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  #1  
Unread 12-16-2014, 01:39 AM
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Darth MI Darth MI is offline
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Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

A trend I notice is that many people in the astrology community absolutely dismiss religion as a hoax and useless.............. But absolutely put 100% literal faith in astrology!

I don't mean to be rude and cause trouble but 3 years ago I seen this bashing of religion in another astrology forum and while I'm not religious the thought of putting real established institutions such as the Roman Catholic Church and Islam beneath astrology was ridiculous enough I left this particular forum.

But I notice from recent astrology groups I joined to forums all across the internet, many "true" followers of astrology (we're talking about guys who hate Sun Sign astrology because they ruined the public's perception of the subject) often tend to be atheist or agnostic and quite a few even have strong animosity towards religion. But they have no qualms about drawing up natal charts and believing them literally (or dismissing them as fake or inaccurate if the poster online doesn't match it word for word).

Because religion impacted mankind so much and continues to impact billions today while astrology has become all but a niche, I find it unbelievable people have the nerve to put it above something that is so life or death and helped changed humanity as much as the various religions.

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  #2  
Unread 12-16-2014, 02:39 AM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

Let me put it the other way:

Why don't most religious people believe in astrology?

A lot of people that are christian, dismiss astrology in an instant for not being "verifiable by science", then again a lot of them believe in some sort of religion or deity.

And again: why should one believe in a god, just because one believes in astrology?

So because one believes in something considered "supernatural", one has to believe in every supernatural story there is?

Do you believe in the chupa cabra?
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  #3  
Unread 12-16-2014, 03:40 AM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

The issue is that many religions have made themselves an enemy of astrology over the past few thousand years. The catholic church for instance is responsible for destroying countless texts on astrology and they are responsible for killing many astrologers, who they deemed witches.

They dont do this anymore, but thats because theyre not allowed to. Many religious ppl claim to be understanding but the truth is that not too long ago they would have felt perfectly justified in killing us simply because of what we are into. And the only reason they dont now is because society doesnt let them as the church doesnt run the state anymore...Thank God!!!!

So thats why astrologers are suspicious of organized religions. Though we in general are only suspicious of certain religions, for instance you dont see astrologers bashing buddhism, do you? This is because that religion has a history of non violence. The christian and muslim religions cant say the same thing.

I dont really find astrologers dismissing religion as disrepectful, its justified. Many of these "peaceful religious ppl" used to burn ppl like us at the stake and set our art back hundreds of years, I find that a lot more disrepectful than questioning an intrinsically flawed belief system.
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  #4  
Unread 12-19-2014, 11:21 PM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

It is my experience that most astrologers accept that there is a intelligent force that has created an intelligently designed universe - how else could astrology work? We simply do not like organized religions as a rule. However, most of the astrologers I know are very spiritual, and most believe Jesus Christ, Krishna and the Buddha were great teachers if not avatars. Isabel Hickey was a devout Christian and spoke of God often in her writings.The school of evolutionary astrology is predicated on the premise that we have a soul that returns to embodiment many times through reincarnation. Jeffery Wolfe Green speaks of God and how the soul has only 2 desires - to separate from God (or source energy) and a desire to return to God.
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  #5  
Unread 12-20-2014, 12:19 AM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

The top ten organised religions of the world are:
Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Judasm, Baha'ism
Confucianism, Jainism, Shintoism
there are many other religious belifes as well
and any astrologer could follow any one of these religions
or
alternatively
some astrologers are atheist
however
religious belief and/or religious non-belief would not necessarily affect astrological ability
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  #6  
Unread 12-21-2014, 03:13 AM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

OK, here are my ramblings on the subject.

Firstly you say that you have noticed a trend among astrologers to be averse to religion. I can't comment on what you have read or seen, nor your perception of it. It may be true that this was the belief of the majority of astrologers that you have come across.

In my own experience the majority of the people I know of an older generation were brought up with a religious background and religious schooling, they then experienced the 70s counter-culture and started studying astrology during that decade. They still have a healthy respect for those aspects of the religion they were brought up with which emphasise caring and compassion for their fellow human beings. Because they were brought up with religion they will never fully reject all the elements of the religion they learnt as children. Other people born in religious families or religious countries will be unlikely to discard everything they have learnt from religion even if they later read about astrology and see there is a correlation between what the astrology books say and the characters of the people they know.

I don't really know a great deal about what each of the individual religions say about astrology, except that Islam prohibits "fortune telling with divining rods" (divining rods being arrows that have been broken into pieces, or twigs, which are tossed and form shapes like runes) because only God can predict the future. This was largely to prevent gullible people being taken advantage of by unscrupulous & untrustworthy charlatans, and is interpreted as expressing the principle that all fortune telling should be avoided because of this.

I think there is a lot of truth in what the Ram says about religious leaders having oppressed astrology because it was a threat to their power structure in which the rules of their religion were absolute, and only they the priests had the skill and knowledge to pass the doctrine on. Astrology was a threat to the priesthood since the priests didn't understand it & sometimes it opposed what they were preaching. However I do know that Tibetan buddhist monks study astrology, albeit a different kind of astrology from western astrology, but I don't know anything about their system.

Also astrology, mainly vedic, is big in India, so my guess is that a lot of the astrologers who practice there are Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jain, or one of the other religions from India.

Also religions (the big 3 Abrahamic ones anyway) tend to assert things that are unprovable such as the existence of heaven and hell. If one believes this in a literal way there is no way to prove it with your own eyes, whereas in the case of astrology, after some time and practice we can see events unfolding in accordance with our understanding of the symbolism of astrology. We are largely powerless to affect the outcome of these events even with foreknowledge but we can see them and have proof that astrology works. There I think we have a big difference between astrology and religion - astrology can be proved, religion can't. Although it is different if one only believes in heaven and hell figuratively as meaning a happy, peaceful life in this lifetime if we are considerate to others and an unhappy, stressful life in this lifetime if we are mean to others, somewhat like karma.

