Horary a self fulfilling prophecy?

I'm writing from the perspective of a non-horary user here. I didn't even know there was such a thing as horary astrology until I joined this forum about 8 months ago. That said, I've been wondering this for some time: does horary just create a self fulfilling prophecy if a question is asked about an undetermined future outcome, such as, "Will I get this job?" or "Will this relationship last?"

If its something like, "Where's my wallet?" or "Where's my lost cat?" I can see the point, because that's kind of like using a magical seeing device to find out something that's definitely true and can't be changed. But what about when you've just applied for a job and you haven't even had an interview yet? Then if you ask if you'll get the job and the answer is no, you'll act like it's a lost cause, maybe decline an interview if it's offered, or blow the interview if you do get one, because you're convinced that you won't get the job no matter what you do. Or if the answer is yes, then you rest on your laurels and take it for granted that you'll get that job--which could lead to all sorts of other problems. Or if it's yes, you'll get it but you won't like it... and I saw that kind of answer to that kind of question recently... then you go into the job expecting not to like it, which will affect the outcome right there.

Same with a relationship. How you act in a relationship is one of the deciding factors in how long it lasts, and if you think it's not going to last because a horary astrologer said it won't, that will probably change your behavior. Another stage being set for a self fulfilling prophecy.

So, horary readers, what do you think? How do you deal with the self-fulfilling prophecy potential? And when do you think the outcome is really decided? Is the question decided the moment it's asked? Or is it changeable after the asking? Does asking and receiving an answer create the outcome right there?

I think we have a choice. But the universe knows what it'll be

There is that possibility. Horary charts are used in lieu of a birth chart and are the transits hitting your birth chart. So if you get a yes for the job, then those transiting planets are hitting important aspects in your natal chart. It's a snapshot in time that zeros in and tells a more detailed story. It will reflect the mood of the moment (primarily the Moon) as well as describing not only the nature of the question but the person asking the question (the 'querent'). It's by checking these details with the client you have confidence the chart is 'rooted' and not a guessing game.

Moondance

Horary isn't used in lieu of birth charts, or as a transit map. How would you look at my birthchart and answer questions like:

Is the used car I want to buy an okay deal, or is there something wrong with it?

Where is my lost ring?

A lot of people aren't comfortable with the dictum 'as above, so below'. They tend to see it as 'as above, so is suggested below'.

It's a belief thing. I've seen predictive horaries say things that I do not believe could be turned into self-fulfilling prophecies, they were way too specific, and we just aren't that powerful.

But that's my world view. If you believe that we control everything, then you pretty much have to believe it's self-fulfilling prophecy. Or, you can simply remain a non-horary user. Nothing wrong with that if that's where you're comfortable.

I don't see things like 'you aren't going to get the job because the boss is going to give it to his niece' as a self-fulfilling prophecy. I wouldn't even see 'you won't get the job, full stop' as a self-fulfilling prophecy. A lot of people don't have jobs these days. Or money. Times are horrible economically. Not their fault. I also don't believe that all jobs are enjoyable unless an astrologers tells you yours won't be.

But if you feel that you are too suggestible, or that horary cannot tell the future at all - don't use it. That's the simplest answer.

Nobody needs astrology to live their life, after all.

Osamenor said:

I'm writing from the perspective of a non-horary user here. I didn't even know there was such a thing as horary astrology until I joined this forum about 8 months ago. That said, I've been wondering this for some time: does horary just create a self fulfilling prophecy if a question is asked about an undetermined future outcome, such as, "Will I get this job?" or "Will this relationship last?"

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No.

Osamenor said:

Same with a relationship. How you act in a relationship is one of the deciding factors in how long it lasts, and if you think it's not going to last because a horary astrologer said it won't, that will probably change your behavior. Another stage being set for a self fulfilling prophecy.

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You're exposed to many who abuse horary astrology here.

It was never intended for people to live their life by horary. Horary is for serious questions of a nature that clarifies and assists.

