A new twist on Modern Psychological Astrology

ardentika said:

Yep, I have. And they can suggest a psychiatrist who can prescribe pills if they think the case is too difficult. Also in my group there were a few young women on anti depressants. Beats me how they got them.

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Presumably through a prescription from a family doctor (or student health services for universities.) I went the other route once for PTSD, being referred to a psychiatrist who said he could prescribe me something if I wanted to "take the edge off" (I didn't,) who then referred me to a Ph. D. clinical psychologist for weekly counseling sessions.

My husband and I have also been to marriage counselors.

But here's the thing, and to get back to the OP linked article. It takes a psychologist the first three sessions to even get her arms around the client's problems. Then s/he tries to get the client to the point of gaining some mastery over their problems. Probably this takes a few years. Sometimes the clients are seriously suicidal, or so agoraphobic or prone to panic attacks that they can barely leave the house. (These clients aren't just a bunch of cry-babies who need to develop a little backbone, AppLeo.)

My former employer paid for some counseling sessions out of my benefits package, but not nearly enough to go through a regular course of treatment. I could afford to pay for weekly sessions out-of-pocket, but many clients can't. For one thing, it is hard for someone terrified of leaving the house to hold down a job.

There are some United Way agencies like Catholic Family services that offer low-cost sessions on a sliding pay scale (no, you don't have to be Catholic,) but a typical urban clinical psychologist with a Ph. D. might charge $150 per hour for weekly sessions. Or more.

Which is why the unemployed author of the OP article sought the services of a professional astrologer as a cheaper alternative. Unfortunately a lot of professional astrologers aren't even that knowledgeable or helpful, because there is no state-run licensing system. Some are wonderful, but "you pays your money and you takes your chances."

ardentika said:

AppLeo you are kinda contradicting your own self. First it sounds like you don't support the idea of government helping with mental issues then you don't approve the help of astrology either...
Obviously there is a mass problem with mental health issues, may it be due to the Scorpio Pluto generation, or whatever else, it is a problem. And when there is a problem there must be a solution.
Many certified psychologists are complete sh*t. Since psychology became mainstream 20y ago it's full of them.

Astrology is etirely based on our psyche. Whatever we observe becomes reality. As much as there is fate, there is free will. If you go back to begining of astrology you can't say who delivered the knowledge of what palnets represent or what's their energy. It was still assigned BY humans.
So again its us experiencing ourselves, finding ways outside to look deep within.
Now, imagine how far we have gone (Pluto, Uranus, Neptune) to look deeper within ourselves. We are still influenced by energies out of our control, since after all we are students, but we can chose how to work with them and transform them. And here is where astrology comes in handy with mental issues. Each mental issue is a result from past life karma. Sometimes the clearance or karma is so intense on a soul level, the conscious human mind cannot take it and locks it down in the subconscious plane. And that's when things go wrong in the 3d. And here I'm talking about severe issues.
However there are mild ones that often times get blown out of proportion. Example, bipolar 3 is cosidered by many psychologists "spoiled kid sydrome" . So there you have it.

Many visit psychologists cos they are mainstream and "certified" and that immediately "promises" success in the mind of those who visit them. Because those people are usually so desperate to cure themselves and have a normal life that they hope for a miracle and are ready to pay the necessary price. However, they go for all the wrong methods. Pills can't cure your soul or your psyche. Period.
Theycan promise you a lifetime of misery and no true happiness since they supress the real problem.

Astrology here can point out the REAL problem quite fast. But just as any therapist says they cannot work for their clients or do the work for them. The patient must be willing to work on themselves, cooperate and follow guidence.
Same with astrology. That's why most modern astrologers are good psychologists. Because one goes with the other. You won't see a traditional astrologer that will offer such help because they focus on predictions and fatedness. "It is what it is, deal with it" which is bullshitz.
Perhaps thats where mass depression kicked in, because as our consciousness expands people feel trapped and victimized by higher power they don't understand. I don't ever even open the Traditional Astrology forum. Tried t a few times, depely regret it.

