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  #51  
Unread 03-25-2011, 03:50 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

Thanks for being so informative Dr. Farr.

Now.....supposedly the Sun above the horizon is diurnal chart and best in terms of sect.....and joys in the 9th which is a cadent house? That confuses me.

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  #52  
Unread 03-25-2011, 06:50 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

The 9th house is the house of the God, so it makes sense the Sun joys there.

It's also not a cadent-from-the-ascendant-house, at least not in whole sign, and that's the measure.

But here's the deal on the 'cadent' houses. 3, 6, 9, and 12 are all a bit unfortunate for the native, though 3 and 9 are still good houses.

The 3rd is the house of the Goddess, which tends to produce interpreters of dreams and oracles. The 9th is the house of the God, which tends to produce priests. In both cases, your life isn't completely your own, because you're given to the Goddess or the God. This is why Moon joys in 3 and Sun in 9.

If you accept your fate (I'd want to see more than a Sun-sign, the houses would have to be stacked somehow) they really aren't that bad. It's not about bringing harm to the native in either case, but - you do have an obligation.

The 6th house is bad things that happen to you that aren't your fault, slavery, illness, and truly does not see the ascendant - very unfortunate for the native, and Mars joys there. The 12th is self-undoing, imprisonment, secret enemies, and illness again - also most unfortunate to the native and the joy of Saturn.

The 8th is another that doesn't see the ascendant, and that's - death, debt, fears, loss, bad stuff again. 2 doesn't see the ascendant and gets mixed reviews - some traditional sources think it's fine - it's where you make money - but at the very least it's a reminder that the ascendant doesn't see the second house and that means money isn't really in your control.

Even 7 (because it opposes the ascendant) and 4 (the end of things, the grave, amongst other meanings) are a bit mixed, and not entirely good - though they aren't too bad for most people.
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  #53  
Unread 03-25-2011, 08:03 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

I was considering that thought process using whole house signs. But I don't understand what you're saying still. (So much for having Mercury in Virgo. lol.)

So say a person is Aries rising with Sun in Sag in the 9th....the sun would joy there. Sun in fire is at home and in sect.....yet still a cadent 9th house which takes some of it's power YET the sun joys there. So I am thinking what you're saying is that ONLY the Sun really joys there and for the rest it would be cadent?

I still don't get WHY the Sun would joy in the 9th house. I get that it's a God house (and I appreciate that being religious minded myself)

And for a person who is religious minded, or philosophy minded or even loves international traveling....I don't see that being bad. I get the 12th house negativity THO I work for a big hospital and my solar returns show 12th house emphasis since I started working here. It hasn't been bad tho...not optimal but not bad either. lol. I like coming to work each day. I work for a great group of Doc's and folks.

It is said to be best to have malefics in a cadent house to deflect the damage that they could otherwise cause. My natal Saturn is in my whole 9th house (in Scorpio) but otherwise at the end of my 8th but still considered 9th house using placidius even tho I see it in the 8th. Using Hellenistic it's even in Saturn's bounds.

My 6th house has Uranus and Pluto there in Leo but using Hellenistic they are not counted since they aren't personal planets.

Still trying to figure this out. lol.
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  #54  
Unread 03-25-2011, 08:30 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

The sun is the representation of the manifestation of God, 9 is God's house, so that's where the sun joys - the representation of the manifestation of God joys in God's house. Same for 3 and Goddess.

Does that help any?
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  #55  
Unread 03-25-2011, 10:06 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
The sun is the representation of the manifestation of God, 9 is God's house, so that's where the sun joys - the representation of the manifestation of God joys in God's house. Same for 3 and Goddess.
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Originally Posted by Olivia View Post

Does that help any?


I understand that part. It's the cadent house that is supposed to make it ineffective or less effective that confuses me. lol.

I know Vedic places a very high status on the 9th house. It's where all our blessings are shown. But India is a very religious country too so sometimes I think it's a cultural thing. As with Western astrology we know that Venus and Saturn do not go well together and with Vedic it's the sign of a successful marriage. Endurance I can see but is there also happiness and joy involved?

