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  #1  
Unread 08-01-2018, 12:49 AM
aldebaran aldebaran is offline
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Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

I had always find a little weird that the most "fierce" of the Signs, rivalizing only with Scorpio is represented by... a Sheep.

When I heard, though, the description of Bharani nakshatra (which makes part of Aries) I found it quite comprehensible. Bharani means to bear, and the meaning is basically it: to bear, support, accumulate.

Now, for what a Sheep could be a symbol if not for this? The curious thing is that Aries chief star is called "Hamal", which, in arabic, means sheep. But also means "bearer" - we read on the thousand and one nights that on the streets of Baghdad, "bearer" (literally "Hamal") was a profession, a person that carries the products that a person has bought on the street stores.

The "fierce" element is also present(Sheratan star is the horn of the Sheep), though the Jyotish divides Aries on three nakshatras, Ashwini, Bharani and Kritikka, the fierce element is very present on Bharani, which is described as a nakshatra of "extremes".
Many descriptions of Bharani seems quite close to the Manilius description of Aries and it's intensity and tendence to extremes.

The difference is that I don't see in modern descriptions the characteristic of "accumulation", which might be too obvious for the ancient writers, by the mere symbol of the sheep, but that has been apparently weirdly lost.

Basically, reading modern sources accumulating seems to be related to Taurus, and Aries is fast, fierce, impulsive, etc; the metaphor of the Sheep is because Sheeps are, after all, energetic animals, but, with so many ferocious animals on earth, to buy this explanation is somewhat non sense.

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Unread 08-01-2018, 06:34 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

I connect Aries in the Greek tradition with the Ram of the Golden Fleece.
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Unread 08-01-2018, 10:48 AM
aldebaran aldebaran is offline
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Thats a good thesis, much better solution than finding ferocious characteristics on a Sheep's psychology, which i've seen often.

But would you share the feeling that the existence of bharani on east, and the arabic with hamal in the middle could point to a common past tradition that emphasized the element of accumulation?

I say this cause we know signs in general arent originated on greek mythology, but rather adapted sometimes clumsy, like the case of Cancer or Capricorn.
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Unread 08-01-2018, 12:36 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

Increase in the abundance of crops, size of the herds and an increase in the population makes sense regarding Aries. "Be fruitful, and multiply!"
The most Greek of the zodiacal constellations is Sagittarius, the Centaur.
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Unread 08-02-2018, 05:05 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

Have you ever seen a wild ram, or even a domesticated ram? Maybe you could learn more about their behaviour.

An intact domesticated male ram can be extremely belligerent. A friend of ours who raised special sheep breeds turned his back on one in a pen. It butted into him, loosening some of his teeth.

Have you taken a look at the horns of rams? The big horns are adapted to serious head butting with competing males during their rutting seasons.

I was once privileged to see a wild male desert bighorn and his little flock of ewes and lambs in a Utah desert, an area of a lot of cliffs. My husband and I tried to avoid startling them, but when the ram caught wind of us, he led his flock up a rock promontory. They grouped behind him, while he faced us, ready to head-butt anyone who approached them. A formidable foe to a wild wolf or cougar. (Not to much to a hunter with a high-powered rifle, but then the desert bighorn sheep evolved millenia before.) In this way, the ram seemed to symbolize raw courage.

Then the month of Aries was named for the lambing season in ancient Babylon, and was the first month of their calendar.

I like this picture, as it shows how the chevron shape of the ram's head is similar to the glyph for Aries.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 12:29 AM
aldebaran aldebaran is offline
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

There are some symbologies that for me seems obvious.

Zebra for black&white, Sloth for laziness, Chameleon for changing colors, Peacock for beauty, Skunk for smelling bad.

When someone describes Bowie as the "rock Chameleon" everyone understands this; and even if some group of people raise Chameleons and know well the personality of those animals in order to have deep notions about their behavior, still, I guess they will interpret the symbol as anyone else.

It seems me somewhat unreasonable that with so many ferocious animals on earth, the wise ancient civilizations would chose the sheep as a symbol to this, totally ignoring the obvious, notory, distint capacity it has for carrying fur.

Now, imagine if Chameleon was a Sign, but it meant in West the lovely tenderness this animal exibits; later we discover that in India there's a Nakshatra called "Changing colors", and this Nakshatra abides right among the Sign "Chameleon". It's somewhat like this with the Sheep, except that Sheeps don't change colors neither Chameleons are, in the extent that I know, filled with lovely tenderness.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 08:25 PM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Originally Posted by aldebaran View Post
There are some symbologies that for me seems obvious.

Zebra for black&white, Sloth for laziness, Chameleon for changing colors, Peacock for beauty, Skunk for smelling bad.

When someone describes Bowie as the "rock Chameleon" everyone understands this; and even if some group of people raise Chameleons and know well the personality of those animals in order to have deep notions about their behavior, still, I guess they will interpret the symbol as anyone else.

It seems me somewhat unreasonable that with so many ferocious animals on earth, the wise ancient civilizations would chose the sheep as a symbol to this, totally ignoring the obvious, notory, distint capacity it has for carrying fur.