What the abusers often seek here is validation. You can see that in questions such as "Should I leave my boyfriend?"

When abusers aren't seeking validation, they are casting chart after chart out of sheer desperation.

When you learn to read horary charts, you will see that many of these people are not good people at all, and have ulterior motives of differing bizarre natures.

Consider there are two in a relationship, not one. Many of these people are controlling and manipulative. They get something out of the relationship, but the other person doesn't get anything out of it all, except to be subjected to hell.

Osamenor said:

So, horary readers, what do you think? How do you deal with the self-fulfilling prophecy potential? And when do you think the outcome is really decided? Is the question decided the moment it's asked? Or is it changeable after the asking? Does asking and receiving an answer create the outcome right there?

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Horary will never over-ride your natal chart or any subset of charts like profections, directions or solar revolutions.

The die was cast the day you were born. Not everyone gets a happy life full of love and riches and fame and material things.

What astrology will show is the turning points in your life, not every casual encounter with every person you will ever meet; it shows those jobs that have the most profound affect on you, not every casual job you will ever have; those ups and downs that have the greatest impact on your life rather than every bad hair day, and so on.

These turning points show up in solar revolutions and profections and directions.

Cspencer has a point. What you see on this board is generally a poor representative of horary, and much of it isn't horary at all.

If you have an interest in the subject, you might want to read Sahl, Bonatti, even Lilly.

Oddity said:

Horary isn't used in lieu of birth charts, or as a transit map. How would you look at my birthchart and answer questions like:

Is the used car I want to buy an okay deal, or is there something wrong with it?

Where is my lost ring?

A lot of people aren't comfortable with the dictum 'as above, so below'. They tend to see it as 'as above, so is suggested below'.

It's a belief thing. I've seen predictive horaries say things that I do not believe could be turned into self-fulfilling prophecies, they were way too specific, and we just aren't that powerful.

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I'm not saying everything could become a self fulfilling prophecy. Where is my lost ring or is this used car salesman offering me a shady deal are the kinds of questions where your beliefs are not going to change the answer. In fact, if horary can show if a used car salesman is being shady, that's useful information!

I use tarot cards that way, in fact, if I need to make a decision and can't know every factor in it through logical means. I once decided not to take an apartment when I was looking for one because of what the spread showed, and later found out the landlord was a real crook, overcharging and not making repairs.

Oddity said:

But that's my world view. If you believe that we control everything, then you pretty much have to believe it's self-fulfilling prophecy. Or, you can simply remain a non-horary user. Nothing wrong with that if that's where you're comfortable.

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I don't believe we control everything. I do believe that there are many kinds of situations in which our beliefs affect the outcome. Those are the kinds of situations I'm asking about, because I see people ask those kinds of questions again and again on this board, and I wonder what it really does for them to know the answer--or if they might be creating the answer just by asking the question.

Oddity said:

I don't see things like 'you aren't going to get the job because the boss is going to give it to his niece' as a self-fulfilling prophecy. I wouldn't even see 'you won't get the job, full stop' as a self-fulfilling prophecy. A lot of people don't have jobs these days. Or money. Times are horrible economically. Not their fault. I also don't believe that all jobs are enjoyable unless an astrologers tells you yours won't be.

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I'm not saying all those "Will I get the job?" questions necessarily create self fulfilling prophecies, either. If they've already chosen another candidate by the time you ask the question, or they've already decided you just plain won't do, then of course you won't get the job, no matter what you do or say or believe. But there are many other possibilities in that situation, and those other possibilities can be affected by what you believe.

Neither would I say all jobs are enjoyable unless an astrologer says otherwise--I've never had an astrologer tell me my job won't be enjoyable, and I haven't always enjoyed my jobs! But because no astrologer told me my job wouldn't be enjoyable, the power of suggestion wasn't a factor. If I had been told I wouldn't like my job before I started, and I believed that the person who told me that knew what they were talking about, that right there would have predisposed me not to like the job. I might not have liked it anyway, sure, but going into it without that predisposition left the possibility of a better outcome open.