My interests these days are both Hellenistic and Vedic and I see the benefit of both. But with Western I see my rising fit and with Vedic I see other things fit. As usual the Virgo in me wants one tidy answer and life doesn't seem fit to give me that. ahahaha. (I realize that's because many different beliefs can still often lead to the same sort of conclusion)
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  #56  
Unread 03-25-2011, 10:26 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

Okay, I'm coming down with flu, but I'll try again. Why is 9 cadent? It isn't cadent from the ascendant, it trines it.

It's cadent from the MC, which is the pinnacle of worldly success - that's what 9 is cadent (literally, falling away) from.

So it's not likely going to help you make a lot of money, but that's not the focus of 9 for most people, unless their 2 ruler happens to be posited there. But in general, it's the house of religion, higher learning, prophecy, dreams, pilgrimages, and the like.
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  #57  
Unread 03-26-2011, 04:13 AM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

Olivia has given a good explanation of the dynamics involved (as usual!)
The thing that makes a cadent house is that it falls away from a pivot (from an angular house)-the ancients called these houses "declines"; planets in them were considered to be less influential than planets in succedents, and those in succedents less so than in the angles (pivots as they used to be called) But then there were other qualifying factors involved, such as a planet being in its "joy"-the joys of the planets goes back to the earliest Greco/Roman times. Remember also that the place (now called "house") of the planet, and whether in its joy (the opposite place/house of the joy of a planet was called that planet's "sorrow") are ACCIDENTAL dignities/debilities, and therefore are a secondary consideration to the ESSENTIAL dignity or debility of the planet, and all of these factors must be balanced when coming to a final estimation of the strength/influence of the planet.
Also remember that the "meaning" of the places ("houses") for the Greco/Roman astrologers were much more limited than they have become over the centuries: the original "basic" meanings can be found in Manilius "Astronomica" (14 AD), and also note that if using a Fortunata chart, each of the 12 sections have a different indication/affinity than the "regular" (raw data horoscopic) chart has. And of course ALL of these considerations are based on the only house system they used (for horoscopes) prior to 500 AD, the whole sign house format. I wonder how really accurate houses constructed by quadrant systems are vis a vis the original house/quality allocations made by the ancients? But that's another (and very complex) question...
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  #58  
Unread 03-28-2011, 06:28 AM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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Originally Posted by Niplan View Post
thanks i understand a bit better, sometimes i wonder if im slow of if this is just confusing.
It can be confusing but you will sort it out in time. There is so much to learn about astrology and you need to take step by step.
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  #59  
Unread 03-30-2011, 06:27 PM
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  #60  
Unread 03-30-2011, 10:07 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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My question is how long do the periods last for each planet?
Do they each have different lengths in how long they last?
I realize that many use Saturn's length (30 years), but I have seen some poeple deny this, so that's the part that confuses me.

Like me as an example, am a Diurnal Chart, so I focus on where my Sun is found. It is in the First House, in a Water Sign (Scorpio), meaning that my first part of life is Ruled by Venus, then Mars, and then my Moon?

Venus is in Libra, and afflicted by the 3rd House (NeptuneUranus), but in Domicile. Furthermore, it is in the First Decante, and placed in the 12th House, which is ruled by Pisces, so in Exaltation in the 12th House?

My early years have been complicating, suggested by the affliction of the 3rd house, due to my woes and stuff, and like Uranus suggests, it has been how a person would say, extremely weird!

That's where I get confused though, when does the period of Venus end, and Mars begin. Sometimes I feel like Mars began already since my life has gotten better, and my Mars is in better condition than Venus.

My Mars is in Domicile Scorpio, found in the 1st House, and in Conjunct Pluto and Mercury. Trine Moon, sextile Uranus and Neptune as well. The only bad affliction is from Saturn in the 4th House. But I don't think it is so significant. It is also in the First Decante, and in it's own House.