Now, imagine if Chameleon was a Sign, but it meant in West the lovely tenderness this animal exibits; later we discover that in India there's a Nakshatra called "Changing colors", and this Nakshatra abides right among the Sign "Chameleon". It's somewhat like this with the Sheep, except that Sheeps don't change colors neither Chameleons are, in the extent that I know, filled with lovely tenderness.
I think it's significant that it's not "sheep" though. It's specifically a ram. While sheep in general are associated with following the herd and fluffiness and ewes with sweetness and gentleness, rams are associated with butting things with their heads. They are literally head-strong. The thing they're usually butting is another ram who is competition for their lady. It's all very Aries (fire, cardinal, masculine) to me.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 08:29 PM
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

Mythologically, I'm using the Ram of the Golden Fleece.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 08:35 PM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Mythologically, I'm using the Ram of the Golden Fleece.
I don't remember that one. I only remember it was Jason and the Argonauts who were involved with it. A quick look at wikipedia confirms that and also says that the ram the fleece came from was winged. Really? Goatfishes and Rambirds...
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Unread 12-20-2018, 08:55 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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I don't remember that one. I only remember it was Jason and the Argonauts who were involved with it. A quick look at wikipedia confirms that and also says that the ram the fleece came from was winged. Really? Goatfishes and Rambirds...
Its fleece could heal any wound, and it attempted to rescue two children, although one fell off in the air and was drowned (the Hellespont was named for her). It was sacrificed to Ares (Mars to the Romans).
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  #11  
Unread 12-20-2018, 09:03 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

Did a quick look-up, and it said the Constellation of Aries IS considered to be the Golden Fleece Ram. And I thought I was the only one using it as the Aries symbol! Crazy story though, because it was sacrificed by the same kid he saved. Who would DO that?!?
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  #12  
Unread 12-20-2018, 09:20 PM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Did a quick look-up, and it said the Constellation of Aries IS considered to be the Golden Fleece Ram. And I thought I was the only one using it as the Aries symbol! Crazy story though, because it was sacrificed by the same kid he saved. Who would DO that?!?
The myths are so brutal. Look at poor Prometheus, Orpheus, even Medusa. And Zeus just wouldn't stop raping every attractive woman he saw.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 10:59 AM
aldebaran aldebaran is offline
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

I'm not very acquainted with this myth, but it seems the important element is the Gold - wealth, richness, accumulation - like the "sheep" symbology.

Again, modernity associate these to Taurus, ignoring the Golden Fleece myth.

I've seen now there's a 4th century BC source that interprets the Golden Fleece as a book on alchemy.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 11:48 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

The Greeks weren't just looking at this metaphorically. These stories were vital to their World-View, just as the accounts in the Bible can be looked at metaphorically or literally during our Age. They actually named a sea lane, the straight known as the Hellespont, in accordance with what we call this "mythology".
Gold was the alchemical metal of the Sun, which brings in Fire. But it's the SACRIFICE of this wondrous rescuing, healing creature that really stands out for me. And the sacrifice was made to the original Greek version of Mars, "Ares", which is (coincidentally) close to the Latin for the Sign Aries. So, it made sense to have Mars as the brutal ruler of the Sign, demanding sacrifice unto death. The Greeks had a very unfavorable opinion of Ares/Mars, and of Cronus/Saturn as well. This entered into their astrological view of these two Planets as "Malefic". Both Aries and Capricorn are Traditionally ruled by extremely difficult Significators, and Modern astrologers have pretty much followed suit.

Last edited by david starling; 12-21-2018 at 11:52 AM.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 11:51 AM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

I think Aries, expressions such as implusiveness, courage, etc are limited by increasingly global law, right after the fall of Hitler ambitions for Lebensraum. The rigidness of Global Law (ruled by Saturn of both natural sign) makes Aries expressions stumbling to their defeated. No update as for now what will happen.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 11:59 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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I think Aries, expressions such as implusiveness, courage, etc are limited by increasingly global law, right after the fall of Hitler ambitions for Lebensraum. The rigidness of Global Law (ruled by Saturn of both natural sign) makes Aries expressions stumbling to their defeated. No update as for now what will happen.
I believe I know. And, I agree that this Age is Saturn-ruled, and that Saturn has enslaved Mars, and uses it for its own Purposes.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 12:11 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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I believe I know. And, I agree that this Age is Saturn-ruled, and that Saturn has enslaved Mars, and uses it for its own Purposes.
Thank you David, but I still had a hard time for understanding Chiron being ruled by Saggitarius. That's very contradicted with ancient text and my own experiences. For example: they both ruled by Jupiter naturaly in Pisces and Saggitarius and the fact I see in most sports the expressions of Pisces and Saggitarius are very well expressed, like they doing "Where Amazing Happen". We know many Saggitarius sign in classical object being a winner/glorious, same goes for Pisces with the recent greatness of Stephen Curry, LeBron James, etc. When Pisces expressing their interest at heart, unreal happen. That's my experience for Sagg amd Pisc being ruled by Jupiter.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 12:18 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

