A question on timing aspects

Hi,
Yesterday I was looking at a chart, where I was trying to work out the timing of contact between two people. The significator was venus and the querent was mars. Now, Venus had two degrees of travel before making the exact aspect to mars, but saturn was very close to being the one aspected first. Now although in my question, saturn did not get in the way,and was not aspected first, I wonder what significance it would have had, if it did?
Can this be answered in a general way? (As a rule of thumb for all questions of this nature?)

Could anyone help?

Thanks
 

archergirl

Well-known member
Hi,

Speaking in real time, Saturn will actually interfere with the Mars/Venus aspect in any chart done right now; Mars reaches Saturn before the Mars/Venus trine can perfect, although it's a very close call. This is called frustration, and it means just that!;) In questions of timing, you can't ignore things like refrenation and frustration; they are very much a part of the answer.

If Saturn *weren't* in the way, hypothetically, you would count the degrees until perfection (say, 'two'), and then judge by the speed of the houses and the speed of the signs the two planets were in.

Does this help?

Cheers,
AG:)
 
Thanks Archergirl. It does help, but it has brought up another question! :)

In timing what does frustration do exactly? Does it have a general effect on the perfection? I have looked up refrenation and think I understand that it has to be one of the significators reversing for it be significant, but Saturn is not one of the significators here. It is retro though. Can you help further?

Thanks
 
Last edited:

pwadm

Staff member
Frustration impedes the event from actual happening, leaving the persons, well... frustrated. Timing is only relevant when the event is sure to happen.

Refranation is a different thing, with the same result though: the negative answer.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Lemme try to explain

Andy adn Bob, who are planning to meet and do something together

Interference

Andy meets Alex on his way to meet Bob (intervening aspect)
Andy will feel distracted or expierence delay

Frustiration

Andy plans to meet Bob (conjunction) but Bob first meets with Alex before Andy meets Bob. That is frustiration

Prohibition
If Andy plans to help *trine* Bob but Alex opposes, then that's prohibition

Makes sense?

Tik
 
Tik,

Sorry for my wording here but its the way I am picturing whats going on.
So for interference its the applying planet that has to aspect a third planet before the receiving planet.
For frustration, the recieving planet aspects a 3rd planet before receiving the applying planet. As useless as that aspect is.
It doesnt have to be a conjunction does it?
For prohibition this is where I am not sure. Who is Alex opposing? Andy, who is applying towards trining Bob. I think thats the only way it can go isnt it?

Thankyou
 

archergirl

Well-known member
Hi L2J,

Prohibition is the general term for whatever prevents an aspect from perfecting. Frustration is a specific type of prohibition. Refrenation is slightly different.

I'll paraphrase Frawley a little bit here (from The Horary Textbook p 94, if you're wondering;) ).

Examples of prohibition:

Planet A is applying to Planet B, but Planet A bumps into Planet C first.

Planet A is applying to Planet B, but Planet C aspects Planet B first.

Planet A is applying to Planet B, but before this aspect perfects, Planet C aspects Planet A.

Example of frustration:

Planet A is applying to Planet B, but before the aspect is made, Planet B makes an aspect with Planet C.

Also, if Planet B enters the next sign before Planet A can perfect the aspect, this is frustration.

Example of refrenation:

Planet A applies to Planet B, but before the aspect perfects, Planet A turns retrograde, so the aspect fails to perfect.

Frawley also notes that this doesn't always mean that whatever is being planned won't happen just because there is a prohibition; but this is highly dependent upon the planetary strength, receptions, and the context of the question.

Hope this clarifies it a bit!
Best,
AG:)
 

starlink

Well-known member
Hi AG, these two are indeed very similar :

Planet A is applying to Planet B, but Planet C aspects Planet B first (=prohibition)

and

Planet A is applying to Planet B, but before the aspect is made, Planet B makes an aspect with Planet C.(=frustration)

The only difference then is that in the first example C moves to B and in the 2nd ex. B moves to C

I am glad that it is now a bit clearer to me. Generally, I understood the idea of these, but the very slight difference is the difficulty for me.
Also I find it very difficult to see this in a chart, really have to put my glasses on for these things.
I am glad that Looking to JUpiter asked this question.

Cheers, Star.
 

CuriousGirl

Well-known member
archergirl said:
Speaking in real time, Saturn will actually interfere with the Mars/Venus aspect in any chart done right now; Mars reaches Saturn before the Mars/Venus trine can perfect, although it's a very close call. This is called frustration, and it means just that!;) In questions of timing, you can't ignore things like refrenation and frustration; they are very much a part of the answer.

A few thoughts (and I might be totally wrong on this, but still...)

I've read in Frawley's book that frustrations don't always mean that the answer is no, it depends on the strength of the planets. Venus is quite strong now, since she is exalted in Pisces; Mars is weaker as he is in fall in Cancer (though at least he is in triplicity as well -- I don't know which is stronger), Saturn is weak because he is retrograde.

Also, I guess it also depends on the strength of aspects. Example: A few days ago I read a horary chart about money matters, Mercury (ruler of asc) was only 2 degrees before a conjunction with Venus (ruler of money), showing I'll get the money within 2 days, but before he could conjunct Venus, Moon was opposing him. Maybe because it was a somewhat weak moon, maybe because conjunction is stronger than opposition, but Moon did not do anything to frustrate it and I got the money.

(Yes I know that Moon was also a significator of mine, but if Moon signified me in the chart, then I would have got the money within 4 days not in 2 days because she opposed Venus 4 degrees later. Also, oppositions usually mean no, or so I have experienced.)

The trine is generally a stronger aspect than a sextile so I guess the sextile between Mars and Saturn can not frustrate a trine between Venus and Mars, or at least not always.
 
Well just to let you all know, the frustration in my question DID NOT, stop anything happening and everything went along well as the trine indicated it would. The timing was a bit strange, but hey, the timing seems to be a bit strange on alot of charts.
Pity subsequent charts havent looked as promising.:rolleyes:
 

CuriousGirl

Well-known member
Looking to Jupiter said:
Well just to let you all know, the frustration in my question DID NOT, stop anything happening and everything went along well as the trine indicated it would. The timing was a bit strange, but hey, the timing seems to be a bit strange on alot of charts.
Pity subsequent charts havent looked as promising.:rolleyes:

Thanks so much!
My interest in this was somewhat selfish since I had a similar chart recently (here)and I really don't need that Saturn aspect spoil everything :)
 
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