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  #76  
Unread 03-16-2019, 06:20 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Progressives... you mean socialists.
communist swine would be the proper technical term.

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  #77  
Unread 03-16-2019, 06:23 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
communist swine would be the proper technical term.
So, are you satisfied with the term, "heartless fascists" for Neoliberals?
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  #78  
Unread 03-16-2019, 06:25 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
communist swine would be the proper technical term.
Ahahaahaha

You’re right that term couldn’t be more appropriate.
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  #79  
Unread 03-16-2019, 06:27 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I think Trump is a horrible, unprincipled man and a disaster for the USA.

Right now there is no true mainline conservative party in the US. The Republicans have become the party of allegiance to one strongman: Donald Trump. This is not good for democracy.

But I take your point about the Democrats. Their hearts are in the right place on many issues, but they seem to have a real talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
No they are not. Democrats care about spending taxpayer money on themselves, to benefit their own position. That is why most of them are rich by the time they retire.

The republican voter base likes Trump for 2 reasons:

a) Not a career politician
b) Actually talking about the issues that matter: the economy, security, immigration etc.

Whether Trump's solutions to the problems are good or bad, that is debatable. However he has at least make an emphasis on solving them, while other politicians (democrats and republicans alike) just keep rolling the ball, passing the problems to the next generation.
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-16-2019 at 11:05 AM.
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  #80  
Unread 03-16-2019, 06:28 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
So, are you satisfied with the term, "heartless fascists" for Neoliberals?
Facists are left-wing socialists, so the term is not appropiate for neo-liberals who advocate free market.
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  #81  
Unread 03-16-2019, 06:48 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Facists are left-wing socialists, so the term is not appropiate for neo-liberals who advocate free market.
"The Business of Government is Business". That's fascist, and it fits Neoliberalism. Communism doesn't describe progressivism because progressives aren't against private property ownership, or advocate that the Government should own and operate the means of production. We have a good thing going with Safety-net Capitalism. Why fight it?
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  #82  
Unread 03-16-2019, 06:58 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
"The Business of Government is Business". That's fascist, and it fits Neoliberalism. Communism doesn't describe progressivism because progressives aren't against private property ownership, or advocate that the Government should own and operate the means of production. We have a good thing going with Safety-net Capitalism. Why fight it?
I believe the proper quote was "The chief business of the American people is business". You are the one equating people with goverment, when they are not the same thing.

No one is against the safety net, but progressives do not advocate for such thing. A safety net means that people with no income, or with disabilities get help from the goverment. But this means the safety-net applies only for those that really need it, and its meant to cover only a small percentage of the people. What progressives are advocating is for free college and free health-care for every single citizen, and big goverment bureaucracy to run them. That is communism.
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-16-2019 at 07:00 AM.
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  #83  
Unread 03-16-2019, 08:10 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
I believe the proper quote was "The chief business of the American people is business". You are the one equating people with goverment, when they are not the same thing.

No one is against the safety net, but progressives do not advocate for such thing. A safety net means that people with no income, or with disabilities get help from the goverment. But this means the safety-net applies only for those that really need it, and its meant to cover only a small percentage of the people. What progressives are advocating is for free college and free health-care for every single citizen, and big goverment bureaucracy to run them. That is communism.
Affordable, quality health-care and a reasonably priced, quality college education that don't require losing everything you own, or going into long-term debt for those without wealthy parents: If Government Safety-net assistance is needed to accomplish that, it's better than Government setting price-controls on colleges and the medical industry. There's no "communism" involved. Not all Progressives are as unrealistic as Bernie Sanders. We do need politicians who attack wasteful government spending, government over-surveillance, and unnecessary and unjust restrictions on our freedom of choice in service to greedy corporations and tyrannical orthodox religions.
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  #84  
Unread 03-16-2019, 08:44 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
I believe the proper quote was "The chief business of the American people is business". You are the one equating people with goverment, when they are not the same thing.

