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  #1  
Unread 08-05-2016, 05:24 PM
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Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

Sooner or later, divinators (particularly astrologers) run into this quandary about fate versus free will. Many opinions exist, including:

1. Everything is predestined;
2. Not everything is predestined, hence the relevance of Remedials and personal efforts;
3. Different nativities depending on their development (of soul) have differing degrees of expression of fate and free will, subject to dashas and transits etc.


Your thoughts please…

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Unread 08-05-2016, 06:36 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

People create their own fates. Done.
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Unread 08-06-2016, 10:28 AM
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  #4  
Unread 08-06-2016, 01:40 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

That's the way I see it, too. From the human perspective, you can't tell the difference. That's why there's endless debates about this subject. It can't be resolved logically by the intellect. From the impersonal perspective, however, which is prior to the intellect, neither free will nor predestination are real. They are seen for what they are, mere mental concepts, a framework for the mind. That's all.

And astrology works fine with both concepts. Where it may get problematic is when you try to mix predestination with free will. Then you get a new dilemma, you have to ascertain how much of your life is the result of predestination and how much is the result of free will. Which will lead to endless debates again because it can't be resolved logically.

The way this issue is resolved is not by finding the correct answer but by seeing thru the premise on which it is all built. The issue has to be seen clearly for what it is. And the logical mind is of no help here. But when it has been seen clearly that the very premise of the question is already flawed, then the issue will just disappear and never come up again.

So in short, it's a non-issue.
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Unread 08-07-2016, 12:04 PM
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I agree with 1. Everything is predestined
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Unread 08-07-2016, 04:48 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

I think if something is destined for you, its going to happen. May be during the right transits or might be its going to bloom late but if you were destined for certain things in life, I think its going to manifest. All while the process may be slow.

Free will is the crux of human life but I do have a belief that planets act in tandem to affect your mind (both positive and negative) and thus the mind starts thinking in a 'certain way' & then the man starts to act to achieve what was in his mind (that certain way leads to the attainment of what was destined)...

It's just a personal perspective from a personal experience.
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Unread 08-07-2016, 10:05 PM
Julia Karmic Astrology Julia Karmic Astrology is offline
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

In karmic astrology, we believe that Earth is a free will planet.
People have the choice to use the energy as shown in the natal chart for good or ill.
This is how we make our own karma.

If this were not the case, then the whole notion of karma would make no sense.
What is the point of karma, soul growth, karmic debts and credits, if we are on a totally pre-ordained course? How can a soul grow, evolve, learn if someone else is pulling the strings?

That said, I do believe that some souls incarnate with a specific destiny to fulfill as a gift to mankind.
But even these souls can chose not to proceed with the plan.

Julia
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Unread 08-08-2016, 12:35 AM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

Nothing is predestined but there are high and low odds for most people. For example, me and my brother. From what I have been told, I was a very noisy, energetic, loud baby. According to my mother I was the loudest baby in the hospital. As a baby, when I woke up in the middle of the night, I was crying so loud it was impossible for my parents to continue sleeping. So for a baby like this, being rebellious, fighting with other boys, being physical, blunt and cruel are high odds. My ascendant is Aries and my Mars in Leo by the way.

My little brother is my polar opposite. He was the most well-behaving, silent, always smiling baby ever with red chubby cheeks and innocent big eyes of his. So for someone like this high odds are then being sensitive, getting bullied (including by big brother), being a good hardworking student etc.

At school, as a kid, with way more energy then I can control I struggled. In fact I didn't give a **** about school. If I tried and failed, that would be a struggle, I simply didn't give a ****. I was totally, completely overwhelmingly under the effects of this high voltage, sparkling, very very impulsive mood, I simply wasn't thinking, I simply didn't think future, I never been a worrier, I always lived in now and I still am.

Now, you can use this excessive energy in many different ways. You can continue being a tramp all your life, you can study martial arts, You can be a soldier, you can be an olympic athlete, join the gang and sell drugs and get into gun fights and die or be a cop and kill those very gang members!

And if you were my brother, you could fall in depression thinking you fail as a man, You just don't have that masculine, careless, risktaking energy, you worry like a girl, you read what's in this chocolate and if there's fructose in it you wouldn't eat it, you would produce dang load of stupid habits and pet peeves because You are just not in peace with yourself or You could accept this low, rather feminine (He is a pisces) energy, be good, be nice, be friendly, be tolerant, be humble but no, if you insist and try to be your big brother then you fall into this complex, your soul and your persona always fight with each other.