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I said I don’t want to the government to support people financially.

As far as the government having the legal power to certify people and give and take away licenses, I don’t necessarily agree, but if someone is certified they are probably better than some random guy on the street. Most astrologers have no psychology certification so...

Astrology isn’t nearly as good as solving people’s mental illnesses

For example, someone with OCD isn’t going to really get help from an astrologer. But a psychologist will actually be able to help.

For other things, astrology may server better than psychology.

waybread said:

But here's the thing, and to get back to the OP linked article. It takes a psychologist the first three sessions to even get her arms around the client's problems. Then s/he tries to get the client to the point of gaining some mastery over their problems. Probably this takes a few years. Sometimes the clients are seriously suicidal, or so agoraphobic or prone to panic attacks that they can barely leave the house. (These clients aren't just a bunch of cry-babies who need to develop a little backbone, AppLeo.)

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Well obviously those clients need help.

But the woman in the article... she's just depressed because she chose an unstable career and is depressed because it's not working out. And then when she wanted the government to pay for it... Like nonono. Not getting the "poor you" from me.

And if you're a normal person who's just having trouble, and you're seeing a psychologist for 6 months or longer... Like jesus. You're just paying someone to listen to your problems instead of dealing with them.

AppLeo, I'm not going to get into your reactionary politics.

I wonder, however, how much experience you have with psychologists and the reasons why clients seek them out. In my case, back around 1990, I was experiencing massive amounts of stress, which were triggering my normally dormant PTSD. One symptom of some people with PTSD is "splitting," where their minds simply lose contact with their everyday surroundings. I was getting this sensation of my mind "going south" at rather critical times, like when walking down a staircase (so I could have fallen) or in the midst of teaching a class. Suddenly I would have no idea of the next point in the lecture, in front of a lot of students, for example.

I put myself into therapy when I had a splitting episode while driving, and caused a minor car accident. This was at low speed in a parking lot, but imagine had I been driving in rush hour traffic when this happened.

As an amateur astrologer I sometimes interact with people who are suicidal, or who are so afraid of going outside that they cannot work. What about the students who are bullied loners, who one day turn into school shooters? Apart from combat veterans with PTSD, it affects children and adults who have experienced a major trauma.

Someone with a psychological disorder may look perfectly normal to you on the outside, but you does them--and you yourself-- no good to imagine that they can somehow snap out of an episode of suicidal depression or OCD. One theory about mental illness is that some of it has to do with hereditary brain chemistry, not a weak sense of personal responsibility.

If these people cannot work due to their severe mental health problems, then what? Your dystopian, misanthropic views would do what? Turn them out on the street? As it is, our homeless populations and prisons are full of people with untreated mental health problems.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/numbers-mental-illness-behind-bars

As astrologers, I think sometimes the best we can do is listen. Maybe point out a tough transit and when it will pass. Ask if they've looked at United Way mental health services in their communities that operate on a sliding pay scale. Suggest that the chart shows that they had a rotten childhood. Most of us are not going to become credentialed psychologists, but we can do our best to keep informed.

waybread said:

AppLeo, I'm not going to get into your reactionary politics.

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That's cool. I'm just saying what I believe.

waybread said:

I wonder, however, how much experience you have with psychologists and the reasons why clients seek them out. In my case, back around 1990, I was experiencing massive amounts of stress, which were triggering my normally dormant PTSD. One symptom of some people with PTSD is "splitting," where their minds simply lose contact with their everyday surroundings. I was getting this sensation of my mind "going south" at rather critical times, like when walking down a staircase (so I could have fallen) or in the midst of teaching a class. Suddenly I would have no idea of the next point in the lecture, in front of a lot of students, for example.

I put myself into therapy when I had a splitting episode while driving, and caused a minor car accident. This was at low speed in a parking lot, but imagine had I been driving in rush hour traffic when this happened.

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So you got the help you needed by going to therapy. Everything worked out great. You didn't go to an astrologer when you weren't supposed to. And you actually went because you had something related to PTSD, not some other nonsense.

