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Unread 05-05-2007, 04:40 AM
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Elansome Elansome is offline
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frustration and dignities

Dear All
I got a few questions if you could please answer me. About frustration/intervention. Let's say if Moon (15 Sag) is going to conjunct Jupiter (18 Sag) after Moon squares to Uranus (17 Pis) does that count as frustration? Because it is so close to perfect its conjunction. Does it means it will be so close but something will prevent it? Also Uranus count as a major planet yes?

Also we all try to learn the dignities by term and face. What I don't understand is if a planet let's say to be dignified in one sign, has it to be in the same degree that shown in the essential dignities table. For example Mars dignifed in 30 degrees of Sag. Has it to be exactly 30 degree? What about it is on 28?

Please help I am so confisued!
Thanks

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Unread 05-05-2007, 05:40 AM
Blandy Blandy is offline
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Re: frustration and dignities

Hi, I'm not completely sure about this, but the moon is the slower planet, and Jupiter is the bigger, now if Jupiter were to join with Uranus before the moon conjoined with Jupiter, than that would be a frustration......
Now like I said, I'm not totally sure, I hope someone can shed some light on this. Anyway, I would like to know the answer to this as well, because Jupiter and Saturn are currently trine At zero degrees Applying, would this stop frustrate applying aspects from other smaller more faster planets from perfecting with both Jupiter and Saturn
Thanks Blandy
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Unread 05-05-2007, 05:50 AM
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Elansome Elansome is offline
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Re: frustration and dignities

"Hi, I'm not completely sure about this, but the moon is the slower planet, and Jupiter is the bigger, now if Jupiter were to join with Uranus before the moon conjoined with Jupiter, than that would be a frustration......"

No no actually Moon is the one that conjoin with Jupiter. But before that it will square Uranus for one degree difference. But Uranus is not on essential dignified table. So I wonder that square to Uranus count as frustration? It is a modern planet after all but seems as malefic isn't it? Uranus in that chart rules 9th and 10th house. I wonder if that a frustration what kind of obstacle it should be?

I am dying to know..
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Unread 05-05-2007, 05:58 AM
Blandy Blandy is offline
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Re: frustration and dignities

It does not make a difference if The moon is going to conjoin with Jupiter, the moon is still the swifter planet. There are certain rules to frustration, and I don't believe that this situation satisfies those rules. hypothetically if Uranus were to make any aspect to Jupiter before the moon could perfect the conjunction, the moon would be frustrated. The moon making aspect to Uranus before making aspect to Jupiter has nothing to do with frustration.
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Unread 05-07-2007, 04:57 AM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: frustration and dignities

On frustration, CA. pg 112:

Frustration is when a swift planet would corporally join with a more ponderous, but before they can come to a conjunction, the more weighty planet is joined to another, and so the conjunction of the first is frustrated, as Mercury in ten degrees of Aries, Mars twelve, Jupiter in thirteen of Aries; here Mercury strives to come to conjunction with Mars, but Mars first gets to conjoin with Jupiter; whereby Mercury is frustrated of the conjunction of Mars: in Questions it signifies as much as our common Proverb, 'Two Dogs quarrel, a third gets the Bone'.

More simply put, one planet applies to another, but before the swifter, applying planet has chance to fulfill the promise of union, the slower planet already catches up with another.

Frustration is a form of prohibition, but frustration only occurs via the conjoining of planets, and not the aspecting of them. Put another way, if the prohibition is occasioned by a conjunction of a slower planet to another despite a faster planet applying to it within it's orbs, it is frustration, if it is by aspect, it is prohibitive, but not 'frustration' as such.