I also agree with thelivingsky. The fact that astrology does work, and that the movement of things as large as the planets and the moon, which science has proved only came to orbit our sun, and in the case of the moon the earth, after a series of collisions, coincide with events on a micro scale in our daily lives suggests that something is behind both events. It is almost evidence for religion.

But it is true that in the past people believed that the earth was flat and everything orbited the earth. It is possible that one day astrology will be proved false and we will be proved to only be believing in this synchronicity of planets and events due to some kind of confirmation bias.

In my opinion the trouble is that each of the religions, even Islam which is said to be directly from God, is an attempt to convey the truth of how the universe functions to human beings in words that they can understand, and that has been distorted and solidified into customs and dogma since that is the easiest way for humans to remember to be kind and civil to each other and for them to remember to keep in mind that there is something bigger than themselves out there. But that is just my opinion. Some of the stories and allegories I have heard in relation to religion, whether from a book or from an oral tradition, are like a very opaque poem that we don't really understand on the first 10 or so hearings, but later we realise explained so much about life, so naturally a whole variety of different interpretations spring up, so it might not be that religion (whichever one we are talking about it) is contrary to astrology, just that some people's interpretation of it is.

My personal belief is that both religion and astrology have a place, but my religious views are largely figurative.
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  #7  
Unread 12-21-2014, 03:25 AM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

This forum helps me to understand briefly
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  #8  
Unread 12-21-2014, 10:18 AM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

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Originally Posted by Buff18 View Post

This forum helps me to understand briefly
Great
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  #9  
Unread 12-21-2014, 02:56 PM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

One does not have to associate themselves to thoughts pertaining to dogmatic organization revolving a deity or many deities to witness and observe and to report back what they perceive in the cosmos. That is a reality. (Perception)

Religion is energy. We are all vibrations of such said energy. On some level we all resonate with this truth whether our minds agree to what that is called or what it imaginably looks like. Thus the birth of conjecture creates adversity because it all hinges upon ideas rather than experience~

Astrologers may seemingly resonate with experience more so than belief.
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  #10  
Unread 12-21-2014, 09:36 PM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

The astrologer who has trained and taught me is a Catholic, a strong believer and a man of faith. In fact he taught me astrology while citing references from Catholic faith and Islam. I love his interpretation and 'synthesis' of what planets say. As his idols, he admired and studied Alan Leo and French astrology and later on William Lilly. He has got knowledge of Numerology and tarot also. It was extremely an enriching experience when he taught me through amalgam of all without leaving citations from religions. Not limited to this, we talk about Native Americans and their rituals also. And he says that "astrology without religion is nothing. A man of faith practices astrology better.". I believe he is true. In a way, religion and astrology both empower each other.

On a personal note, i say if someone can reject all religions at a time and choose to become an atheist, similarly people can follow astrology and religion together also. I believe Buddhism is a philosophy (though every religion is but Buddhism more). It's like wisdom and follower of any religion or astrology can accept Buddhist wisdom too, no contradictions.

Someone above has rightly pointed out that Christianity and Islam have rejected astrology and have at many levels condemned it altogether. I believe that in Christianity, Catholic faith, Islam and Judaism, people call upon same God. And if we say that all knowledge is from God, astrology being a knowledge is from God also. In all divine books, God has asked His believers to seek knowledge, He does not say 'don't seek this knowledge and leave the other'. Knowledge is light and God is light too. We cannot deny light of knowledge while accepting light of God.

Sometimes, i think how God transcended knowledge? If there is no God, how system of universe is so organized? How astrology is working? If only scientific laws are behind them, who created this science? And if there is no God; Why in astrology do we have 'Sun', the giver of life and a symbol of individual? Then, i believe that there is a source of light (like Sun) and that source of light is giving us this knowledge, of astrology and every other knowledge.

So, this way, i conclude this too that astrology and religion can go together.

BUT when i work as a scientist in my lab, my belief in science grows even stronger and i understand why scientologists regard science so sacred? Science is sacred. Science is light and there must be a source of light too (again). Science is convinced too that there must be a source of light.
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  #11  
Unread 12-21-2014, 09:59 PM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by junoisuppose View Post
OK, here are my ramblings on the subject.

Firstly you say that you have noticed a trend among astrologers to be averse to religion. I can't comment on what you have read or seen, nor your perception of it. It may be true that this was the belief of the majority of astrologers that you have come across.

In my own experience the majority of the people I know of an older generation were brought up with a religious background and religious schooling, they then experienced the 70s counter-culture and started studying astrology during that decade. They still have a healthy respect for those aspects of the religion they were brought up with which emphasise caring and compassion for their fellow human beings. Because they were brought up with religion they will never fully reject all the elements of the religion they learnt as children. Other people born in religious families or religious countries will be unlikely to discard everything they have learnt from religion even if they later read about astrology and see there is a correlation between what the astrology books say and the characters of the people they know.

I don't really know a great deal about what each of the individual religions say about astrology, except that Islam prohibits "fortune telling with divining rods" (divining rods being arrows that have been broken into pieces, or twigs, which are tossed and form shapes like runes) because only God can predict the future. This was largely to prevent gullible people being taken advantage of by unscrupulous & untrustworthy charlatans, and is interpreted as expressing the principle that all fortune telling should be avoided because of this.

I think there is a lot of truth in what the Ram says about religious leaders having oppressed astrology because it was a threat to their power structure in which the rules of their religion were absolute, and only they the priests had the skill and knowledge to pass the doctrine on. Astrology was a threat to the priesthood since the priests didn't understand it & sometimes it opposed what they were preaching. However I do know that Tibetan buddhist monks study astrology, albeit a different kind of astrology from western astrology, but I don't know anything about their system.

Also astrology, mainly vedic, is big in India, so my guess is that a lot of the astrologers who practice there are Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jain, or one of the other religions from India.

