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  #26  
Unread 01-14-2017, 03:59 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibylline View Post

Jupiter, your jumping into lecture when you haven't read and/or understood the discussion
is not necessary or appreciated.

That comment was in reference to the charts I have studied.
With the vast majority of the charts I have studied,
the sidereal Ascendant is completely off -
- that is a fact.
I don't know what muchacho or other siderealists have studied
and would never assume to.
That unnecessary innuendo regarding my comprehension of the discussion
is not appreciated
the fact is this is a thread on the public online forum
this thread is neither a private pm discussion nor your personal blog
anyone may comment
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibylline View Post

It still works because Aries-Libra is always an equinox,
Cancer-Capricorn always a solstice.
Aries-Libra IS "always an Equinox"

BUT

Aries SPRING Equinox in Northern climes
is
Aries AUTUMN Equinox in Southern climes

and so on

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibylline View Post

No, it isn't.
You're confusing seasons with climates,
which are not the same.
Seasons are not unexpectedly ASSOCIATED WITH climate
Aries Equinox in Northern Climes heralds the SPRING
and the Northern Hemisphere Climate favors new growth
this is completely at odds with
the Southern climes
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibylline View Post

Seasons exist all over the globe,
no matter how large or small the difference in climate may seem.
Btw, near the equator there are certainly climate changes.
I would know because I lived in a country right above the equatorial line for a year.
Seasons are quite simply linked with climate

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  #27  
Unread 01-14-2017, 04:27 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
No, it isn't. You're confusing seasons with climates, which are not the same. Seasons exist all over the globe, no matter how large or small the difference in climate may seem.

Btw, near the equator there are certainly climate changes. I would know because I lived in a country right above the equatorial line for a year.
What are the 4 distinct seasons you've experienced on the equator?
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Unread 01-14-2017, 04:51 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
What are the 4 distinct seasons you've experienced on the equator?
I can't tell if you're being serious or not, since you can Google these sorts of things.

Seasons are not equivalent to weather, again. There are the rainy and dry periods in tropics which people mistakenly call seasons. Weather is only one aspect of a season, and many people in the tropical climates are aware of the others and have developed patterns around them. If you'd like to know what they are, you can research them.

In any case, while I don't find either "bogus", I don't find the seasonal or the celestial theories to be quite adequate. Although I think many phenomena can be explained logically or soon will be explained, astrological patterns is one I'm not sure that humans will ever have the tools or capacity to fully explain the mechanics of.
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  #29  
Unread 01-14-2017, 05:05 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

In my opinion, the seasons are not sufficient to describe all of the elemental and modality attributes of the signs anyway, the signs are symmetrically related to the planets in the order from the Sun to Saturn. But still there is some synchronistic correspondence to the seasons. Astrology as we use it had it's birth in the northern hemisphere, it then makes sense that the synchronistic correspondence related to the seasons would correspond to this hemisphere. Kind of like how the birth of cinema corresponded to the discovery of Neptune and atomic energy to the timing of the discovery of Pluto.

Astrology's beginning (Aries) was in northern hemisphere, so perhaps this is why the northern spring equinox works to mark the beginning of zodiac all over the world. Synchronistic correspondence, like the discovery of new planets.
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  #30  
Unread 01-15-2017, 12:28 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
I can't tell if you're being serious or not, since you can Google these sorts of things.

Seasons are not equivalent to weather, again. There are the rainy and dry periods in tropics which people mistakenly call seasons. Weather is only one aspect of a season, and many people in the tropical climates are aware of the others and have developed patterns around them. If you'd like to know what they are, you can research them.

In any case, while I don't find either "bogus", I don't find the seasonal or the celestial theories to be quite adequate. Although I think many phenomena can be explained logically or soon will be explained, astrological patterns is one I'm not sure that humans will ever have the tools or capacity to fully explain the mechanics of.
You see, your story keeps changing. Now you are conceding that people usually distinguish only between 2 'seasons' in the tropics (based on rain patterns) which can't really be called seasons. And that's what I've been saying all along!