Most 'will I get the job' charts you see here aren't real horaries. There are times when that's a legit question, but if there is only idle curiosity, it's not really horary.

E.g. - you have applied for the job, done your interview, and are only waiting until tomorrow afternoon or Tuesday or whenever to hear. You cannot possibly affect the outcome, and the answer to your question can easily be known - soon.

That isn't horary. It's idle curiosity.

Same with all the 'does he like me? we texted once, or he smiled at me at the office' kinds of horaries.

It's not supposed to be used for that. Also, if you cast the chart, you are the de facto astrologer, as the question is cast for the time the astrologer understands it. So if you're using this as a free reading service - that doesn't work either. I'm going to see it at a different time to Tsmall, Rafaella, Dirius, Cspencer, whoever is answering it. Which of us is the astrologer?

Given your beliefs, again, I suggest reading some actual books on the subject, or not using it at all.

cspencer said:

You're exposed to many who abuse horary astrology here.

It was never intended for people to live their life by horary. Horary is for serious questions of a nature that clarifies and assists.

What the abusers often seek here is validation. You can see that in questions such as "Should I leave my boyfriend?"

When abusers aren't seeking validation, they are casting chart after chart out of sheer desperation.

When you learn to read horary charts, you will see that many of these people are not good people at all, and have ulterior motives of differing bizarre natures.

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Yes, I've certainly noticed that some people on here seem to be trying to live their lives by horary. I think that's what's bothering me so much: so many of the questions I see on here don't seem like they should be horary questions. They seem more like a request for therapy by a person who doesn't think they should have to do the self work therapy requires.

cspencer said:

Consider there are two in a relationship, not one. Many of these people are controlling and manipulative. They get something out of the relationship, but the other person doesn't get anything out of it all, except to be subjected to hell.

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Or else they're being controlled and manipulated, and they're so wrapped up in the relationship that they feel they'll have nothing if their partner leaves them.

Maybe I'm answering my own question here about the "Will this relationship last?" question. To ask that question in the first place, you would have to feel insecure about the relationship, or sense that it's not going to last. If that's the case, it's already precarious at best.

cspencer said:

Horary will never over-ride your natal chart or any subset of charts like profections, directions or solar revolutions.

The die was cast the day you were born. Not everyone gets a happy life full of love and riches and fame and material things.

What astrology will show is the turning points in your life, not every casual encounter with every person you will ever meet; it shows those jobs that have the most profound affect on you, not every casual job you will ever have; those ups and downs that have the greatest impact on your life rather than every bad hair day, and so on.

These turning points show up in solar revolutions and profections and directions.

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And yet horary answers the smaller questions? Is that correct? Shows the casual jobs, the shady used car salesman, things like that?

Speaking of the die being cast, that brings up another question I've had about horary. Obviously, the answer to the question is based on when you ask it. But doesn't choosing the moment to ask the question change the answer? What if you wonder about it for days before casting a horary chart?

And if you do that and you know astrological transits very well, couldn't you game the system by picking the moment to cast the chart based on when you expect the favorable transits to be happening?

Let's say, for instance, that I need a car because of my employment.

Let's say I make 30k per year.

Let's say the most decent deal I can get on the used car is $10k.

How casual is that?

Was it casual when you didn't take that flat because of the reading that showed the bad landlord? Is moving house or finding a flat a casual thing? It may be where you live. It's not where I live.

What if I inherited the ring from my father, who got it from my grandfather, etc? I could get pretty wound up about that.

I see a horary as a thing in itself. That's why a chart can be cast for it. It won't over-ride your birth chart, no, but it's not really about your birth chart, either. It's a different use of astrology.

Osamenor said:

And if you do that and you know astrological transits very well, couldn't you game the system by picking the moment to cast the chart based on when you expect the favorable transits to be happening?