Also religions (the big 3 Abrahamic ones anyway) tend to assert things that are unprovable such as the existence of heaven and hell. If one believes this in a literal way there is no way to prove it with your own eyes, whereas in the case of astrology, after some time and practice we can see events unfolding in accordance with our understanding of the symbolism of astrology. We are largely powerless to affect the outcome of these events even with foreknowledge but we can see them and have proof that astrology works. There I think we have a big difference between astrology and religion - astrology can be proved, religion can't. Although it is different if one only believes in heaven and hell figuratively as meaning a happy, peaceful life in this lifetime if we are considerate to others and an unhappy, stressful life in this lifetime if we are mean to others, somewhat like karma.

I also agree with thelivingsky. The fact that astrology does work, and that the movement of things as large as the planets and the moon, which science has proved only came to orbit our sun, and in the case of the moon the earth, after a series of collisions, coincide with events on a micro scale in our daily lives suggests that something is behind both events. It is almost evidence for religion.

But it is true that in the past people believed that the earth was flat and everything orbited the earth. It is possible that one day astrology will be proved false and we will be proved to only be believing in this synchronicity of planets and events due to some kind of confirmation bias.

In my opinion the trouble is that each of the religions, even Islam which is said to be directly from God, is an attempt to convey the truth of how the universe functions to human beings in words that they can understand, and that has been distorted and solidified into customs and dogma since that is the easiest way for humans to remember to be kind and civil to each other and for them to remember to keep in mind that there is something bigger than themselves out there. But that is just my opinion. Some of the stories and allegories I have heard in relation to religion, whether from a book or from an oral tradition, are like a very opaque poem that we don't really understand on the first 10 or so hearings, but later we realise explained so much about life, so naturally a whole variety of different interpretations spring up, so it might not be that religion (whichever one we are talking about it) is contrary to astrology, just that some people's interpretation of it is.

My personal belief is that both religion and astrology have a place, but my religious views are largely figurative.

Junoisuppose, I loved reading your ramblings. I want to particularly expand or discuss a few things that you said.

I totally agree with the examples of older astrologers growing up in religious families, the buddist monks and the Indian astrologers.

Islam, as you said that prohibits fortune telling with divining rods. When i came to know about this, i searched on the subject and i found that Islam has not prohibited from seeking knowledge of stars and planets or astrology. It just prohibited from fortune telling. Like i was talking earlier in my post that sometimes i wonder how knowledge was transcended, I believe it was through Prophets and each Prophet was master of one knowledge or other or more than one knowledge.

Spirituality is a very special kind and i believe that when we read charts and find some indicators of spirituality or firmness in beliefs; this is a testimony that astrology and religions have links together.

The examples you gave about heaven and hell and powerlessness are very beautiful. I have experienced it many times that i see Uranus or Pluto going to play havoc in my life, i see them coming and still i am unable to stop them. In moments of forgetfulness, i do what Uranus or Pluto were supposed to do and it happens. Then, comes the Saturn, a test of faith. The more firm you are in faith, the more bearable and comforting is Saturn. Faith is Saturn and faith teaches you to be patient, to learn and accept. This is what the teacher Saturn does.

About heaven and hell; we have MC, the highest point and we call it 'heavens' when sometimes interpreting the charts. And why do we always point high when we have to point towards God or heaven? I am sure if i am clearly expressing what i want to say..

I loved what you said about religions and astrology. Very good observations. I will definitely search for answers about heaven and hell- i think tarot has that though.
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  #12  
Unread 12-22-2014, 07:58 AM
Harvestlion Harvestlion is offline
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

The Christian teaching was offered up by a master astrologer Jesus who spoke of many things related to astrology in his teachings.<br />
<br />
A few examples are that of the Age of Aquarius and the Plutonic Hell<br />
<br />
Jesus said to meet up in the house of the man bearing a pitcher of water. This is a code for when Jesus would return at the Age of Aquarius which has the symbol of a man pouring out a pitcher of water.
Outter Darkness of Hell <br />
He also talked about people being bound by their hands and feet and thrown into outter darkness. Many Astrologers know that the further away planet in our solar system is Pluto which is described as a Hell which reseeds and transforms all it touches.<br />
<br />
Jesus being born of a Virgin is also a code for himself being a Virgo child.

Last edited by Harvestlion; 12-22-2014 at 08:06 AM.
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  #13  
Unread 12-29-2014, 12:36 AM
ZadkielsGhost ZadkielsGhost is offline
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

Darth MI

Quote:
A trend I notice is that many people in the astrology community absolutely dismiss religion as a hoax and useless.............. But absolutely put 100% literal faith in astrology!
Everyone has a Ninth house, some nativities have various afflictions to their 9H lord, and of the Superior planets, the Malefics do Not necessarily give great religious adherence although with respect to aspects and the planet's dignity as shown in Ptolemy's table planets will experience contradictions due to these factors.

Astrology according to Lilly who was studied diligently by the Modern Zadkiel as noted in his publication in 1877. Lilly places astrology as a 9H pursuit.

Prior to 1700, the 9th or Jupiter was seen as astrology's place. There is a contradiction today as many including myself see Uranus as astrology's ruling planet yet credit the 9th as astrology's house.

So astrology is a religion just as religious documents of various 9th house faiths are seen as accepted or heresies, the various authors we study in the past are similar as either the gospel of the stars or sometimes we may find certain authority's works blasphemous or heresy as various religions often conflict.

Darth MI

Quote:

I don't mean to be rude and cause trouble but 3 years ago I seen this bashing of religion in another astrology forum and while I'm not religious the thought of putting real established institutions such as the Roman Catholic Church and Islam beneath astrology was ridiculous enough I left this particular forum.

(SNIP)...................