I've had experience with therapists/psychologists. My experience with them was not that great, if you ask me. I didn't have any underlying mental illness. I was actually forced to go by my parents because they thought I was "depressed." This was around 9th grade for me. And yeah, I was really gloomy, but there was nothing wrong with me. It was everything around me and society. The fact that I was going to school not understanding the point, having no friends, having no valuable skills, being on the phone all the time, having no goals, not getting enough sleep, not eating enough, nor exercising. That's why I was miserable. But the dumb therapists were never able to understand that was the problem because they're part of the problem. It was just pointless.

And a psychologist/psychiatrist is only employed when there are mentally ill people. I can't help but feel like their end goal is to leave you even more discombobulated and confused then you were before. And to focus on problems that aren't actually problems, and create problems where none exist.

I think that's why I turned to astrology, or found astrology so interesting, because it kind of just got me. Like finally, things make sense now. Natal charts only need to ask you one question to know everything about you. What's your birthday? And then done.

waybread said:

As an amateur astrologer I sometimes interact with people who are suicidal, or who are so afraid of going outside that they cannot work. What about the students who are bullied loners, who one day turn into school shooters? Apart from combat veterans with PTSD, it affects children and adults who have experienced a major trauma.

Someone with a psychological disorder may look perfectly normal to you on the outside, but you does them--and you yourself-- no good to imagine that they can somehow snap out of an episode of suicidal depression or OCD. One theory about mental illness is that some of it has to do with hereditary brain chemistry, not a weak sense of personal responsibility.

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Mental illness is certainly more complicated, confusing and crippling compared to a physical illness. A broken leg is easy to fix. But schizophrenia? I have no idea where to begin.

waybread said:

If these people cannot work due to their severe mental health problems, then what? Your dystopian, misanthropic views would do what? Turn them out on the street? As it is, our homeless populations and prisons are full of people with untreated mental health problems.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/numbers-mental-illness-behind-bars

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Well that suks for them. I don't know how to help them. Usually people have friends or family to rely on if they need psychological help. But if they don't, then oh well. We live in a material world, where not everyone is going to get everything they need.

Besides, I value people's freedom. I don't want them to be enslaved by mentally ill people. Mentally ill people are burdens and nobody wants them. No one should have to deal with them, if nobody wants to. To fix these people would take a ton of money and work. And the success rate isn't going to be 100%. Some people are broken for life, so for many, there's not even a point in trying to help them.

That's why I love America because no else is your priority. You are your only priority. For the first time in history, you can just care about yourself instead of others, or society, or the country, or the greater good, or God. I think that's a beautiful idea. You don't have to help anyone if you don't want to. America aims to reward, serve, and help the mentally sane, hard-working, intelligent, and beautiful – to prosper and achieve the very best they can.

The diseased, poor, unintelligent, lazy... they are not receiving any help as far as I'm concerned.

Again, my crazy politics, but you asked.

waybread said:

As astrologers, I think sometimes the best we can do is listen. Maybe point out a tough transit and when it will pass. Ask if they've looked at United Way mental health services in their communities that operate on a sliding pay scale. Suggest that the chart shows that they had a rotten childhood. Most of us are not going to become credentialed psychologists, but we can do our best to keep informed.

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I think that's great. If you can help, then help. Especially if people can't get a psychologist, an astrologer is nice to have. Or having someone to just talk to is always great.

Personally, I feel like astrology and psychology go hand and hand. You kind of need both if you really wanna get the best results.

Being able to see things from another person's point of view is often beneficial, and Astrology can help with that. Humor is good too, IF you can connect in that way, although it's not always possible.
This guy was known for saying, "Try walking a mile in the other fellow's shoes." When they caught him, he'd stolen over a hundred pairs!

Back to astrology, to All

All,

Please get back to astrology. While "psychological astrology" is a wide-ranging topic, please find some way to keep the "psychology" attached to "astrology".

