Good vs Evil

Satine

Well-known member
Several interesting things here I'd like to comment on....

Satine: Think not in terms of "aspects" but in terms of "configuration". Note how Dr. Farr uses the word "configuration" in his original reply to your thread*. Look to the Whole Chart and you may see mental illness (although the chart does not necessarily proclaim this in 48pt. Boldface type.) [*"I can't really think of a more "evil" configuration, than this-which certainly fits as characterizing the most devastating and epoch changing war in recorded history."]

Birch Dragon: My personal viewpoint is this: Most of mankind, with very few exceptions, is bound by fate to be what the Cosmic requiires at the Moment. I see the horoscope as the "graphic representation" of a Moment in spacetime. I see the person represented by that horoscope as the Moment made Manifest (The Spirit made Flesh.) This Moment has purpose, and sometimes the purpose appears "evil" or negative to us; but the purpose must be fulfilled.

Consider what Paul says: "Nay but, O man who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" (Rom. 9: 20-21)

And to this I would add more words from Victor Frankl: “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”

Satine, that is not sad. It is nobility.

Yes that is nobility.
 

Satine

Well-known member
The Root of many suffering is being overly stubborn over between the Good and Evil that leads to judgement, being judgmental then becoming blind and deaf and harden in heart. As you will only see the wrong of the other party but failed to see your own. But then if you focus on seeing your own wrong and also becoming blind, deaf and harden in heart, you also suffer from failing to see your own good.

The only fact is that there is always two sided of the stories, you can always see positives from negatives and negatives from positives. Over time, in the course of time, both Good and Evil are the same. To see the picture at large, everything diffused, while in smaller picture right now, we seem to see black and white, but we often lack of awareness, everything runs in both directions at the same time and no actual boundaries to separate both. If you pay attention to observe.

This is very true.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Discovery of Penicillin alone had saved far more lives then those died in WWII, you and I most likely won't be able to live pass 30s without the discovery of Penicillin. Penicillin was only fully used because of War then the effects of antibiotic was confirmed.
Certainly 'the evil of War' can have 'good medicinal' results :smile:

Interesting also that
due to overuse/incorrect use,
antibiotics
including penicillin
may no longer work against MRSA

QUOTE

'....MRSA stands for methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus. The term is used to describe a number of strains of the bacteria, Staphylococcus aureus, that are resistant to a number of antibiotics, including methicillin.

What is Staphylococcus aureus?


Staphylococcus aureus is a group of bacteria that live on the surface of people's skin and inside the nose. It is normally harmless: most people who are carrying it are totally unaware that they have it. In fact, it is thought that up to 30% of the general UK population carries these bacteria in their nose or on their skin.

This group of bacteria can be spread quite easily from person to person through contact...'
 

poyi

Premium Member
Certainly 'the evil of War' can have 'good medicinal' results :smile:

Interesting also that
due to overuse/incorrect use,
antibiotics
including penicillin
may no longer work against MRSA

QUOTE

'....MRSA stands for methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus. The term is used to describe a number of strains of the bacteria, Staphylococcus aureus, that are resistant to a number of antibiotics, including methicillin.

What is Staphylococcus aureus?


Staphylococcus aureus is a group of bacteria that live on the surface of people's skin and inside the nose. It is normally harmless: most people who are carrying it are totally unaware that they have it. In fact, it is thought that up to 30% of the general UK population carries these bacteria in their nose or on their skin.

This group of bacteria can be spread quite easily from person to person through contact...'

Yes in long run, there is no absolute Good or absolute Evil. Each leads to one another, just a cycle of life and I also see North node/South node the same way.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
IMO, astrology is not a black or white issue.

Its about what your life has provided to you to solve. You can't compare charts calling one person evil and one person good.

If your chart is much harder than your neighbor's does that mean that you are more evil.

I'm not willing to go there.

Adolf Hitler's chart shows where he could have turned things around and dealt with his issues positively. Albert Sweitzer's chart also shows where he could have not turned things around and gone in the other direction. Its all about free will, not fate.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Good and Evil are relative terms

For example we do not know of good actions Hitler did in his life
similarly we do not know of bad actions Gandhi did in his life
:smile:
 

poyi

Premium Member
Good and Evil are relative terms

For example we do not know of good actions Hitler did in his life
similarly we do not know of bad actions Gandhi did in his life
:smile:

Exactly, Hitler was a good man to his lover. Everyone has their own dark side and light side. The delusion is we too often assuming a person is good or bad, while in the actual case, is mostly good or decided to suppress the evil side and how good at suppressing that side. In my opinion, is to be honest about your own both side of identities then you can reach enlightenment and shall not suffer from either sides by being overly obsessed, attached, and stubborn of that side of the identity.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Exactly, Hitler was a good man to his lover. Everyone has their own dark side and light side. The delusion is we too often assuming a person is good or bad, while in the actual case, is mostly good or decided to suppress the evil side and how good at suppressing that side. In my opinion, is to be honest about your own both side of identities then you can reach enlightenment and shall not suffer from either sides by being overly obsessed, attached, and stubborn of that side of the identity.
Good and Evil relativity is highlighted when noting that George W Bush is now officially a War Criminal
Bush cannot travel abroad for fear of being arrested
yet not many Americans would consider the Bush Administration as War Criminals :smile:

QUOTE

'…..Former U.S. President George W. Bush recently dedicated his Presidential Library in Dallas. Ceremony included speeches by President Obama, ex-President Bush, and every living ex-president. But none of the speeches so much as mentioned Iraq war the undertaking that dominated George W. Bush’s presidency, and will define his historic legacy. This omission might be due to the fact that Mr. Bush is now a convicted war criminal who dares not travel abroad out of fear of being arrested.

In February 2011, Bush was forced to cancel a scheduled appearance in Geneva, Switzerland after human rights groups filed a criminal complaint charging him with violating international treaties against torture......'

QUOTE

'...His trouble increased dramatically a year ago when Bush - and former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and several other top Bush administration officials - were convicted of war crimes in absentia by a special war crimes tribunal in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal was convened and conducted according to internationally recognized procedures and rules of evidence. The week-long hearing ended with five-member panel unanimously delivering guilty verdicts.

Is the verdict legally binding? Are there troublesome aspects to the idea that a foreign tribunal can sit in judgment of a U.S. President whatever we may think of his actions?...' SOURCE http://www.globalresearch.ca/bush-a...ar-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity/5336860
 

greybeard

Well-known member
But Hitler did not, nor did Schweitzer.

Could it be that a power superior to the personal will (even if it be only that the innate character inclines a person toward one thing, away from another) intervenes?

What could have been but was not, never was. Unfulfilled potential is nothing. It is pure speculation, conjecture, wool-gathering to say "Hitler could have been...." If the Art Academy had accepted him, he might have become Europe's leading postcard illustrator. But they did not, and it embittered him. He was a psychopath (it is seen in his chart), and I doubt that any other path but the one he followed was possible for him.

The fact of the matter is that Hitler precipitated a horribly destructive (but historically necessary) war. That is fact, not speculation. The experiences he encountered plowed the field, the circumstances surrounding him sowed the seed, and his innate character yielded the fruit. I think it could not have been otherwise, and indeed was part of the cosmic plan.

It seems to me we keep ourselves blissfully unaware of the rather savage character of nature. We don't like pain, suffering, hardship...and so we tend to deny their existence and their necessity, and wail and gnash our teeth when they intrude upon our personal Eden, our little world of blissful ignorance. But big fish eat little fish. Asteroids kill almost all life on Earth. Diseases ravage populations. And men are cruel to each other. Suffering is part and parcel of life, and in fact is a necessary element. Without it we would never make the effort to improve our lot either materially or spiritually. A wise French chef once noted that you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

As Frankl said, the last of the human freedoms, the one that remains when all else has gone by the board, is the freedom to choose one's attitude. Free will resides there.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I too share the fundamental outlook (with Zarathu, Poyi, Greybeard) that ultimately there is free will (regarding choices and attitudes) and that individual insight, coupled with will, has the POTENTIAL of overcoming "fate"-hence I also stand on the non-fatalistic side of the argument....
 

Satine

Well-known member
But Hitler did not, nor did Schweitzer.

Could it be that a power superior to the personal will (even if it be only that the innate character inclines a person toward one thing, away from another) intervenes?

What could have been but was not, never was. Unfulfilled potential is nothing. It is pure speculation, conjecture, wool-gathering to say "Hitler could have been...." If the Art Academy had accepted him, he might have become Europe's leading postcard illustrator. But they did not, and it embittered him. He was a psychopath (it is seen in his chart), and I doubt that any other path but the one he followed was possible for him.

The fact of the matter is that Hitler precipitated a horribly destructive (but historically necessary) war. That is fact, not speculation. The experiences he encountered plowed the field, the circumstances surrounding him sowed the seed, and his innate character yielded the fruit. I think it could not have been otherwise, and indeed was part of the cosmic plan.

It seems to me we keep ourselves blissfully unaware of the rather savage character of nature. We don't like pain, suffering, hardship...and so we tend to deny their existence and their necessity, and wail and gnash our teeth when they intrude upon our personal Eden, our little world of blissful ignorance. But big fish eat little fish. Asteroids kill almost all life on Earth. Diseases ravage populations. And men are cruel to each other. Suffering is part and parcel of life, and in fact is a necessary element. Without it we would never make the effort to improve our lot either materially or spiritually. A wise French chef once noted that you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

As Frankl said, the last of the human freedoms, the one that remains when all else has gone by the board, is the freedom to choose one's attitude. Free will resides there.

just out of curiosity, what in his chart showed that he was a psychopath? Are there aspects that give clues to mental illness or different personality disorders?I don't know if my ex husband is a psychopath or sociopath, but I do believe he has some kind of personality disorder. He seems narcissistic. It would be interesting to see if he had any signs in his chart.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
You have to look at the chart as a whole.