Because religion impacted mankind so much and continues to impact billions today while astrology has become all but a niche, I find it unbelievable people have the nerve to put it above something that is so life or death and helped changed humanity as much as the various religions.
One might wish to reflect upon all of the great data we have borrowed from Islam astrologers such as the 360 circle, and all of the parts. Many Islamic astrologers have diligently studied Mohammed's writings, and according to one particular doctorate in philosophy some Moslem nation require the memorization of their religious documents, so in that 9th house faith we can't say those astrologers were not religious.

After the creation of the Holy Roman Empire where the RC Church placed Charlemagne as the Emperor the colleges and universities within Europe were owned by the Church. To get a 9th house education(university) you had to attend the RC Church's institutions. Many well educated astrologers were graduates of such schools for the Clergy were the educated and teachers for the most part.

Many scribes and translators of the Bible have been astrologers, and haven't any of you noticed all of the positive scriptures that fervently endorse astrology in the 66 canonized books by the Council of Nicaea in Asia Minor in 325 A.D.?

http://www.signe-astrology.com/artic...the-bible.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/astrology-Bible.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazzaroth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_astrology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_astrology

I actually believe the Darth MI baited the forum on this one as there is so much evidence of astrology in the major 9th house religious cultures of the world as noted in their various documents!


ZadkielsGhost

Last edited by ZadkielsGhost; 12-29-2014 at 12:38 AM.
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  #14  
Unread 12-29-2014, 12:41 AM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

You either believe in astrology or god and that's it.
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Unread 12-29-2014, 08:14 PM
ZadkielsGhost ZadkielsGhost is offline
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

Matrix 1

Quote:
You either believe in astrology or god and that's it.


Matrix 1, are you assuming Lilly, Bonatus, and William Ramesey, were only kissing up to the crowd and authorities of the times As the Roman Catholic Church had so much sway, that they were trying to avoid predicaments like Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler went through similarly with helecentricism vs. geoleocentricism?

For Lilly wrote this:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/letter.html

To the Student in Astrology.


My Friend, whoever thou art, that with so much ease shalt receive the benefit of my hard studies, and doest intend to proceed in this heavenly knowledge of the stars; wherein the great and admirable works of the invisible and al-glorious God are so manifestly apparent. In the first place, consider and admire thy Creator, and be thankful unto him, be thou humble, and let no natural knowledge, how profound or transcendant soever it be, elate thy mind to neglect that Divine Providence, by whose al-seeing order and appointment, all things heavenly and earthly have their constant motion: the more thy knowledge is enlarged, the more do thou magnify the power and wisdom of Almighty God, and strive to preserve thyself in his favour; for the more holy thou art, and more neer to God, the purer judgment thou shalt give. Beware of pride and self-conceit: and remember how that long ago, no irrational creature durst offend Man the Microcosm, but did faithfully serve and obey him; so long as he was Mr. of his own reason and passions, or until he subjected his Will to the unreasonable part. But, alas! when iniquity abounded, and man gave the reins to his own affection, and deserted reason, then every beast, creature, and outward harmful thing, became rebellious to his command. Stand fast oh, man ! to thy God: then consider thy own nobleness; how all created things, both present and to come, were for thy sake created; nay, for thy sake God became man: thou art that creature, who, being conversant with Christ, livest and reignest above the heavens, and sits above all power and authority. How many pre-eminences, privileges, advantages, hath God bestowed on thee? thou rangest above the heavens by contemplation, conceivest the motion and magnitude of the stars: thou talkest with angels, yea, with God himself: thou hast all creatures within thy dominion, and keepest the devils in subjection. Do not, then, for shame deface thy nature, or make thyself unworthy of such gifts, or deprive thyself of that great power, glory, and blessedness God hath allotted thee, by casting from thee his favour for possession of a few imperfect pleasures. Having considered thy God, and what thy self art, during thy being Gods servant; now receive instruction how in thy practice I would have thee carry thy self: As thou daily conversest with the heavens, so instruct and form thy mind according to the image of Divinity: learn all the ornaments of virtue, be sufficiently instructed therein: be humane, curteous, familiar to all, easie of access, afflict not the miserable with terror of harsh judgment; in such cases, let them know their hard fate by degrees; direct them to call on God to divert his judgments impending over them: be modest, conversant with the learned, civil, sober man, covet not an estate; give freely to the poor, both money and judgment: let no worldly wealth procure an erroneous judgment from you, or such that may dishonour the Art, or this divine Science: Love good men, cherish those honest men that cordially Study this Art: Be sparing in delivering Judgment against the Common-wealth thou livest in. Give not judgment of the death of your Prince; yet I know experimentally, that Reges subjacent legibus Stellarum [Kings are subject to the rule of the stars] : marry a wife of thy own, rejoyce in the number of thy friends, avoid law and controversie: in your study be totus in illis [all you can be] that you may be singulus in arte, be not extravagant or desirous to learn every Science, be not aliquid in omnibus [knowing little of everything]; be faithfull, tenacious, betray no ones secrets, no, no I charge you never divulge either friend or enemies trust committed to thy faith.. Instruct all men to live well: be a good example thy self; avoid the fashion of the times, love thy own native country; exprobrate no man, no not an enemy: be not dismaid, if ill spoken of, Conscientia mille testes [conscience has a thousand witnesses]; God suffers no sin unpunished, no lye unrevenged.

