What is a marriage? (for people who can't get married)

I brought up this question on the banning of homosexual topics thread, but I thought this might be a better place for it:

I was just wondering how marriage predictions differ for homosexuals because we can't get married in a lot of places, so how do we even know what constitutes a marriage? I've been with my partner for four years (he's an aries and I have libra ascendant so he may or may not be my "first marriage" as my jupiter placement indicates multiple marriages) but it may not be possible for me to ever get legally married in my lifetime at all so who knows?

I'm 28 now and just read something the other day that said I wouldn't get married until I'm in my 30s. I don't know if that means an actual, legal marriage granted by the state, or living together with the person I'm supposed to be with for the rest of my life or what. Am I already with the person I'm supposed to be with and it will just be a few years before we can get married legally, or will the first time I get married in my thirties (whether it be legally binding or not) be to someone entirely different? Does multiple marriages always mean legal ones? My partner had a another longterm relationship before ours, and his chart said he would be married twice with the second marriage less sex and more friendship. He has cancer so we are not having sex at all and haven't for awhile, so I'm assuming I'm his "second marriage" with less sex and more friendship, but technically he's never been married at all.

What are your thoughts on marriage indicators for people who can't get legally married?

I was taught to look to see which fits the more masculine and which fits the more feminine energies and go about it that way. In this way you carry on the same way. Hope this helps

I think alot of it will depend upon what we are considering marriage. The 7th house is of both partnerships and legal contracts, so I would suggest looking there for clues. I have been legally married twice but will say I was married 3 times. I lived with the kid's father for 10 years and other than a recognized ceremony, we still shared everything... Even credit reports If you are looking for planets to spell out partnerships... not sure what to say, but don't discount Mercury. As Mercury is said to imitate the planet it is closest too.

TK

I believe that for astrological delineations, "marriage" means defacto "marriage-like" love relationships between 2 persons; I think that formal (legal) marriage as such, would be a consideration involving the 9th house, the emphasis being upon the official or ceremonial or legal aspects of the relationship, whereas 7th house would be upon the actual "marriage like" activities, including love, of the relationship.

dr. farr said:

I believe that for astrological delineations, "marriage" means defacto "marriage-like" love relationships between 2 persons; I think that formal (legal) marriage as such, would be a consideration involving the 9th house, the emphasis being upon the official or ceremonial or legal aspects of the relationship, whereas 7th house would be upon the actual "marriage like" activities, including love, of the relationship.

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Thanks for weighing in. This seems to make sense.

In my eyes you don't have a chart of homosexuality. And yes, with Saturn on the ASC perhaps you will not be married before your 30th, even I would say not before 35 years or later.
Now, saying you are suffering from your Saturn ...., that's possibly from the aspect with Pluton. Are you going against yourself? Are you brakening your own desire for marriage and all what that includes?
Look what you can do with your own Sun (in the 10th), and forgot money for a while, even if you meet a rich man. If the idea of marriage is so important for you, then you'll have to do what it makes possible. I repeat it, take care of your Sun, then you'll be joyful. If I am wrong, please tell me.

Sunny

Suffering in Saturn said:

What are your thoughts on marriage indicators for people who can't get legally married?

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As I see it, astrology doesn't indicate precise legal status, but human relations. A "marriage" in the horoscope chart is a committed relation to another person, whoever that is. Often it's even hard to say if it's a relation of love or of another kind (business partnership, et cetera - well, historically, many marriages were actually almost business relations...).

As for your horoscope, your Ascendant is in Libra, making you stand out as somebody committed to the idea of committing to somebody else. But later in the first house there's Pluto and Saturn, suggesting personal struggles, and Scorpio, indicating a change of attitude. The aspects to the 10th, 11th and 3rd houses give me the impression that events in your social life make you shift your attitude, almost in a way that makes others feel your personality changes. In a way it's always true: people who get to know you find another than the one they thought they saw in the beginning.

