Violence in a natal chart

I don't know.

There's the common myth that physical activity will make one less angry, which for me, at least, is untrue. Strenuous physical activity like sports make me more angry because I hate them so **** much. I have never felt too exhausted from physical activity to be angry.

But there's a much more dangerous common myth that expressions of anger are totally uncontrolled. This usually isn't true... because expressions of anger are often directed against those who are considered "weaker" when they have to be restrained against those who have power because the people with power can make one's position worse and can actually, in some cases, legally kill you.

I have a quote not from an astrology book but from Why Does He Do that? by Lundy Bandcroft, a book on spousal abuse. I had to massage it significantly to get it under the 100 word limit, but you can read the whole passage here (the person's notes have dirty words if that kind of thing bothers you)

“[...] She described the rages that my client Michael would have: ‘He just goes absolutely berserk,[...] He’ll just start grabbing whatever is around and throwing it.[...] And he smashes stuff, important things [...] Later he seems kind of ashamed of himself.’

"I asked Sheila two questions. The first was, when things got broken, were they Michael’s, or hers, or things that belonged to both of them? [...] she said, 'You know what? [...] he only breaks my stuff. I can’t think of one thing he’s smashed that belonged to him.’[...]

"I commented, 'See, Michael’s behavior isn’t nearly as berserk as it looks. [...].”

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While there are cases when people take out anger on authority figures, these cases are relatively few and far between compared to the amount of anger taken out on spouses, children, service workers... yes there may be more of them but there is a definite flow of anger downwards, based on feelings of inadequacy and a need for control.

My point is that I do not believe what most people call expressions of "Mars" to be, I guess, as dumb-brute as people think they are. "Mars," or whatever it is, is definitely going through some algorithms to decide whether this situation is 'safe' to act out against.

Like, exercise might work to stave off general crankiness. It absolutely does not work against this sort of thing, which sounds much more like the violence described in this thread.

I'm "spiny," fine. I am definitely capable of snapping at people (but who hasn't? We can't all be saints). I love getting into stupid debates over stupid things over the internet (everyone needs a hobby, I guess...). But this sort of behavior? As described in this thread? Absolutely beyond the pale.

I commented that only certain people would believe you to be a bad person from looking at your chart as there are various ways of expressing Mars energy depending on a person's choice. You then focused on only the extreme physical mode in reply.

As to form of physical expression, I have known many women to get into vigorous house cleaning to diffuse angry feelings as it serves a dual purpose. Sort of like a timeout for them to get their emotions under control or at least let them simmer down.

Just to make it clear, I did not indicate that expression of Martian energies was uncontrollable - just the opposite. The mode of expression of any emotion - love, disgust, anger,sadness, etc., is a choice.

unique_astrology said:

I commented that only certain people would believe you to be a bad person from looking at your chart as there are various ways of expressing Mars energy depending on a person's choice. You then focused on only the extreme physical mode in reply.

As to form of physical expression, I have known many women to get into vigorous house cleaning to diffuse angry feelings as it serves a dual purpose. Sort of like a timeout for them to get their emotions under control or at least let them simmer down.

Just to make it clear, I did not indicate that expression of Martian energies was uncontrollable - just the opposite. The mode of expression of any emotion - love, disgust, anger,sadness, etc., is a choice.

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I'm sorry, that post wasn't really a response to your post. At least it wasn't meant to be a direct response to you. It was more generally about this entire thread and trying to read the site you cited about Mars.

And maybe it also seems strange to me that whenever I see Mars brought up there's always this conjunction with recommendation of "physical activity" to "harmlessly remove that energy " and there hardly ever seems to be serious consideration to the fact that when you are angry, it could be a sign that there is actually something seriously wrong with your situation in life and doing everything in your power to remove that anger and therefore remain complacent is not actually a good idea. Like, is it just me who sees a definite thread of panem et circences when reading about what to do with a strong Mars?

Maybe this is a topic for another thread. I don't know.