Good, knowlegable parents could see where these kids were going (psychologically) and guide them and teach them how to deal with themselves.

Astrology is not just your natal chart. There are transits, there are other people's charts, there's synastry between their charts and yours, your chart might suck, some other person's chart ***** harder, so there you go even though your chart sucked you dominated that super sucker.

Last edited by abraxas; 08-08-2016 at 12:38 AM.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 12:40 AM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

I personally tend to believe that some things are fated. No matter how or what, it is meant to happen and unavoidable. With that said, I think free will plays an important part as well. Just because your charts says something bad or good, we cannot go on believing that it will definitely happen and not work towards or against it happening.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 01:26 AM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

I would agree with number 3. It depends. Some have more free will than others and it depends on karma.
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  #11  
Unread 08-08-2016, 01:40 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

I think #3 is the most reasonable option from the standard human perspective.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 03:50 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

I tend to agree with number three, and I like what RaRohini wrote. Certain karmas can be mitigated (or possibly avoided), while others are very difficult to avoid. Fate and free will are closely linked. So, it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. According to Sri Yukteswar, 75% of a person's life is fated -- which means that it can be seen in the horoscope (It is astrologically indicated). The remaining 25% of a person's life is not seen in the horoscope and this portion could be called "free will." But what if "transcending karma" or "using free will" is ultimately fate?

Most astrologers who claim 100% free will have not closely studied Vedic astrology, and they have rarely studied more traditional forms of Western astrology (Hellenistic, Renaissance Astrology). It's usually the modern, psychological astrologers who like to emphasize complete free will. Astrology's very foundation is based on a type of determinism that produces predictable results. Of course, any aspect, placement, or transit can produce a range of phenomena from low to high, so some flux exists within the general manifestation.

But possibility does not equal probability. Can a 80-year old man become an Olympic gymnast? Can someone with a low IQ achieve a top score on the LSAT? Can an American-born citizen become the President of France? The probability of these events occurring is highly unlikely. People cannot become anything they want to be. We are all subject to the limitations of time and space. I believe people have the ability to make choices within the confines of their path. Becoming immune to transits, dashas, and progressions is the realm of the enlightened masters, if it is possible at all.

Last edited by carpediem; 08-08-2016 at 04:16 PM.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 08:35 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
In karmic astrology, we believe that Earth is a free will planet.
People have the choice to use the energy as shown in the natal chart for good or ill.
This is how we make our own karma.

If this were not the case, then the whole notion of karma would make no sense.
What is the point of karma, soul growth, karmic debts and credits, if we are on a totally pre-ordained course? How can a soul grow, evolve, learn if someone else is pulling the strings?

That said, I do believe that some souls incarnate with a specific destiny to fulfill as a gift to mankind.
But even these souls can chose not to proceed with the plan.

Julia
I think it's 50-50. Past Karma will also play a role in this present lifetime and that probably cannot be avoided because if karma is true then we all will have to undergo the deeds of the past whether good or bad.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 10:17 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

After reading this thread, I feel like I have no control over my life.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 10:24 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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Originally Posted by London89 View Post
I think it's 50-50. Past Karma will also play a role in this present lifetime and that probably cannot be avoided because if karma is true then we all will have to undergo the deeds of the past whether good or bad.
But then there are those who opine from *high* vantages that in those realms linear time (past etc.) does not exist, it being a product of maya-illusion in the mundane realm of 'non-issues' <LOL>
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Unread 08-09-2016, 02:00 AM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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Originally Posted by carpediem View Post
I tend to agree with number three, and I like what RaRohini wrote. Certain karmas can be mitigated (or possibly avoided), while others are very difficult to avoid. Fate and free will are closely linked. So, it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. According to Sri Yukteswar, 75% of a person's life is fated -- which means that it can be seen in the horoscope (It is astrologically indicated). The remaining 25% of a person's life is not seen in the horoscope and this portion could be called "free will." But what if "transcending karma" or "using free will" is ultimately fate?

