Astrologers' Community Stuck in a Conundrum!

 Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)

#51
04-17-2012, 10:29 PM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,084
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel Now someone correct me if I am wrong but....Whole Sign is not really a house system but, a lack thereof.
I believe that originally, when the idea of using the signs and dividing the circle of the heavens came into being the signs were considered "places" or zodia. This is conjecture, but the idea of the 1st "place," the 2nd "place" is what gave rise to the "houses" as we know them today. The places were determined from the place/sign of the ASC, and proceeded around the circle through the signs from the "place" of the ASC.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel Comparatively, Equal house system is a house system distinct from the signs but, Whole Sign is simply that, signs...no houses. So, for example, the ASC in Whole Sign can be under the earth which, really makes no sense as it is the 'rising sign' but, I get the fact that Whole Sign system takes the 'rising sign' and simply put the whole sing first rather than the actual ASC.
Maybe I am wrong, but the actual ASC as a point isn't ever under the earth. The ASC is the degree that was on the horizon at the moment of birth. How can that be under the earth? Is there some confusion around the idea that the ASC can be within the "house" or place, instead of the boarder of it?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel Another thought; since the ancient may have also considered the cusp the middle of the house, and I have no idea how that would work with Whole Signs specifically but, assuming it did,
I'm not sure that the cusp, or most sensitive point, of any zodion or "house" if you will is the middle of the sign. dr. farr has again explained better in other posts, but the cusp degree is calculated based on the ASC degree. For example, in my chart I have ASC at 14* Libra. Yes, that is in the middle of the sign, and so the cusp or most sensitive point of my 2nd place/house in Scorpio will be at 14*. If my ASC was at 25* Libra, then the cusp or sensitive point of my second place/house would be 25* Scorpio. But, all of Scorpio is my second place.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel then a planet could actually be in the ASC or 1st sign and not in the 12th even though it was above the horizon.
Exactly. Again using my own chart as an example, I have Sun at 2* Libra, Mercury at 10* Libra, and Jupiter at 13* Libra. If you like to consider the outers, I also have Uranus at 4* Libra. All of these planets are above the ASC, but with whole sign all of these planets are still in the 1st house/place/sign. Equal or Placidus puts them all in 12th, with the exception of Jupiter and possibly Mars, because with those systems we are supposed to figure out how many degrees before the cusp a planet must be to be considered in the next house.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel Not trying to be difficult here but some of this simply does not match but is more like a patchwork of various times and techniques being thrown together way out of context.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Since you quoted my post, I assume you are referring to what I wrote? As I said when I replied to Carris, I am still a new student, but since Carris' question was directed to me I wanted to do my best to reply.

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"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
#52
04-17-2012, 10:54 PM
 sandstone Banned Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: bestcoast of canada Posts: 1,060
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

i don't want to knock over any apple cart here, but if i do, just consider it a case of james not wearing his glasses, lol..

from my understanding of equal house system, it is very much the same as whole-sign houses.. it took me a while to get to this point, but if you read up on vedic literature they seem to like to keep all the planets in the sign with the sign that marks the house as well.. the degree is like the center where the crest of the wave is.. i have said this on this site before.. if a person has a planet in a particular sign, the house that sign lands on is the house/sign that planet is in.. i don't know if you will get this from somewhere on the net, but i got to this place prior to the net.. it was one of the reasons i liked equal house so much! the continuity was a beautiful thing in that it kept the relationships between the signs in a state of consistency, for me anyway.. when i eventually was exposed to whole-sign houses thru the work of robert hand, i felt like i didn't have to convert as i was already their... but then this is just me and my own path on equal houses that some others here might have some special insight into that i am unaware of.. that is how i understand equal house system - essentially the same as whole-sign houses.. when you think about it, it makes sense as apparently these folks that would drive around on magic carpets seemed to have hung onto some of the stuff from way back when!!!
#53
04-17-2012, 11:32 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 34,750
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel Now someone correct me if I am wrong but....Whole Sign is not really a house system but, a lack thereof. Comparitively, Equal house system is a house system distinct from the signs but, Whole Sign is simply that, signs...no houses. So, for example, the ASC in Whole Sign can be under the earth which, really makes no sense as it is the 'rising sign' but, I get the fact that Whole Sign system takes the 'rising sign' and simply put the whole sing first rather than the actual ASC. Another thought; since the ancient may have also considered the cusp the middle of the house, and I have no idea how that would work with Whole Signs specfically but, assuming it did, then a planet could actually be in the ASC or 1st sign and not in the 12th even though it was above the horizon. Not trying to be difficult here but some of this simply does not match but is more like a patchwork of various times and techniques being thrown together way out of context.
(1) All Whole Sign "house borders" commence at 0º of each Sign. That is why it is known as “Whole Sign” houses i.e. because each Whole House IS one Whole Sign.

