Will We Divorce?

tsmall

Premium Member
Something else that is really helpful and I think is personally kind of cool, is that the past unity of two people can be seen by the last aspect their significators perfected. Here the last aspect Venus and Mars made was an opposition with Venus at 22° Pisces and Mars at 22° Virgo. There's a lot to unpack in that aspect and the dignities/receptions involved

Question of the day. "Venus in Pisces Opposite Mars in Virgo."

Answer of the day. "Venus in Pisces is exalted, Mars in Virgo is her fall. Oppositions indicate challenge or compromise, but this one would suck. Who's in Sect, and which houses are they in? Venus in Pisces could expect to be treated a certain way, Mars opposing from Virgo sure isn't going to be inclined to give it to her."
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Start with the considerations.

1) Saturn in the 1st usually destroys the matter when Saturn isn’t a primary significator of the question. Let’s, to use waybread’s expression, unpack that. Saturn is exalted in Libra, retrograde and in the ASC. And Saturn rules both the 4th and the 5th, and don’t we already know that the querent was worried about losing her house, and what her children were learning from the situation? Saturn in the 1st destroys the question, yes, but the reason in this instance that it does so is because Saturn is retrograde and exalted in the 1st, and the clearest example in the chart that the significations of the 1st, 4th, and 5th will retrograde back to the querent. In horary terms we call this emplacement.
2) Moon is VoC, which is another consideration, but in this case Moon is void of course for only about two and a little more than a half degrees, at which time the Moon changes signs and moves into moiety of orb with retrograde Mercury. And that aspect is a trine, with Moon colliding (being forced or compelled to do something) with a retrograde planet signifying communication. More on that in a moment.
Immediately looking at this chart, it’s an easy “no.” We have two considerations before judgment, and some will/have automatically called this chart a no answer for those alone. That’s cool, but another reason for posting this chart and this question is…at the time this question was asked by the querent, as far as she was concerned it really wasn’t a matter of if but when, and how. She was seriously all done and looking for the door, and there was nothing standing in her way except for Mars, and a bit of longing for what used to be.

You know how we’ve all seen relationship horary threads/questions, and even some other types of questions, where the querent refuses to accept what the chart is telling them? So they keep asking more questions, and if they are still not satisfied (read that as still not getting the answer that allows their wants/needs in the moment to be granted) they will continue to cast chart after chart, rewording the question or going around the original question hoping that eventually they will get the chart that will “show” them what they want to hear? (Yeah, would y’all stop doing that?) Of course they won’t, and this is the reason why it is sooo important for the astrologer to actually read the chart and be able to explain to the querent why, and what happens next. Because when people have their heart set on something they are not inclined to listen to someone unless that someone can give them a compelling reason to do so.

That said, let’s read the chart, even if we already can say with quite a bit of certainty that we might be looking at a no. (And I’m pretty sure that I’m going to need to divide the delineation into several posts, because it deserves it, and because if you are reading and responding to charts like this after five minutes of looking you really need to go back and revisit your bedside manner.) The biggest reason for no isn’t the considerations before judgment, the biggest reason is what is called rejection, and no one posting to the thread so far is looking at how Mars is in Venus’ fall, and retrograde at that. Heck, we can judge the chart with that aspect alone and don’t even need the rest of the considerations for it. So why are we not looking at the most important part??? Venus in Taurus is strongly dignified, as pointed out, but Venus is seeking a harmonious union (trine) to get what she wants (divorce) with Mars. Mars is in her fall (from exaltation) and she is in his detriment. We call that Mars rejecting what Venus wants. Even without that…well, it would be different if Mars were direct, but his retrograde status means that he cannot accept what Venus is pushing to him (power, nature, and management because Venus is so highly dignified.) There are two times when a planet will return what is being pushed…when that planet is combust, or when that planet is retrograde. Mars in the fall of Venus speaks to the story, as in Mars will reject whatever Venus wants for being in the house that would rather hunt her wishes down and kill them, but Mars retrograde (or any planet retrograde) will always return what is being pushed by the applying planet. The cool thing in this chart is that Venus is dignified enough to be able to deal with the returning…