WILLIAM LILLY

And evidently unless Bonatus was only kissing up to the RC Church he may have had strong Christian values as noted in this worthy document:

THE CONSIDERATIONS OF GUIDO BONATUS


7. The 7th Consideration, is to beware of those cases wherein the Astrologer is subject to err and mistake; of which the learned have named four: 1st When the Querent is so silly that he knows not how to ask, nor what he would have. 2nd When the time for which the figure is erected is mistaken. 3rd When the Artist knows not whether the Sun be gone off the line of the Mid-Heaven, or still upon it: or be behind or before it. 4th When the Fortunes and Infortunes shall be of equal strength; at which time thou therefore oughtest not to receive any question. But, in my opinion, there mat well be added yet three ways more, wherein the Astrologer will subject to err: When the Querent comes only to try him, or put a trick upon him, as many do, saying, ‘Let us go to such an Astrologer, and ask him such a thing, and see if he can tell us the truth or not.’Just as the Jews propounded questions to our Lord Jesus Christ, not so much to be resolved, as to tempt and ensnare Him. 2nd Wherein the Artist will be liable to err, is when the Querent does not ask out of a serious or settled intention, as some do when they meet an Astrologer by chance or go to him on other business: on a sudden they think of something, and so ask, as it were by-the-bye; wherein ‘tis a thousand to one but mistakes happen. But thou mayest be ready to say, ‘How shall I know whether the Querent come out of a solid intention, or only to try me?’ To which I answer, that it seems a very abstruse and difficult point, perfectly to find out; but this I have often experienced and found true, viz., I observed the hour of the Question, andif the Ascendant then happened very near the end of one sign and beginning of another, so that it seemed as between both; I said they did not ask seriously, or that they came to try me; and I have had many that have there upon confessed what I said to be true, and began to think that I knew more than before they believed. For in such cases I used to say, ‘Pray, friend, do not trouble me unless you ask seriously, for I suspect that you would put a trick upon me, by not proposing this Question as you ought: however, if you will give me trouble for your pleasure, be pleased to give me likewise satisfaction for my pains’; and immediately, if there were and deceit intended, away they went. Another, viz., a way whereby an Astrologer may err, is when the Lord of the Ascendent and the Lord of the Hour are not the same, nor of thesame Triplicity, or be not of the same complexion with the Ascendant; for then theQuestion is not Radical, as I have frequently found by experience. And this I have recited, that thou may’st know for what persons thou shouldst undertake to give judgment; for as one says, “The issue of the thing is according to the solicitude of the Querent, and as he comes in necessity, as sad, thoughtful, and hoping, that thou art able and knowest how to satisfy him the truth of the matter; and in such cases thou may’st securely venture upon the question.”

Red and underling added by me for emphasis and easy access.

And though I have not the time today, but if allowed I will show that William Ramesey, in his document, Astrologia Restaurata: Astrology Restored, the first third of this document is filled with his defense of astrology from pro-Biblical Scriptures.

Now if the zealous Aqu Sun WAYBREAD wanted to truly stand on it, she has the capability being a Bible believer to provide many pro Biblical scriptures on astrology if she has the sand to go out on a limb which we all know she is quite able when she feels the cause is worthy!

And the below website can supply one with the ammunition to ferret out the truth of where astrology is condoned within scripture!

www.biblegateway.com

ZadkielsGhost





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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

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Originally Posted by Darth MI View Post
A trend I notice is that many people in the astrology community absolutely dismiss religion as a hoax and useless.............. But absolutely put 100% literal faith in astrology!

I don't mean to be rude and cause trouble but 3 years ago I seen this bashing of religion in another astrology forum and while I'm not religious the thought of putting real established institutions such as the Roman Catholic Church and Islam beneath astrology was ridiculous enough I left this particular forum.

But I notice from recent astrology groups I joined to forums all across the internet, many "true" followers of astrology (we're talking about guys who hate Sun Sign astrology because they ruined the public's perception of the subject) often tend to be atheist or agnostic and quite a few even have strong animosity towards religion. But they have no qualms about drawing up natal charts and believing them literally (or dismissing them as fake or inaccurate if the poster online doesn't match it word for word).

Because religion impacted mankind so much and continues to impact billions today while astrology has become all but a niche, I find it unbelievable people have the nerve to put it above something that is so life or death and helped changed humanity as much as the various religions.
Your post seems to confuse importance to society with importance/relevance to individuals.

My own view of religion in light of my past and my flexibility with it ... (raised fundamentalist Southern Baptist, left the church, put religion aside; attended at Unity church in 1997; became a Unitarian Universalist for 5 years 2002-07) ... is that it is a social device that can be very useful for individuals seeking community and who can tolerate or believe in the dogma.

With astrology, we learn about ourselves as individuals, if you can see the birth chart as an 'ownder's manual' of sorts. Religion cannot help individuals in such a fashion, but applies rules to everyone and can only emphasize morality. There are exceptions to this, but in my observation the individual's questions, doubts, etc, were nearly always answered with stock dogmatic answers.

Religion is undoubtedly structured for control and consolidation of power when you look at the structure of the Catholic church. This became the model for religions generally and for the corporate world. It places one person at the top of the pyramid and puts layers of lesser authorities between it and the common people.

The astrological reason that the people you describe accept astrology, but not religion is Uranus. Regardless of individual birth charts, the Uranian drive, so strong amongst astrologers, wants to relate directly to the cosmos without intermediaries. It wants knowledge revealed directly, not through someone else. Uranus is impersonal and tends to reject personal theologies as caricatures and not believable.

It is at least a tacit recognition of energy as the underlying force in life, not human personalities with all their barbs and foibles. Uranus does not like to be controlled and when that drive is strong in a person you can expect that they will not join or desire membership in such organizations or if they do, they will tend towards extremism of pushing their choice onto others.

The Uranian energy is a difficult one to grapple with until one can work with energy directly and apply it in life as needed. This is probably pretty much synonymous with achieving mastery. Masters don't need religion, but don't need to reject it for others either. They tend to separate from or stand out from mainstream religious authorities. Not equating astrologers with spiritual masters.
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

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Originally Posted by ZadkielsGhost View Post

I actually believe the Darth MI baited the forum on this one as there is so much evidence of astrology in the major 9th house religious cultures of the world as noted in their various documents!


ZadkielsGhost
Exactly Any profession could have been chosen for this question

for example

Not all doctors believe in religion
but some do

Clearly,
Belief is a personal choice
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

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Originally Posted by ZadkielsGhost View Post
Matrix 1



Matrix 1, are you assuming Lilly, Bonatus, and William Ramesey, were only kissing up to the crowd and authorities of the times As the Roman Catholic Church had so much sway, that they were trying to avoid predicaments like Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler went through similarly with helecentricism vs. geoleocentricism?

