when will document arrive?

Long story short. My boyfriend married a document to his ex wife (who is now his friend and mine). I am going to meet her on Wed night to pick it up. He mailed it Tuesday but she hasn't received it, and i HAVE TO receive it before i go to see him.

The question is will *she* get the doc by Wed night?

Since Saturn is in the 7th and i'm the querent, this isnt fit for *me* to judge and it's an early ASC but i'm requesting help reading the chart anyway, since she *should have* received it in the mail by today (Sat 10/12).

From what I can tell:

House 3 is documents and deliveries.
House 3 is Gemini = Merc therefore that is the doc.
Merc is in the 7th house.
His ex is a friend (my 11th house of Cap therefore Saturn; Saturn is in 7th next to Merc the docs). Therefore the documents in 3 degrees will be with her -- is that accurate???? (that cant be - it would be too easy).

I have to travel to her to get the docs from her.
I am Pisces therefore Jupiter and i'm in the 6th house. Five degree applying aspect... Five days (sat = Thurs?)

Anyone?

KatyaVelikaya said:

Long story short. My boyfriend married a document to his ex wife (who is now his friend and mine). I am going to meet her on Wed night to pick it up. He mailed it Tuesday but she hasn't received it, and i HAVE TO receive it before i go to see him.

The question is will *she* get the doc by Wed night?

Since Saturn is in the 7th and i'm the querent, this isnt fit for *me* to judge and it's an early ASC but i'm requesting help reading the chart anyway, since she *should have* received it in the mail by today (Sat 10/12).

From what I can tell:

House 3 is documents and deliveries.
House 3 is Gemini = Merc therefore that is the doc.
Merc is in the 7th house.
His ex is a friend (my 11th house of Cap therefore Saturn; Saturn is in 7th next to Merc the docs). Therefore the documents in 3 degrees will be with her -- is that accurate???? (that cant be - it would be too easy).

I have to travel to her to get the docs from her.
I am Pisces therefore Jupiter and i'm in the 6th house. Five degree applying aspect... Five days (sat = Thurs?)

Anyone?

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While you are the querent, yet it seems to me the action of the question is is between him and her. That is:

I wonder if you and any other horary astrologers might agree with this.

If that logic is sound, then he is signified by the ruler of the 7th.
His mail to her is signified the 3rd from the 7th, or the ruler of 9th.
And I would think that his ex-wife would be signified by the 7th from him, or the ruler of the 1st.

IleneK said:

While you are the querent, yet it seems to me the action of the question is is between him and her. That is:

Will she receive the correspondence that he sent her by Wednesday night? And if so, when?
​

I wonder if you and any other horary astrologers might agree with this.

If that logic is sound, then he is signified by the ruler of the 7th.
His mail to her is signified the 3rd from the 7th, or the ruler of 9th.
And I would think that his ex-wife would be signified by the 7th from him, or the ruler of the 1st.

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Oh good point. Yes I happen to agree with you, the doc would be *his* 3rd since he sent it. So that in this case is the 9th house as you note. 9th house is Sagg, therefore Jupiter is the document. He would be Mercury.

What am not sure about is that his ex is the 7th from him, since I am technically his "partner" now. So would she not then be the 11th from him, a friend? (??) I dont know, just suggesting...

If you take *his 7th* for her, (tho they are divorced and only friends now), then we have Aquarius therefore Saturn(her), which is applying to Jupiter(doc) in a trine. (the 8 degrees worries me!)
If you take 11th for her, that would be *his* 11th, which is the 5th, Cancer, therefore she's the Moon. The Moon and Jupiter are --oh that's eery also in an 8 degree aspect; but its an 8 degree opposition.

So Jupiter applies trine to Saturn so they do meet in 8 degrees/units.
And Moon is opp Jupiter in 8 degrees -- in EITHER case they are aspecting AND it seems to be 8 units of time.

The question is, when do the 8 units of time start counting? from the time of this question? or from the time of the doc being mailed? My only hope here is the 8 degrees signifies the time it takes from him SENDING it to her GETTING it, and not from the time I asked this question. If that is the case, then she will get it by Wednesday.
If that is not the case, then a lot of money and time are lost and I will not be able to see him...

KatyaVelikaya said:

Oh good point. Yes I happen to agree with you, the doc would be *his* 3rd since he sent it. So that in this case is the 9th house as you note. 9th house is Sagg, therefore Jupiter is the document. He would be Mercury.