Let’s read the chart, shall we? Moon is always going to be the co-significator of the querent (notice, NOT co-ruler) and will show the querent’s state of mind. Moon is the sect light but below the horizon, so out of sect in that regard, in feminine sign and quadrant. On a scale, she’s mostly in sect and probably looking to do something that is according to her nature but perhaps inappropriate to the situation. Moon is also in a welled/pitted degree, and lo/behold, we can understand a planet that finds itself in a situation /ditch/hole of its own making and needs help getting out of it. Cypo said Venus had blood on her hands, and I’m all like seriously? What blood, but the reality is, while a bit more benevolent than that, Venus didn’t get here without her own cooperation. She dug her own pit, and now she is looking for a way out of it. So we can stop with the bloody metaphors and understand that life happens to everyone, and watch what we say to people. -.-

Moon is in her own fall from grace, in a ditch she likely dug for herself, and here we have the start of a theme.

Notice too that the Moon is in a fixed sign, of her fall, that is mute and ruled by Mars, and we can see that Moon has no voice that is being listened to. She regards her ruler by sign, but the sextile (intimate) aspect is long separated, with Mars retrograding away from Moon as Moon moves on.

The quesited is co-signified by Sun, and Sun is in Pisces, the 6th house, below the horizon, in feminine sign, and quadrant. Sun is doing something he wouldn’t normally do, something out of character, or something completely inappropriate. Let’s just pick, for the sake of brevity, the last one. Sun is straddling the cusp of the 5th/6th, so whatever he is doing is going to have implications of both houses.

At this point, it would probably be a good idea to explain what Mars/Sun was doing. Mars’ avocation/5th house creative activity wasn’t an affair, it was starting a not-profit, 501(c)3 organization that involved a zoo with small animals (Mars in 12th sign but 11th house) and that was eating every moment of every day of his life…but it sorta gives a different twist on how we look at the houses…

Too be continued…
 
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waybread

Well-known member
So did you divorce or not? :sad: Looks like you are saying "no".

Your depth of chart reading is just brilliant! I wonder how much of the detail changes the answer, even though it may elaborate on it.

Also, the more horary astrology I read, the more I find that the different horary astrologers, both past and present, do not all agree on their methods. And these differences, like the Butterfly's Wing, can lead to different outcomes. A big one is how to read a VOC moon. I've seen big differences in what it represents re: the question, and how it can be treated, if at all, after leaving its sign. Some authors would allow a couple of degrees into the next sign, others not.

I do think that the more one explores the details of a chart, any chart, the more it begins to "sing" for the interpreter. And these details may vary from astrologer to astrologer.

Some horary astrologers will supplement their charts with natal or other charts. Where a divorce is on the table, it would be most interesting to look at the couple's individual charts, synastry, the midpoint composite chart, as well as transits and progressions to them; as these can also shed light on the horary question.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
So did you divorce or not? :sad: Looks like you are saying "no".

Your depth of chart reading is just brilliant! I wonder how much of the detail changes the answer, even though it may elaborate on it.

Not to speak for tsmall, but as I see it, the elaboration is not necessarily about changing the answer. The elaboration is essential in addressing the following:

You know how we’ve all seen relationship horary threads/questions, and even some other types of questions, where the querent refuses to accept what the chart is telling them? So they keep asking more questions, and if they are still not satisfied (read that as still not getting the answer that allows their wants/needs in the moment to be granted) they will continue to cast chart after chart, rewording the question or going around the original question hoping that eventually they will get the chart that will “show” them what they want to hear? (Yeah, would y’all stop doing that?) Of course they won’t, and this is the reason why it is sooo important for the astrologer to actually read the chart and be able to explain to the querent why, and what happens next. Because when people have their heart set on something they are not inclined to listen to someone unless that someone can give them a compelling reason to do so.

That said, let’s read the chart, even if we already can say with quite a bit of certainty that we might be looking at a no.

PS Thank you, tamara, for an excellent thread and for your refined and in depth analysis.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Hi Ilene-- I totally agree with you both about the problem of a querent disliking the first answer, and then going on a prolonged fishing expedition to get the answer she wants. My point was a bit different, that more detail will elaborate on the answer, but probably not change it. A modern horary astrologer, for example, would probably not consider pitted degrees, but would look at modern planets. I think both could produce accurate answers, but take different pathways to get to them.

tsmall, I have to tread carefully in speaking out of line on a relationship I know nothing about, and on an issue as emotionally raw as divorce. But sometimes a wife actually does not want a divorce as Plan A, so much as she wants her spouse to change dramatically. The divorce then is deep-down her Plan B. Since the whole horary chart is basically the querent's universe, I wonder if this is what we are seeing with that weakened Mars retrograde. You mentioned that initially, at least, Venus wanted Mars to return to The Way We Were.

