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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #51  
Unread 01-05-2013, 11:02 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

No, mixed reception is a two way reception not a mutual one you even said they don't feel the same way towards each other so in other words it isn't mutual.

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  #52  
Unread 01-05-2013, 11:03 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juicey J. View Post
Also,to let everyone who reads said thread know, a mixed reception which, is planet A being in planet b's sign of domicile and planet b being being in planet A's sign of exaltation isn't a mutual reception.

QUOTE:

“.....Mutual reception does not have to be by the same level of dignity. If one planet receives another by sign, and the second receives the first by exaltation, that too is mutual reception


Mutual reception only indicates that both planets are receiving each other at the same time, and we can see from the dignities involved the extent to which they are capable of offering benefit through reception.

To be received by sign or exaltation is much better than being received by term or face...
source: Deborah Houlding



FURTHERMORE


“....Where friendly aspects exist between the planets, mutual reception heightens the benefits that arise from active co-operation; it reveals a situation where there is an easy trade of status and the potential for each planet to acquire something positive from the other. Where unfriendly aspects are involved, being received helps to protect a planet against the damaging effect of the aspect so that it can still draw benefit from the aspect”.... source: Deborah Houlding
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  #53  
Unread 01-05-2013, 11:07 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Well we agree a mixed reception is a two way reception rather or not we are willing to call it mutual is a matter of semantics. Im sure we agree a mixed reception isn't as mutual as one with the same dignity level.
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  #54  
Unread 01-05-2013, 11:18 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
The hang-ups over this idea is mostly going to come down to what individuals believe occurs during mutual reception. A popular (albeit modern) idea is that planets in mutual reception "exchange signs". Of course this would imply that a planet can be freed from its debility through a mutual reception, but that isn't quite what's going on
Just my opinion, "Exchanging Signs" is a concept that muddies the waters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
I also feel like many people consider mutual receptions as a sort of "general feel" for planets at any given time. This also isn't how they're supposed to be used. Only within the context of their relationship does mutual reception bring about anything satisfactory.

For example, the current Mars/Saturn Square. Typically, this is considered a very difficult aspect and if your horary or nativity has this configuration, it's going to be difficult for them to bring the matter to perfection. However, with the mutual reception, it makes it easier for those two planets to overcome the Square and achieve perfection of the matter. Of course, it's still two malefics and they're still Square, but hey! It's better than nothing!!

No, even that is mutual reception. Planet A and planet B are still receiving each other simultaneously (which is the definition of mutual reception), they just feel differently towards one another.
Exactly
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  #55  
Unread 01-23-2014, 01:57 PM
mihalerm mihalerm is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Hi @ll
I am new to this thread and also new to Traditional astrology.
I found this thread fascinating and therefore will put my question forward.

R. Zoller in his Foundation Course, lesson 3, page 6/7, states

" The Sun is in detriment, but, while opposed to Saturn, it
is in mutual reception with Saturn. That is, they are in each
other's Signs. This was held by some Medieval Authorities to
be a great good thing. It was held to be similar to having the
two planets in dignity, working together. So, employing this
opinion, we can expect the Sun to be brilliant and powerful
and Saturn to be reserved, knowledgeable and indicating a
taste for ancient, arcane studies."
Note: Sun at 5deg Aqua and Saturn at 5deg Leo.

I have the same kind of configuration in my chart i.e. Sun at 2deg Libra in 1st House (Conj Asc at 29deg Virgo) and 2nd sign, in opposition to Saturn at 2deg Aries in 7th House and 8th Sign. Both Planets are in fall and in Mutual Reception by exaltation. Also both planet are squared by Mars at 26deg Sag in 4th House (and Sign).

Not considering Zoller´s statement (above) this configuration would lead by quadrant, to a terrible partner and problems and limitations in marriage. By Whole Houses it would indicate that I would have problems with debts.