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I almost have to laugh, but it could be an idiosyncrasy of mine. I do keep track of planetary hours, but unless I'm working on a horary or something else that requires a current chart, I don't scrutinise transits. I can't even tell you now what sign the sun is currently in unless I go look in an ephemeris.

Can you try to game the system? Sure.

Does it work?

Not that I've ever seen, and I don't think a professional would do that.

Oddity said:

Most 'will I get the job' charts you see here aren't real horaries. There are times when that's a legit question, but if there is only idle curiosity, it's not really horary.

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So when would "Will I get the job?" be a legit horary question?

Oddity said:

Given your beliefs, again, I suggest reading some actual books on the subject, or not using it at all.

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I probably will read some books about it sooner or later, because I am curious. I'm not making it a high priority, though. There's so much else to learn, and I'm mostly interested in the deeper and more complex questions that natal astrology can work with. And I have no intention of using horary unless I someday decide it's valid--which is what I'm questioning right now. Not that I think all of you who do horary must be barking up the wrong tree, just that I haven't seen it as something I'd want to use--and that's probably because of all the horary abuse I've seen on here. Frankly, my first reaction to this forum was to write it off as bunk--until I noticed that the people doing horary readings were people I'd come to respect.

Oddity said:

Let's say, for instance, that I need a car because of my employment.

Let's say I make 30k per year.

Let's say the most decent deal I can get on the used car is $10k.

How casual is that?

Was it casual when you didn't take that flat because of the reading that showed the bad landlord? Is moving house or finding a flat a casual thing? It may be where you live. It's not where I live.

What if I inherited the ring from my father, who got it from my grandfather, etc? I could get pretty wound up about that.

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I didn't say those were casual things. I was responding to what cspencer said: that natal astrology shows the big details but not the small ones such as casual jobs. In the grand scheme of astrology, which car you buy or which home you move into might be a small thing (or not... what if the car you buy has a mechanical problem that gets you into an accident and you lose your legs? What if you meet your future spouse in the apartment building you move into? That's how my parents met, btw.) And finding your missing heirloom ring would naturally be important to you, but does the grand scheme of your future hang on it?

Oddity said:

I almost have to laugh, but it could be an idiosyncrasy of mine. I do keep track of planetary hours, but unless I'm working on a horary or something else that requires a current chart, I don't scrutinise transits. I can't even tell you now what sign the sun is currently in unless I go look in an ephemeris.

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Gemini. The date alone should tell you that, shouldn't it?

Osamenor said:

So when would "Will I get the job?" be a legit horary question?

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There is one firm left in town where I can practise my profession - the other two don't want me for whatever reason. I don't have enough money to set up shop on my own. I could, possibly, take a job at a petrol station, but that wouldn't pay the bills and support my family.

So will I get the job, or am I going to have to look in a different city?

For one. There are certainly others.

If someone comes to you with something like that, especially if they're not just waiting on the answer, there is quite a bit you can work with. And it's pretty significant.

Again, the problem with so many of the 'will I get the job?' questions here is that the person's been to the interview, and will hear next week. They just don't want to wait until next week. Since the information they want is easily available, and since there is no course of action open to them to alter that decision, there really isn't any point in doing a horary for it.

Osamenor said:

Gemini. The date alone should tell you that, shouldn't it?

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Only if I bother to look - and most of the time I really don't. Or even at my own chart (once a year, usually).

There have been a few times when I **** well should have done a horary for myself and haven't, and yes, I have kicked myself for that - but I really don't do much astrology for myself.

Oddity said:

Horary isn't used in lieu of birth charts,

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Back in the time of Lilly, births were rarely recorded. Without a birth chart your only other choice was/is horary. Studying Lilly's horary charts you get a glimpse into how much detail he uncovers about people. You'd think he had their natal chart.

I know that. Even today most people who want readings have a concern that doesn't require a birth chart, though.

Horary isn't used in lieu, though it can be useful for people whose birth dates or times are unknown. But mostly it's used to answer a specific question, not for a life reading.

Oh, fun, another "Defend your astrology to me" thread.