Also, can you say what role Jupiter has been playing?
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
waybread said:
Also, the more horary astrology I read, the more I find that the different horary astrologers, both past and present, do not all agree on their methods. And these differences, like the Butterfly's Wing, can lead to different outcomes. A big one is how to read a VOC moon. I've seen big differences in what it represents re: the question, and how it can be treated, if at all, after leaving its sign. Some authors would allow a couple of degrees into the next sign, others not.

Hi waybread, you know me, so personally I would disregard the way most, if not all, modern horary astrologers treat VOC Moons, because they all do it horribly. There is actually a pretty consistent way that VOC Moons are handled, and that is she is always allowed to complete her next aspect. The Void suggests delay or difficulty, unless the principle significators are strong or she's in the Signs of a benefic (and not Libra).

This is demonstrated several times with Christian Astrology, and Masha'allah's On Reception tells us this in no confusing language.

My point was a bit different, that more detail will elaborate on the answer, but probably not change it.

Definitely agree with you. The idea though is that exploring the chart while having adequate background can give answers to "why or why not" which is basically what querents are looking for. In my experience working professionally, being able to tell people "yes or no" is good, but what they really want to know, what they really come to you for is for answers to why and why not, and what they can do about it.

The sad part is, there are many astrologers, some even on this board, who don't believe horary is capable of this.

Since the whole horary chart is basically the querent's universe, I wonder if this is what we are seeing with that weakened Mars retrograde. You mentioned that initially, at least, Venus wanted Mars to return to The Way We Were.

Bingo!
 

tsmall

Premium Member
So did you divorce or not? :sad: Looks like you are saying "no".

No, there was no divorce. :joyful:

Also, the more horary astrology I read, the more I find that the different horary astrologers, both past and present, do not all agree on their methods. And these differences, like the Butterfly's Wing, can lead to different outcomes.


I think it would be more appropriate, or clear, to say that these differences can lead to different predictions; there can be only one outcome, and if we believe that the chart is always right...that is why it is necessary to look at charts such as this one and practice, practice, practice. And why the richness of these details in the chart is important.

A big one is how to read a VOC moon. I've seen big differences in what it represents re: the question, and how it can be treated, if at all, after leaving its sign. Some authors would allow a couple of degrees into the next sign, others not.

This is one of the places that horary astrologers seem to get hung up so frequently. Moon is void; nothing will come of the matter/question.

There is actually a pretty consistent way that VOC Moons are handled, and that is she is always allowed to complete her next aspect. The Void suggests delay or difficulty, unless the principle significators are strong or she's in the Signs of a benefic (and not Libra).

This is demonstrated several times with Christian Astrology, and Masha'allah's On Reception tells us this in no confusing language.

On another thread a while back I posted a chart that also had Moon VoC for just a couple of degrees before she moved into orb of aspect. And that chart was not a "no."


tsmall, I have to tread carefully in speaking out of line on a relationship I know nothing about, and on an issue as emotionally raw as divorce. But sometimes a wife actually does not want a divorce as Plan A, so much as she wants her spouse to change dramatically. The divorce then is deep-down her Plan B. Since the whole horary chart is basically the querent's universe, I wonder if this is what we are seeing with that weakened Mars retrograde. You mentioned that initially, at least, Venus wanted Mars to return to The Way We Were.

This is a point a friend of mine was trying to make when we were discussing this chart in particular. There is a qualitative difference in a chart about the possible end of a marriage that you wouldn't normally find in run of the mill "will I be with the guy/gal I'm currently crushing on" queries. Here you have an established relationship that is a "thing" in and of itself. Which is one reason why it really isn't necessary to "turn" the chart, as the significations of the houses represent the significations of the marriage houses itself. Turning the chart might reinforce a few details but we shouldn't allow ourselves to get carried away with it. The chart is the marriage.

As to Venus wanted Mars to return to The Way We Were (love that movie!), well, isn't that really what everyone contemplating divorce would like?