Back on topic,

Tim

I've incorporated Freud's concept of the Conscious, Subconscious and Unconscious into my Astrological paradigm. It wasn't deliberate--they just fit right in. I was surprised that Jung appears to have dropped the Subconscious, and worked with only the Conscious and Unconscious, but from Jung, I got the concept of the "Collective" versions of what I've labelled the "Three Realms of Awareness" ("Realms", rather than "levels"). I have the Cardinal-signs mainly attuned to the Conscious, Fixed-sIgns to the Subconscious, and Unconscious for the Mutables.
From what I've seen of the most modern psychology, it appears to be so heavily focused on behavior and the use of dangerous pharmaceutical drugs to control thought, mood, and actions, that I can't use it as an adjunct to my version of Astrology.

Re: Back to astrology, to All

IleneK said:

attached...

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Have modern psychologists been attacking Astrology of late? That might have been a "Freudian slip"!

Agreed.

The point of studying astrology 4 me...is to have a better understanding of natural/basic human behaviors & emotions of myself and others, which is quite similar to Physiology.

Physiology is on a person to person basis, not so much of a broad spectrum of people. It’s easier to have facts and proof to back up the info on one person vs trying to keep the same info consistent/true for 1/12th the population.

Therefore psychology is a respected science, while astrology is often mocked by actual scientists.

The study of psychology or medicine will not necessarily result in being a therapist, or, at least, in being a good therapist. Though the knowledge gain could be used in research and many other areas.

To be a therapist it's needed empathy, high sense of ethics, and lots of social/emotional skills that can't be achieved by doing courses.

In this way, there are Astrologers (so as healers of many "non-accepted" kind of therapies/sciences/practices) which are awesome therapists, just as there are Astrologers that would never want to be; this is not due to the science of Astrology, though.

Astrology is more scientifically accurate than psychology anyway

waybread said:

"My Insurance Doesn't Cover Therapy so I'm Talking to an Astrologer Instead," by Maria Del Russo.

https://www.thelily.com/my-insurance-doesnt-cover-therapy-so-im-talking-to-an-astrologer-instead/

I caught this article in the Washington Post this morning. I sometimes feel that those of us who read charts for people are being asked to substitute for licensed therapists, which is probably not a good thing. I describe what I do as dispensing kitchen-table advice, the way I would do if a friend dropped by and asked for advice about a problem s/he was facing. I sometimes recommend that people ask their MD for a referral to a licensed therapist, such as a clinical psychologist.

Of course, the author's insurance wouldn't cover sessions with an astrologer, either; but probably he's a lot cheaper.

What is your reaction to this article?

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My reaction, this is probably the most sanest article I've read.

Place aside safety concerns for each indiviual and what you have is an astrologer willing to unblindfold himself to make in real time, observations, that one could only wish to see done in Medical Astrology.

Am I wrong???

A lot of people who study and practice astrology have an interest in the psych aspect and I've met more than a few astrologers with degrees in psych or medical fields. It is a useful tool for their purpose to help others. Sometimes good listeners and reflectors is all it takes. I think astrologers can be useful as an alternative to traditional psych if the issues are about adjustments, temporary stalls in life, hard decisions and such. Even the mother Theresa Neptune savior storys like putting up with it to gain rewards as needed and qualified. Severe mental illness needs more professional help. So do some astrologers. I tend to look at those who pump trad medical and psych over general human astrology suspect. Give it your neighborhood shot first, right? Many in our midst who have real experience and wisdom without what books or newspapers tell them.

I've seen many times in groups, on forums and publications - where advice on relationship issues and suggestions on work areas sounds as good as any therapist I've been to. I imagine their is room for abuse and vulnerability, but I see value in trying astrology counseling for relationships.

**however - I did not appreciate when an astrologer once suggested I search out marriage counseling for a well-disclosed and understood and accommodated modified adjustment to living with my husband who has a difficult stellium with attached aspects, whch I offered immediately - through planetary analysis. The person's first response was get professional counseling, while I put it out for astrology and spouse complaints, which I'm sure many here are afraid to do after such as ridiculous worldly response on an astrology site. Who are you people?

