Moon Squares: am I really so scary?!

Irisiel

Well-known member
I'm a Moon square Pluto. Apparently this means everything from can't -let-it-go to self-destruction. Ticking time bomb! :andy:

I'm also Moon square Mercury, Moon square Chiron, Moon square Saturn, and Moon square Uranus. And it's been dawning on me for some time that I AM my own worst enemy, but am I stuck like this forever?

The thing that has really forced the issue is now, 2 years later, I'm struggling to move beyond the death of my big brother. It was untimely and hard for all of us: my parents in their 80s buried their son. My sister-in-law, having been married to him 30 years, was largely doped up and sleeping away that 1st year.

But my anger and repressed pain outlived even her bereavement. I was gonna show the universe just how long and how stubbornly I could fight against accepting his death.

Now I see this is classic Moon Square Pluto, and it's been holding me back all kinds of ways. I have huge trust issues, not the least of which with myself. I'm unattached at age 55 and emotionally isolated, blaming all kinds of things (genius, neurological issues, my buck teeth) for why no one understands me.

Okay, it's never been complete gloom and doom! :biggrin: but you get the point. I'm trying really hard right now to get past all these self-inflicted obstacles and trust myself to be of use to others.

I've had a lot of cool things happen in my life, even some minor miracles, and I'm a writer, but have trouble believing I could ever connect with others enough for my writing to be useful, either.

Is there hope in the knowledge that I'm gleaning here from astrology?


(adding natal chart)
NatalIrisiel.jpg
 
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Irisiel

Well-known member
PS I forgot one of the biggie questions!

I'm only just at the start of learning how to read a Transit Chart. What would I look for to see if this Big Bad MoonSquarePluto beast is being particularly activated at certain times?

'Cause it really does feel like there have been periods in my life when it's really taken over. It would be nice to know when I can attribute a problematic stubbornness to something other than pure logic and "let it go".
 

Zora

Account Closed
PS I forgot one of the biggie questions!

I'm only just at the start of learning how to read a Transit Chart. What would I look for to see if this Big Bad MoonSquarePluto beast is being particularly activated at certain times?

'Cause it really does feel like there have been periods in my life when it's really taken over. It would be nice to know when I can attribute a problematic stubbornness to something other than pure logic and "let it go".


Yes- you are right - transiting jupiter activates your pluto end right now- by trine. And gets your 3rd house up and activated - mind, thoughts, communication, neigbhourhood and siblings.


You can easily found out yourself as well by following up the ephemeris - daily planet transits.


https://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/2000/ae_2020.pdf


If a meaningful transiting planet - like jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune and pluto gets on same exact degree where one of your planets is exact on - it gets activated and its house subject as well.


.
 

katydid

Well-known member
I looked at your chart, and there were so many squares---I was worried for you.

Upon closer inspection, I realised that you had the aspects drawn in for every asteroid or planetary point in your chart. So that is deceiving. :bandit:

I think it would be better for your soul if you change the settings on the natal chart to just the planets, not all other points and angles.

That way you can get a clearer look at your aspects and upcoming transits. :ninja:
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
I think it would be better for your soul if you change the settings on the natal chart to just the planets, not all other points and angles.

That way you can get a clearer look at your aspects and upcoming transits. :ninja:

Particularly in my other new post about my Natal Chart, but also here, the whole deal is that I've been convinced my chart was HORRIBLY depressing -- back when it was just planets.

Now I'm discovering new things, the various axes and BML, I hope will give more hope, if I knew how to interpret them. For ex, my moon's NN and SN axis almost correspond to my MC and IC. I had thought everyone's did!
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
I'm trying really hard right now to get past all these self-inflicted obstacles and trust myself to be of use to others.

Whoopsie, looks like JUPITER is transiting my 12th House since Dec.19--that corresponds precisely to my Christmas Day resolution to "suck it up" and start reaching out to others who could use help.

Amazing.
 

OuterPlanets89

Well-known member
Whoopsie, looks like JUPITER is transiting my 12th House since Dec.19--that corresponds precisely to my Christmas Day resolution to "suck it up" and start reaching out to others who could use help.

Amazing.
From the chart you attached (with your ASC in late Virgo), it would mean the Saturn/Pluto conjunction currently occurring is happening in your natal 4th house -- with Jupiter also there now.