Also the supportive one is my Moon, which isn't badly placed since there is like no affliction towards my moon. It is trine Pluto, Mercury and Mars, Sextile Uranus and Neptune, Bi-Quintile Jupiter, and not in fall or detriment since my moon is in 5th House, Pisces.
It is the 3rd Decante, and not in fall or detriment, as it is not in the 6th, or 3rd(?) house.

Having said that, and gearing back towards my previous question.
What are the lengths, phases, call-it-what-you-wish for each planet?
If your Sun is in the 1st house or below the horizon, then the Moon is the luminary in charge of the chart and making it Norturnal.
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  #61  
Unread 03-31-2011, 03:12 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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  #62  
Unread 03-31-2011, 04:07 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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Really? I thought that if the Sun was over the Asc line then it was Diurnal, and if it was below the Asc line then it is Nocturnal, at least that's what someone told me.

Ugh....That means Mars ruled my first part of life, and the venus. Geez that really does confuse me, since Venus is more afflicted then Mars, and my first part of life was horrible compared to me second, or what feels like second.
Hum, not sure what you mean by "over the ASC line." If your Sun is in the 1st house regardless of where it is even if it's conjunct and slightly past the ASC by degree then the moon rules, if it's conjunct your ASC but still in the 12th, then your Sun rules because it would be above the horizon.

Also consider what Dr Farr has said that ancient rulers used much larger age ranges, i.e. 0-40, 40-80, 80-120. I personally am going by this.
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  #63  
Unread 04-01-2011, 12:40 AM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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  #64  
Unread 04-01-2011, 12:55 AM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

Got your chart handy?

The other way to do it, and it's accurate for most people, is to take an honest look at your life and see which triplicity ruler matches it the best.

If your Sun is above the ascendant then it's your sect light. Why that would change with different house systems is beyond me. Even whole signs usually mark the ascending degree. Is it above that? If so, it's above the horizon.

Granted, for other purposes of delineation it would be conjunct the ascendant, but all we're trying to determine here is whether it's above or below the line. Unless, like so many of my clients, you're one of those troublemakers who was born with the sun right ON the ASC/DSC line!

That takes a bit more work.

ETA I just found your chart in another thread. Sun is above the ascendant, so your triplicity rulers are Venus, Mars, and the Moon, in that order.

Last edited by Olivia; 04-01-2011 at 01:01 AM.
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Unread 04-01-2011, 01:01 AM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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  #66  
Unread 04-01-2011, 01:07 AM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

See the edit I posted above, and you're correct.
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Unread 04-01-2011, 01:20 AM
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  #68  
Unread 05-07-2014, 03:03 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
Got your chart handy?

The other way to do it, and it's accurate for most people, is to take an honest look at your life and see which triplicity ruler matches it the best.

If your Sun is above the ascendant then it's your sect light. Why that would change with different house systems is beyond me. Even whole signs usually mark the ascending degree. Is it above that? If so, it's above the horizon.

Granted, for other purposes of delineation it would be conjunct the ascendant, but all we're trying to determine here is whether it's above or below the line. Unless, like so many of my clients, you're one of those troublemakers who was born with the sun right ON the ASC/DSC line!

That takes a bit more work.

ETA I just found your chart in another thread. Sun is above the ascendant, so your triplicity rulers are Venus, Mars, and the Moon, in that order.
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  #69  
Unread 05-19-2014, 08:05 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

I use Lillys trip rulers for nativities.

For planetary periods I use dorothean triplicities.
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  #70  
Unread 05-23-2014, 09:04 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

I've read all this and it's still not sinking in very well (also have read some articles).

I have a nocturnal chart, with Moon in feminine sign Capricorn. So the triplicity rulers are Moon, Venus and Mars. So the Moon is the 1st Trigon lord... of Moon?? So I'd look at it's own placement to see whether it's trouble? It is in 8th house whole sign, and by sign/house it is oppose Sun, inconjunct Mercury, sextile Jupiter, trine Venus and semi-sextile Saturn (I think). Capricorn is also the sign of Moon's detriment.