No one is against the safety net, but progressives do not advocate for such thing. A safety net means that people with no income, or with disabilities get help from the goverment. But this means the safety-net applies only for those that really need it, and its meant to cover only a small percentage of the people. What progressives are advocating is for free college and free health-care for every single citizen, and big goverment bureaucracy to run them. That is communism.
"We the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." The Constitution is what both gives and limits the Government's authority, and the Constitution is "of the People, by the People, and for the People"-{Abe Lincoln}. It's not just about serving the wealthiest and the big Corporations--THAT'S right-wing fascism. You have the correct quote by President Calvin Coolidge, who led us directly into the Great Depression. His claim to fame as Governor before becoming President was firing policemen in Boston who went on strike for better wages, like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers.
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  #85  
Unread 03-16-2019, 08:49 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Affordable, quality health-care and a reasonably priced, quality college education that don't require losing everything you own, or going into long-term debt for those without wealthy parents: If Government Safety-net assistance is needed to accomplish that, it's better than Government setting price-controls on colleges and the medical industry. There's no "communism" involved. Not all Progressives are as unrealistic as Bernie Sanders. We do need politicians who attack wasteful government spending, government over-surveillance, and unnecessary and unjust restrictions on our freedom of choice in service to greedy corporations and tyrannical orthodox religions.
If you want "cheap" education then you need to let the free market do its job, by letting institutions compete with one another. Public funding of university has only made the prices go higher. The only way prices go down is by letting the free market work. There is no other way david. Prices for tuition have tripled in the past 20 years despite public funding, why do you think that is?

Why would politicians speak against wasteful spending, if the wasteful spending is done by them and for their own benefit? frankly it makes no sense to demand more control on politicians when it is the politicians getting the benefit out of it. In fact more control would only mean more spending, which translates to more theft by the political elite. Its like handing over heroin to a recovering addict and asking him not to use it. The only way to curve wasting resources, is not allocating them in the first place. That is why a minimal form of goverment is the best.
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-16-2019 at 11:06 AM.
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  #86  
Unread 03-16-2019, 08:50 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

You know, I don't fully support the constitution. It doesn't do good enough a job at protecting people's freedom.
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  #87  
Unread 03-16-2019, 08:52 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Affordable, quality health-care and a reasonably priced, quality college education that don't require losing everything you own, or going into long-term debt for those without wealthy parents: If Government Safety-net assistance is needed to accomplish that, it's better than Government setting price-controls on colleges and the medical industry. There's no "communism" involved. Not all Progressives are as unrealistic as Bernie Sanders. We do need politicians who attack wasteful government spending, government over-surveillance, and unnecessary and unjust restrictions on our freedom of choice in service to greedy corporations and tyrannical orthodox religions.
What you're advocating isn't a safety-net, it's socialism and anti-freedom.

We want free people not free stuff.

Dirius is right, the only way to provide people quality healthcare and education is through the free market. The free market works because of competition. Competition increases quality, decreases costs, and increases choices. Government does the opposite. You don't need a safety-net because the free market already suffices or does a better job.
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Last edited by AppLeo; 03-16-2019 at 08:56 AM.
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  #88  
Unread 03-16-2019, 08:54 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
"We the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." The Constitution is what both gives and limits the Government's authority, and the Constitution is "of the People, by the People, and for the People"-{Abe Lincoln}. It's not just about serving the wealthiest and the big Corporations--THAT'S right-wing fascism. You have the correct quote by President Calvin Coolidge, who led us directly into the Great Depression. His claim to fame as Governor before becoming President was firing policemen in Boston who went on strike for better wages, like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers.
You still insist that the free market leads to cronysm. It doesn't. This can only happen in socialist systems.

- In the free market, I give my money to the corporation that best satisfies my needs.

- In the socialist market, I give my money to the corporation the goverment chooses.

Cronysm and lobbying can only exist in the socialist market. Because in the free market the goverment is not involved in my transaction with the corporation, and thus there is no reason for the corporation to bribe the politician. In the socialist market, the corporation bribes politicians because it is them who can grant benefits to corporations, and allow them to succeed or fall.
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-16-2019 at 08:59 AM.
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  #89  
Unread 03-16-2019, 08:58 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
What you're advocating isn't a safety-net, it's socialism and anti-freedom.

