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  #1  
Unread 05-02-2013, 08:42 PM
LucasBride LucasBride is offline
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Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

I have Saturn at 23 Leo in my natal chart.
I know that he is in detriment. I have also decided that planets that are debilitated by detriment or fall can also be peregrine if they are not essentially dignified by domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term, or decan (even though others may disagree).
The only possible dignity for Saturn in my chart would be as "participating fire triplicity ruler" (dorothean triplicities). I suspect that participating triplicities do not count toward dignity, that only the triplicity of the sect in favor does, but I dont know. But, if participating triplicities did count in this, then Saturn could never be peregrine in a fire sign.

So, is my Saturn peregrine?

Many thanks,
Lucas

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Unread 05-02-2013, 09:15 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

I never could wrap my thinking all around those debilities, falls, exaltations, peregrines, etc and what they meant for a chart.

I was always happy that the Church of Light in LA, CA researched them through 30,000 charts using a 79 page questionnaire of the native for each one, collected by thousands of acolytes around the world from 1920-1950, and determined which ones actually made sense and which didn't affect anything using statistical analysis. Of course, no one could use the system until the early 1990's since personal computers weren't invented in 1950, and nobody was willing to do 12 hours of detailed calculations to figure this out for each chart. Now computers can do it in a fraction of a second.

But to each his own.

BTW, if this was posted in "Traditional Astrology", I would not be able to respond, but in Natal, I can.
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  #3  
Unread 05-02-2013, 10:16 PM
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Hi,

Let me link you to the e-book of one of my favourite astrologers, Kevin Burk, who makes traditional Astrology a piece of cake, a delight.

http://books.google.de/books?id=Z0nn...+burk#PPA84,M1

Scroll down to Saturn in Aries, Leo and Sag. Happy reading

AQ7
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  #4  
Unread 05-02-2013, 10:31 PM
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasBride
I have Saturn at 23 Leo in my natal chart.
I know that he is in detriment. I have also decided that planets that are debilitated by detriment or fall can also be peregrine if they are not essentially dignified by domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term, or decan (even though others may disagree).
The only possible dignity for Saturn in my chart would be as "participating fire triplicity ruler" (dorothean triplicities). I suspect that participating triplicities do not count toward dignity, that only the triplicity of the sect in favor does, but I dont know. But, if participating triplicities did count in this, then Saturn could never be peregrine in a fire sign.

So, is my Saturn peregrine?

Many thanks,
Lucas
Hello Lucas,

Yes, your Saturn is peregrine, at least in the medieval tradition Participating and contrary to sect triplicity rulers don't gain dignity from being in their triplicity.
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  #5  
Unread 05-03-2013, 04:11 AM
LucasBride LucasBride is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Thank you, aquarius7000 for posting that link, and Kaiousei no Senshi for your clear and helpful reply. Both basically give the same answer: participating triplicities dont count toward dignity.
I am sure they are good for something else tho

Anyways, THANK YOU!
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Unread 05-03-2013, 05:09 AM
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasBride View Post
Thank you, aquarius7000 for posting that link, and Kaiousei no Senshi for your clear and helpful reply. Both basically give the same answer: participating triplicities dont count toward dignity.
I am sure they are good for something else tho

Anyways, THANK YOU!
They're used for a time lord technique where the life is divided into three parts. The state of the planet will indicate how the native's life will be during that part of their life.
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  #7  
Unread 05-07-2013, 12:45 PM
mitchellwarnes mitchellwarnes is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Yes, of cause your Saturn is peregrine
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Unread 06-01-2013, 01:44 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

In Leo, which is the detriment of Saturn, it can't be peregrine. (I consider both essential dignities and debilities in judging peregrination. The concept of peregrination implies wandering, out of touch, lost, and neither hot nor cold but in a sort of limbo...so a planet in debiity can't be peregrine. The debility overrides peregrination.)

