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  #26  
Unread 11-26-2019, 05:53 PM
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Smile Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi YonyGursho,

There is none.



It might help to understand the scheme.

There are 12 signs and 7 celestial bodies. Those 7 celestial bodies are further divided into the 5 planets and the 2 luminaries and paired off based on qualities.

Signs of Venus oppose signs of Mars. Why? Venus is pleasure; Mars is pain.

Right? Yes, Mars is violence and anger and so on, but that's all pain or painful or results in painfulness, right?

Mercury's signs oppose Jupiter's signs. Mercury is logic; Jupiter is philosophy.

Mercury's logic says a certain action is necessary, while Jupiter's benevolence says that certain action may not be philosophically correct.

See?

Of the two luminaries, Sun is given masculine Leo and Moon feminine Cancer and both luminaries oppose the Dark Lord Saturn who is Lord of the Planets. Light opposing Dark. Saturn's in the deep cold, while Sun is warm and toasty and certain Moon phases are warm and toasty.



You just listed the positive facets of Jupiter while totally ignoring the negative facets like pious fraud, excess, false hope, illusions, grandiosity and such.

You don't need Neptune when you have Jupiter.

Jupiter in H6, H8 or H12 is everything except "joviality, happiness, merriment, optimism, humor, fun, freedom, expansion."

Jupiter can also be hostile and have a bad temperament, which is why in a mundane chart a H8 Jupiter is an indicator of war.



Hi norbertsco,

That doesn't matter.

At least traditional astrologers didn't engage in full-scale tautology.

A little girl names a newly discovered body "Pluto" after a Disney character, but modern astrologers say, "no, she actually meant Pluto the god of war" an then try to crow-bar Pluto into something it never was.

If Neptune had been named "Angel" instead of "Neptune" it would have a whole different interpretation by modern astrologers and they probably would have assigned it to Aquarius.

That's not even impressive.



Hi david starling,

Nobody cares if Jupiter is a thunder god and that's not how rulerships were assigned.
The ancients cared. And, I have my own theory as to how rulerships were assigned which have nothing to do with the attributes of the gods. However, there is a remarkable synchronicity to the attributes, once the rulerships are in place, which affirms the rulership assignments. For example, the fast-transiting planet Mercury, as "the messenger of the gods".
In my Modernistic opinion, the ONLY reason Jupiter was given rulership of both Sagittarius and Pisces, is the limited combination of 7 Rulers and 12 Signs. Once the Outermosts are included, the rulership of Pisces moves from Jupiter to Neptune. And the synchronicity holds, regarding the attributes of the Ruler as it relates to the Sign.


Last edited by david starling; 11-26-2019 at 06:13 PM.
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  #27  
Unread 11-26-2019, 06:05 PM
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Smile Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

Here's my reason for the Sun and Moon having being given rulership of only one Sign apiece, and the planets each ruling two: The Sun and Moon move in only one direction, and the planets have both Direct and Retrograde movement. Ptolemy belatedly explained it as the Sun being "too masculine" and the Moon being "too feminine" to rule both a masculine and a feminine Sign, which I consider to be an incorrect theory.

Last edited by david starling; 11-26-2019 at 07:44 PM.
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Unread 11-26-2019, 06:59 PM
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Smile Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

Interesting that the only two astrological Planets that are completely invisible to the naked eye, are named for gods who ruled beneath the surface of the Earth. Btw, Pluto wasn't a god of war, he ruled the Underworld of departed souls.
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  #29  
Unread 11-26-2019, 09:06 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
Not at all. I should probably post a pic of the Thema Mundi so that this makes more sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi

Here's the Wikipedia link for the Thema Mundi. It's supposed to be the birth chart of the world or of God. It probably isn't
It's an impossible birth chart. I suppose in theory, everything could be at 15 degrees of its sign at once--but Venus can't be at 15 Libra if the sun is at 15 Leo. That puts them 60 degrees apart. The farthest Venus can get from the sun is 48 degrees. And Mercury can't get any more than 28 degrees from the sun. So while Mercury could be near the middle of Virgo when the sun is in the middle of Leo, if the sun is at 15 degrees Leo, Mercury can't be any farther into Virgo than 13 degrees.

