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  #1  
Unread 01-05-2015, 03:55 AM
Pianoasis Pianoasis is offline
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12th House is not what we're told it is

The twelfth house isn't the house of undoing and evil that we're told it is, in fact this idea was spread by corrupt holy men world wide as they were also leading people astray from the true message of Jesus. The 12th house of astrology is the house of ascension and of the highest and most commanding power within yourself and everyone. The idea that the 12th house is that which enslaves you unto yourself was an idea perpetuated by none other than Aleistar Crowley, otherwise known as 666 or The Beast. The very idea doesn't even make sense, how could your consciousness, a unified manifestation, have outer influence and dysfunctional control over itself? No, the 12th house is in fact the house of your highest and purest intentions, the intentions set unto yourself before incarnating on this plane.

Thoughts/feelings?

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Unread 01-05-2015, 05:49 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

It's funny you brought this up because I was thinking about my 12th house sun this morning.

What you say may be so, but...

I have to say I hate the 12th house. After having my first and absolute mega 12th house experience over the last few years I am so happy Saturn and other planets are in my first house now.

During Saturn in 12th house conjunct my natal sun, pluto, and Saturn plus antivertex I found myself come last in every sphere of life. People treated me lower than I thought could even be possible for the nice, compassionate and understanding woman that I was. I had to compromise anything about me. When I planned my wedding- it was all about other peoples needs, my career- my needs were not considered and I was invisible unless they wanted to tell me how awful I was just to show me whos boss and then abuse me if I decided to leave or give myself any kind of freedom. friends angry at me for daring to not pay 100% of my time paying attention to them not paying attention to me, - husband not caring to take my needs into consideration in any decision. Being attacked by crazy and jealous fokes who are happy to break the rules themselves and work behind the scenes to ruin me.

my experience of this house is that I just sit and smile and be oh so compassionate while other ppl are absolute shits and use you or abuse you if you dare to stand up for yourself. In this house, you come last (the 12th house being the last)!

Right now Saturn has moved into my first house and progressed mercury has moved there too. Im still the same person and yet things are just falling into my lap, going my way. All of a sudden friends care about what I have to say, my husband is paying a little more attention to me, and former work colleagues are starting to suck up to me. Im still the same person, Saturn only went into my first house 2 months ago and things have improved dramatically.

I really cant see being the compassionate understanding self sacrificing one as a positive quality of the 12th house. For me, it was an experience of being a doormat. Even when I was ill in hospital after childbirth, inlaws treated me as if I were dead. Yet now im stronger in the first house and theyre all wimpering scared in theyre little corners.
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Unread 01-05-2015, 06:30 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

The concept of the 12th house being the house of self-undoing, secret enemies, illness, and imprisonment has been around for a couple of thousand years. It certainly pre-dates Aleister Crowley.

The 12th house is cadent and in aversion to the ascendant. Basically, it's a blind spot for the native, a place you can neither see nor control, and one of the worst in the chart, and astrology has pretty much borne that out, unless you believe that all astrologers always have been 'corrupt holy men'.

I don't believe that. Astrology was the science of the day for 1500 years or so because it explained how the world works and it did a pretty good job of that explanation. Information was handed down and passed around - of course. Thoughtlessly - not so much. The idea that the only information that survived is from bad people is highly speculative. Do you have any training in ancient languages and training in how to read ancient and medieval texts? Have you read any of these guys?

I have, and I can't buy your theory. But I do accept that people can model astrology in different ways, and if it makes you happy to believe that no bad is reflected in the chart, more power to you. But you needn't try to discredit all the astrologers of the past to do that.

ETA: I missed it at first, but I realise you said that an astrological chart only shows one's consciousness. This is a new belief, and far from a universal one. My statements are predicated on the belief that life does go on outside of one's self, and that there is much that happens to us that is beyond our control. In any event, I meant no offence, but whatever you believe, you really don't need to trash the astrologers of the past to believe it. Crowley wasn't a bad astrologer, either. I grant he held some pretty odd beliefs about religion, but I've read far worse than him on the subject of astrology!

Last edited by Oddity; 01-05-2015 at 09:00 AM.
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Unread 01-05-2015, 03:28 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Do you have any proof or something ?
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Unread 01-06-2015, 05:26 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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Originally Posted by Pianoasis View Post
The twelfth house isn't the house of undoing and evil that we're told it is, in fact this idea was spread by corrupt holy men world wide as they were also leading people astray from the true message of Jesus. The 12th house of astrology is the house of ascension and of the highest and most commanding power within yourself and everyone. The idea that the 12th house is that which enslaves you unto yourself was an idea perpetuated by none other than Aleistar Crowley, otherwise known as 666 or The Beast. The very idea doesn't even make sense, how could your consciousness, a unified manifestation, have outer influence and dysfunctional control over itself? No, the 12th house is in fact the house of your highest and purest intentions, the intentions set unto yourself before incarnating on this plane. Thoughts/feelings?
I think you give Crowley too much credit. The 12th House has always been seen in a rather negative light.