What am not sure about is that his ex is the 7th from him, since I am technically his "partner" now. So would she not then be the 11th from him, a friend? (??) I dont know, just suggesting...

If you take *his 7th* for her, (tho they are divorced and only friends now), then we have Aquarius therefore Saturn(her), which is applying to Jupiter(doc) in a trine. (the 8 degrees worries me!)
If you take 11th for her, that would be *his* 11th, which is the 5th, Cancer, therefore she's the Moon. The Moon and Jupiter are --oh that's eery also in an 8 degree aspect; but its an 8 degree opposition.

So Jupiter applies trine to Saturn so they do meet in 8 degrees/units.
And Moon is opp Jupiter in 8 degrees -- in EITHER case they are aspecting AND it seems to be 8 units of time.

The question is, when do the 8 units of time start counting? from the time of this question? or from the time of the doc being mailed? My only hope here is the 8 degrees signifies the time it takes from him SENDING it to her GETTING it, and not from the time I asked this question. If that is the case, then she will get it by Wednesday.
If that is not the case, then a lot of money and time are lost and I will not be able to see him...

Click to expand...

I am just looking at the chart now. We want to know if the document, ruler of the 9th, Jupiter, will get to her.

Now if we allow her to be ruler of the 1st, then that is Jupiter also, so I don't think that will work. There may be alternatives for significators for her or for the document, like the almuten for the Jupiter as ruler of one or the other house, but I am getting in way over my head here.

So maybe we should approach it as her being a friend, 11th from the 7th, or the radical 5th, which as you said, was signified by Moon. Moon is not strong in the sign of its detriment, Capricorn. It does attract/invite the document/Jupiter, as Jupiter is in the sign of Moon's dignity, Cancer. However, Moon does not apply to an aspect with Jupiter.

So, if we have properly designated the significators, and I am not certain we have, then I sense a lot of things need to happen for the document to get where it needs to go. This may be partially true because Moon, as indicator of the unfolding of the question, will be be changing sign soon [leaving the sign of its detriment]. And also, the early rising point reiterates that much is yet to unfold and ensue before the outcome may be known.

EDIT: I've corrected my post above to use the proper significators, so did not delete.
Sorry for the confusion and still would love to hear from other more experienced horary folks.

IleneK said:

Gee, Katya.

I've got to delete my post above because I lost it and used Mercury instead of Jupiter, so all the logic is incorrect. So sorry and I hope to get back to the delineation later. And actually it may be more somewhat more affirmative, since Moon likes/invites Jupiter in the sign of Cancer. But we will have to see.

EDIT: I've corrected my post above to use the proper significators. Sorry for the confusion and still would love to hear from other more experienced horary folks.

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Ak, Ilene, maybe dont delete it just yet, so that we simply have it to refer to. But i'm noting what you said... Jup as significator... I am PRAYING that Moon likes Jupiter!!! I am just so worried about this, it has fried my nerves...

I asked Dr Farr to chime in and i welcome other posters too...

Moon does not apply to an aspect with Jupiter.

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But wait, they are opposing, so that is an aspect. No?

KatyaVelikaya said:

But wait, they are opposing, so that is an aspect. No?

Click to expand...

Moon is past its opposition to Jupiter. For the significators to connect in the future, the aspect needs to be applying, that is, either prior to or at perfection.

Ok. ****. This trip has cost me already $800. Without that document, I dont get to see my boyfriend, (and at that, wont get to see him again until March) so even getting on the plane is pointless... this $&^@*! *****.

Can we look at this another way? Ultimately I'm the one who needs this document. He has sent it by mail to her, so we cannot stop that process now. The problem is she has not received it, there is no tracking and he was a frigging idiot to do this. But be that as it may.

Since he sent the doc, and the doc needs to ultimately get to ME by Thursday (I would have picked it up from her) can we see if the document and I will "perfect" aspect?? would that work?

In that case Doc is still Jupiter and I am... Pisces therefore Jupiter, so that doent help. Or then you take me as the Moon, and we end up with the same issue -- past perfection...by 8 degrees. So either way its the same outcome i guess?

KatyaVelikaya said:

Can we look at this another way? Ultimately I'm the one who needs this document. He has sent it by mail to her, so we cannot stop that process now. The problem is she has not received it, there is no tracking and he was a frigging idiot to do this. But be that as it may.

Since he sent the doc, and the doc needs to ultimately get to ME by Thursday (I would have picked it up from her) can we see if the document and I will "perfect" aspect?? would that work?