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Scorpio is fertile in another sense. This is the sense of fertility I believe you were talking about, but this doesn't have anything to do with seasons. The so-called fertile signs were originally called "Aquatic" signs as they all represent animals seen as aquatic (Scorpions aren't actually aquatic, but meh). They are "fertile" in the sense that they indicate having many children as the animals that they're based on all have many, many children (Crabs, Scorpions, and Fish). This has nothing to do with season and everything to do with the image of the constellations. Scorpio indicates having many children but is pretty awful if you follow the seasonal rationale.
Yes, I did mean that kind of fertility. I've only heard of fertile/infertile signs in the context of whether or not they favor having children.
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  #30  
Unread 11-26-2019, 09:24 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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A little girl names a newly discovered body "Pluto" after a Disney character, but modern astrologers say, "no, she actually meant Pluto the god of war" an then try to crow-bar Pluto into something it never was.
Pluto is the god of the underworld, not war. And Pluto the Disney character was named after the planet, not the other way around. Pluto the dog wasn't introduced until two months after the discovery and naming of the planetoid.

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Hi david starling,

Nobody cares if Jupiter is a thunder god and that's not how rulerships were assigned.
Speak for yourself only. Some people might care. And not just the ancients.

There is a very clear thunder god connection in the naming of the days of the week. In English and other Germanic languages, Thursday is named after the Norse Thor, who clearly is a thunder god. In the Romance languages, it's "Jupiter day" (jeudi, jueves, etc.) Different pantheons, similar attributes, although Jupiter is the head god of the Roman pantheon, while Thor is not the head of the Norse one--that honor goes to Odin/Wodin.

That's different from astrological signs, of course, but for people who follow planetary days, the planets rule the days named for their gods.
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  #31  
Unread 11-27-2019, 04:59 AM
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Smile Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

What was Disney thinking?

Anyway, there's an ancient religious connection involved with a planet named P!uto and the Sign called Scorpio. The ancient Babylonians pictured the constellation of the Scorpion with ancient Egypt in mind. And, the most important god of Egypt was Osirus, transformed by the Hellenists into their god of the Underworld, Pluto.
The Romans originally had their own name for the god, "Dis Pater", but later changed it to Pluto. Pluto and Apollo are the only Greek deities I know of with the same exact name in Latin as in the Greek. Ouranos, Greek god of the Heavens, was known as "Caelus" in Latin.

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  #32  
Unread 11-27-2019, 12:30 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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What was Disney thinking?

Anyway, there's an ancient religious connection involved with a planet named P!uto and the Sign called Scorpio. The ancient Babylonians pictured the constellation of the Scorpion with ancient Egypt in mind. And, the most important god of Egypt was Osirus, transformed by the Hellenists into their god of the Underworld, Pluto.
The Romans originally had their own name for the god, "Dis Pater", but later changed it to Pluto. Pluto and Apollo are the only Greek deities I know of with the same exact name in Latin as in the Greek. Ouranos, Greek god of the Heavens, was known as "Caelus" in Latin.
anyway, Herschel noted existence of an outer planet and named it "George"
i.e.
"the Georgium Sidus" aka the Georgian Planet in honor of King George III of England.
The current name was first proposed by German astronomer Johann Elert Bode
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  #33  
Unread 11-27-2019, 05:14 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

I believe that the modern rulership is accurate, but, that forevermore as Jupiter was considered to have a rulership of Pisces, it will have the attributes that it was gifted by Jupiter.

Neptune fits, as to proof, there are those that don't believe astrology exists. Such is the burdens of proof.
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  #34  
Unread 11-27-2019, 07:20 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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What was Disney thinking?
That Mickey Mouse's dog needed a more interesting name than Rover (which is what he was called originally). So why not name him for the newly discovered planet? It was timely and perhaps futuristic.

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Anyway, there's an ancient religious connection involved with a planet named P!uto and the Sign called Scorpio. The ancient Babylonians pictured the constellation of the Scorpion with ancient Egypt in mind. And, the most important god of Egypt was Osirus, transformed by the Hellenists into their god of the Underworld, Pluto.
The Romans originally had their own name for the god, "Dis Pater", but later changed it to Pluto. Pluto and Apollo are the only Greek deities I know of with the same exact name in Latin as in the Greek. Ouranos, Greek god of the Heavens, was known as "Caelus" in Latin.
Collective unconscious at work! In all these myths, and Venetia Burney apparently tapped into them.

