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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #126  
Unread 04-22-2012, 11:28 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Thank you, MaeMae.

I've said what I have to say, and it's not likely to do any good to pursue it further.

May the thread continue in a better vein

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  #127  
Unread 04-23-2012, 12:48 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

thanks maemae - that is very kind and i appreciate it..

moog, your comment to judy motivated me to say what i did.. it was my impression you were being sarcastic, but perhaps you were sincere in what you said to her.. either way an option is to apply the suggestions you've offered me in your posts to me here. thanks for the conversation either way..
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  #128  
Unread 04-23-2012, 12:53 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Yes, I was sincere. Only someone who is a bone fide expert in the field would have the chutzpah to make such comments.
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  #129  
Unread 04-23-2012, 01:13 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
This is my first post to the website. The discussion intrigues me, but I'm amazed that so many people seem to accept the idea of the debility of houses, and are discussing which is the weakest. Really? Do you also believe that Mars and Saturn are malevolent, with no redeeming qualities?
Hi Judy, and welcome to the forum. That's a great opener, and so I suppose it parks you firmly in the "I'm a modern astrologer" camp? I am very hopeful that it was just a position you were stating, and not a put down to traditional astrologers as some here have interpreted it. As to your comment about being amazed that so many people accept the idea that certain houses are either a debility, and whether or not Mars and Saturn can be considered malevolent...well, there are still quite a few traditional astrologers around, and even some more modern ones who understand that there may be more to it that it first appears. Personally, I prefer to keep an open mind. I'm guessing your first post wasn't meant to be a provocative bombshell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
I have always thought that astrology reflects the times in which we live... or ought to. Our value systems are quite different than those of the ancients (i.e., no slavery and few servants to populate our 6th houses; little concern over "evil" influences), and we have an expanded set of celestial objects to work with in our interpretations. Also, we have access to large libraries of books about astrology, and the experience of many astrologers to learn from -- something few ancient astrologers had. I can certainly accept that some planets under pressure are difficult to deal with, and require the development of inner strength. But do we really need to perpetuate the prejudices of the ancients?

Personally, in my work I've done charts for several 6th house Sun people who are in the health-care field, and one 6th house Sun who's a human resources director for a good-sized company. I can think of only two cases where a 6th house Saturn, with difficult aspects, seems to be involved in long-term health issues (one a physical ailment, the other chronic anxiety). Also, I recall reading an astrology book by Dr Mitchell Gibson, a psychiatrist with 4 or 5 planets in Virgo in his natal 6th (including his Sun).

On the whole, I find the 6th house Sun to be fairly positive, not "debilitated" or "weak". I believe that the 12th house also can be positive, if its energies are explored rather than feared, and utilized rather than shunted away. Same goes for the 8th house.

BTW, my natal Aries Moon is at my 6th cusp, opposite Neptune in my 12th. I'm glad to say I've experienced no more sorrow or other bad stuff than the average bear.
I like what you wrote here, and you give several good examples of why it is more important to look at the whole chart, and not just the houses. I think that's what can sometimes act like nails on a chalkboard for some of us who prefer more traditional methods. The sixth is considered a cadent house, as is the 12th. But, the condition of the house, and the planets therein will also be determined by a host of other factors, traditionally speaking, including sign ruler and it's position, exaltation ruler, aspects to and from those rulers, aspects to and from planets in those houses...and I think it's no small matter that the two "malefic" planets, Mars and Saturn, joy in these houses.

One last thought I'd like to include here. We can all talk about how beneficial all the planets and houses can be, and how in a perfect world we would like them to be. But, the world isn't perfect, and sometimes bad things, or bad people, come along. Life isn't always sunshine and roses, and astrology, if it is to be true to life, should reflect that as well. That's my thought anyway.

Hope to see you around, Judy_AzVirgo, and that you came to contribute to the positive.
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  #130  
Unread 04-23-2012, 04:49 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

I fully agree that taking only one element (cadency/house/whatever) and then generalizing using only that element, is a misleading practice: it is always the totality of testimonies regarding an element, that leads to the correct delineation: saying "Sun in 6th is bad" is just as erroneous as saying "Sun in the 1st is good": nature of planet plus sign plus house plus angularity/cadency plus quality of the degree the planet is in plus aspects to the planet, ALL are needed for consideration, before a + or - or mixed assessment regarding that element, can be judiciously rendered.
...and, by the way, ALL astrological systems (Modernist, Traditionalist, Hellenist, Vedic) insist upon this issue...

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-23-2012 at 04:51 AM.
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  #131  
Unread 04-23-2012, 01:39 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

You're right. It does boil down to old vs. new. And thank you for a calm reply.
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  #132  
Unread 04-23-2012, 01:58 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
On the contrary, ancient astrologers frequently delineated Mars and Saturn as being on occasion helpful to the native.