I have found and ran into people with all these placements,and I keep saying Mars Square Saturn/Uranus is just as deadly or deadlier than Mars square Pluto

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i agree, yes.

mars Pluto is difficult in youth, later you can read in the faces of man, and can leads to very good people skill and have a touch of a incorruptable.

mars uranus saturn is fast driving into a wall or a tree ... (mostly no chance to survive in that case - Venus Pluto is the Survival axis 2/8 example exact ve/Pl for a rescuer against punishment to people sat/moon squ uranus http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Oskar_Schindler)

..,or for example a mountain, like the germanwings airplane, ...the tragedy and the hidden facts, this is Pluto. Some of the Victims there was shootet by Anders Behring Breivik on Utoya in Norway have mars Saturn in transit or natally triggered, i find out.

graay ghost said:

I don't know about that. I grew up in an abusive household in the suburbs so I had a "bad" upbringing. I never played any sports whatsoever -- always hated them and thought they were stupid and pointless. I was always extremely unathletic, anyway, so there's no "outlet," either. And I don't think anyone could actually describe me as violent. About the only "violent" thing I do, maybe, is swear.

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But were you forced to fight back outside of your house? Far as fist fighting other kids?

graay ghost said:

Now, I'm not exactly sure how to interpret that string of emoticons...

But after so much reading on astrology, it does seem like anyone looking at my chart would decide that I'm an awful person :/

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What are your hard aspects?

And what are their orb numbers?

Hephaistos said:

i agree, yes.

mars Pluto is difficult in youth, later you can read in the faces of man, and can leads to very good people skill and have a touch of a incorruptable.

mars uranus saturn is fast driving into a wall or a tree ... (mostly no chance to survive in that case - Venus Pluto is the Survival axis 2/8 example exact ve/Pl for a rescuer against punishment to people sat/moon squ uranus http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Oskar_Schindler)

..,or for example a mountain, like the germanwings airplane, ...the tragedy and the hidden facts, this is Pluto. Some of the Victims there was shootet by Anders Behring Breivik on Utoya in Norway have mars Saturn in transit or natally triggered, i find out.

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Yes, I agree Mars/Pluto hard aspects are very difficult during youth,and can either be used positive or negative when one gets older.

Mars/Uranus hard aspects is unpredictible anger/action

Mars/Saturn hard aspects are rage,because one who has this will get angry,but saturn will stop them from exploding,but when one has finally had enough,they finally blow and that's why I call it the "Incredible Hulk" aspect

But it also depends on one's orb values and how tightly those squares or oppositions are

positivevibes said:

What are your hard aspects?

And what are their orb numbers?

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Chart below, if you're curious:

View attachment 54929

graay ghost said:

Chart below, if you're curious:

View attachment 54929

Click to expand...

Sorry,don't know how to read charts yet

Mars/Saturn hard aspects are rage,because one who has this will get angry,but saturn will stop them from exploding,but when one has finally had enough,they finally blow and that's why I call it the "Incredible Hulk" aspect

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I like this Namecalling to constellations Like the "Hulk Aspect"

The Hulk aspect is in my Opinion Mars Saturn Pluto.

Why!?

I Agree with Mars Saturn to your Opinion.
But at Hulk you cannot see his incredible wrath, the Hulk his only to protect himself to bad influences and he can not control this, but protecting his life in a metaphor. like the survivability of life on earth that is the strongest ability on earth.
he's a shy guy but when he goes angry .... he say dont make me angry because the hell - dog = Pluto the rudimentary instinct awakens to protect his borders / body (Saturn) with anger (mars) do you ever see people who have activate this instinct'!? ... they have a incredible power for a short time and feel no hurt, hulk is a methaphor for this.

just my interpretation

Hephaistos said:

I like this Namecalling to constellations Like the "Hulk Aspect"

The Hulk aspect is in my Opinion Mars Saturn Pluto.

Why!?

I Agree with Mars Saturn to your Opinion.
But at Hulk you cannot see his incredible wrath, the Hulk his only to protect himself to bad influences and he can not control this, but protecting his life in a metaphor. like the survivability of life on earth that is the strongest ability on earth.
he's a shy guy but when he goes angry .... he say dont make me angry because the hell - dog = Pluto the rudimentary instinct awakens to protect his borders / body (Saturn) with anger (mars) do you ever see people who have activate this instinct'!? ... they have a incredible power for a short time and feel no hurt, hulk is a methaphor for this.

just my interpretation

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So you think Mars/Saturn gives one incredible strength and ability to feel no pain when angry? Or Hard aspects between Mars/Saturn AND Mars/Pluto

I read on another site that labeled Mars/Saturn hard aspect also the "Incredible Hulk"


http://www.theastrologyplace.uk/2012/01/mars-saturn-you-wouldnt-like-me-when-im.html

Makes sense

While it is not on violence as correlated to a natal astrology chart in general, there's a paper on statistical analysis on the natal charts of serial killers.