The Constellation Sagittarius IS Chiron. And Zeus/Jupiter had the power to turn Chiron the Centaur into a constellation. Awesome!
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Unread 12-21-2018, 12:34 PM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Thank you David, but I still had a hard time for understanding Chiron being ruled by Saggitarius. That's very contradicted with ancient text and my own experiences. For example: they both ruled by Jupiter naturaly in Pisces and Saggitarius and the fact I see in most sports the expressions of Pisces and Saggitarius are very well expressed, like they doing "Where Amazing Happen". We know many Saggitarius sign in classical object being a winner/glorious, same goes for Pisces with the recent greatness of Stephen Curry, LeBron James, etc. When Pisces expressing their interest at heart, unreal happen. That's my experience for Sagg amd Pisc being ruled by Jupiter.





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Unread 12-21-2018, 01:01 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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The Constellation Sagittarius IS Chiron. And Zeus/Jupiter had the power to turn Chiron the Centaur into a constellation. Awesome!
Yes, whatever you said, David. For us, let's enjoy this Saturn-ruled New Age. It still long time though for us (humanity) to enjoying it, before the Age of Destruction (12H circle of humanity) comes, as Jewish, Islamic, Christian teaching believes system where "The Messiah" saving all of us.

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R
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Unread 12-21-2018, 03:21 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Yes, whatever you said, David. For us, let's enjoy this Saturn-ruled New Age. It still long time though for us (humanity) to enjoying it, before the Age of Destruction (12H circle of humanity) comes, as Jewish, Islamic, Christian teaching believes system where "The Messiah" saving all of us.

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R
What sort of astrology are you talking about? I mean, tropical or sidereal?
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Unread 12-21-2018, 04:12 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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What sort of astrology are you talking about? I mean, tropical or sidereal?
I'm talking about astrology based on your constellation which is tropical. That Age of Destruction is my own interpretation based on ancient astrology interpretation of 12H.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 04:32 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

I have Saturn as Age Lord of the tropical Age of Capricorn now nearing its end, with some Aquarian qualities blending in at the cusp, but still an Age of Capricorn.
The tropical Ages appear in the tropical Zodiac, whereas the sidereal Ages do not, for astronomical reasons. Are you talking about Ages with direct sequence (tropical), or retrograde (sidereal)?
Obviously, I don't relate to the current Age as "new" or Aquarian. But, I am interested in your vision of the present and future. I just need to relate it to what's in the tropical Chart.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 06:44 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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I have Saturn as Age Lord of the tropical Age of Capricorn now nearing its end, with some Aquarian qualities blending in at the cusp, but still an Age of Capricorn.
The tropical Ages appear in the tropical Zodiac, whereas the sidereal Ages do not, for astronomical reasons. Are you talking about Ages with direct sequence (tropical), or retrograde (sidereal)?
Obviously, I don't relate to the current Age as "new" or Aquarian. But, I am interested in your vision of the present and future. I just need to relate it to what's in the tropical Chart.
So what are you using? Sidereal with pluto as a parameter of the "Ages"?

I'm using sidereal.

Well since the ancient astrology itself has correlations with the Abrahamic Theistic from my view point, I could see some pattern of fate in humanity like 12 pattern sign/house of ancient astrology. Like you said before this is just "only" the beginning of Aquarian Ages, so let's enjoying it, we're in the climax/prime years in Bona Fortuna Ages, progressive, discovery, etc. Then those discoveries could lead us to the Ages of Destruction. Nothing special, nothing new, nothing bizzare from my vision. It all come from the ancients text of Abrahamic Theistic. Ancient Astrology actually help me to understand and see the fate of humanity with the respect to the Abrahamic Theistic.


R

Last edited by SunConjunctUranus; 12-21-2018 at 06:49 PM.
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Unread 12-21-2018, 10:03 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
So what are you using? Sidereal with pluto as a parameter of the "Ages"?

I'm using sidereal.

Well since the ancient astrology itself has correlations with the Abrahamic Theistic from my view point, I could see some pattern of fate in humanity like 12 pattern sign/house of ancient astrology. Like you said before this is just "only" the beginning of Aquarian Ages, so let's enjoying it, we're in the climax/prime years in Bona Fortuna Ages, progressive, discovery, etc. Then those discoveries could lead us to the Ages of Destruction. Nothing special, nothing new, nothing bizzare from my vision. It all come from the ancients text of Abrahamic Theistic. Ancient Astrology actually help me to understand and see the fate of humanity with the respect to the Abrahamic Theistic.


R
Siderealy, I'm using the standard, Vernal Equinoctial Point method for determining the Ages. Tropically, I'm using something new, which was inspired by the sidereal Ages. The sidereal "Aquarian Age" concept was originally about predicting the time of the "Second Coming".
Tropically, the Aquarian Age hasn't begun yet. Most sideralists don't believe it's begun yet, either.

Last edited by david starling; 12-21-2018 at 10:05 PM.
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