(2) When using Whole Sign house system, the Ascendant degree of the natal chart determines the sensitive points aka “cusps” within each subsequent Whole Sign house. Thus, given that the Ascendant degree using Whole Sign house system is at 14
º Libra, THEN the sensitive point aka “cusp” of every Whole Sign house of that particular nativity is also 14º.

i.e. IF Ascendant degree using Whole Sign house system = 14º Libra
THEN :

2
nd House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Scorpio
3
rd House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Sagittarius
4
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Capricorn
5
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Aquarius
6
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Pisces
7
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Aries
8
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Taurus
9
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Gemini
10
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Cancer
11
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Leo
12
th House sensitive point aka “cusp” = 14º Virgo

Historically, Whole Sign predates Equal House

Clearly then, "Equal House" simply discarded the original practice of commencing the border of each house at 0
º of each Sign BY REPLACING it with the idea of the “sensitive points” aka “cusps” themselves being “borders”

Equal House confused “sensitive points” aka “cusps” with “borders”

Hellenistic astrologers today use Whole Sign houses as the ancient method intended i.e. by commencing each "house border" at 0
º of each Sign AND ALSO NOTING the "sensitive points" aka "cusps" WITHIN each Whole Sign house as determined by the particular Ascendant degree i.e. the Ascendant degree did not always correspond to the "middle of a house" aka e.g. 15º Libra

dr farr also states:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dr. farr Transits or progressions in whole sign, relative to "cusps" are to the sensitive degree of each sign/house, which is the degree of the ascendant projected into that house/sign (eg, if the ascending degree were 18, then the sensitive point of each of the following sign/houses would be 18: transits or progressions to the 18th degree of any sign/house would be the point delineated) We also get a "bonus" relative to transits and progressions in whole sign because in addition to the sensitive point we can also delineate when the border (0 degree) of the sign/house is crossed by transit or progression as well (although more emphasis is usually given when the transit or progression hits the sensitive point of the sign/house)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
#54
04-18-2012, 12:04 AM
 Moog Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: In The Litter Tray Posts: 2,703
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel Now someone correct me if I am wrong but....Whole Sign is not really a house system but, a lack thereof.
That's quite interesting. I suppose it depends how you look at it, or what you want to call things. I can see it both ways.

I see a 'house' as a collection of significations dependent not on the inherent nature of the signs occupying a space, but on the position of that space relative to a point (ascendant).

Quote:
 Comparitively, Equal house system is a house system distinct from the signs but, Whole Sign is simply that, signs...no houses. So, for example, the ASC in Whole Sign can be under the earth which, really makes no sense as it is the 'rising sign' but, I get the fact that Whole Sign system takes the 'rising sign' and simply put the whole sing first rather than the actual ASC.
You're right, it doesn't make sense to have it under the earth. The astro.com chart maker does draw the whole sign chart ascendant on a slant, but that's not how it should be. I don't know if other packages also do it that way. The ascendant should remain horizontal. The portion of the sign that precedes the ascendant sits over the top of the horizon.
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Last edited by Moog; 04-18-2012 at 12:08 AM.
#55
04-18-2012, 12:30 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 34,750
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel ......So, for example, the ASC in Whole Sign can be under the earth which, really makes no sense as it is the 'rising sign' but, I get the fact that Whole Sign system takes the 'rising sign' and simply put the whole sing first rather than the actual ASC
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Moog You're right, it doesn't make sense to have it under the earth. The astro.com chart maker does draw the whole sign chart ascendant on a slant, but that's not how it should be. I don't know if other packages also do it that way. The ascendant should remain horizontal. The portion of the sign that precedes the ascendant sits over the top of the horizon.
Not exactly. Remember that Astrological software is imperfect. For those accustomed to thinking of the Ascendant/Descendant as being on a horizontal straight line, Whole Sign Houses requires the realisation that the horizontal straight line with which computer software illustrates the Ascendant/Descendant axis is "incorrect" in the sense that the so-called Ascendant/Descendant axis in reality forms part of a great CIRCLE known as the HORIZON...

THEREFORE the ascendant/descendant axis is CURVED. BUT does computer software illustrate that? No! It does not!

Software is no substitute for looking at the skies. The Ascendant in Whole Sign houses IS NOT "under the earth"!

Go outdoors and observe a horizon that is unobstructed by buildings (for those of us in cities/towns that is not so easy obviously!) .... such a horizon is CURVED in relation to an observer located in the centre of the Great Circle of that Horizon.