Most astrologers who claim 100% free will have not closely studied Vedic astrology, and they have rarely studied more traditional forms of Western astrology (Hellenistic, Renaissance Astrology). It's usually the modern, psychological astrologers who like to emphasize complete free will. Astrology's very foundation is based on a type of determinism that produces predictable results. Of course, any aspect, placement, or transit can produce a range of phenomena from low to high, so some flux exists within the general manifestation.

But possibility does not equal probability. Can a 80-year old man become an Olympic gymnast? Can someone with a low IQ achieve a top score on the LSAT? Can an American-born citizen become the President of France? The probability of these events occurring is highly unlikely. People cannot become anything they want to be. We are all subject to the limitations of time and space. I believe people have the ability to make choices within the confines of their path. Becoming immune to transits, dashas, and progressions is the realm of the enlightened masters, if it is possible at all.


Hello,

Very correctly said, I feel!
Certain parts above highlighted by me are really well said.

I would like to add that if 75% is astrology, there are other very deterministic divinations like palmistry, numerology & others'; thebalance may be unexplained/unseen.
After experiencing the 3 divinations well, I an only state that none of them individually are complete! which goes to imply that out of the other 25% as you mentioned which cannot be explained by astrology, there are other divinatory tools too (even besides the 3 I dabble in).



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Last edited by RishiRahul; 08-09-2016 at 04:16 AM.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 12:33 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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Originally Posted by London89 View Post
I think it's 50-50. Past Karma will also play a role in this present lifetime and that probably cannot be avoided because if karma is true then we all will have to undergo the deeds of the past whether good or bad.
Right, the broader your view, the greater the degree of freedom you have, the narrower your view, the lesser the degree of freedom you have. If the context we are talking about is just this one life with this specific body/mind then the '75% fated' rule seems to be correct. And if it wouldn't ,then astrology wouldn't work or be meaningless. But as soon as we don't limit our identity to this one personal perspective alone and introduce the concept of reincarnation, we'll have to add a higher degree of freedom. And if we don't let our identity limit by reincarnation either, then from the soul/entity perspective there is indeed 100% free will. And if we go even beyond that, then both free will and fate lose their meaning and the issue disappears.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 12:41 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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After reading this thread, I feel like I have no control over my life.
I hear ya! Just keep in mind that life works just fine without astrology. None of that knowledge is required in order to become happy, wealthy and wise.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 01:12 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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Originally Posted by RishiRahul View Post
Hello,

Very correctly said, I feel!
Certain parts above highlighted by me are really well said.

I would like to add that if 75% is astrology, there are other very deterministic divinations like palmistry, numerology & others'; thebalance may be unexplained/unseen.
After experiencing the 3 divinations well, I an only state that none of them individually are complete! which goes to imply that out of the other 25% as you mentioned which cannot be explained by astrology, there are other divinatory tools too (even besides the 3 I dabble in).



RishiRahul
The way I see it, fate and (pre)determinism are not the same. Predetermination means that everything has been decided in advance. Which would also require an ultimate decider/planner which then brings us into another ontological dilemma. Fate just means that events follow/evolve according to a certain order. That order is Law of Attraction. Apart from that everything happens spontaneously.

So let's say you throw a ball. That ball, as soon as you let it go is going to follow a certain trajectory which can be calculated in advance and as soon as that ball is in the air you won't be able to change that trajectory. We could say that trajectory is fated. However, when you throw that ball, how fast and therefore how far you throw that ball, into what direction you throw that ball or if you throw that ball at all is not predetermined and therefore cannot be calculated in advance. All we can say is that there's a lot of potential and possibilities for someone who has a ball in his hands and based on our previous performances maybe even a lot of probabilities can be seen and predictions being made. Similar with astrology and all those other tools.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
The way I see it, fate and (pre)determinism are not the same. Predetermination means that everything has been decided in advance. Which would also require an ultimate decider/planner which then brings us into another ontological dilemma. Fate just means that events follow/evolve according to a certain order. That order is Law of Attraction. Apart from that everything happens spontaneously.