8H seems like a bad placement, just by the fact that it is inconjunct the 3rd house, where Moon is in "joy". I'm thinking, when determining how the house position is going to affect the expression of a planet, the aspect relationship between the house it is in and the house of that planet's joy will give an indication. For instance, Saturn is in joy in 12th, and in my chart it is located in the 7th whole house, so that would be an inconjunct. Saturn has difficulties expressing it's best qualities in the 7th, and it's "malefic" status will likely manifest because of it. However, the lesser malefic Mars is in the 8th house whole sign, making a sextile aspect to the 6th house, so 8th house is a productive place for Mars to be. I'm still confused by Olivia's explanation of which are angular and succedent houses based on the Ascendent. I would think 9H house would be cadent and 8H succedent, 7H angular regardless?

Moon's ruler is Saturn in my chart, which is in sect (below horizon) and in a masculine sign Sagittarius, semi-sextile Moon but disadvantaged by house (7H). This seems like Saturn exerts a lot of influence just based on this, despite being a nocturnal chart. I'm wondering if 7H being the house of one-one relationships and partnerships shows that Saturn works most effectively when in a partnership, which is uncomfortable considering Saturn's "loner" tendencies (this does ring true to me).

Venus and Mars are both in feminine/earth signs, Mars also in Capricorn (exalted) and Venus in Virgo (fall). I don't understand what that means or how to interpret that in regards to triplicity rulers being in the element of the triplicity. Does anyone have ideas about that?

Both benefics in my chart are out of sect while both malefics are in sect. Would that have the effect of diminishing the "fruits" of the benefics, but mitigating the difficulties of the malefics? My first thought would be that this is a zero-sum!

This stuff is complicated.
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  #71  
Unread 05-24-2014, 11:27 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

The triplicity lord for earth signs in nocturnal births is the moon. Thus your moon has +3 points of triplicity rulership, which cancels out most of the -5 points debility it has for being in its detriment. it being in trip rulership also cancels out peregrine status.

Your venus is unaffected however. Since there can only only be 1 triplicity lord of each element depending on whether its a dirunal or nocturnal chart. Since your chart is nocturnal the moon is triplicity lord of all your earth signs and the moon alone. If you were born during the day then Venus would be trip lord for the earth signs in your chart and thus your venus would gain dignity and your moon would lose its trip dignity.

Mars is only a participating ruler of earth signs. Which has nothing to do with assigning dignity in regards to nativities. Participating rulers are for predictions mainly ie, for 8th house matters in your chart for the 1st 3rd of your life youd look at the condition of your moon since yours is a nocturnal chart, then for the next 3rd of your life youd look at the condition of your venus, then for the last 3rd you look at the condition of the partipating ruler: mars. You can do this for any house. Also some feel that the participating lord blends with the other 2 trip lords for the final 3rd of the life, while others dont.

Saturn being in joy in the 12th is a reinvention of astrology by more modern traditionalists, according to manilius Saturns temple was actually the 4th house. Later on astrologers invented the idea of him joying in 12 to keep it line with their idea of sect. A strong malefic in a malefic house can cause serious problems for a person. Unless Saturn were seriously debilitated, I wouldnt want him in a malefic house.

Last edited by The Ram; 05-24-2014 at 11:39 PM.
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  #72  
Unread 05-24-2014, 11:37 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

In regards to your moon and her dispositors: its actually mars you should be looking at. Mars is exalted ruler of capricorn and in the same sign as your moon. Saturn however is inconjunct your moon, so mars is the more influential dispositer by far.
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Unread 05-24-2014, 11:57 PM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

Hi Flapjacks,

Quote:
This stuff is complicated.
Indeed it can be.