To the observer's East is the Ascendant and to the observer's West is the Descendant which are LOCATED OPPOSITE EACH OTHER ON A CURVE THAT FORMS PART OF THE GREAT CIRCLE OF THE HORIZON!

ABOVE the Great Circle of that Horizon is the DOME of the skies

and

the Great Circle of the Horizon is ENCOMPASSED by the Celestial Sphere

Does computer software illustrate the world EXACTLY AS IT APPEARS TO THE OBSERVER? No it does not! Instead, a mathematical FLAT two-dimensional APPROXIMATION of a three dimensional "reality" is illustrated.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 04-18-2012 at 12:35 AM.
#56
04-18-2012, 12:40 AM
 Moog Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: In The Litter Tray Posts: 2,703
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Would drawing the ascendant curved help any?
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My Chart, Tropical
#57
04-18-2012, 12:44 AM
 Moog Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: In The Litter Tray Posts: 2,703
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Oops, I said that in your voice... I'm a ventriloquist!

Sorry.

I was actually referring to the drawing of the ascendant on the charts... I mean you could draw it curved, but I'm not sure what benefit would be derived from doing so.
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My Chart, Tropical
#58
04-18-2012, 12:49 AM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,084
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JUPITERASC Not exactly. Remember that Astrological software is imperfect. For those accustomed to thinking of the Ascendant/Descendant as being on a horizontal straight line, Whole Sign Houses requires the realisation that the horizontal straight line with which computer software illustrates the Ascendant/Descendant axis is "incorrect" in the sense that the so-called Ascendant/Descendant axis in reality forms part of a great CIRCLE known as the HORIZON... THEREFORE the ascendant/descendant axis is CURVED. BUT does computer software illustrate that? No! It does not! Software is no substitute for looking at the skies. The Ascendant in Whole Sign houses IS NOT "under the earth"! Go outdoors and observe a horizon that is unobstructed by buildings (for those of us in cities/towns that is not so easy obviously!) .... such a horizon is CURVED in relation to an observer located in the centre of the Great Circle of that Horizon. To the observer's East is the Ascendant and to the observer's West is the Descendant which are LOCATED OPPOSITE EACH OTHER ON A CURVE THAT FORMS PART OF THE GREAT CIRCLE OF THE HORIZON! ABOVE the Great Circle of that Horizon is the DOME of the skies and the Great Circle of the Horizon is ENCOMPASSED by the Celestial Sphere Does computer software illustrate the world EXACTLY AS IT APPEARS TO THE OBSERVER? No it does not! Instead, a mathematical FLAT two-dimensional APPROXIMATION of a three dimensional "reality" is illustrated.
The only time I've ever been able to observe the curviture of the horizon is on the Great Plains, or from an airplane. My math has never been very good, but isn't an axis in this case a straight line drawn from one point to another? In this case from the ASC to the DC? One point on the celestial sphere to another?

I do think the better point to this post JUPITERASC is that sometimes it's a good idea for astrologers to go outside, and just...look at the stars.
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"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
#59
04-18-2012, 12:55 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 34,750
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsmall The only time I've ever been able to observe the curviture of the horizon is on the Great Plains, or from an airplane. My math has never been very good, but isn't an axis in this case a straight line drawn from one point to another? In this case from the ASC to the DC? One point on the celestial sphere to another?
The Ascendant and Descendant ARE opposite each other AND on a Great Circle known as the Horizon which is also a "plane" - so that "straight line" everyone observes across the centre of every natal chart as drawn by astrological software actually is illustrating a plane as represented by the Great CIRCLE of the Horizon.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsmall I do think the better point to this post JUPITERASC is that sometimes it's a good idea for astrologers to go outside, and just...look at the stars.
AND the HORIZON
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
#60
04-18-2012, 01:05 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 34,750
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Moog Oops, I said that in your voice... I'm a ventriloquist! Sorry. I was actually referring to the drawing of the ascendant on the charts... I mean you could draw it curved, but I'm not sure what benefit would be derived from doing so.
Moog, when one views a circle from the side then one is viewing a straight line that is descriptive of a plane. Picture a straight line. Then picture that straight line as being part of a circle as viewed from the side
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
#61
04-18-2012, 01:17 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 34,750
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Alternatively, shine an imaginary white spot light onto an imaginary sphere. The imaginary beam of bright white light from the imaginary spot light illuminates a circular portion of the imaginary sphere.