This is a tough transit for anyone, and 4th House is as personal (family) as it gets. Not to mention your natal Cancer Venus/Mars are loosely opposite the conjunction, and Pluto was probably pretty closely opposite your Venus/Mars 2 years ago when your brother passed.

I've found that Jupiter transits aren't always positive, but they tend to expand the energies in place in your life, and magnify the state of natal planets that it is in hard aspect to. With the the heavyweights Saturn/Pluto causing heaviness/transformation in your 4th, and Jupiter now joining them, it's not surprising that this is a heavy period for you.

But Moon square Pluto is a different animal altogether. When it comes to deeper emotions, I've found that it's pretty impossible to sway or change a Moon square Pluto person's feelings/approach to anything they're set on. I dated a girl with this aspect (Leo Moon in the 12th sq Scorpio Pluto) and I don't think she admitted she was wrong once in my 3 years knowing her. You're probably more mature, and they say that it's one of those aspects that brings wisdom with time -- but I'd try to be easy on yourself with your 4th House going through a lot right now.
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
OuterPlanets--thanks so much! I've actually been feeling better the past few months.

The therapist is helping me deal with my emotions and trust--even acknowledge--my intuition side. All that Mercury makes me fairly logical and as it turns out my chart says I'm out of touch with emotions.

But I've seen there are all kinds of transits right now supporting my quest to get back to my artistic side. I had shut down my heart and emotional exploration during mourning.
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
Okay, I've explored my Saturn handle to my natal chart bucket, my conjunct axes, my heavy Midheaven-NNode-POF activity, both here and over on AstroDienst, but I keep coming back to these FRUSTRATING MOON SQUARES! I'm starting to understand what they mean for me, but not sure how to get beyond a poor, misunderstood, badly-timed Moon and get in touch with my emotional side enough to connect with people.

I have nothing to hide anymore. I'm willing to trust. But over on the blog
https://astrolovecosmos.com/post/172624332198/natal-moon-square-aspects
I found all these troubling descriptions are the very heart of me:

In addition to the biggie, Moon Square Sun:

Moon Square Mercury: Mind vs. heart conflicts, emotions are probably not communicated well, possibly poor memory, may swing back and forth from logical and put together to overly sensitive and emotional. Emotional self conflicts with communication, decision making, and intellectual self.

Moon Square Saturn: Saturn can block the Moon’s emotional expression and ignore emotional health. Trust issues, self-doubt, and suspicion are common with this aspect.

Moon Square Uranus: Uranus brings change and detachment to the emotional self. A lot of conflict exist in how they live emotionally. They can become unreliable, distant, have sudden changes in moods, a desire to detach even to an unhealthy extent, and emotions can weigh down their adaptability to change or ability to change. Independence vs. dependence can be a conflict.

Moon Square Pluto: High risk for self-destruction. The emotional self goes against their ability to emotionally grow/transform. Their emotions can block out their inner demons, desires, and self. Has a hard time accepting and then healing from traumas.

Moon Square Chiron: Whatever is associated with one’s Chiron is embedded into their emotional being. The emotional wounds will be very slow to heal. Can be highly sensitive to other’s emotional states or emotional wounds and issues.

Moon Square Vesta: Emotional rest or self care does not come easily. Emotional health is turbulent. Spiritual health can feel draining or doesn’t feel secure in it.

...When I look at this, and the fact that it's all true, I start to despair of ever getting emotionally healthy enough to have personal relationships. :sad:
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
Moon Square Saturn: Saturn can block the Moon’s emotional expression and ignore emotional health.

Moon Square Pluto: High risk for self-destruction.

Moon Square Vesta: Emotional rest or self care does not come easily.

Okay, forget the personal relationship ??s (I want to make another thread asking about transits for the 1st time, anyway).

These Moon Square traits are hurting my health and harming my body!

Day 6 flat on my back with pneumonia, and I have made it worse every step of the way.

First I thought that if I took just ONE DAY off work and used some vapor-rub on my chest I would be fine.

Then I went back to work and relapsed and almost landed in the hospital.

I just cannot tell when I'm really sick. I have fibromyalgia, so I'm always in pain anyway, and since childhood I have fought hard to prove I wasn't a wimp. (My sisters teased me because sometimes they just poked my arm and it hurt so bad I cried).