Really? No slavery in the times in which we live? You are entitled to your opinion Judy_AZVirgo, however, IMO

(1) ANY street prostitute controlled by a pimp who subjects them to various forms of assault/ threats/enforced drug addiction in order to coerce their compliance is obviously in a condition of slavery


(2) Gullible people who sign contracts for apparently high wages to work abroad may discover on arrival that they are now being charged ludicrous 'rent' for a home unfit for human habitation and can neither afford food/clothing nor to repay the loan that paid for their plane ticket. They can in effect rarely escape their harsh living conditions and onerous work and are effectively now unpaid workers in a condition of slavery.


(3) In American today, the allegedly wealthiest nation, we find “Tent Cities” inhabited by those whose homes have been foreclosed: they are now homeless but remain employed. They work while living in “Tent Cities” in conditions they cannot escape due to wages insufficient to meet daily needs. That's slavery.

(4) The more fortunate who own their home nevertheless frequently work two or three jobs in order to keep it! That's slavery.

(5) Inhabitants of the so-called "Third World" are working for less than a dollar a day. That's slavery.


link to Rebel_Uranian's "Thread To Argue About Lesser Pieces Of Space Rock" http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=44350

Discussion "Are Outer Planets Generational Or Personal?"http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=39021

Some ancient astrologers had access to the great library at Alexandria before it was destroyed by the Romans during war. Some of those writings chronicling the writings of astrologers predating their own time by many hundreds of years have survived. It is on those writings, (obviously translated) that modern astrology is built and is entirely dependent for techniques such as Solar Returns, Midpoints as well as basic natal chart delineation

That comment IMO itself is an indication of a prejudice against ancient beliefs. Do we really need to attack the beliefs of the ancients by labeling them as “prejudices”?

Nevertheless there are more than seven billion humans on planet Earth! The number of charts you have personally delineated is miniscule by comparison and certainly not representative IMO it's all relative and a matter of individual opinion - some astrologers prefer to use traditional/ancient delineation... the subject requires considerable study.

One wonders what "the average bear" actually experiences. The experience of "bad stuff" is relative to the opinion of the person experiencing the "bad Stuff" - one person's idea of "bad stuff" may well be another person's idea of "not so bad stuff" - it's all relative.

With no information as to the aspects made by the natal Aries Moon and/or the house position sign and dispositor of the natal Aries Moon's Mars any comment would be no more than simplistic "cook book astrology".

As for Neptune, for those who use the outers in astrology (and not all astrologers do) opinions differ as to whether the outer planets are generational or personal
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=39021
My point was that there was much discussion here about the negatives of the 6th (and also 12th) houses, and I simply thought that the negativity needed to be addressed, or redressed. And I agree, the subject needs more research.
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  #133  
Unread 04-23-2012, 02:09 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Hi Judy, and welcome to the forum. That's a great opener, and so I suppose it parks you firmly in the "I'm a modern astrologer" camp? I am very hopeful that it was just a position you were stating, and not a put down to traditional astrologers as some here have interpreted it. As to your comment about being amazed that so many people accept the idea that certain houses are either a debility, and whether or not Mars and Saturn can be considered malevolent...well, there are still quite a few traditional astrologers around, and even some more modern ones who understand that there may be more to it that it first appears. Personally, I prefer to keep an open mind. I'm guessing your first post wasn't meant to be a provocative bombshell?



I like what you wrote here, and you give several good examples of why it is more important to look at the whole chart, and not just the houses. I think that's what can sometimes act like nails on a chalkboard for some of us who prefer more traditional methods. The sixth is considered a cadent house, as is the 12th. But, the condition of the house, and the planets therein will also be determined by a host of other factors, traditionally speaking, including sign ruler and it's position, exaltation ruler, aspects to and from those rulers, aspects to and from planets in those houses...and I think it's no small matter that the two "malefic" planets, Mars and Saturn, joy in these houses.

One last thought I'd like to include here. We can all talk about how beneficial all the planets and houses can be, and how in a perfect world we would like them to be. But, the world isn't perfect, and sometimes bad things, or bad people, come along. Life isn't always sunshine and roses, and astrology, if it is to be true to life, should reflect that as well. That's my thought anyway.

Hope to see you around, Judy_AzVirgo, and that you came to contribute to the positive.
Thanks for your insights... it's appreciated.

Not meant to be a bombshell .... just expressing my opinion. There are a multitude of opinions expressed on the various threads I've been reading here, a richness of opinion -- and some of it is lovely, such as the comment someone made in this thread about planets in the 12th house being "gentlemen", among others. So I thought I'd throw in my two cents' worth to try for a positive outlook on the 6th house.

Sorry if I ruffled feathers by being a modernist. But there it is; it's what I am.
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  #134  
Unread 04-23-2012, 04:09 PM
MaeMae MaeMae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Thanks for your insights... it's appreciated.