Also, can you say what role Jupiter has been playing?

This is a tough one, and I would like to say for the record that the only reason I was able to <possibly> puzzle it out is because I do know what happened next. Frankly, I'm not sure even Lilly or Bonatti could have seen this one...

Several people replying speculated that Jupiter would be some sort of councelor or mediator, and while that does seem logical it isn't what happened. :sideways:

So, who or what is Jupiter? Well, Jupiter rules the chart's 3rd and 6th houses. We already know from the initial "consultation" that Venus' biggest beef is that she isn't being heard; communication is this couple's problem. The Moon is void until she changes signs, suggesting that something about the situation is going to change. And the next sign she moves into is the 3rd sign.

What Venus did next was start a blog. The chart was cast on March 14th and the first post was published on May 7th. It was a tongue in cheek humerous twist on their life from her perspective that also served as an outlet for her frustrations. And while Mars wasn't listenting to Venus, he was reading. Change didn't happen overnight, but a line of communication was established that allowed Mars to see things from Venus' point of view.

What is really, really important in this chart is the Moon's next aspect as that was the true game changer.

Definitely agree with you. The idea though is that exploring the chart while having adequate background can give answers to "why or why not" which is basically what querents are looking for. In my experience working professionally, being able to tell people "yes or no" is good, but what they really want to know, what they really come to you for is for answers to why and why not, and what they can do about it.

The sad part is, there are many astrologers, some even on this board, who don't believe horary is capable of this.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
tsmall said:
What is really, really important in this chart is the Moon's next aspect as that was the true game changer.

Right, even though I tried to divert attention to this multiple times, no one seemed to pick up on this or really even take a stab at it, mostly because the Moon is Void, and that causes a lot of people to shut down. However, like I said above in my response to waybread, the Moon's next aspect is always important, and she is always going to have one.

Before that, though, we knew Jupiter was going to be an interfering planet that was going to mess up the querent's hopes for a divorce, but we weren't really sure how what to pin it on. Tsmall went with the blog interpretation due to Jupiter's rulership of the Third and because she felt it was more appropriate since the conjunction is much more imminent.

While I'm not dismissing that as a valid interpretation, there are some fingers pointing to another house.

Jupiter also rules the Sixth house and the Moon's next aspect is to a planet in the Sixth, so this is the house I'm more interested in exploring because it's signification is being highlighted twice. Knowing the backstory involved, we know that the Sixth house is actually immensely important to this situation and while many people (myself included at first knee jerk) would jump to the Sixth as the house of illness, Jupiter reminds us not to with its location in a four-footed sign, so we're clearly discussing the animals in this chart.

So, Moon's next aspect, what happens next? Many people stopped exploring this noticing the Moon would not complete another aspect before she left her sign, and I've already expressed several times that this is not the appropriate way to handle this. Anyway, the Moon is applying by Trine to Mercury in Aries who rules the Twelfth and Ninth houses. Now we can say a bit about Mercury here being an accidental malefic planet, as it is in a bad house while also ruling a bad house while also being peregrine and retrograde. So seriously corrupted and will be rejecting the Moon when she begins the application in Sagittarius, so seriously corrupted and malefic, and also out for blood, rejecting and acting against the querent's status (because the Moon rules the Tenth).

So, basically what transpires here is a warning to our querent that there are bigger things to worry about. Mercury as lord of the Twelfth signifies hidden enemies in the Sixth house of small animals and after a while of seemingly nothing happening (Void Moon), this aspect suddenly materializes (because of Mercury's retrograde motion typically indicating something quick or sudden) where individuals attempted to claim or rescind the querent's status by seizing the animals. This led to many months of legal trouble, but during the time the husband was unable to focus all of his effort and energies onto his dream of running this non-profit charity, and was able to refocus these resources into his family, which alleviated the divorce issue.

And they all lived happily ever after! Once those bitches got served in court, but that's a chart for another time.
 

waybread

Well-known member
My understanding of a VOC moon is that the current situation is unlikely to change, regardless of whether the question asks for a yes/no or "what will be the outcome?" type of answer.

