Question about the outer planets

Fomalhaut is pen-name of Abbé Nicollaud
he writes on p. 317 of the first edition of his Manuel d’Astrologie Sphérique et Judiciaire (1897)
granting Uranus to Capricorn, Saturn to Aquarius, Neptune to Pisces, Jupiter to Sagittarius
the asteroids to Libra, Venus to Taurus, Mercury to Virgo
and the hypothetical planet Vulcan
said to orbit between Mercury and the Sun to Gemini
before affirming that the planet beyond Neptune exists and is called Pluto:

He continues to argue out of step with later astrologers
that Pluto is a benefic analogue to Mars:

Finally, he argues that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were all known by the ancient Chaldeans
but that as a result of human eyesight having weakened
they had since become invisible.
And from this he reasons that the ancient Chaldeans ascribed only one sign
to rulership by any one planet – with Pluto as ruler of Aries
This is one of the earliest examples of an attempt

to reduce all planets to one domicile each
in this case using the hypothetical Vulcan, the asteroids
and the then-yet-to-be-discovered-for-33-years Pluto to make up the numbers.

the following article contains the first published assessments
on the sign rulership of Pluto, 1897-1931
https://www.astrolearn.com/astrology-articles/astrologers-on-pluto-1897-1931/

– Written and compiled by Philip M. Graves 22 March 2016

JUPITERASC said:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
determining personality traits is most definitely traditional astrology
QUOTE
Main Rulerships of 1st House
Life, vitality and health. Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.

Older sources note its influence upon the intellect
the way the mind works
and speech
In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality

and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler
indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.

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True. I should have clarified back there. Determining personality traits may be done in traditional astrology, but it's not done according to sun sign--at least, not in the sense of "Tauruses are stubborn, Geminis are flighty, Leos are outgoing, Libras are indecisive", etc. So, if someone posts a "What are Tauruses like?" topic, that's not traditional astrology.

IMO, that sun sign personality stuff is terrible modern astrology. Good modern astrology looks at the whole chart and allows for the fact that people aren't just their sun signs, and doesn't reduce the complexities of each sign to a buzzword or a few. But terrible modern astrology is still modern astrology, not traditional.

However, this is getting off topic. This thread wasn't started to discuss what's modern and what's traditional astrology, but how the outer planets were named. Going forward, everyone please stick to that topic.

I note that the outer planets can be less than personal, when put in personal places however, they can consume and rule a chart and a person. My Neptune is in the first house, although not near the A.C., it is the only other non luminary in the first house. I can say too that is it unaspected ,no minor, major, or Parralels to any planets. I don't quiet know how to measure the strength of an unaspected planet, but I can say that Neptune in the first and reading an unaspected planet as strong, are more accurate of descriptions than anything I can find in my Sun sign alone.

Osamenor said:

This thread wasn't started to discuss what's modern and what's traditional astrology, but how the outer planets were named. Going forward, everyone please stick to that topic.

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Actually,I didn't care about how they were named - I wanted to know where the keywords asscoiated with them come from. If the keywords weren't stripped from Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, then where did they come from.

As for modern vs. traditional - am I the only one who thinks it sure takes a lot of explaining to differentiate the 2 terms?

Kernix said:

Actually,I didn't care about how they were named - I wanted to know where the keywords asscoiated with them come from. If the keywords weren't stripped from Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, then where did they come from.

As for modern vs. traditional - am I the only one who thinks it sure takes a lot of explaining to differentiate the 2 terms?

Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying. Let's discuss all this going forward!

Kernix said:

Actually,I didn't care about how they were named - I wanted to know where the keywords asscoiated with them come from. If the keywords weren't stripped from Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, then where did they come from.

As for modern vs. traditional - am I the only one who thinks it sure takes a lot of explaining to differentiate the 2 terms?

Click to expand...

I've found that most of the terms were connected with events in history around their discovery. Uranus became associated with rebelliousness, discovery, enlightenment simply because it was discovered around the time of the French Revolution and the Age of Enlightenment. Similarly Neptune was associated with idealism, inspiration, dreams and the like because it coincided with the uprise of Romanticism. Similarly Pluto destructiveness, death, rebirth and the stuff are associated with its discovery around WW2.