Which also fits Pluto. And Scorpio.

Edited to add: This discussion got me curious, so I did some searching. Venetia Burney was born on July 11, 1918, making her a solar Cancer (same sign Pluto was in when it was discovered, you might recall)--and Pluto was conjunct her Sun at its discovery!
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  #35  
Unread 11-27-2019, 07:24 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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I believe that the modern rulership is accurate, but, that forevermore as Jupiter was considered to have a rulership of Pisces, it will have the attributes that it was gifted by Jupiter.

Neptune fits, as to proof, there are those that don't believe astrology exists. Such is the burdens of proof.
And planetary rulership of signs isn't just about how the planet vibes with the sign. That's an easy way to explain the rulership concept to new students of astrology, but rulership also has to do with observable effects of transits by and to the planets on the houses that they rule.

That seems to me to be the biggest debate point when it comes to modern rulers. Does Pluto have as much an effect on the Scorpio house of a chart as Mars? Or Neptune have as much an effect on the Pisces house as Jupiter? Do their effects on those houses differ? If so, in what ways?

Even modern astrologers don't all agree on that.
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  #36  
Unread 11-27-2019, 07:44 PM
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Smile Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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And planetary rulership of signs isn't just about how the planet vibes with the sign. That's an easy way to explain the rulership concept to new students of astrology, but rulership also has to do with observable effects of transits by and to the planets on the houses that they rule.

That seems to me to be the biggest debate point when it comes to modern rulers. Does Pluto have as much an effect on the Scorpio house of a chart as Mars? Or Neptune have as much an effect on the Pisces house as Jupiter? Do their effects on those houses differ? If so, in what ways?

Even modern astrologers don't all agree on that.
"Influence" is actually a better description than "rulership". But, it isn't just about the strength of influence, it's about the quality as well.

Last edited by david starling; 11-27-2019 at 07:51 PM.
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  #37  
Unread 11-28-2019, 02:52 AM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
That Mickey Mouse's dog needed a more interesting name than Rover (which is what he was called originally). So why not name him for the newly discovered planet? It was timely and perhaps futuristic.

Collective unconscious at work! In all these myths, and Venetia Burney apparently tapped into them.

Which also fits Pluto. And Scorpio.

Edited to add: This discussion got me curious, so I did some searching. Venetia Burney was born on July 11, 1918, making her a solar Cancer (same sign Pluto was in when it was discovered, you might recall)--and Pluto was conjunct her Sun at its discovery!
Hey Osamenor Don't you just love the cosmos?! It has impeccable timing. With my Pluto ruling planet and Scorpio ascending, you are making me feel, what I normally don't. Warm and fuzzy! I also like that Pluto's name is chosen by a female. Rather unexpected, and rather Pluto.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 03:01 AM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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And planetary rulership of signs isn't just about how the planet vibes with the sign. That's an easy way to explain the rulership concept to new students of astrology, but rulership also has to do with observable effects of transits by and to the planets on the houses that they rule.

That seems to me to be the biggest debate point when it comes to modern rulers. Does Pluto have as much an effect on the Scorpio house of a chart as Mars? Or Neptune have as much an effect on the Pisces house as Jupiter? Do their effects on those houses differ? If so, in what ways?

Even modern astrologers don't all agree on that.
Wow, that's a tough one for me. I have Cancer Mars in the eighth. It gets kind of convoluted. With Pluto ruling Scorpio ascending and Mars in the eighth, with two of my liliths. Guess I will have to contemplate that one. Either way, I am pretty direct.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 03:02 AM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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"Influence" is actually a better description than "rulership". But, it isn't just about the strength of influence, it's about the quality as well.
I agree, that would be better wording.
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  #40  
Unread 12-04-2019, 06:55 AM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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"Influence" is actually a better description than "rulership". But, it isn't just about the strength of influence, it's about the quality as well.
I like the word ''predomination'' because the temperament of the place could be related to many planets like the heat of Leo is related to both Sun and Mars, but because Leo is moderately, not extremely dry, it is predominated by the Sun. Similarly, the cold of Aquarius is related to both Saturn and Moon, but because Aquarius is the coldest sign, it is predominated by Saturn and not by the Moon.