As a matter of fact I had a quite normal wife and a reasonable, lasting marriage.
As to debts, I never had any problems. Was (and am till now, at least) always solvent, in other words, I have (and always had) an upper middle class stable financial situation. Note, I am over 70 years old, retired and no debts at all (not even mortgage - bought my apartment in cash)!!!

In my understanding, my life and chart ratify the above Zoller's statement.
Am I wrong?

Last edited by mihalerm; 01-23-2014 at 02:00 PM.
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  #56  
Unread 01-23-2014, 04:31 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
Hi @ll
I am new to this thread and also new to Traditional astrology.
I found this thread fascinating and therefore will put my question forward.

R. Zoller in his Foundation Course, lesson 3, page 6/7, states

" The Sun is in detriment, but, while opposed to Saturn, it
is in mutual reception with Saturn. That is, they are in each
other's Signs. This was held by some Medieval Authorities to
be a great good thing. It was held to be similar to having the
two planets in dignity, working together. So, employing this
opinion, we can expect the Sun to be brilliant and powerful
and Saturn to be reserved, knowledgeable and indicating a
taste for ancient, arcane studies."
Note: Sun at 5deg Aqua and Saturn at 5deg Leo.

I have the same kind of configuration in my chart i.e. Sun at 2deg Libra in 1st House (Conj Asc at 29deg Virgo) and 2nd sign, in opposition to Saturn at 2deg Aries in 7th House and 8th Sign. Both Planets are in fall and in Mutual Reception by exaltation. Also both planet are squared by Mars at 26deg Sag in 4th House (and Sign).

Not considering Zoller´s statement (above) this configuration would lead by quadrant, to a terrible partner and problems and limitations in marriage. By Whole Houses it would indicate that I would have problems with debts.

As a matter of fact I had a quite normal wife and a reasonable, lasting marriage.
As to debts, I never had any problems. Was (and am till now, at least) always solvent, in other words, I have (and always had) an upper middle class stable financial situation. Note, I am over 70 years old, retired and no debts at all (not even mortgage - bought my apartment in cash)!!!

In my understanding, my life and chart ratify the above Zoller's statement.
Am I wrong?
Another consideration is that
the signs of mutual reception between Sun and Saturn vary

i.e.
Sun Aquarius in mutual reception with Saturn in Leo
is very different from
Sun in Libra in mutual reception with Saturn in Aries
because
Sun and Saturn are either
in each others domiciles
or
in each others exaltation

Zoller is world renowned in the world of medieval astrology
and clearly speaks with authority

what is interesting is
Libra is Venus domicile
and Aries is Mars domicile

so the additional factors to study in the particular natal chart
are the house and sign locations of Venus and Mars respectively
as well as any aspects to/from Venus and Mars
made by natal planets

and of course the Ascendant sign/angles generally
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  #57  
Unread 01-23-2014, 04:51 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Mutual reception is very useful concept to know and it often identifies major issues in life that is highly beneficial or highly malefic and it does have variable behaviour when it comes to other combination with eclipse, transits, and progression overall mutual reception in my own understanding can Exacerbate/Escalate the condition of the two planets representing in your chart. But you must read the whole chart to conclude their manifestation and they are not always good or always bad they just happened to work together.
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  #58  
Unread 01-23-2014, 07:10 PM
mihalerm mihalerm is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

>> JUPITERASC and poyi
Thanks for your comments. Will keep them in mind.
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  #59  
Unread 01-23-2014, 07:36 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Mutual reception is very useful concept to know and it often identifies major issues in life that is highly beneficial or highly malefic and it does have variable behaviour when it comes to other combination with eclipse, transits, and progression overall mutual reception in my own understanding can Exacerbate/Escalate the condition of the two planets representing in your chart. But you must read the whole chart to conclude their manifestation and they are not always good or always bad they just happened to work together.
QUOTE


'….Reception obtains when a planet is in aspect by degree with its domicile or exalted lord....