We want free people not free stuff.

Dirius is right, the only way to provide people quality healthcare and education is through the free market. The free market works because of competition. Competition increases quality, decreases costs, and increases choices. Government does the opposite. You don't need a safety-net because the free market already suffices or does a better job.
It's NOT "socialism"!!! It's Safety-net Capitalism.
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  #90  
Unread 03-16-2019, 09:36 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
You still insist that the free market leads to cronysm. It doesn't. This can only happen in socialist systems.

- In the free market, I give my money to the corporation that best satisfies my needs.

- In the socialist market, I give my money to the corporation the goverment chooses.

Cronysm and lobbying can only exist in the socialist market. Because in the free market the goverment is not involved in my transaction with the corporation, and thus there is no reason for the corporation to bribe the politician. In the socialist market, the corporation bribes politicians because it is them who can grant benefits to corporations, and allow them to succeed or fall.
So, you have no recourse if the corporation you choose cheats you? It's just you and the corporate entity?
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  #91  
Unread 03-16-2019, 09:37 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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You know, I don't fully support the constitution. It doesn't do good enough a job at protecting people's freedom.
Fortunately, the Constitution wasn't designed by sociopaths for sociopaths.
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  #92  
Unread 03-16-2019, 09:43 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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So, you have no recourse if the corporation you choose cheats you? It's just you and the corporate entity?
If a corporation cheats its customers, people will stop buying their products, and the corporation will go bankrupt. There is an insentive not to cheat your customers in a free market, because any competitor will gain your market-share if you slip.

Goverment can't prevent a corporation from doing bad things. Its human nature to do bad stuff, and corporations are the product of the human mind. They can punish them, sure, but that doesn't fix what has been done. In fact, sometimes goverment will reward corporations for doing bad things, like Obama did by granting them 1 trillion dollars of your taxpayer money to corporate entities.
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  #93  
Unread 03-16-2019, 09:44 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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You still insist that the free market leads to cronysm. It doesn't. This can only happen in socialist systems.

- In the free market, I give my money to the corporation that best satisfies my needs.

- In the socialist market, I give my money to the corporation the goverment chooses.

Cronysm and lobbying can only exist in the socialist market. Because in the free market the goverment is not involved in my transaction with the corporation, and thus there is no reason for the corporation to bribe the politician. In the socialist market, the corporation bribes politicians because it is them who can grant benefits to corporations, and allow them to succeed or fall.
Wait....you misused the word "socialist" again. In the socialist market, the Government is the ONLY corporation. It owns or fully controls all the production and marketing facilities. So, there are no lobbyists.
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  #94  
Unread 03-16-2019, 09:56 AM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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If a corporation cheats its customers, people will stop buying their products, and the corporation will go bankrupt. There is an insentive not to cheat your customers in a free market, because any competitor will gain your market-share if you slip.

Goverment can't prevent a corporation from doing bad things. Its human nature to do bad stuff, and corporations are the product of the human mind. They can punish them, sure, but that doesn't fix what has been done. In fact, sometimes goverment will reward corporations for doing bad things, like Obama did by granting them 1 trillion dollars of your taxpayer money to corporate entities.
Amazon and Wal-Mart are doing quite well in the Safety-net system we have now. Government assistance money goes straight TO the corporations, who are then able to lower their prices because of greater volume. Food stamps, for example, go to supermarkets, who hire more workers to meet the needs of more customers. The lower income people who need assistance spend all their money on products produced by corporations, and for rent and utilities. The landlords then have more money to spend on higher-priced goods and services.

Should Obama have let the banks fail and G.M. go bankrupt? The economy showed steady improvement from 2012 onward.