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Unread 12-04-2019, 07:07 AM
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Smile Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

Saturn brings out only the worst qualities of Aquarius. Uranian influence brings out both the good and the bad.
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Unread 12-04-2019, 12:55 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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Saturn brings out only the worst qualities of Aquarius.
Uranian influence brings out both the good and the bad.
'...Saturn predominates matters related to earth,

but also to water

because the element is most abundant in cold...'
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I like the word ''predomination'' because the temperament of the place
could be related to many planets
like the heat of Leo is related to both Sun and Mars, but
because Leo is moderately, not extremely dry, it is predominated by the Sun.
Similarly, the cold of Aquarius is related to both Saturn and Moon, but
because Aquarius is the coldest sign, it is predominated by Saturn
and not by the Moon.
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Unread 12-04-2019, 01:06 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

JA, earth and water share the quality of cold, the former has it moderately, the latter has it abundantly

Earth is dry and moderately cold
Water is cold and moderately moist

Saturn as cooling and moderately drying is related to both, as can be seen from his exaltation in Libra (earthy sign), but domiciles in Capricorn and Aquarius (watery signs).

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Unread 12-04-2019, 01:11 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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JA, earth and water share the quality of cold,

the former has it moderately, the latter has it abundantly
Earth is dry and moderately cold
Water is cold and moderately moist
Saturn as cooling and moderately drying is related to both, as can be seen
from his exaltation in Libra (earthy sign), but domiciles in Capricorn
and Aquarius (watery signs).
good points thanks
meanwhile with reference to Jupiter and Pisces

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Sagittarius and Pisces are both windy and increase moisture, in the same way
that Gemini and Virgo are both changeable and increase dryness.
In this way their temperament involve Jupiter and Mercury respectively,

although contrary to popular belief, the nature of each sign actually consists of an admixture that is similar to multiple planets - https://i.imgur.com/OJUpA8e.png
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Unread 12-04-2019, 01:38 PM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

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Of the two luminaries, Sun is given masculine Leo and Moon feminine Cancer and both luminaries oppose the Dark Lord Saturn who is Lord of the Planets. Light opposing Dark. Saturn's in the deep cold, while Sun is warm and toasty and certain Moon phases are warm and toasty.
Why is Saturn lord of the planets? Moon warm and toasty? Why is Mars exalted in deep cold, but depressed in warm and toasty sign? Well check out my explanation of the house of the Moon inspired by Ptolemy's explanations of Jupiter and Mars' exaltations and falls.

Cancer, by reason of being the most northern place receives an admixture of extreme northern winds that are cold and moist, so it is constituted the house of the Moon.
Capricorn is southern elevation of Mars, because this place receives an admixture of extreme southern that which are burning, drying and destructive, by reason of being the most southern place.
Cancer is northern depression of Mars, because this place receives an admixture of extreme northern winds which are moist and fecund.

I present the first consistent explanation of houses and exaltations, no geometrical or figurative language is being used, for that can only be a result and not a cause in astrology:
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=130894

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Unread 12-18-2019, 05:16 AM
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Re: What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

The domiciles (houses) deal with the matters of our day to day reality. The kind of reality that Saturn puts limits on. The 7 planets have to with the 7 rays of creation referenced in ancient texts. There is a cosmology behind this arrangement. You can see it in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life where the dualities of rulerships of the domiciles can easily be seen. Since we are talking about the reality under the dictate of Saturn, the outer planets deal with transcendent issues. They cannot rule the domiciles though they can find affinity with the houses and signs. They also have correspondences in the upper parts of the Tree of Life --Beyond the Sefirah called Binah which is associated with Saturn, the Elohim and means Understanding. I could get into a whole riff on Kabbalah but it's suffice to say that this is not a case of the ancients not knowing of planets beyond Saturn. We know from our cosmology of the Chaos (Uranus), the Waters (Neptune) and the Darkness (Pluto), that there has always been the transcendent and the descendant. Assigning transcendent rulers to descendant houses interferes with the traditional ecosystem.
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