WANDERING STARS = Planets ~ As Understood By The Ancient Astrologers

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
This thread is a consequence of a succinct description
I noted on another thread
of a members response to the following question

Petosirus, are you using the "Outers" In your Charts?
Not sure if you're a Traditionalist
or not, since you have an independent approach to Astrology.

the response is explaining clearly
why Traditional astrologers do not use dwarf planets/asteroids et al :smile:
so for those beginners who have often wondered why
I quote:
I personally do not.

Obviously dwarf planets are planets because they are wandering stars.
To the ancients, the planets were wandering stars that appear visible and sometimes do not
because they are set under the beams.

That is, they did not make a distinction
between Regulus and Jupiter because one is a planet, and another is a sun, but rather
because of the sphere that appears to be moving Jupiter
across the zodiac of non-wandering stars, the way I understand this.

The ''outers'' are not visible to the naked eye, and are not spheres, and
they distort the symbolism of the number 7.
 

petosiris

Banned
The benefic and malefic distinction comes from the Babylonian tradition. Jupiter and Venus are brightly shining, Mars is ominously red, while Saturn is more faint and slow. Thus Jupiter and Venus are more auspicious than Saturn and Mars in their apparent nature from the perspective of the observer.

Saturn indicating elders in the Hellenistic tradition is obviously related to the planetary motion and appearance of the planet. He also makes obstacles, reversals and inaction, which are only sometimes good qualities.
Jupiter is somewhat slow too, but because of his brightness and power, indicative of rulers and tribunals, goodness and abundance, the good predominates in this star. The slowness is more indicative of good stability.
Mars is much faster than those two, and indicative of strength, but also of rash and violent nature, which are only good qualities if put in the right place, also those are in part due to his erratic orbit.
Venus is fast, bright, indicative of beauty and grace, feminine due to her setting under the beams.
The concept of the seven ages of man from Ptolemy comes from similar obvious astronomical rationales - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/4C*.html#10

Their size, colour and speed might be different in reality when you are near them, but the reality on Earth has made the ancient astrologers record their effects such and I think it is most rational to continue to use them for people on Earth.

No one can assign similar astrological properties to Neptune and Pluto because they do not send us any sign. Herschel is too faint to have a noticeable effect. When those planets were discovered, usually properties (and even domiciles) from the other planets were taken. Of course modern astrology was quite detached from its roots when it was doing that stuff.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
informational comments on the rationale for using seven classical visible planets
aka THE WANDERING STARS
quoted for newcomers to Traditional astrology
:smile:
Pluto doesn't reflect light....Pluto doesn't carry a message for us.....

You can't see pluto with the naked eye.

There are thousands of Pluto Like objects in the orbit of the sun, so....
if we are using pluto we should be using those planets too.


The problem si that we assume that because pluto is in our solar system, it should be added to our astrological calculations.
I understand that, and I respect it, but in my case I don't consider neptune/uranus either for anything at all.

Almost everything that this 3 planets "represent", can be explained
by the placement of other planets in the charts.
Or even using the fixed stars, something that
doesn't exist in modern astrology.


We assume that they represent something, because like I said, they belong to what we call "the solar system", our backyard, sort of speak
...So we think that since they are so big, they must mean something.

Astrology is born in ancient egypt/greece, by tracking the movements of the 2 luminaries
and the 5 errant stars, along with the placement of the fixed stars
and constellations:


Sun and moon + mercury/venus/mars/jupiter/saturn + stars

Neptune...uranus...unfortunatly they should mean nothing to us in astrology:unsure:

To explain further, there are a few philosophical issues that arise when using the outer planets. It's true that many more classically oriented astrologers use them, but they tend to regard them as fainter fixed stars, so their importance and abilities tend to be scaled back or ignored unless they are on an angle or conjunct some important planet.

Dirius is correct in noting that the fact the outers carry no visible light is a major detriment to their inclusion into the classical framework. Astrology evolved alongside ancient optical theories and these theories still permeate astrological discourse to this day. Planets in aspect are said to "see" or "regard" one another and their light is often considered a transmitter of their influence.

The word "planet" originally evolved from the Greek "planetes aster", or "wandering star" and referred to the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Mars, and Saturn whose motion could be detected against the backdrop of fixed stars that are stable in their relative distance from one another, but all move together as one large group. Today we have redefined what a planet is to serve our own categorical needs. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to remember that we, as astrologers, have organizational needs that are different from those of astronomy.

Another issue with the outer planets in general is that they lack much of the tools that the classical planets have. This isn't just referring to dignities (though that is a large part of it), but they also lack nature, sect, gender, years, winds, orbs, signatures, etc. This may all seem superfluous or unnecessary, but its significance really cannot be overstated. Without these associations, the outer planets are essentially blank orbs without instruction or meaning.

Finally, there is the issue with the meanings contemporary astrologers have given to them. Mostly they either 1) don't make sense within their own context or 2) are already taken by another planet.

About the first, a lot of the meanings of the planets have been assigned to them based on mythological interpretations or perceived mundane events happening around the time of their discovery. A lot of the mythological meanings are cherry picked and often nonsensical, like Uranus ruling rebellion, but in the myth Ouranos is the tyrannical dictator, not the freedom fighter. The mundane events are definitely cherry picked as there are many important events happening around the world at any given time. Pluto was discovered in 1930 and has taken on an association with nuclear force, but when I hear 1930s I think Great Depression and I've never heard anyone associate Pluto with financial ruination.

About the second, each of the outer planets have significations that are more or less plucked from the classical planets. Uranus's reported instability and recklessness can be found in Mercury and Mars. Neptune's illusions and mysticism can be found in the Moon. Pluto's transformation and general heavy-handedness are the domains of Mercury and Saturn. Not only does this create strange, cross-breed planets, but it makes the classical planets into flat characters when their meanings and significations are much more multifaceted in the tradition.
 
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