For Lilly wrote this:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/letter.html

To the Student in Astrology.


My Friend, whoever thou art, that with so much ease shalt receive the benefit of my hard studies, and doest intend to proceed in this heavenly knowledge of the stars; wherein the great and admirable works of the invisible and al-glorious God are so manifestly apparent. In the first place, consider and admire thy Creator, and be thankful unto him, be thou humble, and let no natural knowledge, how profound or transcendant soever it be, elate thy mind to neglect that Divine Providence, by whose al-seeing order and appointment, all things heavenly and earthly have their constant motion: the more thy knowledge is enlarged, the more do thou magnify the power and wisdom of Almighty God, and strive to preserve thyself in his favour; for the more holy thou art, and more neer to God, the purer judgment thou shalt give. Beware of pride and self-conceit: and remember how that long ago, no irrational creature durst offend Man the Microcosm, but did faithfully serve and obey him; so long as he was Mr. of his own reason and passions, or until he subjected his Will to the unreasonable part. But, alas! when iniquity abounded, and man gave the reins to his own affection, and deserted reason, then every beast, creature, and outward harmful thing, became rebellious to his command. Stand fast oh, man ! to thy God: then consider thy own nobleness; how all created things, both present and to come, were for thy sake created; nay, for thy sake God became man: thou art that creature, who, being conversant with Christ, livest and reignest above the heavens, and sits above all power and authority. How many pre-eminences, privileges, advantages, hath God bestowed on thee? thou rangest above the heavens by contemplation, conceivest the motion and magnitude of the stars: thou talkest with angels, yea, with God himself: thou hast all creatures within thy dominion, and keepest the devils in subjection. Do not, then, for shame deface thy nature, or make thyself unworthy of such gifts, or deprive thyself of that great power, glory, and blessedness God hath allotted thee, by casting from thee his favour for possession of a few imperfect pleasures. Having considered thy God, and what thy self art, during thy being Gods servant; now receive instruction how in thy practice I would have thee carry thy self: As thou daily conversest with the heavens, so instruct and form thy mind according to the image of Divinity: learn all the ornaments of virtue, be sufficiently instructed therein: be humane, curteous, familiar to all, easie of access, afflict not the miserable with terror of harsh judgment; in such cases, let them know their hard fate by degrees; direct them to call on God to divert his judgments impending over them: be modest, conversant with the learned, civil, sober man, covet not an estate; give freely to the poor, both money and judgment: let no worldly wealth procure an erroneous judgment from you, or such that may dishonour the Art, or this divine Science: Love good men, cherish those honest men that cordially Study this Art: Be sparing in delivering Judgment against the Common-wealth thou livest in. Give not judgment of the death of your Prince; yet I know experimentally, that Reges subjacent legibus Stellarum [Kings are subject to the rule of the stars] : marry a wife of thy own, rejoyce in the number of thy friends, avoid law and controversie: in your study be totus in illis [all you can be] that you may be singulus in arte, be not extravagant or desirous to learn every Science, be not aliquid in omnibus [knowing little of everything]; be faithfull, tenacious, betray no ones secrets, no, no I charge you never divulge either friend or enemies trust committed to thy faith.. Instruct all men to live well: be a good example thy self; avoid the fashion of the times, love thy own native country; exprobrate no man, no not an enemy: be not dismaid, if ill spoken of, Conscientia mille testes [conscience has a thousand witnesses]; God suffers no sin unpunished, no lye unrevenged.

WILLIAM LILLY

And evidently unless Bonatus was only kissing up to the RC Church he may have had strong Christian values as noted in this worthy document:

THE CONSIDERATIONS OF GUIDO BONATUS


7. The 7th Consideration, is to beware of those cases wherein the Astrologer is subject to err and mistake; of which the learned have named four: 1st When the Querent is so silly that he knows not how to ask, nor what he would have. 2nd When the time for which the figure is erected is mistaken. 3rd When the Artist knows not whether the Sun be gone off the line of the Mid-Heaven, or still upon it: or be behind or before it. 4th When the Fortunes and Infortunes shall be of equal strength; at which time thou therefore oughtest not to receive any question. But, in my opinion, there mat well be added yet three ways more, wherein the Astrologer will subject to err: When the Querent comes only to try him, or put a trick upon him, as many do, saying, ‘Let us go to such an Astrologer, and ask him such a thing, and see if he can tell us the truth or not.’Just as the Jews propounded questions to our Lord Jesus Christ, not so much to be resolved, as to tempt and ensnare Him. 2nd Wherein the Artist will be liable to err, is when the Querent does not ask out of a serious or settled intention, as some do when they meet an Astrologer by chance or go to him on other business: on a sudden they think of something, and so ask, as it were by-the-bye; wherein ‘tis a thousand to one but mistakes happen. But thou mayest be ready to say, ‘How shall I know whether the Querent come out of a solid intention, or only to try me?’ To which I answer, that it seems a very abstruse and difficult point, perfectly to find out; but this I have often experienced and found true, viz., I observed the hour of the Question, andif the Ascendant then happened very near the end of one sign and beginning of another, so that it seemed as between both; I said they did not ask seriously, or that they came to try me; and I have had many that have there upon confessed what I said to be true, and began to think that I knew more than before they believed. For in such cases I used to say, ‘Pray, friend, do not trouble me unless you ask seriously, for I suspect that you would put a trick upon me, by not proposing this Question as you ought: however, if you will give me trouble for your pleasure, be pleased to give me likewise satisfaction for my pains’; and immediately, if there were and deceit intended, away they went. Another, viz., a way whereby an Astrologer may err, is when the Lord of the Ascendent and the Lord of the Hour are not the same, nor of thesame Triplicity, or be not of the same complexion with the Ascendant; for then theQuestion is not Radical, as I have frequently found by experience. And this I have recited, that thou may’st know for what persons thou shouldst undertake to give judgment; for as one says, “The issue of the thing is according to the solicitude of the Querent, and as he comes in necessity, as sad, thoughtful, and hoping, that thou art able and knowest how to satisfy him the truth of the matter; and in such cases thou may’st securely venture upon the question.”