Not meant to be a bombshell .... just expressing my opinion. There are a multitude of opinions expressed on the various threads I've been reading here, a richness of opinion -- and some of it is lovely, such as the comment someone made in this thread about planets in the 12th house being "gentlemen", among others. So I thought I'd throw in my two cents' worth to try for a positive outlook on the 6th house.

Sorry if I ruffled feathers by being a modernist. But there it is; it's what I am.
judy ~ welcome to the contradictions. just trust that there is more than one way to skin a catfish so don't feel you need to apologize for expressing your astrological understanding and perspectives.
the traditionalist thug club probably still believes leeching is a cure for infection.
; ) just sayin ~
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  #135  
Unread 04-23-2012, 05:16 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

judy, you've made such a splash it would be very interesting to see your chart if you feel like sharing. thanks - james
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  #136  
Unread 04-23-2012, 05:54 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
the traditionalist thug club probably still believes leeching is a cure for infection.
But, we only do that after punch n' judy show.

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  #137  
Unread 04-23-2012, 06:12 PM
MaeMae MaeMae is offline
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But, we only do that after punch n' judy show.

just laughed so loud from my porch, a bicyclist passing got scared and crossed street.
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  #138  
Unread 04-23-2012, 08:21 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I fully agree that taking only one element (cadency/house/whatever) and then generalizing using only that element, is a misleading practice: it is always the totality of testimonies regarding an element, that leads to the correct delineation: saying "Sun in 6th is bad" is just as erroneous as saying "Sun in the 1st is good": nature of planet plus sign plus house plus angularity/cadency plus quality of the degree the planet is in plus aspects to the planet, ALL are needed for consideration, before a + or - or mixed assessment regarding that element, can be judiciously rendered.
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
...and, by the way, ALL astrological systems (Modernist, Traditionalist, Hellenist, Vedic) insist upon this issue...
so in this instance, it's NOT "traditionalist thug club" versus "modernist thug club" - excellent point, well made dr. farr
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Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
just laughed so loud from my porch, a bicyclist passing got scared and crossed street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Journal of Medical Ethics 1992 Richard P Bentall Liverpool University

QUOTE

AUTHORS ABSTRACT
It is proposed that happiness be classified as a psychiatric disorder and be included in future editions of the major diagnostic manuals under the new name : "Major Affective Disorder, Pleasant Type". In a review of the relevant literature it is shown
that happiness is statistically abnormal, consists of a discrete cluster of symptoms, is
associated with a range of cognitive abnormalities, and probably reflects the abnormal functioning of the central nervous system. One possible objection to this proposal remains - that happiness is not negatively valued. However, this objection is dismissed as scientifically irrelevant.

Introduction - Happiness is a phenomenon that has received very little attention from psycho-pathologists, perhaps because it is not normally regarded as a cause for therapeutic concern http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00282-0040.pdf
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  #139  
Unread 04-23-2012, 08:34 PM
MaeMae MaeMae is offline
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Exactly


so in this instance, it's NOT "traditionalist thug club" versus "modernist thug club" - excellent point, well made dr. farr
mwaaaah, jup!
i may give you grief, but that's only because the worthy are worth it.
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  #140  
Unread 04-23-2012, 11:09 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Red face Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
judy, you've made such a splash it would be very interesting to see your chart if you feel like sharing. thanks - james

Well, James, the 100 degree temp in Phoenix today felt quite cool and comfortable in comparison to what I found on this website this morning, so I think I will hold off on sharing my chart for the moment until all have recovered. Will put the chart up at some point if I can figure out how.
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  #141  
Unread 04-23-2012, 11:14 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 View Post
See my mystery is this. Why is the 12th House more debilitated than the 6th House in Traditional Astrology? I understand why the 8th, 6th and 12th are debilitated in a sense, but can anyone help me with the above question?
Sniper, with all the twists and turns this thread has taken, I thought this post on another thread might help. It doesn't quite answer the why part, but it does show which houses were considered productive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
QUOTE

Section 36 “Productive Signs” by Porphyry of Tyre

According to Timaeus, there are a total of seven productive places in a nativity, including the four angular houses, the two houses which are trine to the first house and the house rising up after the tenth house. The remaining houses are unproductive. Often, however, if the greater part of the ascending sign happens to have risen up above the horizon, and thus one of the latter degrees of the sign marks the Ascendant degree, then the sign on the second house will share in the productivity of the first house
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  #142  
Unread 04-27-2012, 09:28 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Sniper, with all the twists and turns this thread has taken, I thought this post on another thread might help. It doesn't quite answer the why part, but it does show which houses were considered productive.
Thanks tsmall. Very useful post; it gives me more insight i.e. my original question and more. I suppose I couldn't help wondering about some things, and as usual, I always have too question those things.

I don't mind the "twists and turns" this thread has taken. I appreciate it actually since it helps me, and other members on this forum, learn the many types of astrological functions out there.
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