Furthermore, suppose the imaginary sphere is planet Earth, and an imaginary person is standing in the center of the spotlight - under those circumstances then, that "spot" of bright white light is illustrative of what that observer experiences as their “local horizon” Suppose you could pick up that "spot" of light and flatten it and view it from the side... then it would look like "a straight line"... it's all relative
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 04-18-2012 at 01:20 AM.
#62
04-18-2012, 01:30 AM
 SniperBomber328 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Unknown to prying eyes Posts: 572
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Carris I read that link - it does not connect with what I'm quoting from chaldean astrology - it would have clearly mentioned "comes forth before the sun" instead of: If a child is born when the moon has come forth, (then his life will be) bright, excellent, regular and long. If a child is born when Jupiter has come forth, (then his life will be) regular, well; he will become rich, he will grow old, (his) days will be long. "If a child is born when Venus has come forth, (then his life will be) exceptionally calm; wherever he may go, it will be favorable; his days will be long. and The Greek word horoscopos literally means: "I watch that which is rising" Originally the word was not used to refer to the whole planetary pattern at the moment of birth, as it is today, but only to the point of the zodiac rising over the horizon at the exact moment of birth. The idea is that, at birth, the infant is submitted to the influence of the constellation that is also being born.
. If what your saying is true then I am terrified. My Jupiter and Venus are "coming forth" as the above statement states. Since my Sun is 2 degrees above my AC. So in Placidus that would be the 12th, but in whole sign, the 1st.
#63
04-18-2012, 02:50 AM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,084
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 . If what your saying is true then I am terrified. My Jupiter and Venus are "coming forth" as the above statement states. Since my Sun is 2 degrees above my AC. So in Placidus that would be the 12th, but in whole sign, the 1st.
Sniper, I don't understand why Carris' post would make you terrified. Do you have a chart somewhere? You have said that you have Jupiter and Venus "coming forth" and that quote above says nothing negative about this.

Sun 2* above the ASC, in the same sign would yes be in the 1st, and in sect, where as Sun 2* below the ASC would still be in 1st, but out of sect. See how there can be differences in delineating the condition of the planets, even when using whole sign?
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"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
#64
04-18-2012, 02:55 AM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,084
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Carris The Greek word horoscopos literally means: "I watch that which is rising" Originally the word was not used to refer to the whole planetary pattern at the moment of birth, as it is today, but only to the point of the zodiac rising over the horizon at the exact moment of birth. The idea is that, at birth, the infant is submitted to the influence of the constellation that is also being born.
Carris, I meant to comment on this earlier. What you have said here I agree with, but if you were to go outside at the moment of birth, and be able to look at the ascending stars, and see the constellation that is ascending on the horizon, most times it would not correspond with the tropical rising sign. I don't mean to divert the thread any farther than it already has been, but it is a point to make. The constellations are not any longer associated with the tropical signs, unless you use/consider the fixed stars in your delineations.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
#65
04-18-2012, 03:10 AM
 SniperBomber328 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Unknown to prying eyes Posts: 572
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsmall Sniper, I don't understand why Carris' post would make you terrified. Do you have a chart somewhere? You have said that you have Jupiter and Venus "coming forth" and that quote above says nothing negative about this. Sun 2* above the ASC, in the same sign would yes be in the 1st, and in sect, where as Sun 2* below the ASC would still be in 1st, but out of sect. See how there can be differences in delineating the condition of the planets, even when using whole sign?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsmall Carris, I meant to comment on this earlier. What you have said here I agree with, but if you were to go outside at the moment of birth, and be able to look at the ascending stars, and see the constellation that is ascending on the horizon, most times it would not correspond with the tropical rising sign. I don't mean to divert the thread any farther than it already has been, but it is a point to make. The constellations are not any longer associated with the tropical signs, unless you use/consider the fixed stars in your delineations.
I meant terrified in the sense that "if such things" i.e what Carris has written be true, the idea of such things terrify me, not necessarily in a negative fashion.

Laugh out loud on the second bolded red area; hasn't the thread diverted far from my beginning post (which I don't mind, so if any moderator comes and views a/the post(s), please don't move it/them)? Nonetheless, I feel as if the posts are very helpful to those who want to know more about anything being said here. So thanks to everyone.