Red and underling added by me for emphasis and easy access.

And though I have not the time today, but if allowed I will show that William Ramesey, in his document, Astrologia Restaurata: Astrology Restored, the first third of this document is filled with his defense of astrology from pro-Biblical Scriptures.

Now if the zealous Aqu Sun WAYBREAD wanted to truly stand on it, she has the capability being a Bible believer to provide many pro Biblical scriptures on astrology if she has the sand to go out on a limb which we all know she is quite able when she feels the cause is worthy!

And the below website can supply one with the ammunition to ferret out the truth of where astrology is condoned within scripture!

www.biblegateway.com

ZadkielsGhost




ZadkielsGhost? Are you sure not ClintonSoulesGhost?
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Unread 12-30-2014, 02:49 AM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

Hey Tsmall

want me to run a horary on this?
if Zadkiel'sGhost is ClintonSoule?

wink wink
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

Silly Rabbit - religious texts are encoded with Astrology and Astroarchealogy. What do you think the Golden Calf was about? It was about regressing from the Age of Aries back to the Age of Taurus. Have you seen this little book? http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/agjc/
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Unread 12-30-2014, 10:03 PM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

William Lilly was one of the most profound horary astrologers of the West. And as I have already stated from Bonatti's document either Bonatus was a Christian or was he just faking it, to appease the RC Church?

In which case would he actually be a credible worthy astrologer to follow if he were a fraud by proclaiming Christ as his Lord if only to appease the RC Church?

David PLant says in the beginning of the second paragraph of his document that I list the website upon that this Horary mentor of many sought to attend the university to become a clergy, thus a Christian priest. This Does Not sound like certain astrologers of renown were anti-religious or anti-Christian by their own words from the study of many artists since.


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly.html

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15835...-h/15835-h.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/aia/aia03.htm

Mel Gibson did a movie called Apocalyto, in one scene the Mayan Sun priests witnessed an eclipse something contrary to Gibson's portrayal of Mayan culture as the astrologers who were priests were involved in ripping out the victims hearts as idolatry sacrifice to the pagan sun god. The Mayans contrary to the film knew of the celestial phenomena unlike Gibson's portrayal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ULxjgF58dM

The U.S. Department of Interior records the Aztec astrological prediction of the return of the bearded white man who the Mormon Church called Quetzalcoatatl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

And No I'm Not LDS, Mormon, only stating the facts that pagan astrologers worshiped the sun and predicticted what some archaeologists believe to be the return of Christ in 1517 A.D.


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...1n_Cort%C3%A9s

http://www.rptimes.com/rosarie-saler...-quetzalcoatl/

http://www.bmaf.org/articles/hernando_cortez__williams

So there may be all sorts of religious astrologers recorded down through the ages!


ZadkielsGhost

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Unread 12-30-2014, 10:30 PM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

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The astrological reason that the people you describe accept astrology, but not religion is Uranus. Regardless of individual birth charts, the Uranian drive, so strong amongst astrologers, wants to relate directly to the cosmos without intermediaries. It wants knowledge revealed directly, not through someone else. Uranus is impersonal and tends to reject personal theologies as caricatures and not believable.

It is at least a tacit recognition of energy as the underlying force in life, not human personalities with all their barbs and foibles. Uranus does not like to be controlled and when that drive is strong in a person you can expect that they will not join or desire membership in such organizations or if they do, they will tend towards extremism of pushing their choice onto others.

The Uranian energy is a difficult one to grapple with until one can work with energy directly and apply it in life as needed. This is probably pretty much synonymous with achieving mastery. Masters don't need religion, but don't need to reject it for others either. They tend to separate from or stand out from mainstream religious authorities. Not equating astrologers with spiritual masters.
Interesting. I thought that tendency to not want to get wrapped up in religious dogma (or else promote it heavily) was reflective of a highlighted Sagittarius... is it perhaps both? Something I've been musing on lately, my own tendency to go with alternative religion and reject dogma of both mainstream and alternative religions... and I have both of those things in my chart. Moon in Sagittarius, in the twelfth house, so emphasizing the spiritual angle of that sign placement, and Uranus conjunct MC.

Back to the original topic of this thread: the divorce between astrology and religion is cultural. It's only seen in the Abrahamic faiths, and only in cultures where religious affiliation is treated as an immutable part of one's identity. In eastern Asia, that particular concept of religion doesn't exist, at least not as a native concept.

The idea that if you are a Christian you cannot also be a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, etc., is a thoroughly Western view. In contrast, the Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, and other East Asians are perfectly comfortable with mixing and matching religious beliefs and practices. In those countries, a cross on the wall and Christian prayers can easily share space with an ancestral altar and Buddhist meditation practices and offerings to the local deities. To be fair, it's not unheard of for Westerners to do such things, but for Westerners to mix and match religion is a Uranian thing to do. If you're Chinese or Korean and you do that, it's not unique, it's just what everyone does.

In China, astrology shares the same mental space as traditional religion. Same in India. In those countries, perhaps the astrologers aren't necessarily that Uranian, just mainstream. My guess, anyway. In any case, a Hindu or Buddhist or Taoist astrologer isn't in any conflict with their religion.