Generally speaking, received benefics produce a stronger good, while received malefics impede less.


Reception takes away the evil from a situation.


So that a planet's signification will not suffer, even if it is in a bad place.


A received planet – or rather the person signified by it – will be able to bear its own problems more easily....' Benjamin Dykes Introduction to the works of Sahl and Masha'Allah
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  #60  
Unread 01-23-2014, 07:56 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

QUOTE



'…. reception is essentially about having a surrogate home –
a form of support independent of on one's own ownership and responsibilities


Unlike being in one's own domicile,
where one can rely on oneself,

received planets have others helping and esteeming them,

it is as though the received planet is vouched for.


This notion of a surrogate home explains

why received planets have joy and security,

can perfect reliably ( because they have support )

show a connection to home and returning home,

have honor instead of disgrace,

have allies,

involve truthful intentions ( as though they are trusted )

have peaceful relations with their receivers....'

source: Introduction to WORKS OF SAHL AND MASHA'ALLAH translated by Benjamin Dykes
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  #61  
Unread 01-24-2014, 05:07 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
QUOTE


'….Reception obtains when a planet is in aspect by degree with its domicile or exalted lord....


Generally speaking, received benefics produce a stronger good, while received malefics impede less.


Reception takes away the evil from a situation.


So that a planet's signification will not suffer, even if it is in a bad place.


A received planet – or rather the person signified by it – will be able to bear its own problems more easily....' Benjamin Dykes Introduction to the works of Sahl and Masha'Allah
JA I am thinking more along the line. Even two appearing to be mutual benefit by their dignity and giving away the sign with dignity to each other. There are other aspect as such another planet also in contact with these two can modify the actual expression.

For example, using a make up example may not actually occur, if Mars in Virgo, Mercury in Scorpio these two were also in contact with Venus in Pisces then Mars will gain benefit from Venus as his triplicity but Venus will be aspecting Scorpio as her detriment, then Mercury also aspecting his fall. Then the loop will be a mix of good and bad together they exacerbate/escalate the situation most likely to both directions?

Or in natal Mars in Virgo and Mercury in Scorpio, but simply, transiting Venus conjunct natal Mars in Virgo will also in sextile with Mercury in Scorpio that is her detriment also, that can also modify the actual original benefit of the natal through transiting planet.
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  #62  
Unread 01-24-2014, 05:46 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post

I have the same kind of configuration in my chart i.e. Sun at 2deg Libra in 1st House (Conj Asc at 29deg Virgo) and 2nd sign, in opposition to Saturn at 2deg Aries in 7th House and 8th Sign. Both Planets are in fall and in Mutual Reception by exaltation. Also both planet are squared by Mars at 26deg Sag in 4th House (and Sign).
Um. Ok, let's break this down. poyi, are you following? We don't even need the entire chart to do this, though it would be helpful. Because my real question is where is Jupiter.

Saturn opposed the Sun is always going to be retrograde. Always. It isn't even a matter of mutual reception, though in this case and as mihalerm suggests...Saturn is rendered inpperable. Why? What is the nature of Saturn? To reject and exclude. What is Saturn? The greater malefic, a cold, dry planet. How strong are the superior planets at their opposition from the Sun? (because Mercury and Venus can never, ever oppose the Sun?) Not strong. the opposition is their weakest point.

Saturn is the dark, the end, the gateway to nothingness. He is an anathema to the lights, which is why in the Thema Mundi he is assigned rulership over the signs he does have...and a retrograde Saturn opposed the Sun, in his fall is cowering in the corner pissing his pants in fear. Because he isn't only in the house of the Sun (which would be Leo, and how often do your relatives/familiars exalt you anyway) he is in the exaltation of the Sun. Where the Sun is God and Saturn will be hunted down and lynched before he is burned at the stake.