P.S. My Sun is in the same sign as my AC, but rises before my AC so therefore in sect as tsmall has suggested. Despite that, my Jupiter rises before my Sun, but is conjunct. my AC nonetheless. My Venus also rises before my Sun and is less than 30* from my AC, which I guess is sort of "coming forth" when compared to Jupiter who is "coming forth". Thanks everyone for all the posts, they are very insightful.
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Last edited by SniperBomber328; 04-18-2012 at 03:14 AM.
#66
04-18-2012, 03:16 AM
 dr. farr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: los angeles california Posts: 12,474
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Later Hellenist (and also Islamic transitional era) authorities considered that the superior planets are "best off" when rising ahead of the Sun (ie, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) and that the inferior planets (Venus, Mercury, Moon) are "best off" rising after the Sun (these considerations being SEPERATE from the issue of sect)
#67
04-18-2012, 04:44 AM
 Carris Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 274
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

But Dr Farr, when the planets are rising just before the sun (or near about the sun) they are at their farthest from the earth (thats why combust is considered weak) except of course mercury and venus which can be in front of the sun. So why should planets be "best off" when rising ahead of the sun? When they are almost at their farthest from the earth? See the attached drawing.

Sandstone wrote this on the "What happens when you have no recorded birth time?" thread

"further to moog's comment, one can run a chart off any point in the chart, not just the moon.. a popular one that gets used when no time of birth is available is sun as the ascendant.. this produces solar houses which have a lot of merit.. also, the sun is a natural first house candidate as the most common time of the day for a person to be born is close to sunrise... i like working with solar houses even when i know the birth time as i find the information helpful for understanding the chart better.. in 2 of the examples i used on the 12th house thread, madoff has saturn in solar 12th, while dsk has mars and moon in solar 12th.. these positions are an interesting backdrop if you know much about the lives of these people.."

In Madoff's case, saturn in his solar 12th would be at almost at its furthest point from earth and maybe that is why Madoff had no sense of honor and responsibility. Similarly Mars in dsk's solar 12th would be at its furthest and therefore caused dsk to be a coward and a bully.

Last edited by Carris; 04-18-2012 at 05:29 PM.
#68
04-18-2012, 05:03 AM
 Carris Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 274
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsmall In the example you give of your own Saturn in Gemini it is 20* above the ASC, and so in the 12th by sign and cadent by angularity. However, Saturn is said to joy in the 12th.
Yes definitely saturn joys in the 12th because saturn is all about discipline, responsibility, austerity, moderation, hard work, a higher purpose, a greater good, which is what comes naturally to the 12th house...

The 12th house is that of gentlemen - being considerate, compassionate, spiritual, selfless, wanting to be of help and service, patient, tolerant, well-spoken, well-bred, gentle, patient, kind, helpful, tactful, etc. This quiet, well-bred gentleman is seen by loud, crass, vulgar, materialistic people as being "hidden" or invisible. The 12th is not hidden and planets in the 12th are not hidden, they just become gentlemen themselves - thats all.

All the planets in the 12th are affected by this "gentlemanly" quality of the 12th - even mars. A gentleman goes out of his way to be good to others - even if this means inconvenience to himself - the selfish material world unfortunately sees this as a foolish, self destructive thing. This gentleman (with high morals, principles, ethics, values) gets depressed when he sees the ill-bred, selfish, superficial, corrupt behavior of the world - and thus might want solitude and isolation - or to concentrate on his work and service to mankind.

I am very happy with my 12th saturn.

SniperBomber

Your sun, jupiter and venus rising causes the qualities of these planets to be harnessed and channeled towards the good of all. Planets in the Gauquelin 12th harness qualities of the planets for goodness eg. Mars' energy, aggression, impatience and dynamism is channelled for the benefit and service of mankind as doctors, surgeons, sports persons, military people, business executives. The discipline, patience, structure, depth, caution, responsibility, stability, patience of saturn is harnessed to make scientists and physicians that serve mankind.
#69
04-18-2012, 05:04 AM
 dr. farr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: los angeles california Posts: 12,474
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Right, but it is a matter of degree: a planet say 20 degrees ahead of the Sun is not combust, even by the exaggerated combustion orbs applied by the ancients. They considered a superior planet NOT IN COMBUSTION, but rising ahead of the Sun, to be a dignity for that planet, and for an inferior planet NOT IN COMBUSTION, rising after the Sun, to be a dignity for that planet. These were Hellenist and Islamic-transitional era doctrines, which were then also connected with the concept of sect, along with other considerations, in coming to a determination of the net dignity/debility of the planets.

I myself, do not credit these doctrines: even regarding the question of sect, I consider it to be a minor issue; in my own thoughts regarding these matters I have been influenced more by Modernist concepts; here I am merely describing the oldtime doctrines regarding how dignities/debilities relative to a planet's relationship with the Sun, were considered in the oldtime literature. prior to around the 14th century.