The reason I am asking is because you've said that the mutable signs mark the end of the seasons. There are 4 mutable signs: Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces. Which means there must be 4 seasons. And as I've already said, a valid astrological theory should work for the entire globe, not just for the temperate climate zone of the northern hemisphere. Which means according to your theory there must be 4 distinct seasons at the equator as well. But that's not the case as google and personal experience should tell you.

Here's a definition for 'season':

Quote:
season:

each of the four divisions of the year (spring, summer, autumn, and winter) marked by particular weather patterns and daylight hours, resulting from the earth's changing position with regard to the sun.

At the equator, temperatures stay basically the same thru-out the year as do daylight hours. The only thing that may change is the amount of rain. Which means there actually aren't any seasons at the equator based on above definition.

And the fact that even to tropical astrologers Aries is always Aries - no matter if someone is born in the northern hemisphere, at the equator or in the southern hemisphere where you have either 4 distinct seasons, no seasons at all or all 4 seasons reversed in order - makes the seasonal argument such a bogus explanation.
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  #31  
Unread 01-15-2017, 02:17 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

muchacho,

I haven't conceded or changed anything. I said "mistakenly" because confusing weather for seasons is clearly quite common. You're assuming (or telling me, oddly) what my personal experience was like. In the equatorial country I lived they have four different names for the four different seasons (these can be found in Google also, btw). Believe it or not -- that's your choice.

Anyway, since I'm not at all a fan of never-ending debates or repeating myself, I think I'm done with this portion of the discussion. I didn't come to this thread to discuss theories behind the tropical zodiac anyway, because like I said, the theories are good but not perfect. I wanted to discuss using the tropical zodiac in Vedic astrology, i.e. if there were any Vedic astrologers or students who have experience with using both zodiacs and/or were interested in the differences that result. It seems no one is interested in that.

Last edited by sibylline; 01-15-2017 at 02:22 AM.
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  #32  
Unread 01-15-2017, 09:59 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

I'm genuinely interested in it, mainly because the tropical whole sign ascendant has worked so well for me on certain things and the vedic system is balanced and makes sense. The Vedas had good ancient knowledge too.

I am willing to test other astrological methods for other things and I am interested in the difference. For example, I think it is possible tropical western placidus could be useful for certain things, tropical whole sign vedic for others, and sidereal vedic for even more things. I want to find out the accurate difference.

Statements such as "a valid astrological theory should work for the entire globe, not just for the temperate climate zone of the northern hemisphere" aren't actually that true either. They are human projections. A valid astrological theory should work because it is tested as working, not because a human wants it to work in a certain way. If it only works in one certain area, then it only works in one certain area. If there are other methods that work in other areas, then they work in other areas. Disregarding either results is a problem here.

Is it really so hard to accept that tropical could work for some things and sidereal for others and to objectively try to test what works best in what specific areas? The idea that there has to be a perfectionistic one-size fits all method for everything on either side is precisely why there is a pointless endless argument around ego and theory and not results.

Personally, so far I have found my whole sign tropical vedic ascendant in the birth chart to make the most sense in both myself and others for very basic general house and sign predictive astrology. However, I do think that placidus or sidereal may work better for certain planetary aspects and nakshatras. I am open to this being different for a range of things such as time, place of birth, current age, other factors due to navamsas etc...

But the main point is to find out what works and why. The earth could be geocentric, heliocentric, sidereal, tropical, and it still won't change if something works or not. Starting off from the position that it does is limiting to finding the best specific methods.

Last edited by Taurus9; 01-15-2017 at 10:01 AM.
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  #33  
Unread 01-15-2017, 12:03 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
muchacho,

I haven't conceded or changed anything. I said "mistakenly" because confusing weather for seasons is clearly quite common. You're assuming (or telling me, oddly) what my personal experience was like. In the equatorial country I lived they have four different names for the four different seasons (these can be found in Google also, btw). Believe it or not -- that's your choice.