Quote:
I have a nocturnal chart, with Moon in feminine sign Capricorn. So the triplicity rulers are Moon, Venus and Mars. So the Moon is the 1st Trigon lord... of Moon?? So I'd look at it's own placement to see whether it's trouble? It is in 8th house whole sign, and by sign/house it is oppose Sun, inconjunct Mercury, sextile Jupiter, trine Venus and semi-sextile Saturn (I think). Capricorn is also the sign of Moon's detriment.
Yes. I'm assuming that you're trying to do the interpretation of the triplicity lords of the sect light to get a general outlook on the thirds of life. If you aren't, disregard everything to follow until further notice.

You started off well with identifying the triplicity lords of the sect light. A nocturnal birth, look to the Moon. The Moon is in an Earth Sign, and the lords are Moon, Venus, and Mars. So, you need to investigate the Moon to get a general idea of what the first third of your life is going to be like. In detriment, in a bad house, but has good aspects with the benefics and presumably is adverse to the malefics since you did not mention them. This seems like a life that has general gloomy overtones, but the native gets through with the support of other people or perhaps good coping skills.

You would then repeat this investigation with Venus. Is she essentially dignified or debilitated? How about accidentally? This would give you a general description of the second third of your life. Finally, you would similarly investigate Mars to understand the final third of life.


Okay, if I was wrong about what you were discussing, you may focus back in now.

Quote:
8H seems like a bad placement, just by the fact that it is inconjunct the 3rd house, where Moon is in "joy". I'm thinking, when determining how the house position is going to affect the expression of a planet, the aspect relationship between the house it is in and the house of that planet's joy will give an indication. For instance, Saturn is in joy in 12th, and in my chart it is located in the 7th whole house, so that would be an inconjunct. Saturn has difficulties expressing it's best qualities in the 7th, and it's "malefic" status will likely manifest because of it. However, the lesser malefic Mars is in the 8th house whole sign, making a sextile aspect to the 6th house, so 8th house is a productive place for Mars to be.
This is incorrect.

Quote:
I'm still confused by Olivia's explanation of which are angular and succedent houses based on the Ascendent. I would think 9H house would be cadent and 8H succedent, 7H angular regardless?
"Cadent" has two uses. There is "cadent from the angles" which are those houses which we typically think of when we think "cadent"; the Third, Sixth, Ninth, and Twelfth. However, "cadent from the Ascendant" is a different matter and relates to those houses that we normally identify as "dark" houses, the ones that don't aspect the Ascendant; the Second, Sixth, Eighth, and Twelfth. Olivia is referring to the dark houses.

Quote:
Both benefics in my chart are out of sect while both malefics are in sect. Would that have the effect of diminishing the "fruits" of the benefics, but mitigating the difficulties of the malefics? My first thought would be that this is a zero-sum!
This isn't possible, mostly.

There will always be one benefic and one malefic in sect in general. This depends on if the chart is diurnal or nocturnal. Saturn and Jupiter are in sect in diurnal charts (and so perform more fortuitously for the native). Venus in Mars are in sect in nocturnal charts (who will perform advantageously as well. However, it is possible to have planets out of sect in more minor sect considerations like hayz and halb, but the general diurnal/nocturnal consideration has always been the most significant.




Hello, The Ram

Quote:
The triplicity lord for earth signs in nocturnal births is the moon. Thus your moon has +3 points of triplicity rulership, which nearly cancels out the -4 points debility it has for being in its fall. it being in trip rulership also cancels out peregrine status.
It is not a good idea to conceptualize dignity and debility as a numbers game with points that can be added and subtracted (that is to say, it it useful in calculation, but not in interpretation). They are each qualitative effects and triplicity is no match for the affliction of the detriment the Moon experiences in Capricorn. It is best to think of them as the images they are assigned in texts where triplicity is typically something about coming from a good family or being in the right place at the right time, and detriment is someone who is completely disorganized or acting in a way that would be socially unacceptable.