So let's say you throw a ball. That ball, as soon as you let it go is going to follow a certain trajectory which can be calculated in advance and as soon as that ball is in the air you won't be able to change that trajectory. We could say that trajectory is fated. However, when you throw that ball, how fast and therefore how far you throw that ball, into what direction you throw that ball or if you throw that ball at all is not predetermined and therefore cannot be calculated in advance. All we can say is that there's a lot of potential and possibilities for someone who has a ball in his hands and based on our previous performances maybe even a lot of probabilities can be seen and predictions being made. Similar with astrology and all those other tools.
Fate is our deepest soul desire manifesting itself on the physical plane..
Whew !! ... time for a coffee 😃
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Unread 08-09-2016, 03:07 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
The way I see it, fate and (pre)determinism are not the same. Predetermination means that everything has been decided in advance. Which would also require an ultimate decider/planner which then brings us into another ontological dilemma. Fate just means that events follow/evolve according to a certain order. That order is Law of Attraction. Apart from that everything happens spontaneously.

So let's say you throw a ball. That ball, as soon as you let it go is going to follow a certain trajectory which can be calculated in advance and as soon as that ball is in the air you won't be able to change that trajectory. We could say that trajectory is fated. However, when you throw that ball, how fast and therefore how far you throw that ball, into what direction you throw that ball or if you throw that ball at all is not predetermined and therefore cannot be calculated in advance. All we can say is that there's a lot of potential and possibilities for someone who has a ball in his hands and based on our previous performances maybe even a lot of probabilities can be seen and predictions being made. Similar with astrology and all those other tools.

Then why is that one can tell the difference between fate and free will?

The ball story= once he ball has been thrown it is thrown.
Supposing that if it is not thrown or something else can be remote thinking too.

What if the basic nature of the person & how the emotion & environment affecting was already calculated as a complex mathematical matrix & arrived at?

Maybe most would hate the idea, while a rare few would tolerate or accept it. But the normal mind is comfortable with the easier or soothing belef...

RishiRahul

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Unread 08-10-2016, 03:29 AM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

This question on freewill has been agitating minds for centuries.
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Unread 08-10-2016, 03:01 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by RishiRahul View Post
Then why is that one can tell the difference between fate and free will?

The ball story= once he ball has been thrown it is thrown.
Supposing that if it is not thrown or something else can be remote thinking too.

What if the basic nature of the person & how the emotion & environment affecting was already calculated as a complex mathematical matrix & arrived at?

Maybe most would hate the idea, while a rare few would tolerate or accept it. But the normal mind is comfortable with the easier or soothing belef...

RishiRahul

RishiRahul
Well, that's what I was saying earlier, from a mere intellectual position you can't tell the difference between a world where free will rules and a world where everything (including thoughts and emotions) is predetermined. So you can't solve that issue intellectually.

Anyway, this issue only arises when reflective thinking is dominant. When you are fully immersed in the here and now as it happens in flow or samadhi then there's no room for such thoughts. There's only acting. The question if you are the one who's in charge or some other force won't even arise because from a position of oneness that would be an absurd thing to ask.

And no matter how you intellectually resolve this issue of free will vs. predetermination, on a visceral level you can't help but act as if you had free will. So in that sense whatever we are discussing here is going to be without real consequences. But it's fun to intellectually play around with different concepts and every astrologer has to find an answer to those questions because it will determine how s/he will do astrology.
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Unread 08-10-2016, 03:04 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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This question on freewill has been agitating minds for centuries.
That's right. Humans have been asking the exact same existential questions for centuries and they will keep asking and debating the exact same existential questions for centuries to come because there's just no intellectual solution to those problems except a still mind.
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Unread 08-10-2016, 03:43 PM
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Re: Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

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Well, that's what I was saying earlier, from a mere intellectual position you can't tell the difference between a world where free will rules and a world where everything (including thoughts and emotions) is predetermined. So you can't solve that issue intellectually.

Anyway, this issue only arises when reflective thinking is dominant. When you are fully immersed in the here and now as it happens in flow or samadhi then there's no room for such thoughts. There's only acting. The question if you are the one who's in charge or some other force won't even arise because from a position of oneness that would be an absurd thing to ask.

And no matter how you intellectually resolve this issue of free will vs. predetermination, on a visceral level you can't help but act as if you had free will. So in that sense whatever we are discussing here is going to be without erence from an intellectualreal consequences. But it's fun to intellectually play around with different concepts and every astrologer has to find an answer to those questions because it will determine how s/he will do astrology.

Thats what I was at. If you cannot tell the difference from an intellectual state of mind, then from which state of mind can one tell the difference? The still state of mind?

If you trying to imply that there is hardly any difference, thats what my belief says too.

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