But you are right. It doesn't make sense from the broadest perspective. If all there is, is consciousness and appearing as consciousness in consciousness, then what's the biggie? From within the largest context (i.e. consciousness is all there is) the idea of a House enslaving you is ridiculous because you are not really the separate volitional person that the chart is about. However, the whole idea of astrology having any significance is ridiculous as well. So, applying the largest context to astrology isn't really useful. Astrology makes only sense in a smaller, less expansive context. And based on what Crowley said about the 12th House, his vantage point can only have been that of a separate volitional person, i.e. a rather narrow and limited vantage point.
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Unread 01-06-2015, 05:44 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
The concept of the 12th house being the house of self-undoing, secret enemies, illness, and imprisonment has been around for a couple of thousand years. It certainly pre-dates Aleister Crowley.

The 12th house is cadent and in aversion to the ascendant. Basically, it's a blind spot for the native, a place you can neither see nor control, and one of the worst in the chart, and astrology has pretty much borne that out, unless you believe that all astrologers always have been 'corrupt holy men'.

I don't believe that. Astrology was the science of the day for 1500 years or so because it explained how the world works and it did a pretty good job of that explanation. Information was handed down and passed around - of course. Thoughtlessly - not so much. The idea that the only information that survived is from bad people is highly speculative. Do you have any training in ancient languages and training in how to read ancient and medieval texts? Have you read any of these guys?

I have, and I can't buy your theory. But I do accept that people can model astrology in different ways, and if it makes you happy to believe that no bad is reflected in the chart, more power to you. But you needn't try to discredit all the astrologers of the past to do that.

ETA: I missed it at first, but I realise you said that an astrological chart only shows one's consciousness. This is a new belief, and far from a universal one. My statements are predicated on the belief that life does go on outside of one's self, and that there is much that happens to us that is beyond our control. In any event, I meant no offence, but whatever you believe, you really don't need to trash the astrologers of the past to believe it. Crowley wasn't a bad astrologer, either. I grant he held some pretty odd beliefs about religion, but I've read far worse than him on the subject of astrology!
Right, it definitely predates Crowley.

Personally, I don't have an issue with old texts. What I find problematic, however, is when people treat them as some kind if Bible and take them all too literally. Excessive literalism can lead to rather strange interpretations.
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Unread 01-06-2015, 11:39 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Are there potentials for good with the 12th? Yes... But in general the person has to be advanced to take advantage.

For 90% of ppl however its an evil ****ing house.
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Unread 01-06-2015, 03:42 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Evil is in action and choices not astrological houses.
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Unread 01-06-2015, 03:48 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Turning concepts into the boogie man.... sigh this is our self undoing and binding our minds
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Unread 01-06-2015, 04:46 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Houses don't really have anything to do with signs...
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Unread 01-07-2015, 03:03 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ram View Post
Are there potentials for good with the 12th? Yes... But in general the person has to be advanced to take advantage.

For 90% of ppl however its an evil ****ing house.
Bahaha hilarious. So true.

Can you please elaborate on what it takes to be advanced?
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Unread 01-07-2015, 03:54 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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Originally Posted by The Ram View Post
Are there potentials for good with the 12th? Yes... But in general the person has to be advanced to take advantage.

For 90% of ppl however its an evil ****ing house.
I wouldn't call it 'advanced', I would call it 'conscious'.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 03:56 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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Evil is in action and choices not astrological houses.
That's similar to the way I see it. It's a question of perspective, maybe also attitude and intention which then manifests as choices and actions and eventually things, people and circumstances.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 04:00 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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Turning concepts into the boogie man.... sigh this is our self undoing and binding our minds
Precisely. The chart is just a map of the territory, and a rather simple one. Just a very general jumping off place. One can be happy with just any chart. One can even be healthy, wealthy and wise with just any chart.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 04:08 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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I'm curious, why 12th house- Pisces -Neptune doesn't simply calculate?
I have read that every planet and sign has both positive and negative manifestations. 12th house, on the other hand, is rarely seen in a positive light through works of astrologers. Is it because some take the archetypal traits too literal?
Also, about access to the higher consciousness of Pisces, nowhere I looked Pisces is described as being so hard to reach as 12th house.
Confusing, I can say.
Well, if you read the usual books, they usually can only come up with 12 different principles. So, you've got a point there, of course. Some books engage in circular reasoning, they explain 12th House with Pisces and Pisces with Neptune and Neptune with 12th House and Pisces. In many popular books I've read over the years, the distinction between House, Sign and Planet tends to be a distinction without a difference.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 08:38 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianoasis View Post
The twelfth house isn't the house of undoing and evil that we're told it is, in fact this idea was spread by corrupt holy men world wide as they were also leading people astray from the true message of Jesus. The 12th house of astrology is the house of ascension and of the highest and most commanding power within yourself and everyone. The idea that the 12th house is that which enslaves you unto yourself was an idea perpetuated by none other than Aleistar Crowley, otherwise known as 666 or The Beast. The very idea doesn't even make sense, how could your consciousness, a unified manifestation, have outer influence and dysfunctional control over itself? No, the 12th house is in fact the house of your highest and purest intentions, the intentions set unto yourself before incarnating on this plane.