(Note: regarding the 12th house in Vedic astrology, this house was/is considered primarily the house of expenditures, both regarding money and personal efforts/energies, events causing expenditures of \$ or effort or energy; and also as a house of liberation, renunciation, obtaining release, obtaining freedom; and the ramifications of such expenditures of energy, or time, or money, upon the individual; by and large, the Vedic understanding of 12th house significations is not as generally negativistic as concepts regarding this house as developed through the Western astrological tradition over the centuries)

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-18-2012 at 05:10 AM.
#70
04-18-2012, 06:40 AM
 sandstone Banned Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: bestcoast of canada Posts: 1,060
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

carris,

thanks for sharing the pic of your chart.. that is informative..

i find it tricky to have a conversation with you, but at any rate i would like to comment on some of the loose ideas that are rolling around on the floor of the conversation here and see if i can pick up some stuff off the floor while i am at it..

planetary strength by phase is an interesting concept that has to be given consideration.. i think it has to be done within context of the rest of the insight we might be able to get off a chart too though.. in the example on madoff that i provided, saturn by phase is indeed strong - in the solar 12th to sun, but remember that saturn is in the sign aries which presents a bit of a problem as this is not a favourable sign position for saturn to fulfill many of the fine qualities it is capable of.. instead one is more likely tempted to take a strongly individualistic path that may clash with the values and rules of the society they find themselves living within, which is one way to think of how madoff lived.. strong by planetary phase, while weak by sign might then be thought to strengthen a situation not all the favourable in the long run - which is truly a saturn concept if there was one -in the ''long run'', lol...

the example of dsk is again a good example with this concept of planetary phase, as on the one hand mars would be strong in the solar 12th in the sign aries as well and we see a person who has been accused and/or up on a few different sexual predator type charges while managing to break free of them up to a point.. one would need to look to another part of the chart to get a better grip on the overall motivations of dsk, but the moon in the solar 12th is not a position of planetary phase strength here as i mentioned in the previous thread, the moon is an exception and is in the final phase just prior to a new moon here.. being in the sign aries doesn't open the person up to a consideration of others feelings so much, nor does the planetary phase strengthen the moon any in this position which seems fairly apparent in what appears to be a pronounced insensitivity of dsk to others, women in particular which could be well represented by this same moon position..

now where were we?

please think about giving a link to the many quotes you grab and share without offering a connection back to the source so others can follow the information flow more easily.. also consider sharing links when you are quoting from various sources to help everyone appreciate more of the nuances that are often needed to appreciate what it is you are graciously sharing.. thanks.

Last edited by sandstone; 04-18-2012 at 06:43 AM.
#71
04-18-2012, 09:37 AM
 Carris Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 274
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by sandstone carris, thanks for sharing the pic of your chart.. that is informative.. i find it tricky to have a conversation with you, but at any rate i would like to comment on some of the loose ideas that are rolling around on the floor of the conversation here and see if i can pick up some stuff off the floor while i am at it.. planetary strength by phase is an interesting concept that has to be given consideration.. i think it has to be done within context of the rest of the insight we might be able to get off a chart too though.. in the example on madoff that i provided, saturn by phase is indeed strong - in the solar 12th to sun, but remember that saturn is in the sign aries which presents a bit of a problem as this is not a favourable sign position for saturn to fulfill many of the fine qualities it is capable of.. instead one is more likely tempted to take a strongly individualistic path that may clash with the values and rules of the society they find themselves living within, which is one way to think of how madoff lived.. strong by planetary phase, while weak by sign might then be thought to strengthen a situation not all the favourable in the long run - which is truly a saturn concept if there was one -in the ''long run'', lol... the example of dsk is again a good example with this concept of planetary phase, as on the one hand mars would be strong in the solar 12th in the sign aries as well and we see a person who has been accused and/or up on a few different sexual predator type charges while managing to break free of them up to a point.. one would need to look to another part of the chart to get a better grip on the overall motivations of dsk, but the moon in the solar 12th is not a position of planetary phase strength here as i mentioned in the previous thread, the moon is an exception and is in the final phase just prior to a new moon here.. being in the sign aries doesn't open the person up to a consideration of others feelings so much, nor does the planetary phase strengthen the moon any in this position which seems fairly apparent in what appears to be a pronounced insensitivity of dsk to others, women in particular which could be well represented by this same moon position.. now where were we? please think about giving a link to the many quotes you grab and share without offering a connection back to the source so others can follow the information flow more easily.. also consider sharing links when you are quoting from various sources to help everyone appreciate more of the nuances that are often needed to appreciate what it is you are graciously sharing.. thanks.
The quote is on page 93-94