Your seventh house is empty and in Aries, which suggests somebody difficult to tie down with any bonds. It makes me wonder if you're the marrying kind at all. The fourth house starting in Capricorn shows you have the ambition of making a proper home and family, but it's void of planets and shifts to Aquarius, suggesting that you settle for a home that might be unconventional but fits you.

Stefan Stenudd
http://www.horoscoper.net

Sunny said:

In my eyes you don't have a chart of homosexuality. And yes, with Saturn on the ASC perhaps you will not be married before your 30th, even I would say not before 35 years or later.
Now, saying you are suffering from your Saturn ...., that's possibly from the aspect with Pluton. Are you going against yourself? Are you brakening your own desire for marriage and all what that includes?
Look what you can do with your own Sun (in the 10th), and forgot money for a while, even if you meet a rich man. If the idea of marriage is so important for you, then you'll have to do what it makes possible. I repeat it, take care of your Sun, then you'll be joyful. If I am wrong, please tell me.

Sunny

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Sunny,

Thanks for the other input. I wasn't really asking about chart indicators for homosexuality (that's not exactly a matter of dispute lol, I'm pretty confident I am and will always be gay regardless of what my chart says) and I think any discussion of that has actually been banned anyway. I didn't know saturn on the asc meant a later marriage. I figured it was because I had an 11th house venus and a 10th house mars and my 7th house is empty.

The "Suffering in Saturn" username was just the first random thing I thought of because I'm going through my saturn return and it's not going well because among many problems, my partner has stage 4 cancer. Things are not going well, seemingly everything is completely beyond my control, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight (hopefully there will be once we get a little closer to October 5).

I don't know what you mean about looking for a rich man, I'm in a relationship that -- as far as I know -- isn't going to end unless he dies because we have a child together. I'm not actively looking for anything right now. If this relationship does end, I'm not really interested in dating anyone for money because that doesn't really make you happy in the long run. I'd rather have love and freedom than golden handcuffs.

Did you have any specific advice about taking care of my sun? I didn't really understand that comment. Between my partner with cancer and our 8 month old daughter I really don't have much time to do anything for myself.

Stefan Stenudd said:

As for your horoscope, your Ascendant is in Libra, making you stand out as somebody committed to the idea of committing to somebody else. But later in the first house there's Pluto and Saturn, suggesting personal struggles, and Scorpio, indicating a change of attitude. The aspects to the 10th, 11th and 3rd houses give me the impression that events in your social life make you shift your attitude, almost in a way that makes others feel your personality changes. In a way it's always true: people who get to know you find another than the one they thought they saw in the beginning.

Your seventh house is empty and in Aries, which suggests somebody difficult to tie down with any bonds. It makes me wonder if you're the marrying kind at all. The fourth house starting in Capricorn shows you have the ambition of making a proper home and family, but it's void of planets and shifts to Aquarius, suggesting that you settle for a home that might be unconventional but fits you.

Stefan Stenudd
http://www.horoscoper.net

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Stefan,

Thanks for the interpretation! Yours is one of the most accurate and thorough I've come across. I definitely open up more as I get to know someone. I tend to come off at first as more intellectual, pensive, stoic, aloof, cold, or even stuck up than I am, but that's more because I have a bit of social anxiety and get nervous around people I don't know. Deep down I'm really warm, caring, and nurturing, and people tend to figure that out quickly if the relationship/friendship progresses.

I would love to get married one day, I'm just not sure it will ever be legal for me. It's not so much the piece of paper or joint tax returns that concern me, though, more the combination of trust, support, friendship, fidelity, and passion/spark, so I see what you mean about settling for something unconventional but fits me. I'd rather have true love than a piece of paper.

As far as the personal struggles you referred to in my 1st house, I guess that could be coming out, but that was more than 10 years ago now. With it being my saturn return and this uranus-pluto square hitting my partner's chart pretty hard (sun 6 aries, moon 14 libra, jupiter 2 aries, saturn 12 cancer, and pluto 7 libra) I suppose his death could also fulfill that. Are these 1st house struggles you refer to something that's already happened, currently happening, or will simply occur in perpetuity for the rest of my life?