Statistical Analysis of the Birth Charts of Serial Killers by Jan Ruis, PhD

I have not had time to completely scour the methods of this paper but and interesting thing it finds is that aspects to Mars from Saturn and Pluto are not positively correlated to being a serial killer.

I've been trying to look up this Jan Ruis fellow. He seems to be Dutch and I'm trying to figure out what he has a PhD in and have thus far been unsuccessful -- maybe he's some kind of mathematician/statistician, or could study alternative religious practices, who knows. Anyway, the paper is on the site for the NVWOA, the Dutch Society for Scientific Research into Astrology. Possibly the reason I can't find anything on him is because it's all in Dutch. He does have a LinkedIn profile, but I can't view it as I don't have a profile myself.

graay ghost said:

While it is not on violence as correlated to a natal astrology chart in general, there's a paper on statistical analysis on the natal charts of serial killers.

Statistical Analysis of the Birth Charts of Serial Killers by Jan Ruis, PhD

I have not had time to completely scour the methods of this paper but and interesting thing it finds is that aspects to Mars from Saturn and Pluto are not positively correlated to being a serial killer.

I've been trying to look up this Jan Ruis fellow. He seems to be Dutch and I'm trying to figure out what he has a PhD in and have thus far been unsuccessful -- maybe he's some kind of mathematician/statistician, or could study alternative religious practices, who knows. Anyway, the paper is on the site for the NVWOA, the Dutch Society for Scientific Research into Astrology. Possibly the reason I can't find anything on him is because it's all in Dutch. He does have a LinkedIn profile, but I can't view it as I don't have a profile myself.

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No one is saying Mars hard aspects to Saturn,Uranus and Pluto makes one extremely violent,but where there's smoke there's fire,most professional astrologers believe those are three very violent aspects.

But once again the orbits play a role as well, if someone has those aspects but the orb value is an 8 they may not feel the negative energies as much as someone who's orb values with those aspects are at 0 or 1,big big difference

i actually think it depends... i have mars in aries and for myself i would say i'm not violent even though i do have the typical arian temperament.. my grandma has mars in scorpio and is far from violent

and there comes my sister who has mars in cancer and yes i could say she can be violent but the thing is, she has aries moon and mars conjunct lilith and i'm pretty sure those are big factors influencing her anger.
Also my dad... he has libra mars in 8th house and scorpio rising and nessus in first house.
I think plutonian types, 8th house influences, lilith,planets in scorpio and some 'bad asteroids' are the biggest factors

positivevibes said:

No one is saying Mars hard aspects to Saturn,Uranus and Pluto makes one extremely violent,but where there's smoke there's fire,most professional astrologers believe those are three very violent aspects.
But once again the orbits play a role as well, if someone has those aspects but the orb value is an 8 they may not feel the negative energies as much as someone who's orb values with those aspects are at 0 or 1,big big difference

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Just for research/learning purposes. I have mars square uranus 2 degrees. saturn square uranus 8 degrees. And I have never been violent toward anyone, ever. I am very unsettled by violent behavior or seeing expressions of it. The only thing I am guilty of is feeling intense dislike sometimes toward people, who I just avoid altogether or ignore. And the mercury/pluto aspect can make me say the craziest creative **** when upset. but that is as far as it goes.

The 2nd chart is someone who I know has been violent, mostly toward women, and also has violent outburts(i.e. throwing, breaking things, yelling), when stressed. Saturn/Uranus/Moon are all locked in a t-square. And Mars is square Pluto.
It's kind of a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome with him. He is not a bad person either, just has serious temper issues. He does cardio daily, and says it really helps him release tension.

I agree with most everything said here about difficult aspects to Mars especially if the aspected planets fall in fixed signs and there are multiple difficult aspects. But most of the examples here speak of violence that erupts suddenly out of anger or frustration. But there are people who commit very violent acts in very unemotional ways that are very calculated and premeditated.

Is Bill Cosby's premeditated acts of rape a form of violence? What about Andrea Yates who drowned her 4 children? Or Charles Manson who didn't commit the act of murder himself but was able to get his followers to do it for him? Manson's Mars has no difficult aspects, it is sextile Sun and Venus. But he has Pluto and the Black Moon on his nodal axis and these planets square Uranus. Cosby also has the Black Moon on a Node with Orcus and Venus on the opposite node and these nodes square his Moon/Neptune conjunction. Andrea Yates also has the Black Moon and Orcus on the Nodes, but she also has Mars afflictions with Mars square Uranus and Pluto.