Anyway, since I'm not at all a fan of never-ending debates or repeating myself, I think I'm done with this portion of the discussion. I didn't come to this thread to discuss theories behind the tropical zodiac anyway, because like I said, the theories are good but not perfect. I wanted to discuss using the tropical zodiac in Vedic astrology, i.e. if there were any Vedic astrologers or students who have experience with using both zodiacs and/or were interested in the differences that result. It seems no one is interested in that.
According to the definition of 'season' I gave above there are no real seasons at the equator. What is your definition of 'season'?

You probably better contact Wilhelm personally because it looks like tropical vedic astrology may just be a phenomenon of a handful of astrologers only. He seems to be the source and he may tell you more about the hows and whys.
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  #34  
Unread 01-15-2017, 02:31 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Perhaps the best way of investigating the zodiac is to look at stelliums and large
concentration of planets imo.
Here is a thread looling into the Sidereal constellations in some interesting
charts from searches in the Solar Fire search module.
Random looking at specific ascendants et.c may be more inclined to be biased
perception.

http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi...42585632/19#19




.

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  #35  
Unread 01-15-2017, 02:32 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Here's some quotes from Wilhelm from question I emailed some time ago, we didn't have an extended discussion, he was just answering a question I asked as to why he wasn't using sidereal:

Quote:
I did use sidereal, but after testing both and having tropical come out on top in every technique, I swapped to tropical. I do not think there is any use of the sidereal zodiac and I think its just the result of the Hindus having lost the knowledge of precession between 00and 600 AD.
Quote:
I use different calculations than most other vedic
astrologers, though there is two groups in India that does some of the
calculations the same way as I do...
I use tropical rasis with sidereal nakshatras as that is
what the Indian astronomy books previous 600AD are doing. I tested that
versus sidereal rasis for 2 years, after having used sidereal rasis for 12
years, but tropical rasis tested out better with every technique so in 2007
I made the switch.
...
If you want to learn more about it please visit
http://www.vedic-astrology.net/FreeC...-and-Rasis.asp
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  #36  
Unread 01-15-2017, 02:44 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Here's a video of a vedic astrologer who switched to using the tropical zodiac and as a result his astrology consultation client base doubled within a few months due to his readings becoming much more accurate and his clients recommending him by word of mouth.

Does the Tropical or Sidereal Zodiac Work Better for Vedic Astrology

^ Good video
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Unread 01-15-2017, 04:08 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanti View Post
Perhaps the best way of investigating the zodiac is to look at stelliums and large
concentration of planets imo.
Looking at stelliums and other concentrations would tip the scales to tropical, in my mind. We don't know public figures well enough to say which chart fits best and you could easily point to other factors to explain the traits we do see. I happen to know a lot of people personally, however, who have stelliums in a sign or overwhelming predominance in an element. In tropical their temperament and tendencies fit perfectly, in Vedic they move back a sign/element and make no sense whatsoever. Currently, I don't think personality profile and temperament are where sidereal makes its best case.
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  #38  
Unread 01-15-2017, 04:18 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

HoldorFold, thank you for the information and videos.

What actually caused you to rethink using sidereal with Vedic? Was it Wilhelm? I admit, I'd never heard of these people before you mentioned them.
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Unread 01-15-2017, 11:14 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurus9 View Post
The earth could be geocentric, heliocentric, sidereal, tropical, and it still won't change if something works or not. Starting off from the position that it does is limiting to finding the best specific methods.
Geocentric means earth centered, heliocentric means sun centered. Depending on where you live - earth or sun - you'll have to choose one model over the other.
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Unread 01-15-2017, 11:21 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanti View Post
Perhaps the best way of investigating the zodiac is to look at stelliums and large
concentration of planets imo.
Here's the way I see it: What doesn't change if you switch zodiacs are aspects by degree. That's why sidereal and tropical delineations can agree up to 60% in special cases, especially if your technique is extremely aspect oriented (as modern astrology is). Which means aspects by degree is what you shouldn't be focusing on while comparing different zodiacs or ayanamsas. Instead you would have to focus on placements of house lords and divisional charts because that's where the most profound changes will happen. So this is going to be rather time consuming.
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Unread 01-15-2017, 11:28 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