Similarly, these events in my social life that change my personality (or the perception of it?), do you see those as ongoing or incidental? Have they already happened, will happen in the future, or do they just occur during every new human interaction I encounter?

I am sorry for your partner's pain and your difficult situation!

Did you have any specific advice about taking care of my sun? I didn't really understand that comment

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So let me explain:
Your elements, that are Libra-ASC (Air) and Sun-Sign(Fire), give you much harmony, but there will be a great inner conflict to you if you'll not pay attention at it. With Libra-ASC you'll always looking at first to and for the others, they are like a mirror for you and your equilibrium depends from what the others are feeling, thinking, doing or their being. You are, so to speak, just the second person in your life, not the first one. That's just not what a Sun does in Lion. There, the Sun is his own king in his universe, his rays warm the others, he is generous and the master of all and the others benefit from his great personality and he is strong because of his natural selfcontrol.
Because you have Saturn on the ASC, in your 1st house, could it be that you confound selfcontrol with self-restriction? So as that you are inclined to say first "no" to yourself instead of going out of yourself and doing what is adequate to your personnality? Just like saying "I will always be regardless what my chart says" etc. That was what I meant with taking care of your Sun, let him coming into your life and hear from him, a learn from him. In your case you shall allow to become more egoistical, so to speak.

Your Venus in the 11th could translate an eternal hope for the partner/woman but being in the future for ever, not a really realistical one. Venus is also the ruler of your ASC, and then it could mean that your inner partner could be reached if you let go the transformations from Scorpio - perhaps, just an idea.

I don't know what you mean about looking for a rich man

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No, I didn't say that you are looking for a rich man, but your income (and the value of money or property) can be important as you are a great worker (mars in the 10th where he is elevated but also in fall (Cancer) and in trigone with Uranus in the 2nd) or that you have facilities to obtain easily your income/money/property. And therefore it could be a thing in your life that you won't neglect or that you are hoping for it.

With my best wishes
Sunny

i thought gay marriage was officially recognized in america. and in some countries in europe there's civil partnership.

i suppose marriage equals readiness to "forsake all others", something beyond commitment in regular relationships which only exist in the present.

Sunny said:

I am sorry for your partner's pain and your difficult situation!

So let me explain:
Your elements, that are Libra-ASC (Air) and Sun-Sign(Fire), give you much harmony, but there will be a great inner conflict to you if you'll not pay attention at it. With Libra-ASC you'll always looking at first to and for the others, they are like a mirror for you and your equilibrium depends from what the others are feeling, thinking, doing or their being. You are, so to speak, just the second person in your life, not the first one. That's just not what a Sun does in Lion. There, the Sun is his own king in his universe, his rays warm the others, he is generous and the master of all and the others benefit from his great personality and he is strong because of his natural selfcontrol.
Because you have Saturn on the ASC, in your 1st house, could it be that you confound selfcontrol with self-restriction? So as that you are inclined to say first "no" to yourself instead of going out of yourself and doing what is adequate to your personnality? Just like saying "I will always be regardless what my chart says" etc. That was what I meant with taking care of your Sun, let him coming into your life and hear from him, a learn from him. In your case you shall allow to become more egoistical, so to speak.

Your Venus in the 11th could translate an eternal hope for the partner/woman but being in the future for ever, not a really realistical one. Venus is also the ruler of your ASC, and then it could mean that your inner partner could be reached if you let go the transformations from Scorpio - perhaps, just an idea.

No, I didn't say that you are looking for a rich man, but your income (and the value of money or property) can be important as you are a great worker (mars in the 10th where he is elevated but also in fall (Cancer) and in trigone with Uranus in the 2nd) or that you have facilities to obtain easily your income/money/property. And therefore it could be a thing in your life that you won't neglect or that you are hoping for it.