In the West, the monotheistic religions gained their following by overthrowing the previous religions, and they either co-opted all the old beliefs and practices or attempted to eradicate them. Astrology is one of those ancient beliefs and practices that could never be fully co-opted by the church, but they never managed to eradicate it, either, so the relationship between the two is very uneasy.
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Unread 01-02-2015, 10:07 PM
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

Sanaqua

Quote:
The astrologer who has trained and taught me is a Catholic, a strong believer and a man of faith. In fact he taught me astrology while citing references from Catholic faith and Islam. I love his interpretation and 'synthesis' of what planets say. As his idols, he admired and studied Alan Leo and French astrology and later on William Lilly. He has got knowledge of Numerology and tarot also. It was extremely an enriching experience when he taught me through amalgam of all without leaving citations from religions. Not limited to this, we talk about Native Americans and their rituals also. And he says that "astrology without religion is nothing. A man of faith practices astrology better.". I believe he is true. In a way, religion and astrology both empower each other.


Bold added by me for emphasis in the above quote!


Alan Leo,in his How to Judge Nativity references the Bible often. Did he do this to appease the public or the ruling class and was he truly a believer in the Bible? If he wrote such words as only a camouflage tactic, a ploy to sooth the public, then his ethics go down the drain as another charlatan. But then with a name like Leo of the lion, and numerology in names is so important, and all of his worthy deeds in astrology I count this iconic Modern as a monumental giant in astrology that did believe as he stated, he was not fraudulent from everything I have read.

Sanaqua, thank you with utmost sincerity for sharing your insights about religious zeal among both Leo and Lilly. And I have already shown that Lilly having at one time wished to attend the university in order to become a member of the clergy was in fact a Christian, and by his letter as I have cited there is no way he could be a charlatan nor an atheist for his life proved otherwise by his noble deeds and the legacy he left for us in horary.

Sanaqua, you spoke of astrology among Native Americans, well this is empirical evidence in the below document of astrology used to verify the 8 phases of the Moon about 1200 A.D. at Chaco Canyon, a village of Anasazi, the north of Gallup, New Mexico. And I have seen the evidence while visiting this historic site, put it on your places to see!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n1LKL0tjkP...alignments.jpg

http://osharresearch.blogspot.com/20...-of-chaco.html

At present I can Not find the documentation but did not Olivia Barclay utilize Biblical scriptures within her texts often or on various web documents?

This website may be quite helpful in understanding a few astrologers understand the Bible in pro Astrology form whereas many Christians Do Not comprehend the significance of many Biblical scriptures.

http://www.astrologyzine.com/astrology-bible.shtml


ZadkielsGhost

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When people say God has a plan for everyone, or for those who believe everything happens for a reason, it makes sense that Astrology is the reason. Religion is a personal journey to help make sense out of life.

Astrology is so deep, that it makes it possible for everyone to be different, have different lives, and experience separate events. Genius. Maybe some divine force put the planets out there for this reason. Astrology is so beautiful.

My 2 cents
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Re: Why do many astrologers don't believe in religion?

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Originally Posted by Kite View Post
Silly Rabbit - religious texts are encoded with Astrology and Astroarchealogy. What do you think the Golden Calf was about? It was about regressing from the Age of Aries back to the Age of Taurus. Have you seen this little book? http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/agjc/
Another excellent read pertaining to experience not requiring belief~

Hidden Truth in Jesus’ Parables

And the disciples came, and said unto him, “Why speakest thou unto them in parables?” He answered and said unto them, “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given....Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”

When Jesus was asked by his disciples why he taught the people in the subtle illustrations of parables, he answered, “Because it is so ordained that you who are my real disciples, living a spiritualized life and disciplining your actions according to my teachings, deserve by virtue of your inner awakening in your meditations to understand the truth of the arcane mysteries of heaven and how to attain the kingdom of God, Cosmic Consciousness hidden behind the vibratory creation of cosmic delusion. But ordinary people, unprepared in their receptivity, are not able either to comprehend or to practice the deeper wisdom-truths. From parables, they glean according to their understanding simpler truths from the wisdom I send out to them. By practical application of what they are able to receive, they make some progress toward redemption.”...

How do the receptive perceive truth, whereas the unreceptive “seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand”? The ultimate truths of heaven and the kingdom of God, the reality that lies behind sensory perception and beyond the cogitations of the rationalizing mind, can only be grasped by intuition—awakening the intuitive knowing, the pure comprehension, of the soul.

Paramahansa Yogananda "The Second Coming of Christ"

Cosmic consciousness, I would have to say pertains to a wonderful brew of Neptunian Stew. Why is the word fear synonymous with the word Religion for many? I grew up in a Southern Baptist church occasionally preaching sermons as a youth pastor and loved the attention that was gained from it, but for me, the energy of those moments were never equal to the purity of the transcendent energy of the earth and of the heavens that I gazed upon from my bedroom window at night until the sun rose. Even now, today as I drove up into the Appalachian Mtns. this eve, I was enamored by the energy of Venus as she set above the distant peaks. I reveled in her silvery splendor , thinking of nothing and listening only to her, as a child would, rocking back and forth continuously just to feel the energy of who they are. Observation comes more purely when we resonate with that one frequency that stops all thought and allows you to live right now in this one moment. I am That, as we all are. The people who make the body of a religious organization witness this as well; whether they subscribe to the absolute truth or not, and the wisest of those elders that I have met in those organizations do give credence to the cycles that continue beyond this realm of experience. Some only argue against the innocence of such experience where ego is concerned; as if they alone are destined to be the one who delivers the only explanation of pure truth. To me, I see this as ignorance that sets the stage for conflict and brings much pain to all who follow blindly.
Astrology, For me,is being right here in the moment conveying how the energy of each planet translates itself with in every cell that inhabits this earth in this universe that has been translated by spoken word from the elders of many breaths past. Can I speak on behalf of souls past and there intent? NO! I can only speak for me and what I witness, can I be a bridge as an astrologer for those who perceive the same energies but define the perception differently. Yes! We all can, no matter what name you assign to this one pure energy that flows through every cell.

AstralRabbit~

Last edited by astralrabbit; 01-05-2015 at 05:10 AM.
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