I'm going to assume honest intentions that you didn't realize how rudely it could be taken that you chose the Horary Technique sub-fourm to ask horary astrologers to prove that their methods or practice are valid

Osamenor said:

I'm writing from the perspective of a non-horary user here. I didn't even know there was such a thing as horary astrology until I joined this forum about 8 months ago.

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Right, and if I remember you said when you joined that you had only been studying for about 6 months using Steven Forrest's The Inner Sky as your main source? I'm not being sarcastic, rather when you choose for teachers those who don't acknowledge that astrology existed before the 20th century it isn't surprising that you would not have been exposed to horary...or to profections, or Time Lords, or Almutens, or reception...

Osamenor said:

That said, I've been wondering this for some time: does horary just create a self fulfilling prophecy if a question is asked about an undetermined future outcome, such as, "Will I get this job?" or "Will this relationship last?"

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It does not. Horary is all about prediction. Then again, all of astrology is about prediction, whether you are casting an interrogation, selecting a time for an event, reading a natal chart (with or without transits) or solar return, or looking at an Aries ingress chart. The whole point is to figure out what is going to happen. Even the modern, evolutionary "everything is based on your free will" astrologers are actually making predictions. They predict that this aspect means ease or difficulty in this area of your life, or your node (or whatever) in this sign and house means your karmic destiny is to learn "x" in this lifetime. Do those "predictions" become self-fullfilling prophecies? Because I for one would love to be lazy and indecisive...there's a prophecy I'd love to self-fulfill...

Osamenor said:

If its something like, "Where's my wallet?" or "Where's my lost cat?" I can see the point, because that's kind of like using a magical seeing device to find out something that's definitely true and can't be changed. But what about when you've just applied for a job and you haven't even had an interview yet? Then if you ask if you'll get the job and the answer is no, you'll act like it's a lost cause, maybe decline an interview if it's offered, or blow the interview if you do get one, because you're convinced that you won't get the job no matter what you do. Or if the answer is yes, then you rest on your laurels and take it for granted that you'll get that job--which could lead to all sorts of other problems. Or if it's yes, you'll get it but you won't like it... and I saw that kind of answer to that kind of question recently... then you go into the job expecting not to like it, which will affect the outcome right there.

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Is that what this is all about? Because I told a querent that she would get a job, but that she would end up hating it? Have you never wanted something, only to get it and realize that it wasn't what you thought it was going to be? What's really funny is that the only reason I replied to that thread at all is because another member here is trying very hard to learn and had also replied. Not for the OP. Because you are correct in your observation that most people posting charts with questions have no idea what they are doing, or how to read the chart; casting chart after chart for the same question while refusing to learn, and using the forum as a Free Astrologer's R Us site.

Osamenor said:

Same with a relationship. How you act in a relationship is one of the deciding factors in how long it lasts, and if you think it's not going to last because a horary astrologer said it won't, that will probably change your behavior. Another stage being set for a self fulfilling prophecy.

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What if your sister, or daughter, became romantically involved with, and married an abuser? Do you suppose there is anything she could do to change the way she acts to make the relationship work? To not get hit, or killed? "If I just shut my mouth, tried harder, maybe he wouldn't do it?" That's the problem with people who think that the entire world can be made better for themselves, or controlled by their actions alone. They forget about all the other people out there, being who they are and exercising their own "free will."

Osamenor said:

So, horary readers, what do you think? How do you deal with the self-fulfilling prophecy potential? And when do you think the outcome is really decided? Is the question decided the moment it's asked? Or is it changeable after the asking? Does asking and receiving an answer create the outcome right there?

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The point of horary astrology is to avoid situations or circumstances that could potentially harm us, or to find a way around obsticales that are blocking us. To "change the future" if you will. If I knew that you were on a certain flight, and I knew that the plane was going to crash, wouldn't you want me to tell you? And if you didn't get on the plane, and it crashed, would you challenge that somehow I made the crash manifest in reality for casting the chart, or would you just be damned happy you didn't get on the plane?

