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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 02-03-2019, 07:48 PM
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TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

HELLENISTIC TIME LORD PROCEDURES

QUOTE

'….One of the fundamental concepts

common to the many Hellenistic timing techniques
is that of TIME LORD.
The Greek word is CHRONOCRATOR
and this literally means a ruler of time.


When a planet becomes a time lord in an individual’s chart,
it becomes activated
and that planet then rules over the affairs of the person’s life
for a given period of time.

Whatever events that planet signifies in the natal chart
are likely to occur when it is the time lord;

and

according to its placement
condition
and configurations with other planets


those events will be more or less dramatic and more or less beneficial to the life.....'


DEMETRA GEORGE http://www.demetra-george.com/Hellen...Procedures.pdf


QUOTE FROM INTERPRETATION GUIDELINES BY DEMETRA GEORGE

Let us begin with definitions of what we mean bygood/fortunate/beneficial
and
bad/unfortunate/ detrimental.

Good = conditions that result in vital health and long life
prosperity, happiness,
and success in ones endeavors.

Bad = conditions that result in poor health and short life
poverty, suffering,
and failure in ones endeavors.

While it is true that seeming misfortune sometimes turns out for the best,
what we are evaluating is
the final outcomes of events.

And given the choice,
it is unlikely that most people would voluntarily choose

illness, poverty, suffering and failure as their lot in life.

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Unread 02-03-2019, 08:05 PM
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Thumbs up Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

'….One of the fundamental concepts

common to the many Hellenistic timing techniques
is that of TIME LORD.
The Greek word is CHRONOCRATOR
and this literally means a ruler of time.
Thanks, I've been looking for it's mean.
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Unread 02-03-2019, 09:14 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

I think ive been doing it wrong

Using my time lord as an example, am i correct that my time lord being aries/mars this makes aries my profected asc for this year. So the natal planets stay in the same position/houses, but they have now changed signs, so having my mars natally in libra its detriment, but its now in aquarius peregrine.

So having my profected asc as aries, mars is activated but instead of being in libra like it is natally, its now in aquarius ....is this correct ?

Then i also look at what planets are in scorpio, as this is also a mars ruled house ?
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Unread 02-03-2019, 09:23 PM
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Talking Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
I think ive been doing it wrong

Using my time lord as an example, am i correct that my time lord being aries/mars this makes aries my profected asc for this year. So the natal planets stay in the same position/houses, but they have now changed signs, so having my mars natally in libra its detriment, but its now in aquarius peregrine.

So having my profected asc as aries, mars is activated but instead of being in libra like it is natally, its now in aquarius ....is this correct ?

Then i also look at what planets are in scorpio, as this is also a mars ruled house ?
Here, Chrysalis. I have a good post from ms Osamenor, she was talking about profection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
my understanding is that when you profect the ascendant, everything else in the chart moves houses. For example, I'm in an eighth house profection year right now. My eighth sign is Leo. I have the sun in Leo, but nothing else (so my sun is very active right now, by profection, but nothing else is, because the sun doesn't rule any other signs). I have Mercury and Venus in Virgo, which is my ninth sign (although all quadrant systems put them in my eighth house). By profection, though, they're in my second house (profection works with whole sign houses, even if you're using a quadrant system for everything else). My Libra MC, meanwhile, is in my third profected house.

However, with ascendant profection, only the house the ascendant is profected to, and the house its ruler is in if different, and the other house ruled by the time lord (unless the time lord is the sun or the moon), are activated. Since I don't have Virgo or Libra activated by profection right now, that doesn't mean much, in my understanding.

It's also possible to do profections using any planet or point. You could, for instance, profect the MC to the next sign when you're 1 year old (or 13, or 25), and rotate it around the chart. Or the sun. Or the moon. Or anything else. But that's separate from profecting the ascendant, and provides different information.
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Unread 02-03-2019, 09:35 PM
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Thanks SCU.

I've been reading through that same thread, but I still don't understand, how can the houses change.

Must be my natal retrograde mercury, i have to go over and over something before it finally clicks.