I don't like to say that Aspect Thus and So shows a psychopath..... It's not always true.

But with Hitler there is stuff all over the chart, that when it's put together adds up.

The way that I determine such things (and I lack knowledge and training in psychiatry...but some things you can judge reasonably well) is to learn the traits that characterize a certain "condition", then see if the chart shows those conditions. I do not rely on any particular aspects.

For example, a while ago I opened a thread I think I titled "Accident Prone". This is a friend of mine who is an accident in perpetual motion, one thing after another and destroying his body. I use an old Psychiatric Dictionary and it spells out the common traits of folks who tend to be accident prone, and this guy's chart meets all the criteria...and his life shows the diagnosis to be correct, in spades. If you're interested, click my handle above this post, then do a couple more clicks until you find "All Threads started by greybeard"....then scroll down and find "Accident Prone". It should give you a general idea of how to find whatever sort of psychological (or other type) condition interests you.

In Hitler's chart, we can start with the very prominent opposition of Mercury to Uranus....right across the horizon, both angular. Of itself this does NOT say psychopath. But it is one element. The "short circuit" conjunction of Venus and Mars is another. Mars squares Saturn. And the conjunction of Moon and Jupiter (indicating an overprotective mother, and "being spoiled") coupled with a brutal father (Mars-Saturn) can lead to a sadistic mentality.

But none of the above aspects, taken alone, shows psychopathy. But you put them together, they do. It requires a "feel" for weighing things, adding things up. Not a good idea to rely on some single aspect to predict a particular condition in any chart. Proceed with care. You need to understand the deeper, more subtle, significance of aspects, and also learn to "read between the lines" as far as descriptions of the aspects go.

As an example, I have Venus trine Jupiter in my own chart. Read a cookbook and I should be at least somewhat popular and encouraged socially, be at least comfortable financially, and have a nice wife....and none of these things are true. But if you look closely at my chart you can see why. And...this is the hard part....the "promise" of this trine IS true, but not at all in the way the cookbooks say. And that is what I mean about understanding the meanings of aspects on a more subtle level, understanding the true meaning of the symbolism.

If you don't know the characteristics of the psychopathic personality, the documentary film on Youtube called "The Corporation" provides a check-list according to the WHO of the UN...and the film is interesting of itself, if a bit long.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Venus (retrograde and in the 8th whole sign house under Taurus, exactly conjunct Mars) is both lord of the ascendant and grand (or ultimate) dispositor of all componets of Hitler's natal chart: Venus, at 22:54 North declination, is within 5 minutes of exact parallel with Hamal, which gives..."headstrong and often aggressive yet...capable leaders and protectors of their community...(Morse)"...and..."if Mars or VENUS are linked...sadism is indicated...(Ebertin)"...and..."violence, brutishness, cruelty and premeditated crime...(Robson)"...
Venus as grand dispositor of the chart channels Hamal into the horoscope, affecting all elements of that horoscope via the ultimate dispositorship by Venus of all elements of this chart.
 

Satine

Well-known member
You have to look at the chart as a whole.

I don't like to say that Aspect Thus and So shows a psychopath..... It's not always true.

But with Hitler there is stuff all over the chart, that when it's put together adds up.

The way that I determine such things (and I lack knowledge and training in psychiatry...but some things you can judge reasonably well) is to learn the traits that characterize a certain "condition", then see if the chart shows those conditions. I do not rely on any particular aspects.

For example, a while ago I opened a thread I think I titled "Accident Prone". This is a friend of mine who is an accident in perpetual motion, one thing after another and destroying his body. I use an old Psychiatric Dictionary and it spells out the common traits of folks who tend to be accident prone, and this guy's chart meets all the criteria...and his life shows the diagnosis to be correct, in spades. If you're interested, click my handle above this post, then do a couple more clicks until you find "All Threads started by greybeard"....then scroll down and find "Accident Prone". It should give you a general idea of how to find whatever sort of psychological (or other type) condition interests you.

In Hitler's chart, we can start with the very prominent opposition of Mercury to Uranus....right across the horizon, both angular. Of itself this does NOT say psychopath. But it is one element. The "short circuit" conjunction of Venus and Mars is another. Mars squares Saturn. And the conjunction of Moon and Jupiter (indicating an overprotective mother, and "being spoiled") coupled with a brutal father (Mars-Saturn) can lead to a sadistic mentality.