I have seen VOC moon interpretive guidelines all over the map. Olivia Barclay seemed to use them as strictures against judgment. Others allowed them only if the moon aspected another planet by sign within just a couple of degrees of changing sign.

tsmall, you don't need a bunch of gratuitous advice from Auntie W., so what follows is not to you, but to any young 'uns reading this thread: I believe it divorce is seldom the answer if (a) there are children at home, and (b) the offending spouse isn't violent, philandering, verbally abusive, a substance abuser, incarcerated for a long time, &c, &c.

We really have to consider (as tsmall has done) what is best for the children. They didn't ask to be put on the planet, and the parents owe them the best childhood they can work out. (Not meaning "spoil them rotten".)

Generally, unless Dad (or Mom) isn't safe or healthy to be around, children love both their parents, and joint custody can be nice in theory but logistically troubled in practice. For example, after I separated, I kept the house and my ex moved out: the plan was that our children would stay with me but he would take them out on weekends. Well, on weekends, they wanted to play with their neighborhood friends-- not go off with Dad to the museum or somesuch.

And then we are sooooo idealistic. I think that there is a fine line between idealism as a virtue or a vice. So few couples really stay totally romantic with one another for life. I've seen it happen, but I don't think it's common. Rather, I think marriages have their big ups and downs, but ideally both spouses are civilized adults, and they remain as best friends (ideally with "benefits" but there is a foundational reason for all those Viagra ads on TV.) IMHO a lot of men are the "strong silent type" (read "uncommunicative") but this is why we have friends outside the marriage. (So we have sympathetic conversationalists to talk to.)

Being a single mom with kids at home is enormously difficult, especially if the divorce leaves her with fewer financial resources on top of a full-time job.

(She hums a few bars of, "True love never runs smooth....")
 

tsmall

Premium Member
My understanding of a VOC moon is that the current situation is unlikely to change, regardless of whether the question asks for a yes/no or "what will be the outcome?" type of answer.

That's a fair point, and what makes interpreting a VoC Moon so difficult. At the end of the thread Kai linked to there is another chart. I have added it here for quick reference. In this chart Moon is void but in her current sign comes within orb of opposition to Mercury. The full question for the chart, asked by my daughter, was will the animals come home next week.

I have seen VOC moon interpretive guidelines all over the map. Olivia Barclay seemed to use them as strictures against judgment. Others allowed them only if the moon aspected another planet by sign within just a couple of degrees of changing sign.

I would tend to go with the latter, and I believe Lilly gave a couple of signs in which a Void Moon could still perform. Notice with this divorce chart that the VoC Moon was one indication that the divorce would not happen, but her changing signs indicated that something about the situation was going to change; her next aspect told us what it was. In the animals chart, the Moon loses her void state prior to changing signs. Maybe that chart needs it's own thread...

In any case, the point to be reinforced is that we always want to look to see what the Moon is doing next in the chart for that will tell us what is going to happen next. In this case Kai nailed it, and even I looking back after the fact missed the implications of Mercury as L9 rejecting Moon as L10.

tsmall, you don't need a bunch of gratuitous advice from Auntie W., so what follows is not to you, but to any young 'uns reading this thread: I believe it divorce is seldom the answer if (a) there are children at home, and (b) the offending spouse isn't violent, philandering, verbally abusive, a substance abuser, incarcerated for a long time, &c, &c.

I'm not going to quote your whole post, Auntie W :wink:, but I do agree to a point. This was the dilemma I faced. The flip side of that coin, especially with daughters, was that for a long time the message they were seeing was that my feelings/wants/needs somehow had to be sublimated, ignored, what have you in order to preserve the family unit. I did not want them to grow up believing that they had to be unhappy for the rest of their lives. Not to mention, I didn't want to be unhappy for the rest of my life, lol.

To bring this back to the chart, we all have remarked on how much stronger Venus was than Mars in this chart, and that is one of the keys to understanding it, along with the actual consultation with the client. Venus was powerful enough to bring the matter to perfection on her own. If Jupiter weren't impeding the perfection of the trine, that is probably exactly what would have happened.

Who says astrology doesn't work?

One of the reasons I even brought forth this chart in the first place is because another member pm'd me with the question about how we treat charts such as these, that are esentially negative queries but that have the significators applying to what for all intents and purposes should be a postive aspect? What if the question had been "Will we stay together?" Because it just as easily could have been.