There was a woman here in Ohio a few years back who stalked a pregnant neighbor and murdered her, then performed c-section to get the infant for her own. (This woman's chart is on the Astrodatabank at Astrodienst look for Michelle Bica. ) She has no hard aspects to Mars either unless you include a wide conjunction to Orcus, but Pluto and the Moon are on her nodes and the Black Moon is in a t-square with Neptune and the Sun.

I've collected charts of many famous serial killers and many do not have hard Mars aspects. Ted Bundy does have Mars and Moon opposite Uranus but Orcus and the Nodes and the Black Moon are also in this aspect. His chart really stands out.

other serial killers;
Peter Sutcliffe has no hard Mars aspects but Orcus and Uranus fall on the nodes and the Black Moon on the Asc.
David Berkowitz: Orcus is conjunct Mars making an inconjunct to the Moon and Chrion and the Node.
John wayne Gacy: Mars has no aspects to outer planets only a square to Mercury unless you allow an 8 degree orb then it is conjunct Uranus. But Orcus squares the Nodes and Jupiter, the chart ruler. The Black Moon squares his Sun/Moon conjunction.
Harold Shipman: Mars is conj. Saturn opposite his Sun and Venus. Orcus is conjunct his Uranus and Moon and opposing the Black Moon.

Another chart that really stands out although I am not certain if his crimes were the result of spontaneous passion/anger or more premeditated like the serial killers above, is Joran van der Sloot. He has a large stellium with Sun, Mars, Venus Orcus and the Black Moon all making a square to Pluto His nodes square Moon and Neptune.

It appears that Orcus and the Black Moon and the Nodes are common components in the tense aspects of these charts. Pluto or the Moon on the Nodes appears fairly frequently too. It seems to take more than a couple of these combinations to produce such violent tendencies. But I am certain that there are other persons born at the same times and dates as many of these killers who have not committed these horrible crimes.

So, there is likely another component(s) that cannot be determined by looking at a chart.

Barb at thelivingsky.wordpress.com

ashriia said:

Just for research/learning purposes. I have mars square uranus 2 degrees. saturn square uranus 8 degrees. And I have never been violent toward anyone, ever. I am very unsettled by violent behavior or seeing expressions of it. The only thing I am guilty of is feeling intense dislike sometimes toward people, who I just avoid altogether or ignore. And the mercury/pluto aspect can make me say the craziest creative **** when upset. but that is as far as it goes.

The 2nd chart is someone who I know has been violent, mostly toward women, and also has violent outburts(i.e. throwing, breaking things, yelling), when stressed. Saturn/Uranus/Moon are all locked in a t-square. And Mars is square Pluto.

It's kind of a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome with him. He is not a bad person either, just has serious temper issues. He does cardio daily, and says it really helps him release tension.

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the nodes rahu-ketu over libra-aries,

airy libra especially rahu-libra can tilt balance, provoked to stormy anger when provoked, though otherwise calm and composed, objective-fair, social, artistic, etc

ketu separative node fiery aries hyper sensitive and impulsive, attention seeking, action oriented, accident prone.



kshantaram

positivevibes said:

Here are the other Hard Mars aspects that this author thoroughly explained besides Pluto which he didn't do:

[Quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator - taken from this website: http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng06.htm ]

The Sun square or opposition to Mars endows the person with an abundance of energy...

Venus square or opposition to Mars gives a very voluptuous and sensuous disposition, liable to gross excesses in the gratification of the passions which will sap the vitality...

Mercury square or opposition to Mars makes people quick-witted, sharp and alert, quick-tempered, impulsive and excitable, liable to jump at conclusions and act before they think...

Saturn conjunction, parallel, square or opposition to Mars are thoroughly bad aspects indicating a selfish, violent, harsh and cruel nature...

Jupiter square or opposition to Mars is the signature of the gambler...

Uranus conjunction, parallel, square, or opposition to Mars gives an erratic and eccentric disposition...

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According to that book, I'm a sadistic, womanizing anarchist prone to demon possession, so I'd take that book's fatalism with a grain of salt. Most flaws can be turned into strengths if you work hard enough at it.

deepseafish said:

According to that book, I'm a sadistic, womanizing anarchist prone to demon possession,
so I'd take that book's fatalism with a grain of salt.
Most flaws can be turned into strengths if you work hard enough at it.