On Prohibition CA 111:

Prohibition is when two planets that signify the effecting or bringing to conclusion any thing demanded, are applying to an Aspect, another planet interposes either his body or aspect, so that thereby the matter propounded is hindered and retarded; this is called prohibition. For Example, Mars is in 7 degrees of Aries, and Saturn is in the 12. Mars signifies the effecting my business when he comes to the body of Saturn who promises the conclusion, the Sun is at the same time in 6 degrees of Aries. Now in regard that the Sun is swifter in motion than Mars , he will overtake Mars, and come to his conjunction with Saturn before Mars, whereby whatever Mars or Saturn did formerly signify, is now prohibited by the Sun his first impeding Mars and then Saturn, before they can come to a true conjunction. This manner of conjunction is called a Conjunctional or Bodily prohibition; and you must know that the combustion of any planet is the greatest misfortune that can be...

Now this sounds very similar to what was described for frustration earlier, but the difference here is, that we are concerned with a faster planet getting in the way of the conjoining of two others applying to conjoin.

Frustration on the other hand, concerns a slower planet applying to yet conjoin another, in spite of a faster planet making a bid for conjunction.

Hopefully, the clarifies a little on frustration and bodily prohibiton, but we still haven't identified what you refer to in your original post.

...The second manner of Prohibiton is by Aspect, either sextile, square, trine, opposition, viz. when two planets are going to Conjunction, as Mars in 7 degrees of Aries, Saturn in 15 of Aries; let us admit the Sun at 5 degrees of Gemini: he then being more swift than Mars in his diurnal motion, does quickly overtake, and pass by the sextile dexter of Mars (and comes before Mars cancome to conjunction) to a sextile dexter of Saturn. This is called Prohibition by Aspect...

So the form of prohibtion you are looking for is prohibiton by aspect, because Uranus gets in the way of the Moon's application of conjunction to Jupiter, by aspect.

In any case, using strict horary rules the non-light bearing planets are not usually considered, but this is after all, only an example. However, if the transpersonals are used in horary, are the terms 'translation of light' and 'collection of light', not rendered obsolete? What of receptions when the transpersonal have no place in the table of essential dignities?

Anyway, as were on it, I might as well quote Lilly on refrenation, another form of prohibition:

On Refrenation CA pg 111:

There's another manner of prohibition; by some more properly called Refrenation; as thus, Saturn in 12 degrees Aries, Mars in 7 degrees, here hastens to a conjunction of Saturn, but before he comes to the tenth or eleventh degree of Aries he becomes Retrograde, and by that means refrains to come to a conjunction of Saturn, who still moves forward in the sign; nothing signified by the former conjunction will ever be effected.

*'Bodily prohibition', or simply 'prohibition' concerns the quicker planet getting bodily in the way of conjunction between a slower one to another.

*'Frustration' concerns the slower planet conjoining another in spite of a quicker planet applying to reach it.

*'Prohibition by aspect' is what you were looking for in your first post.

*'Refrenation' is a from of prohibiton whereby a planet fails application to conjunction due to retrograde motion.

Quote:
Also we all try to learn the dignities by term and face. What I don't understand is if a planet let's say to be dignified in one sign, has it to be in the same degree that shown in the essential dignities table. For example Mars dignifed in 30 degrees of Sag. Has it to be exactly 30 degree? What about it is on 28?
I have no head for numbers and this caused me no end of confusion, so I do hope that this explains it for you.

The first degree of Aries is not the same as Aries 1.00, the first degree of Aries is of course 0.00, the second degree is 1.00, the third, 2.00 and so on.

So if a person has the Moon at 6 degrees and 30 minutes of Leo, then the Moon is in the seventh degree of that sign, not the sixth.

So when you refer to your table of essential dignities, round the number that you see up, but don't just do this as habit, know why you are doing it. It is because, there are thirty degrees to a sign, but we include zero degrees in our count as the first degree, and as such, we don't see 30 degrees of anything depicted on charts.

So when you refer to your table of dignities, understand, that the first term of Jupiter, is depicted next to a '6', and this indicates that the term of Jupiter in Aries, runs from 0.00 - 5.59. You will see that the next term, of Venus, shows a Venus glyph with a number '14' next to it. This indicates that the terms of Venus run from 6.00 - 13.59.

Hopefully, you'll understand this.
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