Quote:
Saturn being in joy in the 12th is a reinvention of astrology by more modern traditionalists, according to manilius Saturns temple was actually the 4th house. Later on astrologers invented the idea of him joying in 12 to keep it line with their idea of sect. A strong malefic in a malefic house can cause serious problems for a person. Unless Saturn were seriously debilitated, I wouldnt want him in a malefic house.
This is most likely not true, but was common thought a few years ago. Since then we have texts from Manilius's contemporaries (mainly Thrasyllus of Mendes) that utilize the same Saturn in the Twelfth, Venus in the Fifth framework that we think of today when we use the planetary joys. This implies that Manilius was probably using an alternate - instead of the original - scheme.
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Unread 05-25-2014, 04:18 AM
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Hi Flapjacks,
This is most likely not true, but was common thought a few years ago. Since then we have texts from Manilius's contemporaries (mainly Thrasyllus of Mendes) that utilize the same Saturn in the Twelfth, Venus in the Fifth framework that we think of today when we use the planetary joys. This implies that Manilius was probably using an alternate - instead of the original - scheme.
In the (fragments) from Thrasyllus, and on through the texts from Valens and other early Hellenists, we find the Saturn in 12th/Venus in 5th Joy doctrine clearly established. It is my belief that Manilius represented a DIFFERENT ancient astrological stream (seperate from the Egyptian-Alexandrian genesis), which belief could be supported not only by the Saturn/4th Venus/10th Joy doctrine, but also in a number of other differences from the Alexandrian mainstream doctrines, found in Manilius (such as the Manilius decans, the duodenary based terms/bounds of 30 minutes of arc each, etc etc) My own leaning is that Manilius might have been the last exponent of an ancient stream possibly centering in Antioch, and which itself might have been a westward extension of an Irano/Indic current arising perhaps in the Indo-Greek Empire (180 BC - 10 AD), possibly at Alexandria-on-the Causcasus or Alexandria-on-the-Indus.
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Re: Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post

You started off well with identifying the triplicity lords of the sect light. A nocturnal birth, look to the Moon. The Moon is in an Earth Sign, and the lords are Moon, Venus, and Mars. So, you need to investigate the Moon to get a general idea of what the first third of your life is going to be like. In detriment, in a bad house, but has good aspects with the benefics and presumably is adverse to the malefics since you did not mention them. This seems like a life that has general gloomy overtones, but the native gets through with the support of other people or perhaps good coping skills.

You would then repeat this investigation with Venus. Is she essentially dignified or debilitated? How about accidentally? This would give you a general description of the second third of your life. Finally, you would similarly investigate Mars to understand the final third of life.

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post

"Cadent" has two uses. There is "cadent from the angles" which are those houses which we typically think of when we think "cadent"; the Third, Sixth, Ninth, and Twelfth. However, "cadent from the Ascendant" is a different matter and relates to those houses that we normally identify as "dark" houses, the ones that don't aspect the Ascendant; the Second, Sixth, Eighth, and Twelfth. Olivia is referring to the dark houses.
Okay, I see! Thank you for clearing that up. I don't know why it was so hard for me to understand all that.



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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post

This isn't possible, mostly.

There will always be one benefic and one malefic in sect in general. This depends on if the chart is diurnal or nocturnal. Saturn and Jupiter are in sect in diurnal charts (and so perform more fortuitously for the native). Venus in Mars are in sect in nocturnal charts (who will perform advantageously as well. However, it is possible to have planets out of sect in more minor sect considerations like hayz and halb, but the general diurnal/nocturnal consideration has always been the most significant.
What I mean by out of sect (at least how I've heard this term used) is that Moon is above the horizon so Venus and Mars are also better placed above the horizon to be in sect (with moon). However, Venus is below the horizon with Mars is above. Jupiter and Saturn would be better placed below the horizon with Sun to be "in sect" but Jupiter is above the horizon while Saturn is below. That is what I've read, anyway... Of course, I could have understood these terms wrong.

Another question: Is hayz used when the planet is well placed in any consideration or well placed overall? How well-placed does it need to be to be hayz?

Thank you for answering those questions, I appreciate it.
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