The early degrees of Aries belong to Jupiter for terms, and Saturn has zero dignity there. While Libra falls in the solar half of the Zodiac, and so though is Sun's fall from exaltation, Sun will always occupy the stronger position in this particular configuration. Which planet trumps whom? Sun or Saturn? Because the other thing to consider is sect. Sun below the horizon means this is a day chart, Saturn is a diurnal planet and so wants to be in the same half as the Sun, and at the opposition can't be. Ahem.

milharlem? Where is the Moon?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
Not considering Zoller´s statement (above) this configuration would lead by quadrant, to a terrible partner and problems and limitations in marriage. By Whole Houses it would indicate that I would have problems with debts.
Only if you choose to look at dignity and disregard the rest of the body of traditional astrology. Sect, bound rulers, degree influences...all will play a role. Let's just think for a minute. Saturn is a cold, dry planet. Aries is a hot sign. This will have the effect of mitigating Saturn's coldness so that his maleficence is tamed and actually allow the benefits of Saturn to manefest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
As a matter of fact I had a quite normal wife and a reasonable, lasting marriage.
As to debts, I never had any problems. Was (and am till now, at least) always solvent, in other words, I have (and always had) an upper middle class stable financial situation. Note, I am over 70 years old, retired and no debts at all (not even mortgage - bought my apartment in cash)!!!
Good for you. You just figured out how to reap the benefits of a malefic completely hamstrung in your chart.

What's up with the 5th and 6th houses in your chart? Do you suffer from migraines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
In my understanding, my life and chart ratify the above Zoller's statement.
Am I wrong?
Nope. Just that...comparing only your chart will allow you to personally experience what your chart promises. If you really want to prove your theory, then it must needs many, many more charts to study...and to study the whole of.
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  #63  
Unread 01-24-2014, 01:12 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

tsmall thank you VERY MUCH for your enlightening considerations.
In order to answer your questions, as you suggested, it is better to post my chart.
As to migraines, I don't even know exactly what that is .
As to your statement "Sun below the horizon means this is a day chart", it seems to me you that there was some typing mistake.
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  #64  
Unread 01-24-2014, 02:52 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
JA I am thinking more along the line. Even two appearing to be mutual benefit by their dignity and giving away the sign with dignity to each other....
Nevertheless, traditionally speaking, the following advice from Benjamin Dykes Translation of THE WORKS OF SAHL AND MASHA'ALLAH is important to remember

QUOTE

'.....we can understand this somewhat better if we think of medieval feudal relations.

In the medieval period,
attachment to a Lord
or other institutional authority
- with its own moral and legal standards of conduct -
was an important way of establishing oneself as stable, loyal, and dependable....'

QUOTE

'... the modern idea of the unattached individual
existing by himself
would have struck traditional people as strange
and suspicious.
If we imagine the difference
between a warrior who is unattached to any fixed purpose
- and thereby is unpredictable and dangerous -
and one who has become domesticated and disciplined through service to a Lord,
I think we can see analogically
why a received planet would impede matters less than an unreceived one'

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
There are other aspect as such another planet also in contact with these two can modify the actual expression.

For example, using a make up example may not actually occur, if Mars in Virgo, Mercury in Scorpio these two were also in contact with Venus in Pisces then Mars will gain benefit from Venus as his triplicity but Venus will be aspecting Scorpio as her detriment, then Mercury also aspecting his fall.
Then the loop will be a mix of good and bad together they exacerbate/escalate the situation most likely to both directions?