For 9hrs today I've been trying to learn this technique, I watched Chris Brennans youtube video on it, and thought I understood, but then afterwards i came across some threads on here regarding it, and I realized I wasn't doing the profected asc, so now I'm confused again.
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Unread 02-03-2019, 09:56 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post

Thanks SCU.
I've been reading through that same thread,
but I still don't understand, how can the houses change.
Must be my natal retrograde mercury,
i have to go over and over something before it finally clicks.
For 9hrs today I've been trying to learn this technique,
I watched Chris Brennans youtube video on it,
and thought I understood, but then afterwards
i came across some threads on here regarding it, and
I realized I wasn't doing the profected asc,
so now I'm confused again.
The Following Profection Wheel illustrates
that
A FIRST HOUSE PROFECTION YEAR is experienced EVERY TWELVE YEARS


The numbers on the outer wheel
are the numbers of the natal houses
all the other numbers are the ages of a person for each Profected year


i.e.
A FIRST HOUSE PROFECTION YEAR COMMENCES
at the age of zero (i.e. for the year COMMENCING AT BIRTH),
twelve, twenty-four, thirty-six, forty-eight
sixty, seventy-two, eighty-four

A SECOND HOUSE PROFECTION YEAR begins EVERY TWELVE YEARS
i.e.
at the ages of one, thirteen, twenty-five, thirty-seven
forty-nine, sixty-one, seventy-three, eighty-five

and so on around the PROFECTION WHEEL

and then
to easily find which ANNUAL PROFECTION you are experincing
find the number relevant to your current age
and note which house has your current chronological age number
and that house
using WHOLE SIGN HOUSES
is the Ascendant sign of your current ANNUAL PROFECTION
and the ruler of that Annually Profected Sign is Lord of the Year aka LOY


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Unread 02-03-2019, 10:01 PM
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I understand the wheel.

I don't understand the profected ascendant and the planets changing signs.

In my first reply on this thread I explained what I meant by this.
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Unread 02-03-2019, 10:17 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post

I understand the wheel.
I don't understand the profected ascendant and the planets changing signs.
In my first reply on this thread I explained what I meant by this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post

Must be my natal retrograde mercury,
i have to go over and over something
before it finally clicks.

Astrological Predictive Techniques
Profections Intro
http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/a...ections-intro/
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Unread 02-03-2019, 10:46 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Use this chart. The first year of your life (from the time you are born until you are one year old) is the ascendant.

Each year after that is the next sign (not house, sign) on. So if you have Gemini rising, that's your year until you're one, then from being one to two it's Cancer, two to three, it's Leo, etc.
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Unread 02-04-2019, 12:25 AM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
I think ive been doing it wrong

Using my time lord as an example, am i correct that my time lord being aries/mars this makes aries my profected asc for this year. So the natal planets stay in the same position/houses, but they have now changed signs, so having my mars natally in libra its detriment, but its now in aquarius peregrine.

So having my profected asc as aries, mars is activated but instead of being in libra like it is natally, its now in aquarius ....is this correct ?

Then i also look at what planets are in scorpio, as this is also a mars ruled house ?
The commonest use of profections is the profecting of the ascendant, which means that the time lord will be the planet ruling the ascendant for the year. It's a self-contained timing technique, which means that planets are looked at natally or "profectionally", not through transits or progressions.

An example. Natally I have Sagittarius rising, on my 22nd birthday it was an 11th house profection year. Libra is the 11th sign from Sagittarius, hence Venus would be the time lord for that year.

Although Libra is the 11th sign, the MC is located here and the ruler Venus is located in the 2nd house of Capricorn. On the day of my birthday I was offered a job.

This is where things get eclectic since I look at out-of-sign aspects. Venus is conjunct Mars within 2 degrees and also they are in the same declination so mundanely they were located in the same position of the sky at my birth. Venus is also connected with the Moon in Aquarius through a sextile aspect. The Moon is located in the 3rd sign of the chart.

All of those aspects to Venus were relevant to the type of job that I was being offered. Capricorn and Aquarius are related to the sea, Mars was relevant since there was a heavy physical/athletic component to the job functions, it involved moving locations (Moon 3rd) etc. All planets that are connected to the time lord either through house rulership or aspects also had relevance to the major areas of focus throughout the year - Mars rules 12th, Mars in 1st, Venus in 2nd, Moon in 3rd, Mars rules 5th, Venus rules 6th, Moon rules 8th, Venus rules 11th.

Hopefully this helped you to understand more. As you can see, a lot of information can be garnered just from focusing on what the time lord and its connections are doing in the chart.
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Unread 02-04-2019, 01:26 AM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

If it wasn't made clear, time lord is a general term for the planetary influence that is most dominant for the times of a specific technique - time lords aren't only restricted to profections. Which means that there is a different time lord for firdaria, cirmumambulations, zodiacal releasing, solar/lunar returns etc.