So even though I was a scholar, not an athlete, I got my scuba diving license for cold water and I got my black belt in taekwondo and all kinds of stupid stuff I shouldn't have wasted money on just to prove myself.

So now my usual reaction to pain is just to PUSH RIGHT THROUGH it and ignore it.

Only now I'm getting older and have other auto-immune diseases, and my usual way is going to kill me one of these days!

There has been a theme to my posts. I hit rock bottom grieving for my brother, my emotions got so locked up that I was like a walking dead person.

It motivated me to come to terms with my emotional blockages once and for all. Apparently this week, I haven't made much progress. :crying:

Does anyone have any encouragement for me? I think there must be more gentle aspects in my chart, but I don't know how to access them.

Thank you! :smile:
 

Osamenor

Staff member
but I keep coming back to these FRUSTRATING MOON SQUARES! I'm starting to understand what they mean for me, but not sure how to get beyond a poor, misunderstood, badly-timed Moon and get in touch with my emotional side enough to connect with people.
I don't think this has much, if anything, to do with your Moon. The squares have very wide orbs. Saturn is a whole 8 degrees away from square with your Moon, and it's separating: Moon moves faster than Saturn, and it's moving out of that square. Your Moon is also separating from square to your Sun, although that one is still within a pretty close orb of two degrees. Separating squares are issues that were already on the way to resolving themselves when you were born.

Plus, all of these planets are in mutable signs. Hard aspects involving mutable signs are the least difficult, because mutable signs are the most adaptable. They don't necessarily share each other's points of view--Virgo focuses on details, Pisces on the big picture, while Gemini just wants to keep moving and keep the information flowing--but they all agree on wanting to be in the process of something, all the time. You're reading cookbook astrology descriptions that are designed for much harder squares.

Your Moon does have an applying square to your Mercury (and Uranus and Pluto, too). Applying squares are issues that are still forming through your life, so they manifest more strongly. But I think there are other factors in this:

Moon Square Mercury: Mind vs. heart conflicts, emotions are probably not communicated well, possibly poor memory, may swing back and forth from logical and put together to overly sensitive and emotional. Emotional self conflicts with communication, decision making, and intellectual self.
All of that can be chalked up to your Mercury being in the hidden away twelfth house and retrograde and under the Sun's beams and besieged by (astrology speak for sandwiched in between) Uranus and Pluto. Mercury square Moon might amplify it all, but it's not the sole reason.

Moon Square Saturn: Saturn can block the Moon’s emotional expression and ignore emotional health. Trust issues, self-doubt, and suspicion are common with this aspect.

Show me someone with none of those issues.

Seriously, your Moon is hardly square Saturn at all. The orb is so wide that only a minority of astrologers would even count it, and it's separating. If it were applying square with an eight degree orb, that might mean more, but again, I think this is all attributable to having so much, including Sun and chart ruler Mercury, in the twelfth house.

Moon Square Pluto: High risk for self-destruction. The emotional self goes against their ability to emotionally grow/transform. Their emotions can block out their inner demons, desires, and self. Has a hard time accepting and then healing from traumas.
If you recognize yourself in this, it's probably not true of you. If it were, you would be so self unaware that it wouldn't register.

Moon Square Chiron: Whatever is associated with one’s Chiron is embedded into their emotional being. The emotional wounds will be very slow to heal. Can be highly sensitive to other’s emotional states or emotional wounds and issues.
All this is true of Chiron in general, even if there's no Chiron/Moon connection.

Moral of the story: stop reading cookbook astrology!
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
Separating squares are issues that were already on the way to resolving themselves when you were born.

Plus, all of these planets are in mutable signs. Hard aspects involving mutable signs are the least difficult, because mutable signs are the most adaptable.

...Moral of the story: stop reading cookbook astrology!

:biggrin: That's why I'm here learning!

Thank you so much for this info; it's new to me.

Yes, after I posted this I realized AstroMatrix has 8° orbs on the natal chart and that seems excessive, even to a newbie like me.

Mutable signs? Good to know. I've also since learned I have kind of a Grand Water Trine if you count Chiron.

Point is, there's a lot of flexible Pisces in my chart. Not as hard-edged as I thought.

THANKS for your time and all the good info, Osamenor! :smile:
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

Moon-Pluto aspects make it very hard for the native to let go and accept changes, and that is perhaps what your greatest challenge is. The transformation comes through that. Moon-Saturn makes the Moon very rigid and stubborn too, and with the lights, so the Sun and the Moon, orbs until 10 degrees are permissible, and work.