Or in natal Mars in Virgo and Mercury in Scorpio, but simply, transiting Venus conjunct natal Mars in Virgo will also in sextile with Mercury in Scorpio that is her detriment also, that can also modify the actual original benefit of the natal through transiting planet.
Keep in mind the natal promise

Natal promise supercedes one transit

and

transits alone pass with no effects

UNLESS

using the example you have chosen
Venus is for example the Lord of the Yearly Profection

or

Venus is Ruler of the ascendant of the Solar Return

Traditional astrology considers much more than solely transits
on their own
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  #65  
Unread 01-24-2014, 04:00 PM
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I see. So using myself as an example. I know that Venus transit Mars in Virgo will not always bring any significant change unless the natal is up to that manifestation. So for the Profection year under Venus rulership which is my natal 2nd house but the 1st house of the year then this Venus transit conjunction to Mars in Virgo will be significant. So if I got it right my 2nd, 14th, 26th, 38th etc years of age when Venus happened also to transit Virgo then it would affect my matter related to my 2nd house then?

Since the natal is Mars in Virgo trine Moon in Capricorn then both sextile Mercuy in Scorpio. When Venus transit to conjunct Mars in Virgo that is her fall but will then be benefited by moon in Capricorn but then detrimental because of Scorpio Mercury. I was 26 in 2009 can't really recall any major financial issue. But I think during 2010 before the next Profection year I was in really poor health. I finally got diagnosed with WPW syndrome with my heart so that is relevant to the Profection year as the year ascendant in natal 2nd.
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  #66  
Unread 01-24-2014, 04:38 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
I see. So using myself as an example. I know that Venus transit Mars in Virgo will not always bring any significant change unless the natal is up to that manifestation. So for the Profection year under Venus rulership which is my natal 2nd house but the 1st house of the year then this Venus transit conjunction to Mars in Virgo will be significant. So if I got it right my 2nd, 14th, 26th, 38th etc years of age when Venus happened also to transit Virgo then it would affect my matter related to my 2nd house then?

Since the natal is Mars in Virgo trine Moon in Capricorn then both sextile Mercuy in Scorpio. When Venus transit to conjunct Mars in Virgo that is her fall but will then be benefited by moon in Capricorn but then detrimental because of Scorpio Mercury. I was 26 in 2009 can't really recall any major financial issue. But I think during 2010 before the next Profection year I was in really poor health. I finally got diagnosed with WPW syndrome with my heart so that is relevant to the Profection year as the year ascendant in natal 2nd.
Check with profection wheel attached to this post
that you have correct Yearly Profection


Then create Solar return for that Year


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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 01-24-2014 at 04:41 PM. Reason: added profection wheel
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  #67  
Unread 01-24-2014, 05:01 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
tsmall thank you VERY MUCH for your enlightening considerations.
In order to answer your questions, as you suggested, it is better to post my chart.
As to migraines, I don't even know exactly what that is .
As to your statement "Sun below the horizon means this is a day chart", it seems to me you that there was some typing mistake.

Yes. It was a misstatement. My only excuse is that it was very, very late (or early, depending on how you look at it) when I wrote this.

Migraines are severe headaches and can be one indication of Saturn in Aries. No matter.

I do have a question though. Have you rectified your ASC/birth time? That you have Sun so close to rising, and based on your account of how this aspect has worked out for you (and at 70 you ought to know) it seems to me that it really should be a day chart.

BTW, your Sun conjuncts mine to the degree.

Here's what I'm thinking...your ASC needs to be in early Libra putting Sun above the horizon. I can't tell, is Venus in Leo or Virgo? Either way I think Venus goes into the 11th...
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  #68  
Unread 01-24-2014, 06:40 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

No, I have not rectified my chart because I am not certain about how to do it.
I used the birth certificate time.
As to Venus in the attached chart it is in 0.01 degrees Virgo
Why do you think that my Sun should be above the Horizon and Venus in 11th house?
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Unread 01-24-2014, 08:20 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Sect.

Sun, Jupiter and Saturn, as well as Mercury in your chart, are all of the diurnal sect.

Jupiter in your 4th is really strong, not just for being inthe 4th house but also because he stationed direct shortly before you were born, second station. Yet he is in feminine sign and degree. It would make more sense, to me at least if he were of the sect of the chart.
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Unread 01-24-2014, 09:18 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Check with profection wheel attached to this post
that you have correct Yearly Profection


Then create Solar return for that Year


Thanks for the wheel. Just a short reply.