@sibylline, do you plan on addressing this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
What is your definition of 'season'?
Or are you avoiding it for some reason?
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Unread 01-16-2017, 12:09 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

muchacho,

The definition can likely be found in the same place you cherry-picked your definition from.

My mistake was thinking you were honestly interested in discussing this topic. Since you're not, this is my last reply to you.
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Unread 01-16-2017, 12:33 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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HoldorFold, thank you for the information and videos.

What actually caused you to rethink using sidereal with Vedic? Was it Wilhelm? I admit, I'd never heard of these people before you mentioned them.
I've been into western astrology for about 10 years so I know my chart and the charts of people I know quite well in tropical. I started getting into vedic awhile ago and so looked at my chart and the charts of people I knew.

When I switch to sidereal in my chart, my Ascendant, Mars and Mercury stay the same but the other planets change. I mainly noticed the discrepancy in my Saturn which moves from Scorpio into exalted Libra. Now many of my friends born are born around the same time and I don't feel we have exalted Saturns in Libra. Another reason in regards to Saturn is it's current transit through tropical Sagittarius, we have textbook stuff going on now like the migrant crisis and more austerity towards foreigners / border control etc. This fits Saturn transiting through Sagittarius perfectly.

I also looked at some of my friends charts including a friend with very strong Leo placements who is Leo through and through, from the way he looks to his behavior. These placements changed to Cancer in sidereal which is completely off. The same with a friend with lots of Cancer who's placements changed to Gemini which doesn't fit.

Another more subjective reason is because there's been occasions when I've actually felt the difference when a planet enters a new tropical sign.

And then I found out that Wilhelm, and some others, are using the tropical zodiac with vedic so then things started to fall into place. I've also heard in several places about many sidereal vedic astrologers who don't pay much attention to the signs and instead focus more on aspects, house placements etc. This would make sense if they have had to adapt to using a zodiac which is out of sync.
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  #44  
Unread 01-16-2017, 11:13 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

@HoldOrFold: thanks for your link! Anyone interested in Wilhelm's reasoning behind switching to tropical just listen to this 3 hour podcast:

http://www.vedic-astrology.net/FreeC...-and-Rasis.mp3

He explains in great detail his take on the different zodiacs and the reasoning behind changing methods of calculation.

He also explains his Ayanamsa choice which I find interesting, although flawed. He says the only fixed point we have is the galactic center, everything else is constantly moving. So he chooses the galactic center as his reference point and as the center of Mula ('root') Nakshatra. Which gives an Ayanamsa value that is very close to Usha-Shashi.

He also references Yukteswar a lot. However, according to Yukteswar the phenomenon of precession is due to the Sun's orbit around another star which gives us the Great Year (24,000 terrestrial years) and not due to the Sun's orbit around the galactic center which gives us the Galactic Year (up to 250 million terrestrial years).

Apart from changing calculations and Ayanamsa, I think I can mostly agree with Wilhelm. His youtube channel also has a lot of great stuff!
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  #45  
Unread 01-16-2017, 11:28 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
muchacho,

The definition can likely be found in the same place you cherry-picked your definition from.

My mistake was thinking you were honestly interested in discussing this topic. Since you're not, this is my last reply to you.
That's not fair. You see, you've questioned my honesty right from the start when you jumped into the discussion. I've been very straightforward with you thru-out the entire discussion. But you keep redirecting me to google so I have to assume that you either don't understand the topic at hand or you do understand but don't want to admit that you are wrong.