In reflecting long and hard on this, I think the point is not so much that we need to be cautious of reading the question exactly as written/asked, but that as astrologers we need to understand the intent behind the question. If I had asked "will we reconcile" at the same time, the thought behind the question would still have been the same. Because I assure you whole heartedly, at the time I was pressing for a divorce, and Mars was dead set against it.

One other thing I wanted to circle back around to...


Some horary astrologers will supplement their charts with natal or other charts. Where a divorce is on the table, it would be most interesting to look at the couple's individual charts, synastry, the midpoint composite chart, as well as transits and progressions to them; as these can also shed light on the horary question.

Yes, exactly. And wouldn't you know it, there is another thread here that shows I had already been told that I wasn't getting divorced, and the same foreshadowing of events to come was warned of.

Your Profected Ascendant will be Aries, which means your natal 7th House has come to the Profected 1st House. The Year Ruler will be Mars. Your Solar Return has a Sagittarius Ascendant bringing your natal 3rd House to the Ascendant, and Jupiter is Retrograde, in Taurus Cadent in the 6th House and square Mars in the 9th House in Leo.

That will not be pleasant. The following year (2012) your Profected Ascendant is Taurus with Venus as Year Ruler. Once again, your Solar Return has Pisces on the Ascendant with Venus Cadent in Leo the 6th House square Mars in Scorpio in the 9th House. The Solar Return Ascendant Ruler Jupiter will be in Gemini in the 4th House.

But, in 2013 Gemini is your Profected Ascendant making Mercury the Year Ruler. Your Solar Return is Cancer, with Jupiter (Midheaven Ruler) exalted in the 1st House and Mercury as Night Triplicity Ruler Angular in Libra in the 4th House and not impeded by any aspects. Ascendant Ruler Moon will be Cadent in the 12th House and in a trine with Mercury.

You're going to have a difficult time the next several years. Saturn is the Almuten of Marriage in your chart. He is not impeded in any of your Solar Returns. In fact he is Succedent in all 3 charts (Succedent means unchanging) and in Libra the next 2 years and then in your Scorpio 5th House trine the Ascending Degree in the 3rd year (and Saturn is also your Natal Chart Ruler).

Understand this is a superficial first impression look at these charts, but they don't exactly scream "divorce." Your Lot of Marriage is in Taurus which makes Venus the Dispositor, and Venus the Year Ruler is badly impeded in the 2012 Solar Return, but even that doesn't indicate divorce.

His charts don't show the same level of difficulty, but he might have a job problem 2 years from now.

So, here we actually have an horary chart with a specific question that provides more detail yet still confirms the natal chart.
 

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Cap

Well-known member
Right, even though I tried to divert attention to this multiple times, no one seemed to pick up on this or really even take a stab at it, mostly because the Moon is Void, and that causes a lot of people to shut down. However, like I said above in my response to waybread, the Moon's next aspect is always important, and she is always going to have one.

I am confused, do you use any next aspect of the Moon regardless of conditions?

There was opinion that Moon is allowed to complete the conjunction or aspect in the next sign if two planets are within the orb (Lilly used it this way). Some astrologers didn't allow that.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/voc.html

If we use orbs Moon 12 deg., Mercury 7 deg., maximum distance between Moon and Mercury to be within the orb is 9,5 deg. which is not the case in this chart.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Cap said:
I am confused, do you use any next aspect of the Moon regardless of conditions?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "regardless of conditions".

If we use orbs Moon 12 deg., Mercury 7 deg., maximum distance between Moon and Mercury to be within the orb is 9,5 deg. which is not the case in this chart.

Right, that's why she's Void. She's not within orb of her next aspect with another planet.

That's the way Lilly used it as demonstrated with his definition and with the few examples that contained Void or once Void Moons.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I am confused, do you use any next aspect of the Moon regardless of conditions?

There was opinion that Moon is allowed to complete the conjunction or aspect in the next sign if two planets are within the orb (Lilly used it this way). Some astrologers didn't allow that.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/voc.html

If we use orbs Moon 12 deg., Mercury 7 deg., maximum distance between Moon and Mercury to be within the orb is 9,5 deg. which is not the case in this chart.


If I remember correctly, when Moon was in Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius or Pisces Lilly allowed the VOC Moon to continue in the next sign and make aspect. But here Moon is in Scorpio.

Cap, if I may. You are confusing the ability to bring the matter to perfection with what will happen next in the chart.