The value of using all of these techniques in delineation is another issue.
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Unread 02-04-2019, 11:10 AM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Thanks CT for sharing yours, its really interesting.

I seem to be more of a visual learner, i need to visually watch someone explaining something step by step, because of this i do most of my Astrological studying watching youtube videos.

Ive just found and watched video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL4Yoru5uHk this has now helped me understand the 'rotated Ascendant', its this that i was struggling with in understanding. I was just locating my time lord and that was it, i was never rotating the ascendant to my sign for that year.
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Unread 02-04-2019, 11:19 AM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Available reading on the topic from Benjamin Dykes
at https://www.bendykes.com/product-tag/profections/
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
If it wasn't made clear, time lord is a general term for the planetary influence that is most dominant for the times of a specific technique - time lords aren't only restricted to profections. Which means that there is a different time lord for firdaria, cirmumambulations, zodiacal releasing, solar/lunar returns etc.

The value of using all of these techniques in delineation is another issue.
Thanks for this info

However, I`m still not sure how to approach LOY - via the lens of the natal house the profected AC falls in (no natal planet resides in this house), or via the lens of the houses the LOY rules in natal ?



Is the rationale applied here similar with the other timelord systems, like ZR, Firdaria etc.?
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
The commonest use of profections is the profecting of the ascendant, which means that the time lord will be the planet ruling the ascendant for the year. It's a self-contained timing technique, which means that planets are looked at natally or "profectionally", not through transits or progressions.

An example. Natally I have Sagittarius rising, on my 22nd birthday it was an 11th house profection year. Libra is the 11th sign from Sagittarius, hence Venus would be the time lord for that year.

Although Libra is the 11th sign, the MC is located here and the ruler Venus is located in the 2nd house of Capricorn. On the day of my birthday I was offered a job.

This is where things get eclectic since I look at out-of-sign aspects. Venus is conjunct Mars within 2 degrees and also they are in the same declination so mundanely they were located in the same position of the sky at my birth. Venus is also connected with the Moon in Aquarius through a sextile aspect. The Moon is located in the 3rd sign of the chart.

All of those aspects to Venus were relevant to the type of job that I was being offered. Capricorn and Aquarius are related to the sea, Mars was relevant since there was a heavy physical/athletic component to the job functions, it involved moving locations (Moon 3rd) etc. All planets that are connected to the time lord either through house rulership or aspects also had relevance to the major areas of focus throughout the year - Mars rules 12th, Mars in 1st, Venus in 2nd, Moon in 3rd, Mars rules 5th, Venus rules 6th, Moon rules 8th, Venus rules 11th.

Hopefully this helped you to understand more. As you can see, a lot of information can be garnered just from focusing on what the time lord and its connections are doing in the chart.
Okay tell me how im doing, using mine as an example.

My profected Asc for this year is Aries, time lord mars. I have mars in my 11th house now in the sign of Aquarius. Mars also rules scorpio the 8th house (using whole signs), with jupiter posited in there.

So the activated planets are mars and jupiter, the activated signs are aries/scorpio/aquarius/8th house.
Do i also take into account what house the signs rules natally ?

The new year attack happened around 1.30am at exactly the same time TR mars entered Aries, which would have been conjunct my profected Asc. At this time TR moon would have been square my natal mars/pluto conjunction in libra, going through my profected 8th house of scorpio.

Im using this example, as with mars being my time lord for this year, this is the only significant mars related thing thats happened.

Just to add: going on sect mars would also have been the most malefic planet being in a day chart.
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Last edited by Chrysalis; 02-04-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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Talking Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
Okay tell me how im doing, using mine as an example.

My profected Asc for this year is Aries, time lord mars. I have mars in my 11th house now in the sign of Aquarius. Mars also rules scorpio the 8th house (using whole signs), with jupiter posited in there.

So the activated planets are mars and jupiter, the activated signs are aries/scorpio/aquarius/8th house.
Do i also take into account what house the signs rules natally ?

The new year attack happened around 1.30am at exactly the same time TR mars entered Aries, which would have been conjunct my profected Asc. At this time TR moon would have been square my natal mars/pluto conjunction in libra, going through my profected 8th house of scorpio.

Im using this example, as with mars being my time lord for this year, this is the only significant mars related thing thats happened.