Only in the first two decanates of Sagittarius can Saturn be peregrine. I don't allow for face, but if you do the last third of Sagttarius is the face of Saturn. Otherwise, except for the 20th through 25th degrees of Sagittarius, Saturn is peregrine in that sign.

So, it depends on the parameters you establish or accept.
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Unread 06-04-2013, 11:53 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

The way I view it, Saturn is in detriment in Leo, an essential debility that overrides the possibility of being peregrine, just as being in his fall in Aries does.
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Unread 06-04-2013, 04:51 PM
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Only in the first two decanates of Sagittarius can Saturn be peregrine. I don't allow for face, but if you do the last third of Sagttarius is the face of Saturn. Otherwise, except for the 20th through 25th degrees of Sagittarius, Saturn is peregrine in that sign.
Apparently this is why business/market astrologers say there is bull market when saturn enters sagittarius. Saturn is on prozac here. I'm not sure how well that correlates in the past due to other probable factors, but this will be something to observe when it enters sagittarius at the end of next year. It's fascinating that saturn aspects to jupiter often create volatility (expansion/contraction), but saturn mostly submits when in the home of jupiter.

As far as peregrine planets in general, I have peregrine sun in late scoprio and I think it is an obvious effect. I feel like I can relate to scorpio, but I also I don't want be one due to differences on some principles. I'm only at club scorpio for study. More appropriately, it's like being an undercover agent embedded within a gang.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 04:55 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The way I view it, Saturn is in detriment in Leo, an essential debility that overrides the possibility of being peregrine, just as being in his fall in Aries does.

That's how I'd see it too (if I didn't entirely reject the peregrine concept as valid, which I DO)
HOWEVER,
...by the Traditionalist doctrines regarding peregrine over the past 800+ years, WE WOULD BE WRONG in our view!!
You see, debility/detriment does NOT rescue from the peregrine state!
In ancient times, peregrine meant neither dignified NOR detrimented, just "nothing", nada, "unattached"; but this definition changed around the mid to later Islamic transitional era times, and "debility does not save from peregrine" has been the dogma in the West, ever since...
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Unread 06-05-2013, 08:19 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Well, I'll be jabberwockied.
800 years, huh?
I can't believe I've been doing this wrong for the past 800 years.

OK, for all you Hottentots that insist on the New Revised Version of Strict Traditionalist Dogma, here's the latest skinny:

IN ARIES Saturn is in his fall. But "debility does not save from peregrine." Except for being in his own terms from the 27th through 30th degree inclusive, Saturn has no rescue. He is peregrine with no essential dignity. His terms can do no more than soften the effects of fall. The 29th degree is both deep and light. I'll leave it to heads woollier than mine to discuss the interpretation of these degrees. Judging from all this, Saturn is peregrine throughout the sign of Aries. While in his own terms, we might compare the peregrine Saturn to a wandering Korean exile who for a time finds himself in the Korean quarter of London, and while still a wanderer at least has some familiarity with the neighborhood.

IN LEO Saturn finds himself in detriment. He is in his exile in this sign. He is in his own terms in the first six degrees of the sign but otherwise has no dignity. Again, I don't think being in his terms saves him, but the strict constructionist will say that he does hold essential dignity in his terms and therefore is not peregrine. If we assume that my point of view is the correct one, something which is beyond dispute, then Saturn is peregrine throughout the sign of Leo.

Saturn IN SAGITTARIUS has neither dignity nor debility. But Saturn can’t be too comfortable in this Jupiter-ruled sign of expansion, prescience, buoyancy, flexibility...it’s just not his nature. The last ten degrees of the sign are his face, the weakest of the essential dignities, and his terms fall from the 20th through the 25th degrees of the sign, inclusive. Saturn is peregrine when found in the first two decanates of Sagittarius.

Fall and Exile are essential detriments of a higher order than peregrination. Since distinct conditions, such as fall and peregrination, do not cancel each other out but instead act each independently while contributing sympathetically to the whole, the stronger will overshadow the weaker.