"It is immediately conceivable that there are, above all, two instants suitable for worship of the celestial body: the eagerly anticipated rise on the eastern horizon and the culminating point of its course. In the interpretations by the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians, the risings of the planets are mentioned again and again: "If a child is born while Venus is rising, his life will be quiet, rich, wherever he goes he will be loved, he will live long . . ." (Gundel, 1933). "If a child is born at the instant of Jupiter rising and Mars setting, he will be lucky and will see the fall of his enemy" (Shulman, 1978). The historians of astrology unanimously point out that rise, and increasingly with the Greeks also culmination, were considered to be the most important positions in the planets' diurnal motion (Boll, Bezold, Gundel, 1966, p. 154; Henseling, 1924, p. 76; van der Waerden, 1966, p. 75). According to Plato, who believed the celestial bodies to be the visible gods, the gods were filled with a special joy at the instant of the planets' rise, at culmination point in midheaven, as well as upon meeting a planet with whom they were
"on friendly terms" (Gundel, 1966).
The importance of culmination can also be concluded from reports on the Sabian sect, which developed in the third century from the late-Babylonian astral-religion in the cultural realm of Islam (Bousset, 1973) and continued to exist for centuries. An islamic scholar, Dimeschqui (1265-1 327), reports the following (cited according to Chwolsohn, 1856):

Last edited by Carris; 04-18-2012 at 01:17 PM.
 The Following User Says Thank You to Carris For This Useful Post: Anachiel (04-18-2012)
#72
04-18-2012, 10:39 AM
 Anachiel Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,462
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsmall I'm not sure what you mean by this. Since you quoted my post, I assume you are referring to what I wrote? As I said when I replied to Carris, I am still a new student, but since Carris' question was directed to me I wanted to do my best to reply.
No, no, we're fine. Thank you for the reply. I was not pointing at you but rather to the topic. Sorry for the confusion there.

So, after all these wonderful posts and explanations we now know that:

1) Whole signs is not a house system. It simply starts each house, including the ASC, at the 0 degree of each sign. The actual portion of the 1st house we know as the ASC is actually under the earth and becomes a "sensitive point" or sensitive degree in each house

2) Equal houses is a house system proper and dispensed with the Whole Sign ambiguity and shows the actual ASC as the 1st house and then each house therafter is numbered the same degree.

3) It is possible that "coming forth" dealt with heliacal rising and possibly is not a 1st/12th house issue.

4) Whole signs were used in a specific place and time with a specific method and now by Vedic astrologers who perfected the technique as well as those re-discovering the Greek methods.

5) Whole Signs, and correct me here, is apparently, originally, a SIDEREAL technique. But, as Western astrology tends to be Tropical, I can see some confusion here trying to convert it over....not sure on this yet......this is just a thought....

6) There is a natural evolution of house systems throughout time; as people became more versed with the movemetns of the heavens and earth and their math subsequently evolved as well, we can see these views applied to the house systems themselves in atrology.

Note that in the eary days a Whole Sign was apparently the best they had. Heck! If I was stranded on an island with no Table of Houses I would probably have to use Whole Signs, too lacking any spherical geometry in said condition to calculate anything more specific for interstitial houses.

However, as people and math advances, we see this applied to the division of the chart which more accurately reflected, perceptually, the division of the heavens as well and, with them, an era and system of astrology to match.
__________________
“You are never alone or helpless. The force that guides the stars guides you too.”~ Shrii Shrii Anandamurt
#73
04-18-2012, 12:52 PM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,084
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel No, no, we're fine. Thank you for the reply. I was not pointing at you but rather to the topic. Sorry for the confusion there.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel So, after all these wonderful posts and explanations we now know that: 1) Whole signs is not a house system. It simply starts each house, including the ASC, at the 0 degree of each sign. The actual portion of the 1st house we know as the ASC is actually under the earth and becomes a "sensitive point" or sensitive degree in each house
I don't think that's quite right. Whole signs is a house system as we know them today. In whole signs, house = place = sign. Perhaps you could consider it to be the earliest form of house system, but I don't think that's right either, since I think there was an earlier system. But I'm not quite the ancients scholar some of the others here are. A quick look at Valens, who used whole signs, shows the names of the twelve places. Since earlier in his writings he referred to the signs as signs, the places are I assume what we call houses. The list he gives looks very much like what we associate with each house today.