The seasonal argument can be defeated all too easily. Maybe that's what made you so upset. However, this doesn't mean that the tropical zodiac is useless or debunked. It just means that the seasons can't be the actual reason behind the 12 signs of the tropical zodiac.
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  #46  
Unread 01-17-2017, 12:33 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
@HoldOrFold: thanks for your link! Anyone interested in Wilhelm's reasoning behind switching to tropical just listen to this 3 hour podcast:

http://www.vedic-astrology.net/FreeC...-and-Rasis.mp3

He explains in great detail his take on the different zodiacs and the reasoning behind changing methods of calculation.

He also explains his Ayanamsa choice which I find interesting, although flawed. He says the only fixed point we have is the galactic center, everything else is constantly moving. So he chooses the galactic center as his reference point and as the center of Mula ('root') Nakshatra. Which gives an Ayanamsa value that is very close to Usha-Shashi.

He also references Yukteswar a lot. However, according to Yukteswar the phenomenon of precession is due to the Sun's orbit around another star which gives us the Great Year (24,000 terrestrial years) and not due to the Sun's orbit around the galactic center which gives us the Galactic Year (up to 250 million terrestrial years).

Apart from changing calculations and Ayanamsa, I think I can mostly agree with Wilhelm. His youtube channel also has a lot of great stuff!
Cheers, I'll check out that vid when I have some time.

I also found this article on his site which is quite detailed re: his take on the sidereal / tropical issue: The Mystery of the Zodiac

I've got a lot of time for Wilhelm, he's a pretty wise astrologer regardless if you agree with his use of tropical.
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Unread 01-17-2017, 02:16 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

It's not a video, it's just an audio file. You probably just need to listen to the first one and half hour. There's all you need to know.

I've been browsing thru this article you linked and the content is similar to the audio file.

I agree, Wilhelm seems to be an excellent astrologer who has given this zodiac topic a lot of thought and consideration and obviously did a lot of calculations in order to find out what 'works'. He's very much in favor of a scientific (which to him seems to mean purely mathematical) approach to astrology. He says the reason why astrologers with all kinds of different Ayanamsas still get it right the vast majority of the time is because they heavily rely on intuition. They psychically tune into their client even before they cast the chart and so certain things stick out immediately after the chart has been drawn even though it has been drawn incorrectly. Which may explain why both tropical and sidereal 'work'.

Another point he is making and what prompted him to try out tropical again is the fact that both sidereal and tropical use the same points of exaltation and rulerships etc. which means both tropical and sidereal astrology are drawing from one and the same source, one original astrology. Which must have been known by all cultures during the Golden Age (satya yuga) and has been more or less lost by all cultures during the Iron Age (kali yuga). Which means history is cyclical and not linear and so the story that astrology started in Mesopotamia and then moved on to Egypt, then Greece and then India doesn't actually make sense in that regard. I made a similar point recently.


Wilhelm agrees with Yukteswar that the larger cycle of the Great Year is responsible for the cyclical rise and fall of civilizations (due to the cyclical rise and fall of consciousness/awareness of man). According to Yukteswar we've just left the Iron Age (kali yuga - where any kind of true knowledge is lost) behind. So it's no wonder that astrology is still very much in disarray. So Wilhelm acknowledges that fate of civilizations and nations (aka mundane astrology!) is linked to the Great Year cycle, which is sidereal. And since the tropical zodiac is out of sync with that larger cycle it then follows that he would have to use the sidereal zodiac for mundane astrology again! So the more I think about it, the more confusing the practice of Wilhelm's tropical vedic astrology becomes. I've also mentioned his Ayanamsa problem and Navamsa issue.

Anyways, apart from the zodiac issue, I think Wilhelm is a great source for students of vedic astrology.
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Unread 01-17-2017, 03:02 AM
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Smile Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
That's not fair. You see, you've questioned my honesty right from the start when you jumped into the discussion. I've been very straightforward with you thru-out the entire discussion. But you keep redirecting me to google so I have to assume that you either don't understand the topic at hand or you do understand but don't want to admit that you are wrong.