This brings us full circle to our beginning proposition that essential detriments overshadow peregrination. Even if we allow peregrination, exile and fall continue to exert their influence, which is much stronger than that of peregrination.

One horn of our dilemma is Dogma; the other is Common Sense. The dogma was changed 800 years ago. Why fix something that wasn’t broke? This change happened during the times of the Moorish expulsion, and I wonder if it wasn’t somehow connected to that. The libraries at Toledo were overflowing with the knowledge of antiquity and the seed that blossomed in the period of the Enlightenment was planted. At the same time, some things thought to have been concocted by the Arabs were discarded or revised. The fact that the parameters for determining a peregrine condition could be changed with hardly a ripple leads one to conclude that said condition must not be a very powerful one. I vote for Common Sense, using astrology as the system of thought that it is at the root of astrology.

Last edited by greybeard; 06-05-2013 at 08:24 PM.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 10:23 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasBride View Post
I have Saturn at 23 Leo in my natal chart.
I know that he is in detriment. I have also decided that planets that are debilitated by detriment or fall can also be peregrine if they are not essentially dignified by domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term, or decan (even though others may disagree).
The only possible dignity for Saturn in my chart would be as "participating fire triplicity ruler" (dorothean triplicities). I suspect that participating triplicities do not count toward dignity, that only the triplicity of the sect in favor does, but I dont know. But, if participating triplicities did count in this, then Saturn could never be peregrine in a fire sign.

So, is my Saturn peregrine?

Many thanks,
Lucas
However, Hellenistic astrologers had a very different view of the dignities. To earlier astrologers, such as Vettius Valens, domicile rulership, exaltation, triplicity rulership and bounds rulership were all of equal strength in influence

Many modern astrologers take little heed of essential dignities, with the exception of domicile rulerships. This is most likely the result of the simplification of astrological technique that occurred when astrology lost popularity beginning in the eighteenth century

SOURCE:
http://en.ikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_dignity
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Unread 06-06-2013, 04:56 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

In the (very) oldtimes, in the West, regarding essential dignity, etc, we find that there were 3 specific categories/qualities: 1: dignity, 2: detriment, 3: peregrine (being neither #1 nor #2) Over the past 1000 years, this changed: we now find only 2 specifics: dignity and detriment/peregrine, for in fact the doctrine is that if a planet is not in dignity then it must be either detrimented or peregrine, and both are considered the defacto same thing, ie, a negative condition, indeed this allows a planet to be both detrimented AND peregrine at the same time, so we find really only one positive category (dignity) and fully 3 negative categories: 1) debility-2) peregrine-3)detrimented and peregrine. Seems lopsided in favor of essential debility (at least from my perspective)

Last edited by dr. farr; 06-06-2013 at 04:59 AM.
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Unread 12-17-2014, 09:57 AM
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

I used to feel that it was only useful for prediction and was not an essential dignity of its own. Now im not so sure as I think it must have some value in essential dignity, plus Ive seen talismans made where a planet was only essentially dignified as a participating triplicity ruler. If its enough for a talisman then it must have some value in essential dignity....

So I would say Saturn is not peregrine.
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Unread 12-17-2014, 10:20 PM
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Re: Can Saturn be Peregrine in a Fire Sign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasBride View Post

I have Saturn at 23 Leo in my natal chart.
I know that he is in detriment. I have also decided that planets that are debilitated by detriment or fall can also be peregrine if they are not essentially dignified by domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term, or decan (even though others may disagree).
The only possible dignity for Saturn in my chart would be as "participating fire triplicity ruler" (dorothean triplicities). I suspect that participating triplicities do not count toward dignity, that only the triplicity of the sect in favor does, but I dont know. But, if participating triplicities did count in this, then Saturn could never be peregrine in a fire sign.

So, is my Saturn peregrine?

Many thanks,
Lucas
TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES shows the answer

Saturn at 23 Leo is definitely Peregrine


HOW TO READ THIS TABLE
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

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