To answer your question, yes, we always want to look at what the Moon is doing next because that will tell us what is going to happen next, even if the chart is a no. Does that make sense?
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Cap said:
If I remember correctly, when Moon was in Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius or Pisces Lilly allowed the VOC Moon to continue in the next sign and make aspect. But here Moon is in Scorpio.

Tsmall pretty much covered this. The line about the Moon not being impeded in or being able to perform in the Signs of the benefics is about the Moon's ability to bring the matter to perfection. Not about her not being Void in those Signs.
 

Cap

Well-known member
Cap, if I may. You are confusing the ability to bring the matter to perfection with what will happen next in the chart.

To answer your question, yes, we always want to look at what the Moon is doing next because that will tell us what is going to happen next, even if the chart is a no. Does that make sense?

Tsmall pretty much covered this. The line about the Moon not being impeded in or being able to perform in the Signs of the benefics is about the Moon's ability to bring the matter to perfection. Not about her not being Void in those Signs.

Thanks, got it. Yes, what I meant was the ability to bring the matter to perfection, maybe I didn't express myself clearly (English is not my first language).

In fact, I was hoping that KnS found out from practice/experience that any VOC Moon in the next sign can bring the matter to perfection. Now, that would be something!
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
In fact, I was hoping that KnS found out from practice/experience that any VOC Moon in the next sign can bring the matter to perfection. Now, that would be something!

No, unfortunately not. It just makes us reflect on what Void Moons mean in charts; difficulty, delay, impediment, obstacles, etc. We have this idea that Void Moons show "nothing comes of the matter", but that's not the consensus, it just puts the chart into hard mode, so to speak. This is why we're told that the significators need to be strong, because the outcome can still be had, but the querent will need the power and endurance to make it happen that only comes from having well placed significators.

But when it comes to the Moon acting as a storyteller instead of a perfecter, being Void isn't going to stop there being another event which will either calm or excite the question.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Bumping this thread because there are so many newish members trying to learn how to read relationship horaries, and this contains an excellent discourse on the matter.
 

cspencer

Banned
Just to point out some of the salient features for noobs....

After you determine that the chart is radical by examining the hour ruler, you look identify and examine the primary significators, here:

Ascendant at 16 Libra is Via Combusta
Ascendant ruler Venus is in Taurus in a Place of Fear (8th Place)
Moon is in fall in Scorpio and Via Combusta and Void of Course

You people who keep asking the stupid question, "What does s/he feel....?" need to understand such question can never be answered, because that is not what horary does and not what astrology is about.

But you can know the querent's condition, or the matter's condition.

Ascendant and Moon are in the burnt path. What does that tell you about the querent's condition?

The querent is frazzled and at wit's end.

Ascendant ruler Venus in Taurus in the 8th Place. What does that tell you about the querent's condition?

The querent is scared.

The 6th, 8th and 12th Places are places of fear. The 6th is mild timidity. The 8th is fear, and the 12th is fear to the point of being traumatized or scared to do anything at all.

What if this was a thing instead of person? What is the condition of the thing?

The thing is broken down and in very poor condition.

For example, you have a mundane event chart about a plane crash. What do the significators tell you about the plane?

Those parts of the plane signfied by the significators were in bad repair or needing repair. While objects cannot be afraid, they can experience minor failure (6th Place), major failure (8th Place) or catastrophic failure (12rth Place).

The next aspect Moon makes is a trine with retrograde Mercury who is presently stationary. Most of you wouldn't know that Mercury is conjunct his own node at 5°Aries. A Planet conjunct its own node is the same as the Lights being conjunct the Moon's nodes.

Moon's fall point is 3° Scorpio so you can estimate that at 26° Scorpio, querent has been in this condition for about 2 years now, and so it isn't something that just suddenly came about.

So, we have all of that, and we haven't even gotten to the Venus/Mars trine.

The triplicity scheme I use has Venus, Saturn and Mercury as Earth rulers. so Venus would reluctantly receive retrograde Mars.

Anyway, it would help to focus more on the condition of the significators before looking at aspects.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
The triplicity scheme I use has Venus, Saturn and Mercury as Earth rulers. so Venus would reluctantly receive retrograde Mars.


I am unfamiliar with this rulership scheme. Is this something historical or something you've developed?

Edit...so this is Morin's triplicity rulership?
 
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