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You've highlighted the failure of 'one-size-fits-all school of astrology'
closely aligned with the 'cookbook school of astrology'
both of which are only able to generalise
and
generalisation although fun, is unreliable

and here's why more work is required in order to more reliably delineate

positivevibes said:

Here are the other Hard Mars aspects that this author thoroughly explained:
[Quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator - taken from this website: http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng06.htm]

The Sun square or opposition to Mars
endows the person with an abundance of energy...

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That's a gross over-simplification
because
no mention is made of the SIGN
occupied by either planet

i.e.
Sun may be in any one of twelve different signs
Mars may be in any one of twelve different signs
that already offers 144 possible variations
and there are more

positivevibes said:

Venus square or opposition to Mars
gives a very voluptuous and sensuous disposition,
liable to gross excesses in the gratification of the passions
which will sap the vitality...

Click to expand...

another gross over-simplification for the reasons previously stated
also
unless Venus and Mars are in domicile
the ruling planet of the sign occupied by Venus or Mars
has an influence on the delineation as well
and so on

thelivingsky said:

I agree with most everything said here about difficult aspects to Mars especially if the aspected planets fall in fixed signs and there are multiple difficult aspects. But most of the examples here speak of violence that erupts suddenly out of anger or frustration. But there are people who commit very violent acts in very unemotional ways that are very calculated and premeditated.

Is Bill Cosby's premeditated acts of rape a form of violence? What about Andrea Yates who drowned her 4 children? Or Charles Manson who didn't commit the act of murder himself but was able to get his followers to do it for him? Manson's Mars has no difficult aspects, it is sextile Sun and Venus. But he has Pluto and the Black Moon on his nodal axis and these planets square Uranus. Cosby also has the Black Moon on a Node with Orcus and Venus on the opposite node and these nodes square his Moon/Neptune conjunction. Andrea Yates also has the Black Moon and Orcus on the Nodes, but she also has Mars afflictions with Mars square Uranus and Pluto.

There was a woman here in Ohio a few years back who stalked a pregnant neighbor and murdered her, then performed c-section to get the infant for her own. (This woman's chart is on the Astrodatabank at Astrodienst look for Michelle Bica. ) She has no hard aspects to Mars either unless you include a wide conjunction to Orcus, but Pluto and the Moon are on her nodes and the Black Moon is in a t-square with Neptune and the Sun.

I've collected charts of many famous serial killers and many do not have hard Mars aspects. Ted Bundy does have Mars and Moon opposite Uranus but Orcus and the Nodes and the Black Moon are also in this aspect. His chart really stands out.

other serial killers;
Peter Sutcliffe has no hard Mars aspects but Orcus and Uranus fall on the nodes and the Black Moon on the Asc.
David Berkowitz: Orcus is conjunct Mars making an inconjunct to the Moon and Chrion and the Node.
John wayne Gacy: Mars has no aspects to outer planets only a square to Mercury unless you allow an 8 degree orb then it is conjunct Uranus. But Orcus squares the Nodes and Jupiter, the chart ruler. The Black Moon squares his Sun/Moon conjunction.
Harold Shipman: Mars is conj. Saturn opposite his Sun and Venus. Orcus is conjunct his Uranus and Moon and opposing the Black Moon.

Another chart that really stands out although I am not certain if his crimes were the result of spontaneous passion/anger or more premeditated like the serial killers above, is Joran van der Sloot. He has a large stellium with Sun, Mars, Venus Orcus and the Black Moon all making a square to Pluto His nodes square Moon and Neptune.

It appears that Orcus and the Black Moon and the Nodes are common components in the tense aspects of these charts. Pluto or the Moon on the Nodes appears fairly frequently too. It seems to take more than a couple of these combinations to produce such violent tendencies. But I am certain that there are other persons born at the same times and dates as many of these killers who have not committed these horrible crimes.

So, there is likely another component(s) that cannot be determined by looking at a chart.

Barb at thelivingsky.wordpress.com

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Agreed.

I certainly do not think hard Mars aspects are the only signs of violence,that's why this thread was created,as I'm trying to find out what other aspects could lead to one being violent.

But as I said before:

Mars-Uranus
Mars-Saturn
Mars-Pluto

Hard aspects,can give one very violent behavior if it is not channeled correctly,or if there is an outlet for their negative energy.

Of course,I think Moon and Mercury plays a part as well,as that has to do with one's emotions(Moon) and one's thinking(Mercury)

Pluto hard aspects to Orcus could be deadly as well