In that case Doc is still Jupiter and I am... Pisces therefore Jupiter, so that doent help. Or then you take me as the Moon, and we end up with the same issue -- past perfection...by 8 degrees. So either way its the same outcome i guess?

Click to expand...

Here's the deal as I see it, Katya. My experience with horary is somewhat limited, so I am not even certain sure we have set up the significators correctly. So to try to extend the model we have developed here to give you an answer that you can rely on, I think may not be the best thing to do. Especially since this is so important to you.

The early ascendant says to me something like it is too soon to know the answer. And the fact is that we do not know if she will receive the document in time. If it were me, at this point, I would just wait to allow the events to unfold, and there will be time to be upset if you come to find that she did not get the document.

I am really sorry that I could not be of more help and am still hoping for the best.

For me, the ascending degree being near 0, makes the indications of the chart unreliable for delineation (I'll use 1 and above, and I'll use 29 and below, but over 29 or under 1 is just too close even for me) Best I can do is say "maybe", which of course is not much help.
Since I consider the chart unreliable, from my perspective it would be correct to re-ask this question again (since in my opinion the first chart is invalid due to the shifting cosmic trends re to the question at that time, as shown by under 1 degree rising)...

Thanks Ilene and Dr Farr...

I just phoned the notary with whom my boyfriend created this document. He cannot restore it and said it would have to be redone from scratch for another $100 fee but he can only do it Friday afternoon which is going to be too late. I am trying to reach the office that requires this document in the first place but they are not answering the phones.

I ran another chart just now for whatever it's worth (If this is invalid bc nothing has changed yet, then I will delete this and ask tomorrow or once there is more info). But in the meantime i will post it anyway.

As far as I can see the document is the 9th house Leo therefore Sun. I am Scorpio therefore Mars and the two do not aspect. BAD. She would be 11th house...which is I think Venus. Venus/Sun are past perfection 1 degree here too which also looks BAD.

If you progress the moon 13.2 degrees per day (mon-tues, tues-wed, wed-thurs) 13.2 x 3 = 39.6 degrees by the time I will be in their city which puts the Moon JUST inside Aries in the 4th house. I dont know if that's significant. In that respect the Moon will be almost opposite the Sun but not quite.

QUESTION: can we approach this as a missing item horary? Bc at this point, 6 days after the fact, and 4 days late, the letter/document *IS* missing.

EDITED TO ADD: I finally reached the office, they will not accept a copy of the original notarized document (which he does have -- a copy that is) but they need an original. And if we dont make the 5pm deadline then i cant see him at all. The plane/hotel/taxi/the $300 for the documents on my end = all lost.

Maybe not the best use of my time but by God I'm looking for hope here. So I have spent quite a while researching this on Google books.
THere's something about the significator's being in each other's signs/houses that is supposed to be good. I'm Scorpio therefore Mars. I'm sitting in the 9th house *of the document*. The sun meanwhile is on the CUSP of the 11th, ie RIGHT by where She (the woman who will receive the document, if she does indeed receive it) is. The two do not aspect but they are in each others' houses which is (I think??) a good sign. I dont know what this is called.

I have never understood Translation of Light so I am not sure if that is going on here either.

I read the following orbs are allowed for aspects:
conj/opp/trine/square: 8 degrees
sextile: 6 degrees
quincunx: 2 degrees (the source i read says it should be included, altho i know in horary many dont consider it)

I also am curious to know if we project the chart/planetary movement what happens... I welcome again any input here.

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Additionally I just found this in terms of where the document is, if it is lost [http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson9/.]

I had already phoned the local post this morning. Since the letter doesnt have tracking they cannot do anything about it. Even though the place it was sent to does not have a ton of people (ie i dont think it would be that hard for them to search, but they ain't gonna). So I am curious WHERE THE * is this document now? Is it sitting in the post office and not just delivered? Did it leave the first place of sending? was it misdelivered?

From the link above:

Asking the Question
We have to use derivative houses in Lost & Found charts. For instance, "Where is my manuscript?" might use the 3rd house to represent the lost manuscript. "Where is Susan's manuscript?", on the other hand, would use the 9th (i.e. the 3rd of the 7th). And if Susan is explicitly referred to as a friend--"Where is my friend Susan's manuscript?"--you might even place Susan in the 11th, making the radical 1st house the ruler of the manuscript (the 3rd of the 11th). All this chart turning becomes very easy once you've done it a few times.