The acual portion of the 1st house we know as the ASC is the exact degree that was rising on the horizon (emerging from under the earth, if you will) at the moment of birth. Maybe it's semantics, since we can often use words to mean more than one thing. The ascendant is a point, similar to say the PoF, that is contained within the 1st house. It just doesn't mark the boarder of the 1st house. Sometimes we hear/say that the asecendant is the first house, or that the mid heaven is the 10th house and use these ideas interchangeably. With systems that start the houses at these angles, that can make sense. With whole signs this isn't the case, but the ASC is always the ASC, and has the same meaning.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel 2) Equal houses is a house system proper and dispensed with the Whole Sign ambiguity and shows the actual ASC as the 1st house and then each house therafter is numbered the same degree.
Yes, but I still don't think whole sign is really ambiguous.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel 3) It is possible that "coming forth" dealt with heliacal rising and possibly is not a 1st/12th house issue. 4) Whole signs were used in a specific place and time with a specific method and now by Vedic astrologers who perfected the technique as well as those re-discovering the Greek methods.
I think you are right about number 3, and mostly right about number 4. I'm not sure though that whole signs must be/were used with a specific method. Ever have astrologers disagreed on the methods...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel 5) Whole Signs, and correct me here, is apparently, originally, a SIDEREAL technique. But, as Western astrology tends to be Tropical, I can see some confusion here trying to convert it over....not sure on this yet......this is just a thought....
Sidereal maybe in that I think it is older than tropical, though I believe that at the height of the Hellenistic influence there was little difference between the two. I also think that most western astrologers today who use whole signs are using the tropical zodiac. So one doesn't negate the validity of the other, ie whole signs isn't dependant on the sidereal zodiac.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anachiel 6) There is a natural evolution of house systems throughout time; as people became more versed with the movemetns of the heavens and earth and their math subsequently evolved as well, we can see these views applied to the house systems themselves in atrology. Note that in the eary days a Whole Sign was apparently the best they had. Heck! If I was stranded on an island with no Table of Houses I would probably have to use Whole Signs, too lacking any spherical geometry in said condition to calculate anything more specific for interstitial houses. However, as people and math advances, we see this applied to the division of the chart which more accurately reflected, perceptually, the division of the heavens as well and, with them, an era and system of astrology to match.
Maybe, but just reading Valens I'm not sure that the case can be made that it was mathmatical advances that caused the house systems to evolve. It was all math, and quite complicated.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
#74
04-18-2012, 01:21 PM
 Carris Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 274
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Carris This is the link http://www.scientificexploration.org...4_1_muller.pdf The quote is on page 93-94 "It is immediately conceivable that there are, above all, two instants suitable for worship of the celestial body: the eagerly anticipated rise on the eastern horizon and the culminating point of its course. In the interpretations by the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians, the risings of the planets are mentioned again and again: "If a child is born while Venus is rising, his life will be quiet, rich, wherever he goes he will be loved, he will live long . . ." (Gundel, 1933). "If a child is born at the instant of Jupiter rising and Mars setting, he will be lucky and will see the fall of his enemy" (Shulman, 1978). The historians of astrology unanimously point out that rise, and increasingly with the Greeks also culmination, were considered to be the most important positions in the planets' diurnal motion (Boll, Bezold, Gundel, 1966, p. 154; Henseling, 1924, p. 76; van der Waerden, 1966, p. 75). According to Plato, who believed the celestial bodies to be the visible gods, the gods were filled with a special joy at the instant of the planets' rise, at culmination point in midheaven, as well as upon meeting a planet with whom they were "on friendly terms" (Gundel, 1966). The importance of culmination can also be concluded from reports on the Sabian sect, which developed in the third century from the late-Babylonian astral-religion in the cultural realm of Islam (Bousset, 1973) and continued to exist for centuries. An islamic scholar, Dimeschqui (1265-1 327), reports the following (cited according to Chwolsohn, 1856):
These words rise on the eastern horizon and the culminating point of its course, planets' diurnal motion and planets' rise, at culmination point in midheaven, are about houses and Asc and MC. It is not about heliacal rising.

"3) It is possible that "coming forth" dealt with heliacal rising and possibly is not a 1st/12th house issue." - It does not really seem possible - there is no ambiguity in the quote above.

Last edited by Carris; 04-18-2012 at 01:26 PM.
#75
04-18-2012, 02:42 PM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,084
Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Carris These words rise on the eastern horizon and the culminating point of its course, planets' diurnal motion and planets' rise, at culmination point in midheaven, are about houses and Asc and MC. It is not about heliacal rising. "3) It is possible that "coming forth" dealt with heliacal rising and possibly is not a 1st/12th house issue." - It does not really seem possible - there is no ambiguity in the quote above.
Since the quote above does not mention houses at all, I think it is more than possible, especially given that the Sumerians and the Babylonians weren't working with houses, and that when working with whole signs the way the Greeks did, the MC did not define the 10th house. The MC can be found in the 9th, 10th and 11th houses, and I believe at higher lattitudes even the 8th and 12th. Culminating means highest point in the sky. It does not always mean house.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain

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