The seasonal argument can be defeated all too easily. Maybe that's what made you so upset. However, this doesn't mean that the tropical zodiac is useless or debunked. It just means that the seasons can't be the actual reason behind the 12 signs of the tropical zodiac.
The fruit of a tree that grows in one seasonal clime can be consumed in another. Tropical-astrology definitely has Northern Hemispheric roots with particular seasonal connotations, but that doesn't disqualify it's applications in the Southern Hemisphere. Sidereal-astrology has seasonal connotations as well, since the names and images were recorded by Ancient Babylonians at a time when there was seasonal correspondence to the helical positions of the Zodiacal constellations. Both Tropical and Sidereal Astrology were inspired by, and have connections to, seasonal conditions in Northern Hemispheric locations.

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Unread 01-17-2017, 03:23 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
That's not fair. You see, you've questioned my honesty right from the start when you jumped into the discussion. I've been very straightforward with you thru-out the entire discussion. But you keep redirecting me to google so I have to assume that you either don't understand the topic at hand or you do understand but don't want to admit that you are wrong.

The seasonal argument can be defeated all too easily. Maybe that's what made you so upset. However, this doesn't mean that the tropical zodiac is useless or debunked. It just means that the seasons can't be the actual reason behind the 12 signs of the tropical zodiac.
muchacho, when you know everything, there is no room for anything else.

You're now pretending as if you believe the tropical zodiac has any merit and you find Wilhelm so enlightening when anyone can read how you completely dismissed the tropical zodiac several times on the first page. Have you changed your views so easily? Why not discuss the issues in the sidereal zodiac, re: modalities? These tactics of yours are why I say you're being dishonest.

I said I would not reply to you but on the off-chance there is any sincerity in your comments (or for anyone truly interested), I will.

I rerouted you to Google to save time and because I thought you knew, as well as I do, that many areas around the equator experience weather changes (what you call seasons) and you were playing smart aleck.

It's not clear now that you do know that. So let's discuss it:

It's actually your argument which doesn't hold, any way you dice it. Weather is an aspect of a season, not a season itself. Let's address your comments re: weather, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
What are the 4 distinct seasons you've experienced on the equator?
Here's a bit on Kenya, where I lived. All easily found on Google.

Quote:
Kenya lies on the equator [...] Kenya's climate is divided into four distinct seasons: Hot-Dry season (mid-December to mid-March), Long-Rains (mid-March to mid-June), Cool-Dry season (mid-June to mid-October), Short-Rains (mid-October to mid-December)...
https://books.google.com/books?id=7y...page&q&f=false

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
At the equator, temperatures stay basically the same thru-out the year as do daylight hours. The only thing that may change is the amount of rain.
Response:

Quote:
Over the course of a year, the temperature [in Kenya] typically varies from 53F to 80F and is rarely below 51F or above 82F.
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Unread 01-17-2017, 03:54 PM
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sibylline sibylline is offline
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
[...]And then I found out that Wilhelm, and some others, are using the tropical zodiac with vedic so then things started to fall into place. I've also heard in several places about many sidereal vedic astrologers who don't pay much attention to the signs and instead focus more on aspects, house placements etc. This would make sense if they have had to adapt to using a zodiac which is out of sync.
I was worried initially about using tropical with Vedic because I thought Vedic may have been adapted over centuries to suit sidereal and tropical may be less effective or completely ineffective. So it's good to know there are others having success with it. Still, I want to test the two out and see the differences. An issue I'm having is with weighting all of the factors. I just got a book which contains information on the Neecha Banga Raja Yoga so I went to look up some more on it but sources vary so much in their views on it. Some very experienced astrologers afford it essentially no power in ameliorating debilities, while others think it changes the picture entirely.
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