So 26th years was the natal 3rd house. It is still relevant since the natal mutual connection between Mars, Mercury and Moon 3rd house also contains my natal ascendant ruler so it would have still manifest the natal physical health problem. The Solar return for 2009 of my 26th years of age, was Solar return AC 13 degrees 30 in Aquarius right at the cusp of natal 6th house cusp of 13 degrees 21 Placidus and the whole sign 6th sign of the natal house with Jupiter 18 degrees 26 in Aquarius. That year, I first learned about my personal mortality with clear medical diagnosis at last after many years of symptoms. Natal Mars and Mercury mutual reception rulers of 1st, 3rd, 8th, 10th.

At 38th years if still living in current location, I will again have Jupiter in Aquarius transiting my natal 6th house. With Solar return 6th in my natal 10th Placidus cusp conjunct natal North node. Solar return 8th in my natal 12th. With solar return Mercury and Mars both in partile conjunction less than 2 degrees conjunction to the natal Saturn the ruler of natal 6th house. Solar return Mercury and Mars partile conjunction ruled over Sun, SR 6th, NN & 11th so not too bad being placed in 11th.

To tell you the true, I actually often thought of my own mutual reception of Mars, Mercury, Moon to be the actual link of this congenital condition as Accessory Electrical Conduction Pathway of the heart. Mars is the ruler of the 3rd Scorpio Sun 12th house lord, Scorpio Mercury ascendant lord & 8th house also the ruler of the Saturn in Scorpio 6th house lord, my Part of Illness is in Leo in 12th house. Mars is overly strengthen/excited, simply too much and therefore I link this to the Accessory electrical (Mercury) muscular (Mars) conduction (Mars, Mercury) pathway of the heart (Sun). The trigger of the symptoms is often related to Emotion and lack of Sleep both Moon.
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Last edited by poyi; 01-24-2014 at 09:23 PM.
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Unread 01-24-2014, 09:40 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
No, I have not rectified my chart because I am not certain about how to do it.
I used the birth certificate time....
We frequently discuss official birth times and their reliability/unreliability

Fact is, the medical team attending delivery of a newborn
are in general not seated at their computer desks
ready to input the precise time of birth and calculate a natal chart
Accuracy of time of birth is secondary to the health, safety and general welbeing of both mother and newborn
Keep in mind that following delivery, the mother requires immediate medical attention
as does the newborn who requires their airways checked
their vital signs checked
then is usually weighed, washed, clothed
all occurring before the time of birth is noted

Clocks are frequently fast or slow, for any number of reasons
medical notes are made by humans who are subject to human error
and so on ad infinitum

Therefore the official time of birth is basically a guideline
utilised as a base for astrological rectification procedures
such as the ancient technique known as The Trutine of Hermes
also known as the PreNatal Epoch... free instructions for the calculation of which are available at

http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm

Since the ascendant sign changes every four minutes
it is possible that as tsmall noticed
IF your time of birth is in error by only a few minutes
THEN
your ascendant may well be early Libra
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Unread 01-24-2014, 11:53 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

>tsmall
I see your point BUT for me the Virgo Asc makes more sense than a Libra Asc since:
Mercury in House 1 (by Whole Houses) confirms my active academic and scientific life - I was Professor at a renowned University in Brazil for over 17 years besides having a successful carrier in the Nuclear Engineering field both in Brazil and abroad (Moon in House 9 *quadrant* and House 10 *Whole Houses* )

If the Asc would fall in Libra, Mercury would definitely be in the hidden and weak 12th house and probably not ruling my 10th house anymore - therefore contrary to the reality.
Also, if Venus would fall in House 11, would make even less sens for me than having Venus in House 12 - hidden and secret affairs...ups, enough for this subject.
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Unread 01-25-2014, 12:10 AM
mihalerm mihalerm is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

> JUPITERASC

Thanks for your detailed explanation on a birth process and proceedings.

