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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 01-03-2013, 03:50 PM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

The exaltation house if you will is only a vacation home, a planet only has one true/main house and is the main focuses of a house/signs energies. The concept of their being more then one dispositor and the final dispositor (domicile or two planets in domicile reception is a throwback from ancient astrology, although now a bit bastardarized) Rob hand does talk about pushing the dignity in like the first half hour of his lecture on receptions.

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  #27  
Unread 01-03-2013, 04:03 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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The exaltation house if you will is only a vacation home....
'Only'.... That's a misleading statement, particularly when one considers the definition of Exaltation

"After its own sign, the next best place for a planet to be is in its sign of exaltation. In symbolic terms this is comparable to being an honoured guest in someone else's home. There is not the same level of freedom or strength as when a planet is in its own sign but it shows a dignified position, often indicating a person of respect or rank" http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig3.html


Having a 'vacation home' is indicative of neither dignity nor rank
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  #28  
Unread 01-03-2013, 04:10 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

The exaltation rulers are much older than the domicile rulers. In the Thema Mundi, the Hellenistic diagram for understanding astrology, we can clearly see in antiquity that each planet, excluding the lights, has more than one "home" or domicile. Though I quite agree with you that each planet did have a "preferred" home, there still is a very strong case to be made for a planet being able to feel quite comfy in more than one place.

Ben Dykes, in his Introductions to Traditional Astrology, translates several Persian astrologers on the concepts of planetary relationships. There is an entire chapter dedicated to each of the methods of "pushing." As well, other written source material for explanations of these concepts and their us is widely available.

Kaiousei no Senshi has also linked to a thread elsewhere that will help in understanding, and shows that what is being defined here as "pushing the dignity" isn't how it's traditionally applied.

I have not listened to the Rob Hand lecture. While I do not doubt that he speaks of pushing, I'm not so sure I would put my faith in my understanding of pushing, or reception of any sort, in one 30 minute spot in one lecture by one astrologer. For one thing, I would want to try it out for myself. And see what other sources have to say, so that I could make sure that I thoroughly understand it.
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  #29  
Unread 01-03-2013, 09:08 PM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

No, if what senshui says is true then the matters of a house/sign are greatly defeated or at least severely challenged simply by having the main or domicile lord in fall or detriment and that's just nonesense, all the dispostors of the planets involved with the ruling planet of the house have to be considered. No the idea of many dispostors/final dispositor is an ancient idea and its just the opposite of what senshui is saying, it was way more complex then the modern take on it (although ancient astrologers didn't write out long dispositor trees because they knew who they were writing for weren't childern they had to spell everything out in full detail for) with exaltation dispositors and triplicity dispositors (although only the domicile counts as final dispositor because its said sign/houses main focus point).

Last edited by juicey J.; 01-03-2013 at 09:16 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 01-03-2013, 09:25 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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No, if what senshui says is true then the matters of a house/sign are greatly defeated simply by having the main or domicile lord in fall or detriment and that's just nonesense, all the dispostors of the planets involved with the ruling planet of the house have to be considered. No the idea of many dispostors/final dispositor is an ancient idea and its just the opposite of what senshui is saying, it was way more complex (although ancient astrologers didn't write out long dispositor trees because they knew who they were writing for weren't childern they had to spell everything out in full detail for) with exaltation dispositors and triplicity dispositors.
I'm terribly confused. I don't think that's what Kaiousei no Senshi was saying at all. And it seems as if you've gone from saying that reception can only happen if planets are in each other's domiciles, or in their own domiciles while receiving another planet in their domicile, to now agreeing that reception can happen in many ways.

And you'll have to refer me back to where anyone talked about the houses they rule...though the part I bolded is mostly correct. But yes, there are other dignities to be considered, as well as other rulers. For example, Venus in Virgo is in fall, but in a day chart from 8* to 17* Venus gets term and triplicity rulership. This means she is dignified and better able to see to the matters of her houses. Further, Mercury as exaltation ruler should be taken into consideration.

Could you provide a reference in the literature for the idea of a final dispositor? Personally I don't think it's way more complex that what is being explained here...and I think what's being explained here is perhaps complex enough.
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  #31  
Unread 01-03-2013, 09:45 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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No, if what senshui says is true then the matters of a house/sign are greatly defeated or at least severely challenged simply by having the main or domicile lord in fall or detriment and that's just nonesense,
On the contrary, IF that is what Kaiousei No Senshi said then he IS correct BECAUSE according to medieval astrologers

...
'the matters of a house' ARE 'greatly defeated or at least severely challenged simply by having the main or domicile lord in fall or detriment'