General Observations
In addition to the ruler of the house in question, the Moon is, according to Lilly, also a signifier of whatever is lost, and of all strayed beasts.
Lilly says that if you cast a chart for a missing person who is a complete stranger, you should use the first house to represent him. Some astrologers look at both the 1st and the 7th, and pick the house that better describes the querent (more on physical description in a later lesson). Generally, traditional horary astrologers discern physical descriptions by looking at the sign on the cusp, the ruling planet, and the ruler's dispositer, by term.
2nd house generally rules possessions. Questions about lost wallets, keys, jewelry, and so forth are 2nd house questions.
Vehicles are are 3rd house objects.
Confusingly, Lilly also assigns "things mislaid" to the 4th house.
If the signifier or Moon of the thing lost is oriental, or in the Ascendant, the object is East; occidental, and, west.
If the signifier or Moon is in human signs, it is in a place people frequent; if it is in "signs of small beasts," it is where you might find small animals. And so on.
If the Moon is in fiery signs, it is near heat or fire, someplace warm and dry. If it is in a watery sign, it is someplace cold and damp,or near water. And so on.
If the Moon is with the Ascendant ruler, in the same quarter of the chart, and there is no more than 30° between them, the object is in the querent's home. If they are between 30° and 70°, the object is somewhere in the neighborhood or town of the querent. If they are not in the same quadrant, the thing is far from the owner.
Here are some general rules for the location of a signifier by mode and house.

Modes and Locations

Cardinal: high places, rooftops, near ceilings, hills, new buildings, freshly-dug ground
Fixed: Hidden areas, low places, in walls, near floors, flat land.
Mutable: In the house, or if outside, watery or marshy places, ditches, markets.

Houses and Locations

Angular: Where it should be; in the home; where the querent spends a lot of time; in a visible place
Succedent: Not in its usual place, but not far away; harder to find; maybe out of doors, in a garage or outbuilding, or in the yard.
Cadent: Farther away;hidden from view; lost; near a neighbor (if in the 3rd); secret places


Elements and Locations

Air: High places; upstairs, upper floors; on shelves; on the roof; near the ceiling; near windows. WEST
Fire: Mid-upper areas; near fireplaces, chimneys, stoves and ovens;near warm dry places; sources of heat;near walls; near iron; EAST
Water: Low places; damp areas; near water; bathrooms, kitchens, utility rooms; near water lines;rivers, lakes,oceans;NORTH
Earth: At/below ground level; close to the floor; near the earth; quarries; gardens; buried; near a bridge; near pavement, clay, cement; SOUTH
---------------->We have moon in Aquarius, an AIR sign. WEST. West of the sender?? That would be the right direction it needs to go...

(Following is not in accordance with standard horary practice and uses whole sign house format)
-querent = 1st house = Scorpio = Mars
-document = 9th house = Cancer = Moon
-document (Moon) flows away from querent (Mars) = - testimony
-querent Mars flows away from the Part of Fortune = - testimony
-querent has Lucky Strike NN in 1st house and Mars flows toward the NN = + testimony
...2 - testimonies, 1 + = net -1 = answer is probably no (the document will likely not reach the querent in time) I sincerely hope this prognostic turns out to be incorrect!

(Magic 8 Ball is a bit more hopeful: 9th house = Cancer = Moon = a maybe answer to th question...)

Thanks Dr. Farr.

I was going to say "wait, 9th house isn't cancer" but i see you used whole sign format so that explains it. Sigh. For now it is 3 more days of nerves and waiting.

I am very happy that I was WRONG
I think the Lucky Strike NN in the 1st house, with querent significator Mars flowing toward it, saved the day.

I shall also add that many consider the 3rd house the significator of documents, ESPECIALLY DOCUMENTS IN TRANSIT (similar to a letter)
Taking the 3rd house as quesited significator (instead of the 9th, and I will add that I almost always use the 9th house as significator for documents) the significator is Saturn, and Saturn (the document) is in the querent's own signifying house (the 1st), and querent's Mars flows toward quesited significator Saturn: 2 quite + testimonies (by the Ankara method) which would have yielded a (correct) yes answer to the question.
Quesited significator makes all the difference in the world!

Ha, thanks Dr. Farr, warmly I am also glad you were "wrong" this time -- but then we all were.
I was thinking about significators last night too and wondering what the appropriate one was.. I suppose as you said, it was the regular 3rd house for the doc in this case....note to self for the future!