Sorry, Tandy, do you mean me? I responded briefly to your "spousal complaint" thread.

I don't know if you have ever been in marriage counseling. My husband and I have been married 22 years. We've been in marriage counseling several times. Basically I think the counselors try to (a) understand your situation, and (b) get you to the point of solving your own problems.

There is no stigma attached to going in for marriage counseling. It is a sign that two people are willing to work on their relationship, and think they would benefit from some professional input.

When I do chart readings for people who disclose troubling situations in their lives, I offer what I call "kitchen table advice." Although I worked in a career for many years where I was called upon to give advice to colleagues and students, I-- like most amateur and professional astrologers-- have no background in psychology or counseling.

Unfortunately, I have seen amateur astrologers on this and another astrology forum give really bad advice to people, both out of astrological ignorance and a kind of misanthropy. Maybe you've seen these posts, from the Dr. Doom School of Astrological Negativity. Some of these amateur astrologers are not out to be helpful to people, but seem to take a perverse pleasure in putting others down.

Sometimes professional astrologers behave this way, as well.

This is why I think that if someone is dealing with a difficult spouse, that marriage counseling is probably a better option than relying on astrologers. For one thing, In a forum like this, we never hear the spouse's side of the story. Possibly we can learn how the poster contributes to marital problems, oftentimes by seeing the stressors in her own chart, but generally this isn't what s/he wants to hear.

I mean, I could read whatever chart you put before me and say something about the spouses and their individual and joint issues. Would that get you somewhere? It might, but unfortunately, too often, unhappy people don't want "the truth" from the horoscopes. They merely want validation for their complaints, dressed up with a few astrological niceties.

I am not saying you are like this, but it happens a lot. (I've been studying astrology since 1990 and reading charts on-line for people for over 11 years.)

So my question to you would be, what do you really want? Responses that might give you a happier marriage or a clear pathway to divorce? Or some commiseration for your situation couched in astrological terms that merely reinforces what you already believe?

(continued from my previous post)

I got into astrology during a really difficult time in my life-- the center just wasn't holding. At the time I knew almost no astrology, but I struggled with the question, "Why am I on the planet?" Not me as a generic human being, but me, as an individual. I dimly recalled that astrology did look at people as unique individuals. I was fortunate, in the days prior to so much material on the Internet, that there was a really good New Age book store in my community. I bought a lot of books, and was hooked.

However, there are times in any of the helping professions where the practioners realize-- or ought to realize-- the limits to what they can offer the client. For example, maybe the family doctor decides that the patient should see a specialist. On this forum, for example, we are not able to respond to posters who claim to be suicidal. Instead, they are asked to contact the nearest suicide hot line. I've sometimes recommended to partners of alcoholics that they think about joining Al Anon. We all face situations above our pay grade.

As astrologers, we can do a lot with synastry, individual, and composite charts in analyzing a troubled marriage. However, this doesn't bring the spouse to the table. I have yet to see both members of a couple start a thread where both ask for insights on the marriage. Usually there's an aggrieved partner. This can happen in real life, as well, where one spouse goes in for counseling and the other refuses.

But I do get suspicious of OPs with the apparent purpose of making someone else out to be bad and wrong. For me to answer a question that essentially asks, "Why is my husband such a colossal jerk?" would, to me personally, be a misuse of astrology. The spouse didn't ask to be set up in this negative way. I'd rather look at two human beings, each bringing assets and difficulties to the relationship, and go from there.

We're all flawed human beings.

Yeah but some human beings are less flawed than others.

Intresting read on a few highly educated psychologist (mentor Anna Freud) who sinisterly experimented on seperating twins as a twinning experiment guised under research of mental illness on twins, which many know is far from the truth.

https://naap.org/ethics-psychoanalytic-research-three-identical-strangers/


Point in short even highly educated, certified, well reputed individuals can be morally corrupt.

There are no laws regulated on Astrology.
Laws regulating business, yes of course! Astrology itself, no.