My consideration is the following. Since the op-room personnel is mainly interested in the newborn and do not care much about birth time details, then quite probably (if not certainly) they would register the birth time LATER, some time AFTER the birth and not before the birth!
Therefore my birth time is probably before 5:30 hours (as in the birth certificate) and not after this time.
This leads consequently into a smaller (smaller than 29 degrees) Virgo Asc and not into a Libra Asc!!!
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Unread 01-25-2014, 12:20 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
> JUPITERASC

Thanks for your detailed explanation on a birth process and proceedings.

My consideration is the following. Since the op-room personnel is mainly interested in the newborn and do not care much about birth time details, then quite probably (if not certainly) they would register the birth time LATER, some time AFTER the birth and not before the birth!
Therefore my birth time is probably before 5:30 hours (as in the birth certificate) and not after this time.
This leads consequently into a smaller (smaller than 29 degrees) Virgo Asc and not into a Libra Asc!!!
Birth times that are on the exact hour, half hour or quarter hour are likely rounded. The rounding can go in either direction if the person recording the time is later trying to remember it. "Hmm, I think it was after 5 but before 6 am..." Especially so in the year you were born. If you prefer a Virgo ASC I'm certainly not going to argue the point.

You seem vehemently opposed to a Libra ASC. This made me laugh because your chart so closely resembles mine. Sun in 3rd degree Libra, Mars in 3rd house but 4th sign, Venus in Virgo, Mercury in 1st. Only I have a Libra ASC.

At any rate, a really good book that is comprehensive especially as regards the mechanics of planetary position and phase is Benjamin Dyke's Introductions to Traditional Astrology.
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Unread 01-25-2014, 12:23 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mihalerm View Post
>tsmall
I see your point BUT for me the Virgo Asc makes more sense than a Libra Asc since:
Mercury in House 1 (by Whole Houses) confirms my active academic and scientific life - I was Professor at a renowned University in Brazil for over 17 years besides having a successful carrier in the Nuclear Engineering field both in Brazil and abroad (Moon in House 9 *quadrant* and House 10 *Whole Houses* )

If the Asc would fall in Libra, Mercury would definitely be in the hidden and weak 12th house and probably not ruling my 10th house anymore - therefore contrary to the reality.
Also, if Venus would fall in House 11, would make even less sens for me than having Venus in House 12 - hidden and secret affairs...ups, enough for this subject.

Cookbook/one size fits all astrology declares that 'Venus in House 12 must mean hidden and secret affairs'

HOWEVER

since there are many with Venus in House 12 who have never had a hidden and secret affair

there clearly is another explanation for the hidden and secret affairs

Traditionally, Venus in House 12 does not automatically mean hidden and secret affairs

Main Rulerships of 12th House Traditionally are:

QUOTE

'....The 12th house represents matters that are hidden, restrained, secret, incapable of action or of being fully understood.

Traditionally, however, it is a wholly unfortunate house, associated with sad events,
sorrow, anguish of mind, tribulation, captivity, imprisonment,
persecution, hard labour, all manner of affliction and self-undoing.

It represents places that are denied access to public view,
particularly those concerned with seclusion or isolation,
or where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style, such as institutions or prisons.
Many sources attribute monasteries to the 12th house as places of isolation,
but otherwise monks and nuns belong to the 9th house which represents religious concerns......'


'.....12th has rulership over scandals generally, personal fears and skeletons in the family closet.

Lilly notes: "the significator in the 12th house can show someone in despair" ([CA], p.42).

Its significations include secret, unknown enemies,
such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours or inform secretly against them: traitors,
spies; witchcraft, malicious hauntings;
weakness, infirmity and bondage.

It also rules great cattle, such as horses, oxen, elephants, of which Ezra notes "Those which serve as a mount for men".....'

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