But none of the above aspects, taken alone, shows psychopathy. But you put them together, they do. It requires a "feel" for weighing things, adding things up. Not a good idea to rely on some single aspect to predict a particular condition in any chart. Proceed with care. You need to understand the deeper, more subtle, significance of aspects, and also learn to "read between the lines" as far as descriptions of the aspects go.

As an example, I have Venus trine Jupiter in my own chart. Read a cookbook and I should be at least somewhat popular and encouraged socially, be at least comfortable financially, and have a nice wife....and none of these things are true. But if you look closely at my chart you can see why. And...this is the hard part....the "promise" of this trine IS true, but not at all in the way the cookbooks say. And that is what I mean about understanding the meanings of aspects on a more subtle level, understanding the true meaning of the symbolism.

If you don't know the characteristics of the psychopathic personality, the documentary film on Youtube called "The Corporation" provides a check-list according to the WHO of the UN...and the film is interesting of itself, if a bit long.
That's interesting. Would you mind looking at my ex's chart and giving me your overall impression?

http://tinypic.com/r/suu995/5
 

Satine

Well-known member
Well Hitler did love animals and was a vegetarian.

Lol my ex loves animals more than people. When I was 8 and a half months pregnant I got to the point that I could no longer care for my children(1 and 3) and my giant dog(a pyrenees/lab mix) at the same time by myself. So I told him either he could take our dog or I had found a mutual friend who was willing to. He told me that I was disgusting because you, "Don't abandon family." He was upset about the dog but had no problem abandoning me.
 
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Satine

Well-known member
Venus (retrograde and in the 8th whole sign house under Taurus, exactly conjunct Mars) is both lord of the ascendant and grand (or ultimate) dispositor of all componets of Hitler's natal chart: Venus, at 22:54 North declination, is within 5 minutes of exact parallel with Hamal, which gives..."headstrong and often aggressive yet...capable leaders and protectors of their community...(Morse)"...and..."if Mars or VENUS are linked...sadism is indicated...(Ebertin)"...and..."violence, brutishness, cruelty and premeditated crime...(Robson)"...
Venus as grand dispositor of the chart channels Hamal into the horoscope, affecting all elements of that horoscope via the ultimate dispositorship by Venus of all elements of this chart.

Interesting.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Venus is far too strongly emphasized in Hitler's chart.

It's not my business, and I don't know your circumstances...

But I think it would be a good idea to let your Ex live in Texas while you hang your hat in Tennessee. Obsessing over a lost past does not make for a bright future. Let go.
 

Birch Dragon

Well-known member
Interesting posts! And in the spirit of interesting, friendly discussion... can I throw something into the mix that winds up, I think, pushing towards Zarathu's position.

Generally I think it's a mistake, even a dangerous mistake, to focus on Hitler as a kind of uniquely monstrous figure - the exemplar of evil - when Hitler was in no way alone in his beliefs and activities, nor was he the clear and simple "cause" of any of the evils we associate with him: Nazism, the Holocaust, WWII. And I say this fully admitting that I was the one who introduced him into this thread as an exemplar of evil in the first place :crying:!!! (There's actually a thread floating around this website on Hitler's chart...) I realize this is a common way of thinking about Hitler but it can quickly become problematic.
Hitler, of course, sat on the vanguard of all those evils. But not a one of them would have actually manifest if it wasn't for a whole set of social conditions out of which this evil could fester, without a legion of other human beings equally invested in the ideas and acts, and without the collaboration, or at least complicity, of innumerable (not all) citizens. The Holocaust could not have happened if anti-semitism wasn't deeply rooted in Europe. WWII might not have happened had the Germans not resented the outcome of WWI. Hitler would have had no power, no say, no means to be involved in such evils if not for an entourage, a party, an army, and thousands of little Eichmanns to man the bureaucracy and pull the levers in the gas chambers. For portraits of individual evil it seems to me we'd have to look at people like serial killers - capable of destroying individual lives but nothing like the wave of evil that swamped Europe in the 1930s and 40s.

The point, or maybe the question: if a natal chart clearly indicates a kind of moral fate, shouldn't we see the same evil we see in Hitler's chart show up in the charts of thousands of Germans who eventually developed, defended, lived and died for Nazism? Shouldn't the natal charts of thousands of little Eichmann's born in Germany at the time indicate that they are destined to collaborate with the coming evil? How does this work... And why wouldn't the charts of those born at the same time in France (not exactly the same, but very similar) not show the same destiny?

I certainly haven't come to any conclusions on questions of fate vs. free will in life. I like the kind of discussion going on over on Greybeard's The Future Already exists thread. (I like the discussion going on here, too!) But I have to admit I think there's lots of reason to think the answer Zarathu gave earlier makes a great deal of sense.
 
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