Osamenor said:

I use tarot cards that way, in fact, if I need to make a decision and can't know every factor in it through logical means. I once decided not to take an apartment when I was looking for one because of what the spread showed, and later found out the landlord was a real crook, overcharging and not making repairs.

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So you are saying that you are comfortable with turning to Tarot, but not to an astrologer who likely could have told you from the get-go that the landlord was a crook?

Osamenor said:

And I have no intention of using horary unless I someday decide it's valid

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Just to be clear, you are challenging/questioning members who practice a specific branch of astrology, in their sub-forum, to justify themselves to you so YOU can decide that it is valid?

Another pretext is those who say...if some trouble which is supposed to happen to someone is seen ahead of time from afar, it will send fear and sorrow into him before the time of pain, up until when the evil happens to him; and nevertheless, afterwards, it is necessary for him to be made sad and to be pained and to lament; nor can the astrologer avert that trouble which is going to come according to the stars; and even if he were to avert it, he at least could not avert the anger and distress (which he to whom the evil will come and be made plain, will suffer) up to the hour of its coming....to whom it can be responded in the familiar way..."The best astrologer is able to avert many evils which are going to come according to the stars"

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Bonatti, On Basic Astrology, Treatise 1, Defense of Astrology

Osamenor said:

Yes, I've certainly noticed that some people on here seem to be trying to live their lives by horary. I think that's what's bothering me so much: so many of the questions I see on here don't seem like they should be horary questions.

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It's okay to be bothered.

You don't have to read the chart if it bothers you. Normally, those threads should be deleted by moderators, but I guess that's not how it works.

Sometimes, charts have unique things in them that make them valuable for others to learn.

Osamenor said:

They seem more like a request for therapy by a person who doesn't think they should have to do the self work therapy requires.

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Okay.

Osamenor said:

Or else they're being controlled and manipulated, and they're so wrapped up in the relationship that they feel they'll have nothing if their partner leaves them.

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Okay, but I can't remember if I've seen that yet.

Osamenor said:

Maybe I'm answering my own question here about the "Will this relationship last?" question. To ask that question in the first place, you would have to feel insecure about the relationship, or sense that it's not going to last. If that's the case, it's already precarious at best.

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Yes, those people are seeking validation.

Osamenor said:

And yet horary answers the smaller questions? Is that correct? Shows the casual jobs, the shady used car salesman, things like that?

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There is nothing wrong with asking if an item you want to buy is defective in some way, especially a used item that costs a lot of money.

When you buy a tract of land, you can't see what it looks like the entire year through every change of the seasons. Horary can help with that, showing you if part of the land is a stinking quagmire mosquito breeding ground for most of the summer or not.

Osamenor said:

Speaking of the die being cast, that brings up another question I've had about horary. Obviously, the answer to the question is based on when you ask it. But doesn't choosing the moment to ask the question change the answer?

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Yes, and the answer you get is the answer you deserve.

So, if you keep asking questions about silly things or the same subject until you get the answer you want, and then you get injured or suffer financial loss or whatever, you have gotten your just reward.

Osamenor said:

What if you wonder about it for days before casting a horary chart?

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That is exactly what you should be doing.

The issue before you should be something that has been on your mind for several days and is of crucial importance.

That is slightly subjective, so we must view it from the position of the most rational or logical person.

Osamenor said:

And if you do that and you know astrological transits very well, couldn't you game the system by picking the moment to cast the chart based on when you expect the favorable transits to be happening?

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No. The Stars move fast, but not fast enough to game the system.

And by waiting for the Stars to be aligned just so, you might even hurt your own position.

Understand we do exactly that. It's called Elections.

When should you undertake to do something, anything?

When the Stars are most favorable.

I just went through that with some friends. We undertook to do something, but we wanted the best case scenario astrologically. The real best case scenario is about 18 months from now, but we didn't want to wait that long. So we took the best Election we could, which isn't perfect, but we'll learn to live with it.