be gratifying when I learn to channel the energies correctly.
That is also what I meant about generational planets affecting life change to make them more applicable to the individual; BUT I'm still fairly new to astrology and haven't got into the business of 'transits' as yet so forgive me if I can't add more to this aspect of the discussion. just still trying to figure out my birth chart as is and make sense of placements and how they affect life.

Have another question, are squares trines and other aspects more important to how a planet functions than debility or dignity?

EDIT: I mean this in the sense that, if a planet is in debility, then how much can it possibly contribute to a trine if it's already weak?
Or, if in dignity, would it make a square aspect that much harder?

Last edited by vannasan; 03-30-2010 at 03:32 PM.
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Unread 08-18-2010, 02:31 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

I agree about outer planet placements being a generational thing, but what if an outer planet is powerful in your chart? I have Neptune in its fall conjunct my sun and aspecting three other planets as well as my MC.
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Unread 08-18-2010, 07:33 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

(Following is purely speculative hypothesis on my part and should not be understood as any kind of an attempt to put forth new theories or practices)


First I'll declare that I completely agree with Frank and others, above, that when applying a traditional or classical astrological model, the existing allocations of dignities, rulerships, debilities and so on, should be left as is: it works (when applying those models in practice) and that's the only really valid criterion to be applied.

But what about a new ("Modernist") model, for those who don't share the more classical or traditionalist outlook? Couldn't the outers be evaluated by the same, say, elemental quality criteria from the past? For example:
-Pluto; from a study of most of the literature (Modernist) since the 1930's, Pluto seems to fit with the qualities attributed (anciently) to "fire"; certainly this would not fit in with affinity to the watery Scorpio, but would with the fiery Aries and Leo, and possibly with Sagittarius as well
-Neptune: the literature certainly suggests a "water" element affinity; theoretically in our (purely) hypothetical scheme, Neptune might be affinitive with the watery Scorpio (lots of dreams in Scorpio too, and "hiiden things" just like under Neptune), in addition to the watery Pisces-and perhaps a relationship also to Cancer
-Uranus: definitely linked in the literature (Modernist literature) with "air", and thus affinitive with Aquarius, but also possibly with Gemini (especially relative to Gemini's mutable nature), and, maybe, the cardinal air Libra as well?

In our Modernist speculations, could the "fully rounded out" 10 planet system be adapted to what the ancient's called the monomoiria (or degree/planet affinities) to reveal the "hidden connections" involved with each planet's placement? In classical (Greco/Roman) astrology each degree of the ecliptic, starting at 0 Aries, is assigned a planetary affinity: of course they used only the known 7 planets, and the Chaldean Order (starting with the most distant known planet, Saturn); in assigning planets to the degrees of the ecliptic, they began at 0 Aries with Mars, and then followed the Chaldean Order (Mars, then Sun, then Venus, then Mercury, then Moon, then going to Saturn to begin the Order again) Of course, with only 7 planets, this led to certain planets being represented more often than others (Mars especially)
What if (pure hypothesis) a new monomoiria using the 10 planets were applied? Starting with the new "outermost" planet, making a New Chaldean Order (Pluto - Neptune - Uranus - Saturn - Jupiter - Mars - Sun - Venus - Mercury - Moon), and beginning the 360 ecliptic degree circle with Pluto at 0 Aries? Using a 10 planet Chaldean Order, each planet would repeat exactly 36 times in the circle of the zodiacal degrees, with no planet getting an excess number of degree affinities.

Well, I am not proposing anything here, nor advocating anything either; like I said, I think the traditional and classical affinities should be followed as they are, when one is applying traditional or classical astrological models; but I present the above for possible thought by our Modern Astrology friends, and, since I am an eclectic and do use some Modern Astrology concepts myself, and also having been made to "think about" affinities by my study of Modernist author Johndro, I thought I'd just pass along a few of my tentative ideas, here in this post, as possible "food for thought" (by those so inclined!)

Last edited by dr. farr; 08-18-2010 at 07:51 AM.
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Unread 08-18-2010, 03:20 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Originally Posted by weirdconjunctions View Post
what if an outer planet is powerful in your chart?
I don't know what that means. To me a planet is powerful because it holds a lot of dignities and controls the chart.

Jupiter is the Almuten of my chart and in 6 years he makes a conjunction, sextile, square, trine and opposition to all the planets. Uranus takes 87 years to go round and even then, people who live 87 years don't even get a Uranus Return if they were born when Uranus was in one of its Station Cycles.

A Neptune Return is an oxymoron. Right now I have transiting Neptune in Aquarius opposition natal Uranus in Leo, but then so do 100 Million other people, so what's so unique about that?

I don't believe the Outers can run a chart, if for no other reason than they don't often do much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr
What if (pure hypothesis) a new monomoiria using the 10 planets were applied? Starting with the new "outermost" planet, making a New Chaldean Order (Pluto - Neptune - Uranus - Saturn - Jupiter - Mars - Sun - Venus - Mercury - Moon), and beginning the 360 ecliptic degree circle with Pluto at 0 Aries? Using a 10 planet Chaldean Order, each planet would repeat exactly 36 times in the circle of the zodiacal degrees, with no planet getting an excess number of degree affinities.
That would make perfect sense and be far more logical than what is in place now. The Chaldean order is based on planetary speed and the ability to aspect. Mars can't aspect Venus unless he turns retrograde and runs at her with cutlery or something.

On top of that, the Chaldeans used the Sumerian sexigesimal number system of repeating multiples of 10 and 6, so 10, 36 and 360, well that fits right in.

I don't think they really gave much thought to rulerships for the Outers. All of them are basically Saturnian in nature. It's like, "Uranus, you're Saturn, Jr., oh, Neptune, you're Saturn III, and Pluto you're Saturn IV" (I'm paraphrasing Lee Lehman).

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Unread 08-18-2010, 08:16 PM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

I found this conversation extremely interesting, as I've tended to regard the outers differently as well, looking at their aspects only when a personal planet is part of it, since it indicates the ability of that individual to channel that particular energy at a personal way that another person might not.

Anyway, when I've looked at the planetary placements of these in people's charts, I really don't treat the signs in the same way I do for personals (or even Jup/Sat). Houses, yes, but I don't pay nearly as much attention to things like exaltation, ruling, etc., so I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on why various of you don't, as well.
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Unread 08-25-2010, 06:46 AM
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Re: Neptune in Dignity and Debility

Following along with the Modernist speculations I made in my earlier post in this thread, could we allocate the following "dignities" to the outers-not based on any type of "rulership" concept, but rather upon an "elemental affinity" or "elemental resonance" basis?

+Pluto "elementally dignified" in the fiery triplicity of Aries, Leo and Sagittarius
+Neptune "elementally dignified" in the watery triplicity of Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces
+Uranus "elementally dignified" in the airy triplicity of Gemini, Libra and Aquarius

Could we also, possibly, assign "detriments" to the outers as well, based upon dissonance of elemental qualities in the relationship between planet and sign?
For example:

+Pluto "elementally detrimented" in Water signs: Cancer, Scorpio (!), Pisces
+Neptune "elementally detrimented" in Fire signs: Aries, Leo, Sagittarius
+Uranus "elementally detrimented" in Earth signs: Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn


...just food for thought!
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