Just to add: going on sect mars would also have been the most malefic planet being in a day chart.
Where is your natal in Aries? 1, 2, 3, etc house?
Mars is afflicted by sun and saturn if you say early aries, assuming you are using tropical. But of course, it depend on your locations. It would be good for you to post the chart.
Btw, pluto is irrelevant.
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Time lord for the month question.


So each respective sign following the profected Asc, will be each month following on, till we reach the whole 12 months, where we then start a new profected Asc.

So the time lord for that particular month, do we also take this into account, as well as the annual time lord ? For example mine for this month will be mercury, so i take note of mercury ruled signs being transited and aspects to natal mercury and from transit mercury this month.

Is this correct ?

Looking a bit deeper, we can do weekly, so we'd start from the monthly sign which would be week 1...next sign week 2....etc
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Where is your natal in Aries? 1, 2, 3, etc house?
Mars is afflicted by sun and saturn if you say early aries, assuming you are using tropical. But of course, it depend on your locations. It would be good for you to post the chart.
Btw, pluto is irrelevant.
My natal aries using whole signs is the 5th house.

Post which chart ?

The Chris brennan video i watched, said any planet tightly conjunct the time lord should be taken into consideration too, theres only 1 degree between my mars/pluto.
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Unread 02-04-2019, 03:14 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

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Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
Time lord for the month question.


So each respective sign following the profected Asc, will be each month following on, till we reach the whole 12 months, where we then start a new profected Asc.

So the time lord for that particular month, do we also take this into account, as well as the annual time lord ? For example mine for this month will be mercury, so i take note of mercury ruled signs being transited and aspects to natal mercury and from transit mercury this month.

Is this correct ?

Looking a bit deeper, we can do weekly, so we'd start from the monthly sign which would be week 1...next sign week 2....etc
kaktuzz explains

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post


Hi Chrysalis,

1) if you want to calculate the traditional "Hellenistic Annual Profections"?
(Chris Brennan is talking about this technique in his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwfIMnBKZk )

=> then you don't need to set anything; just keep the default settings and you will get the table of your Annual time-lords for your current age:
https://i.imgur.com/osNXhGY.gif

(hint: you might set the Period, Age to "0-100 years" ... and you will get the list of your annual time-lords during your entire life)


2) The other option: "Continous profections" are actually "Symbolic arc progressions" using various profection/progression arc keys.
if you want to experiment with this kind of profections/progressions, just experiment with the "profection key":
- 1° for 1 year;
- 12° for 1 year (1° for 1 month);
- 30° for 1 year;
- 360° for 1 year;
and you will see how your entire chart is moved by this profection arc in the bi-wheel chart:
https://i.imgur.com/sO9nNT1.gif

(hint: there is an option "Browse time" - so you might just click forward/backward and see this continous movement)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post


Ha ha, i watched this yesterday, but Chris seems to forget to mention the rotated Asc (that id been reading about on here), hence why i then went onto your site to get a chart done for me, to see how the ascendent sign changes. I understand now though...finally.
Thanks Kaktuzz
all FREE at kaktuzz website

at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/an...ogy-calculator
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Unread 02-04-2019, 03:17 PM
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Talking Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
My natal aries using whole signs is the 5th house.

Post which chart ?

The Chris brennan video i watched, said any planet tightly conjunct the time lord should be taken into consideration too, theres only 1 degree between my mars/pluto.
Chris Brennan never upload video about pluto and so, pluto is not in his consideration. Please check it, thank you.

Your birthchart
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Unread 02-04-2019, 03:18 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post

My natal aries using whole signs is the 5th house.
Post which chart ?
The Chris brennan video i watched, said any planet tightly conjunct the time lord should be
taken into consideration too, theres only 1 degree between my mars/pluto.
by the way

if you view the Chris Brennan video
notice Chris Brennan illustrates with charts that all have outers removed

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post

Where is your natal in Aries? 1, 2, 3, etc house?
Mars is afflicted by sun and saturn if you say early aries, assuming you are using tropical. But of course, it depend on your locations.

It would be good for you to post the chart.
Natal

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post

Btw, pluto is irrelevant.
obviously because this thread is on traditional board
***Please Read Before Posting On This Board***
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...83&postcount=1

note that Chris Brennans video that you linked to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwfIMnBKZk
uses charts that have all outers removed
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 02-04-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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Unread 02-04-2019, 03:34 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

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Originally Posted by dd78 View Post
Thanks for this info

However, I`m still not sure how to approach LOY - via the lens of the natal house the profected AC falls in (no natal planet resides in this house), or via the lens of the houses the LOY rules in natal ?