Thoughts/feelings?
It is the house of past neuroses to be dealt with often. It is more that we are our own worst enemy with addictions, and other harmful habits. It can be the house of escapism, illusion. delusion or higher spirituality, charity and compassion.

It can relate to those who are undermining you in secret. Of course the ruler of the 12th and where it sits has to be taken into consideration. The planets there and their aspects have to be taken into consideration. It indicates what we do when we are alone, in retreat, meditation, retirement and institutions of rehabilitation in particular. Asylums, gaols, archives, any place that is hidden or behind the scenes belongs to the 12th house.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 08:44 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Well, if you read the usual books, they usually can only come up with 12 different principles. So, you've got a point there, of course. Some books engage in circular reasoning, they explain 12th House with Pisces and Pisces with Neptune and Neptune with 12th House and Pisces. In many popular books I've read over the years, the distinction between House, Sign and Planet tends to be a distinction without a difference.
You need not to get the signs mixed up with the planets. The expression is different. Neptune is the ruler of Pisces and Pisces rules the 12th house in the natural chart.
Where Neptune sits in your chart and what aspects it makes will be different to mine and what house Pisces rules will also be different for everyone according to the ascendant.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 08:53 AM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

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Precisely. The chart is just a map of the territory, and a rather simple one. Just a very general jumping off place. One can be happy with just any chart. One can even be healthy, wealthy and wise with just any chart.
No, one cannot be wealthy with just any chart. You can gain wisdom through experience, it is true. Health issues can be overcome by some and not by others according to the energies they have to work with and have chosen for this time around

If you feel the natal chart is just a simple map then you can't read it, I would suggest and are not a competent astrologer, sorry.. Astrology is a complex science and art and takes a lot of practise to master.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 12:42 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Wow im hearing a lot about how astrology and houses don't make people evil and that people have choices over their actions.

My experience is that not 'I' was the one who turned evil during 12th house transits, but it attracted the most evil kinds of people out there to target 'me.' I don't think the 12th house person is the one who acts out.

Being conscious, yes through therapy! After being exposed to so many messed up people and having those experiences leave an imprint in your mind - one can only bring out the conscious side of it through very good therapy.

The positive in my eyes? - 12th house people becoming fantastic humanitarians with a tendency towards escapism as well.

Last edited by Abby83; 01-07-2015 at 12:45 PM.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 05:26 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

I have a 12 house merc or 12 sun in whole signs. I can sniff bad intentions out from others pretty fast. I also have a 1st moon and so this is only part of the picture. What really pisses me off is the passive helplessness of attributing blame to 1 aspect without even thought of how this energy is manifested in ones life. This is how you work this energy. All energy is workable and can lead to unlocking gifts and strength. My personal weakness is feeling isolated, if I am alone too long I feel like I am dying. I would be the first to die in solitairy confinment. I am aware of this and my needs so instead of feeling doomed or cursed, I need to focus on reaching out and talking to someone everyday. Or just go out and smile at people lol. Anyways energy is more complex than just good or bad and remember everything is connect and affected by the other; such as the mood an astrologer is in while explaining an aspect or chart.

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  #21  
Unread 01-07-2015, 06:36 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

WOW posts in this thread leave me speechless...
how litlle things you know about this house...
all of you try to prove that 12th house its the house of evil
or bad luck or i dont know what else
srsy people?

i have a stellium in 12th house in capricorn
so by your meanings i should commit suicide?
no way .....
every chart is build for its purpose plus the energy of the 12th house it can be very powerfull if you know how to use it for doing good in humanity
someone said that makes loy beeing the last...
srsy?look at the natal chart of madonna,george bush,obama and many many famous people have planets in 12th house
personally i was never the "last" i was always like to lead and be the leader
plus 12th house teached me that when you re beeing very kind good
with people people are taking advantage of you and try to abuse you
so you need to show them your warrior side which means
if someome tries to take advantage in you or abuse
you need to show him your sword

12th house can have a lot of meanings it can be anything
from philanthropy,fantasy,dreams,romantism,artistic gifts musician actor etc
but also as many people said hospitals,prisons,etc...