Those qualities are bound to be taken from some traditional planets because traditional astrology claims to be fully coherent, complete and capable of reproducing the whole human experience only resorting to seven planets. (In traditional, rebelliousness is explained by Mars, subversion of subordinates/slaves by Saturn and trickery by Mercury, similarly inspiration and arts are related to Venus and Mercury the most, while death and destructiveness is Mars and Saturn like.)

petosiris said:

I've found that most of the terms were connected with events in history around their discovery. Uranus became associated with rebelliousness, discovery, enlightenment simply because it was discovered around the time of the French Revolution and the Age of Enlightenment. Similarly Neptune was associated with idealism, inspiration, dreams and the like because it coincided with the uprise of Romanticism. Similarly Pluto destructiveness, death, rebirth and the stuff are associated with its discovery around WW2.

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However, the zeitgeist of the time each of those planets was discovered could only be seen in hindsight, after enough time had gone by to turn it into a historical era. How long did it take astrologers to assign those qualities to those planets?

Kernix said:

Actually,I didn't care about how they were named - I wanted to know where the keywords asscoiated with them come from. If the keywords weren't stripped from Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, then where did they come from.

As for modern vs. traditional - am I the only one who thinks it sure takes a lot of explaining to differentiate the 2 terms?

Click to expand...

The history of modern astrology is not so well known, but basically 20th century astrologers interested in questions like, "What does Neptune rule?" or "How does Neptune manifest in a horoscope?" tended to look at a lot of horoscopes, looking for commonalities. I've got some of the old books by one of the grand daddies of anglophone modern astrology, Alan Leo, and he indicates qualities for Aquarius (which he saw as a malefic) and Neptune but his delineations are provisional. Because of his influence on the rest of anglophone astrology, I think a lot of his delineations stuck.

So yes, some modern planets' meanings were borrowed from the traditional planets. Neptune took over some of the thematic rulerships of the moon, like alcohol, for example.

However, the modern planets also took on rulerships of phenomena that didn't exist during traditional astrology's reign, such as electricity and aviation (Uranus,) and nuclear energy (Pluto.) Venus generically rules the arts, but I think film (cinema) relates more specifically to Neptune.

Modern astrology only, to All

All,

The Modern Astrology Forum is ONLY dedicated to Modern Astrology. if you want to discuss Traditional astrology, do it in the Traditional Astrology forum.

Back to Modern,

Tim

Kernix said:

Actually,I didn't care about how they were named - I wanted to know where the keywords asscoiated with them come from. If the keywords weren't stripped from Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, then where did they come from.

As for modern vs. traditional - am I the only one who thinks it sure takes a lot of explaining to differentiate the 2 terms?

Click to expand...

What keywords? And it's simple--Modern has 10 primary Sign-rulers, Traditional has 7. Here's an easy pattern: Originally, since the Sun and Moon move in one direction they ruled one Sign each, and the planets have both direct and retrograde motion, and ruled two Signs each, with 5 planets then ruling 10 Signs, for a total of 12. But, with the use of 8 Planets, the pattern changes: Sun, Moon, and Planets all rule 1 Sign each, except the two Inner Planets, Mercury and Venus, which appear as both Morning and Evening "stars", and therefore rule 2 Signs each, for a total of 12.
As for assigning Rulerships to the recently incorporated Planets, here's another pattern: Beginning the Seasonal-year with Sun entering Aries (a Modern practice), as each Planet beyond Saturn was brought into the fold, the more Seasonally advanced Sign of the 2 Signs ruled by the outermost Planet still ruling 2, was given to the next Planet out. Aquarius is more Seasonally advanced than Capricorn, Pisces more so than Sagittarius, and Scorpio even more so than Aries. So, the way Rulership was expanded fits this pattern.
As for Planetary characteristics, [IMO] it's ridiculous to equate slow-moving Uranian influence with that of quicksilver Mercury, slow-moving Neptune with fast-moving Venus, or slow-moving Pluto with fast-moving Mars. There's no need to mix characteristics of other Planets to jury-rig descriptions of the Outermost Planets--each has its own unique type of influence.

Kernix, what are your "keywords" for the Sun, Moon, and Merc through Saturn? Usually, Modern has keywords for the Signs, not the Planets. There are possible keyword connections for the Outermost Planets and their rulerships: Uranian influence increases cosmic-Awareness, and Aquarius has the keyword "Knowledge". Neptune is a channel to Spirituality, and the Piscean keyword is "Belief". And, Pluto relates to Life after Death, which explains what it is that Scorpio really "Desires".

To get a sense of what sort of influence the Sun, Moon, and Planets are about, look at the Elements of the Signs they rule. All 3 Fire-sign and all 3 Earth-sign rulers in Modern are included in the 7 pattern of Traditional. Modern adds 1 Air-sign ruler and 2 Water-sign rulers, and all 3 "go deep", compared to the closer, faster-moving Modern rulers of those Elements.