Last edited by david starling; 03-16-2019 at 10:06 AM.
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  #95  
Unread 03-16-2019, 10:45 AM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Amazon and Wal-Mart are doing quite well in the Safety-net system we have now. Government assistance money goes straight TO the corporations, who are then able to lower their prices because of greater volume. Food stamps, for example, go to supermarkets, who hire more workers to meet the needs of more customers. The lower income people who need assistance spend all their money on products produced by corporations, and for rent and utilities. The landlords then have more money to spend on higher-priced goods and services.
Should Obama have let the banks fail and G.M. go bankrupt?
But that doesn't happen. The more you tax the economy, the less competition and availability there exists in the market, thus there is no insentive to reduce prices or increase wages to begin with.

Yes he should. As a start, why does private enterprise get money from the tax payer? If the banks performed bad investments, that is the banks problem. Or does goverment bail you out when you can't pay your debts? And in any case was that money well-spent to save the economy? because I remember a big recession followed, and many of the top bankers simply used that money to pay out their bonus. Essentially, the bailout went into the banker's pockets, and it didn't fix the problem.

------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

For a new business, the only way they can buy in bulk (which means buying a large amount of products which might not sell) is by getting a loan. Sure, Amazon and Walmart can buy bulk because they already have the resources. But the small upstart? it needs a loan so he can compete with Amazon and Walmart. But the problem is that with redistribution, the money that would be saved by the public, and thus invested in the form of loans to corporations through a bank, is instead redistributed to the individual on wellfare, and thus that money goes to Amazon or Walmart. So the problem with your example, is that the only corporations growing are Amazon and Walmart, not the small new corporation. Lets use an example:

A) Lets say I earn $100 a month with no taxation. My cost of living is $40. This means I have $60 every month to save (and thus invest). In this scenario I can loan $60 bucks to a small company and help them grow. And lets say I do this on an interest rate of 5% annually

B) Lets say I earn $100 a month with $33 tax. My cost of living is still $40. This means I have $27 every month to save (and thus invest). In this scenario I can loan $27 bucks to a small company to help them grow. But because I have less money to loan out, it means fewer companies will be able to get that loan. Which in turn, means the interest rate will go up, something that is good for me but not for the economy and long-term growth. So in this scenario the interest rate is 11% annually.

Conclusions:

-Loans of $60 with an interest rate of 5% - free market.

-Loans of $27 with an interest rate of 11% - socialism (or whatever you wanna call it).

On Amazon and Walmart? Not really a problem, because as you pointed out the money that is redistributed goes into their pockets anyway, and because they already are an established business with presence in the market, they can afford an expensive loan if they need to. But on the small upstart? Huge diference. They get not money at all because they do not exist, because they were never able to get a good loan to buy in bulk and thus provide good in exchange for the redistribution money. Which in turn leads to less employment, less financial stability. It leads to increased prices (no competition) and to stagnant wages (fewer companies hiring and choose to pay less). Big goverment interference destroys the long-term economic growth.
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Last edited by Dirius; 03-16-2019 at 11:03 AM.
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  #96  
Unread 03-16-2019, 12:16 PM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Thanks, guys. This is all fascinating. Sooner or later will the discussion turn back to astrology?
Just asking.
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  #97  
Unread 03-16-2019, 12:49 PM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Things will be clearer after the Saturn/Pluto/SN conjunction is over, and is farther along in Taurus.
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  #98  
Unread 03-16-2019, 01:31 PM
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Smile Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Things will be clearer after the Saturn/Pluto/SN conjunction is over, and is farther along in Taurus.
Thank you.
I'm marking my calendar....
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Unread 03-16-2019, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Facists are left-wing socialists, so the term is not appropiate for neo-liberals who advocate free market.
A facist is not a left wing socialist...far from it. Check your definitions.
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  #100  
Unread 03-16-2019, 04:44 PM
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
It's NOT "socialism"!!! It's Safety-net Capitalism.
It’s not blue; it’s azul.

It’s not big; it’s large.

Also, I’m not supporting “safety-net capitalism.” I’m supporting free market capitalism.
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Last edited by AppLeo; 03-16-2019 at 04:59 PM.
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