you cant never be sure about the 12th house
i ve seen many times in astrological forums threads about the 12th house and his connection to fame and the masses
and that many planets on the 12th house a stellium can also show fame
but giant kind of fame, worldwide, because the 12th house has to do with the masses dont forget that
12th house also rules the masses
but again that fame kind of thing depends...
depends what zodiac sign its inside the 12th house also the planets position degrees aspects etc..
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Last edited by Otherdude89; 01-07-2015 at 07:59 PM.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 07:08 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Well...yes, it all depends on the chart. That's why people are talking about their own charts and speaking about their experiences about the 12th house. The same thing happens when threads about the 8th house crops up, everyone complains about their placements.

But yeah, it can manifest in different ways. If you use Placidus, I have three 12th house planets and I'm usually tucked away inside my room doing occult things, studying, or creating art, the things you mentioned. I am also a home body since there's stuff hanging in the 4th house and all This house has been a blessing to me since its Ruler is the chart ruler and is in dignity receiving good aspects from other planets.



______
Also, you mention Obama and Bush. 12th house planets can indicate secretive and covert jobs, something hidden from the public... could it be that they are hiding something from the public? Government transparency has been at the forefront lately, especially since the Snowden incidents.

Also Madonna has an Aquarius ASC. She even said this herself, so she doesn't have any 12th house planets.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
Well...yes, it all depends on the chart. That's why people are talking about their own charts and speaking about their experiences about the 12th house. The same thing happens when threads about the 8th house crops up, everyone complains about their placements.

But yeah, it can manifest in different ways. If you use Placidus, I have three 12th house planets and I'm usually tucked away inside my room doing occult things, studying, or creating art, the things you mentioned. I am also a home body since there's stuff hanging in the 4th house and all This house has been a blessing to me since its Ruler is the chart ruler and is in dignity receiving good aspects from other planets.



______
Also, you mention Obama and Bush. 12th house planets can indicate secretive and covert jobs, something hidden from the public... could it be that they are hiding something from the public? Government transparency has been at the forefront lately, especially since the Snowden incidents.

Also Madonna has an Aquarius ASC. She even said this herself, so she doesn't have any 12th house planets.
Yeah plus Madonna seems like a douchbag, just my personal perception of her.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 08:04 PM
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Re: 12th House is not what we're told it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
Well...yes, it all depends on the chart. That's why people are talking about their own charts and speaking about their experiences about the 12th house. The same thing happens when threads about the 8th house crops up, everyone complains about their placements.

But yeah, it can manifest in different ways. If you use Placidus, I have three 12th house planets and I'm usually tucked away inside my room doing occult things, studying, or creating art, the things you mentioned. I am also a home body since there's stuff hanging in the 4th house and all This house has been a blessing to me since its Ruler is the chart ruler and is in dignity receiving good aspects from other planets.



______
Also, you mention Obama and Bush. 12th house planets can indicate secretive and covert jobs, something hidden from the public... could it be that they are hiding something from the public? Government transparency has been at the forefront lately, especially since the Snowden incidents.

Also Madonna has an Aquarius ASC. She even said this herself, so she doesn't have any 12th house planets.

Madonna never said that she has an aquarius ascendant
a woman with such fame will never go out and say "hey everyone im a leo
with an aquarius ascendant"
madonna's ascendant is virgo
and she has a stellium on 12th
sun,mercury,uranus,pluto,pallas,juno
and most famous people have planets or stellium on 12th..
keanu reeves etc...

if you dont believe me about madonna check this

http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Madonna
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Unread 01-07-2015, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otherdude89 View Post
Madonna never said that she has an aquarius ascendant
a woman with such fame will never go out and say "hey everyone im a leo
with an aquarius ascendant"
madonna's ascendant is virgo
and she has a stellium on 12th
sun,mercury,uranus,pluto,pallas,juno
and most famous people have planets or stellium on 12th..
keanu reeves etc...

if you dont believe me about madonna check this

http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Madonna
Like my son 12th mars... he is so smart and strong it scares people... they keep thinking he is several months older but also saturn and mars on ascendant. Whatever I call him superstar dr professor baby. If he wants to be a drag queen ballerina im cool with that too though lol. There is a lot of pressure on me to put him into solo combat sports by 5... not joking..family tradition. this can also be 12th mars. Odd thing I noticed is ill be upset all nervous loosing my cool and I turn to see my baby laughing at me. Or if something crashes other babies cry at the loud noise and he is delighted and fasinated???? Or an older baby was hitting him with a block before I noticed and he was laughing??? The kid hit hard. Is this in an way related to 12 mars? Also im really loud and dramatic and always talking.. and I catch myself saying get over it if he complains :/
yes I am bragging about my baby.

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