Saturn entered Cap two years ago and hit your 4th house of family. It also through its entry in Cap built opposing energies to Mars in Cancer and Mars rules your 3rd house of siblings. As of middle of this year and most certainly early next year you will be doing much better emotionally.

Oh and btw, many people have Moon squares, so there is nothing extraordinary about your chart.
 
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Irisiel

Well-known member
As of middle of this year and most certainly early next year you will be doing much better emotionally.

Oh and btw, many people have Moon squares, so there is nothing extraordinary about your chart.

Thanks very much, Aquarius 7000, for things to make me feel better. :smile:

Not letting go of the anger and denial of my brother's death = the hardest thing I've ever done. But it has made me resolve to really live, and to stop being so self-centered, and find the ways I can help people, according to the talents I do have.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Not letting go of the anger and denial of my brother's death = the hardest thing I've ever done. But it has made me resolve to really live, and to stop being so self-centered, and find the ways I can help people, according to the talents I do have.

Anger and denial of a close loved one's untimely death is normal. If it weren't still affecting you after only two years, that's when something would be wrong with you! In fact, there's never going to be a time when your brother's death won't affect you. How exactly it affects you will evolve, but it remains a life event that leaves you never the same again.

That right there is Pluto. A manifestation of your Pluto/Moon square (which is one of your stronger ones because it's applying) along with Mercury (siblings) and Uranus (sudden, unexpected events). Things like this are, as you know, not happening every day of your life, but you have the right setup in your birth chart for such a thing to happen to you at least once. I expect something was triggering that square when your brother died.
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
I expect something was triggering that square when your brother died.

I looked it up. The day I learned of his cancer (and deep down I knew he was dying), transit Chiron conjuncted my Vertex. Transit Neptune opposed Uranus (my world was shaken).

There really were special circumstances surrounding my grieving--my parents and his wife and my sisters all were affected. But I'm the one who went underground and shut down for two years. Till here I am responding to the crisis. Looking for the way out.I

Thanks again! As always. :smile:
 

antiphon

Member
Sun, Moon, Pluto in hard aspect is often someone with iron will determination, willing to sacrifice anything and endure intense pain and suffering to get their way. It’s the aspect of a survivor, someone who experiences everyday obstacles as a life or death struggle. It’s an aspect of someone who wins the battle, but loses the war. They have enormous difficulty taking strategic losses. There can be too much self control, overestimation of their ability to dominate the self, and not recognizing that they have created an enemy within which subverts their goals.

I’d suggest reading The Art of War, because it shows how qualities of yielding, surrender, and letting go aren’t always weaknesses.
 

Irisiel

Well-known member
Sun, Moon, Pluto in hard aspect is often someone with iron will determination, willing to sacrifice anything and endure intense pain and suffering to get their way. It’s the aspect of a survivor, someone who experiences everyday obstacles as a life or death struggle.

Yes, but there is a reason I grew up this way! :lol: I didn't know I had fibromyalgia, and other autoimmune diseases. I thought EVERYone was in the same kind of crippling pain, and I didn't want anyone to think I was weak.

So I overdid everything: I pushed through the pain by focusing on the goal. But now that I'm older, it doesn't work anyway: it makes me more sick. In fact, lately I can't control how sick.

So now it's life-or-death that I learn HOW to let go and take strategic losses, how to stop the death-grip self-control.

And if I sound like a Pluto-Moon talking even now :smile: it's because I thought I was doing so well this year, being relaxed and opening up to people--and now I have pneumonia AGAIN. I got sick and went right back to work, then got REALLY sick.

I HAVE become my own worst enemy, and I don't believe that surrender is weakness--but apparently you can't change just by wanting to. (All I can think of right now is how my co-workers must think I'm so weak, because I'm sick again...)

Thank you for the advice. I need all the advice I can get on why my old way was harmful and dangerous, because it keeps encouraging me to work on the change.

PS: you are exactly right, describing it so well. I think there might be softer aspects in my chart to save me, if I can learn how to use them.
 
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antiphon

Member
Any square is hard to balance because there’s a tendency to go to an extreme in one direction or the other. With the sun square moon, you have to consciously give yourself time to indulge in the pursuits that your Virgo sun might consider immature and a waste of time.
 
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