Is the rationale applied here similar with the other timelord systems, like ZR, Firdaria etc.?
For the first question, both. LOY is influential because it rules the profected ascendant and any influences coming to or from the time lord will have bearing on the events of the year. In the example, Venus was the ruler of the 11th sign, but it also rules the MC, 6th sign and is located in the 2nd sign. The aspects that Venus has to other planets and the influences that these bring also has relevance to what occurred in the year. So approach the LOY comprehensively.

The rationale applied here is also relevant to other systems of timing. Here is some information related to two timing techniques that I mentioned previously - circumambulation and firdaria.

https://www.demetra-george.com/Helle...Procedures.pdf
http://www.academiadeastrologia.com/...s/Firdaria.pdf
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  #23  
Unread 02-04-2019, 03:52 PM
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Talking Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

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Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
Well like ive just quoted, what Chris has said, if it is conjoined tightly to an inner, especially the time lord itself, then it should be considered.

It makes perfect sense.
It is in your sense, not in the sense of author prior 15th century. It's okay, if you are not post your chart then keep arguing.
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Unread 02-04-2019, 03:52 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

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Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post


Well like ive just quoted, what Chris has said, if it is conjoined tightly to an inner,

especially the time lord itself, then it should be considered.
It makes perfect sense.
You are a modernist astrologer, exploring traditional PROFECTIONS
and you are posting on our traditional board
Chris Brennan is not commenting on our traditional board
Chris Brennan uploaded a video on youtube
on which Chris Brennan made a few opinions concerning a dwarf planet

HOWEVER

our Traditional Astrology board
is the home for traditional astrologers.
so that traditional astrologers
can discuss traditional astrology with each other,
without having to justify it
to non-traditionalists
or
be interrupted
by people disagreeing
with traditional perspectives.
If you are not a traditional astrologer

you are welcome as a guest.
Good guests respect the rules of the house
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Unread 02-04-2019, 03:53 PM
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Re: TIME LORDS - a TRADITIONAL Hellenistic Procedure

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Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
Okay tell me how im doing, using mine as an example.

My profected Asc for this year is Aries, time lord mars. I have mars in my 11th house now in the sign of Aquarius. Mars also rules scorpio the 8th house (using whole signs), with jupiter posited in there.

So the activated planets are mars and jupiter, the activated signs are aries/scorpio/aquarius/8th house.
Do i also take into account what house the signs rules natally ?

The new year attack happened around 1.30am at exactly the same time TR mars entered Aries, which would have been conjunct my profected Asc. At this time TR moon would have been square my natal mars/pluto conjunction in libra, going through my profected 8th house of scorpio.

Im using this example, as with mars being my time lord for this year, this is the only significant mars related thing thats happened.

Just to add: going on sect mars would also have been the most malefic planet being in a day chart.
This is how I would approach your profection year.

Aries is the profected ascendant, so Mars is the ruler. You do not profect everything in the chart when you profect the ascendant. So we'll take the natal placements as it stands at your moment of your birth.

Aries is 5th sign, so 5th house profection year. Apart from the 5th, it also rules the 12th (a "bad" house). It is located with Venus and Pluto in the 11th sign - Libra. It is in it's detriment and out-of-sect so this is a Mars that is very harmful.

By my view, there are very solid correspondences between these placements and the new year attack that you experienced. Mars rules both the 12th and 5th house in your chart - hidden enemies, mental affliction and partying/celebration. The location of Mars is in the sign of Libra - a Venusian sign which brings in sexuality. Libra is also a violent human sign - harming of people. If you want to add Pluto to the mix*, what you get is coercion, force and rape. The location of this tripe conjunction of Mars/Venus/Pluto is located in the 11th house - another celebratory house. This attack occurred when on the night of new year's eve.

*Even if you don't use Pluto, Venus/Mars is traditionally seen as an aspect of lechery and sexual debauchery, and the pattern would still hold true if Pluto wasn't added. Pluto does add emphasis to the event, and it's significations actually result in a stronger correlation between the event and astrological markers.

Since you've indicated this publicly, I don't think it would be too revealing to say - this isn't the first time you were sexually abused in your life. If you were to look at the year this happened to you previously, you might find the same markers cropping up for that period.
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