With my best wishes
Sunny

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Thanks for the clarification, Sunny. Your assessment sounds right on. I do usually worry about others before myself, it just sounds a little counterintuitive that one of my spiritual life lessons would be to learn how to be more selfish. To me it seems far too many people only care about themselves and never consider how their actions affect others. I guess they are probably happier than I am , but besides the fear of bad karma, it's just innately hard for me to avoid doing the right thing. (maybe saturn's 1st house restrictions?) Even if no one else finds out, I'll know it was wrong and feel guilty about it type of thing. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I'd hope it's possible to be a good person (ethically/morally) and still have a satisfactory life. To both be nurturing and nurtured? It's hard for me to imagine that hurting others is the only/correct path to fulfillment of self.

My leo sun is also square my taurus moon so there's another conflict balancing taking care of myself and taking care of others, and my partner is an aries so he is much more self-oriented and I usually always end up trying to make him happy at my own expense, but then it seems he's never truly satisfied either, always has something negative to say or complain about. It's draining! It would be nice to be the one taken care of for once and get my emotional needs met instead of always pushing them aside because "it's the right thing to do."

dear_darkness said:

i thought gay marriage was officially recognized in america. and in some countries in europe there's civil partnership.

i suppose marriage equals readiness to "forsake all others", something beyond commitment in regular relationships which only exist in the present.

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It is recognized in some places like New York, but unfortunately it varies state to state and is not recognized federally (nationally). More than 30 states ban it in their state constitutions, most recently North Carolina. Fewer than 10 of our 50 states allow it. Even in California, traditionally seen as extremely progressive/liberal, it's not allowed.

Hi,

I find your comments very interesting and a better explanation for your chart than the mine! Here some additionals:

it just sounds a little counterintuitive that one of my spiritual life lessons would be to learn how to be more selfish.

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Yes, that's true. But think at it that spiritual and psychology are two different things and ways which have to be joined during our life, I mean.
Your answer so, that is the real ethical spirit felt from your Sun in Leo, and that is very good, nothing to say more.
But, in your case, what I want to show you, that is that you aren't living enough your Sun in your chart, therefore I said before : take care of your Sun.

but besides the fear of bad karma, it's just innately hard for me to avoid doing the right thing.

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Why will you that you have a bad karma? All actions have karma, there is only "karma", the good and the bad, you know it. And beeing realistic dont meant to be pessimistic. (Saturn ?? )

it's just innately hard for me to avoid doing the right thing

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You mean, doing the right thing in the eyes from the others?

Even if no one else finds out, I'll know it was wrong and feel guilty about it type of thing.

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So, first you are hearing your ASC-Saturn and then, 2ndly, your Pluton is coming to support Saturn ....

Maybe I'm an idealist, but I'd hope it's possible to be a good person (ethically/morally) and still have a satisfactory life.

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Yes, I think so, it's possible, if you are more going the way of your Sun. And there is no bad thing to be an idealist, you must only see it and accept, in a karma-like way, that events in life are impermanent (insatisfactory life).

My leo sun is also square my taurus moon so there's another conflict balancing taking care of myself and taking care of others,

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Yes, but don't matter so much about it. So many people have this, too, and in an astrological view it is always better to have an aspect between the Sun and the Moon, than no aspect. This square can mean so much different things, also could concern the relation of your parents, so let it come. You can verify if this application is the sign that you are not so good with women, that they make you perhaps angry and so on. Just have a look and see.

and I usually always end up trying to make him happy at my own expense, but then it seems he's never truly satisfied either, always has something negative to say or complain about.

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So, what are you doing really? Make him happy? not so much, it seems.
In this way you are perhaps under the power of your ASC, once more, and could it be that you confound devotion and submiselveness with kindness and love?

Your actual experience will help you to increase your conscience and to start your transformation - but you have to want it.

Good luck!
Sunny

Thanks again, Sunny. You should be a therapist. I do want changes to happen, I just don't know how or what to do at this point. I was hoping/thinking this grand mutable cross was going to help me figure out what to do somehow (I have like six squares and four oppositions going right now, lol, life is grand). I'm trying to wait out these harsh transits (about another month or two) and my saturn return and see if things get better on their own.