That's why medieval astrologers examine the location and aspects of ALL the rulers of a house - to discover whether or not the matters of that particular house may be remedied or alleviated by the influence of the Exalted ruler - if there is one. Not all signs have exalted rulers


However what IS nonsense certainly within the context of the idea of medieval astrology is the idea that a 'sign' itself can somehow 'be defeated'
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 01-04-2013 at 02:25 PM. Reason: clarity
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  #32  
Unread 01-04-2013, 05:34 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Personally (my opinion) I believe this issue has been run into the ground by Traditionalist dogmatists, in a manner similar to what we find in mainstream Vedic astrology, with the splitting of hairs relative to ramifications of definitions and variants of definitions of the descriptive terms used by the various authors. This is why I personally have adopted a simplified approach to consideration of these matters regarding dignity, exaltation, etc.

One thing I do believe: I believe the signs condition and modulate the expression of planets in them, not the other way around: in other words, I believe the signs "rule" (so to speak) the planets, and that while the planets do also reciprocally influence the signs, the strength is from above (sign) downward (planet in sign) Now, this is (historically) a minority view (although it dominated early Hellenist thought, eg Manilius, and also much of Islamic transitional era astrological thought, eg, v. Ibn Arabi's "Mystical Astrology", also the Harranian astrological works of Thabit ibn Qurra, and it also is still dominant in Jaimini Vedic astrology)

The planetocentric outlook, developing early on (Firmicus Maternus, Parasara) came to dominate astrological thought (Western and mainstream Vedic), so planets became the "lords" of pretty much everything astrological, the "power centers", and this perspective really accelerated during Western Medieval, Renaissance and Reformation times, and continued to do so in the development of Modernist astrological thought and practice.

My opinions here are, of course, highly controversial and I certainly do not want to try to pawn them off as "true", or to have any one "believe in them"; just thought I'd pass them on, from one who has been involved in thinking about, and studying about, and testing about these matters, for many years...

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  #33  
Unread 01-04-2013, 03:52 PM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Yes jupiter asc a planet ruling a house in determint or fall can severely challenge (yes the ancients believed this but they also believed there were exceptions and you even pointed out one) the affairs of said house however, also having said planets sign lord dignified can help to elevate matters this is also an ancient idea yes so is the exaltation lord being strong. The domicile is the main house of sign and acts as the final dispositor in whatever chain of planets disposit into or the concept of domicile loses much of its meaning and purpose.

Last edited by juicey J.; 01-04-2013 at 03:55 PM.
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  #34  
Unread 01-04-2013, 05:07 PM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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Yes jupiter asc a planet ruling a house in determint or fall can severely challenge (yes the ancients believed this but they also believed there were exceptions and you even pointed out one) the affairs of said house however, also having said planets sign lord dignified can help to elevate matters this is also an ancient idea yes so is the exaltation lord being strong. The domicile is the main house of sign and acts as the final dispositor in whatever chain of planets disposit into or the concept of domicile loses much of its meaning and purpose.
According to medieval astrological practice planets may be in a state or condition known as 'Mutual Reception.

As time passed, centuries later, the modern idea of 'a final dispositor' emerged. Clearly though, when any of the planets in a natal chart are in Mutual Reception THEN there can be no modern 'final dispositor'

The fact there is not always a (modern) 'final dispositor' in a natal chart DOES NOT however mean that allegedly 'the concept of domicile loses much of its meaning and purpose'

Medieval practice connected to 'domiciles' works well and has done for approximately fourteen hundred years and continues to do so - despite there being no (modern) 'final dispositor' in many natal charts
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 01-05-2013 at 08:24 AM. Reason: clarity
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  #35  
Unread 01-05-2013, 02:59 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

I was talking about final dispositor as a general concept of course not all charts have one that's beside the main point. so the medieval astrologers agree with me there is a planetary chain with the domicile planet as final dispositor also i was talking about final dispositor in a more general way with a domicile planet as final dispositor of a small chain of 3 or so planets , i think in order for a planet to truly be a final dispositor it must have all the other planets disposit into it via domicile lordship. Also, with more then one domicile planet there can't be a final dispositor in the truest definition of said term.

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  #36  
Unread 01-05-2013, 04:25 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

I only know most things about hellenestic via reading bits of valens, dorotheus, and ptolemy and the rest of such along with medieval astrology is mostly second hand knowledge. While we're on the subject of lordships and receptions did ancient astrologers think it meant something or anything in particular if a planet was in domicile with none of the other planets disposting via domicile into it? For example mars in aries with none of the other planets in aries or scorpio, also would it mean anything further if no planets are in capricorn?

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  #37  
Unread 01-05-2013, 06:50 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

I've never seen ancient or medieval astrology using dispositor trees, juicey. The Greeks had a system of ranking planetary power sort of along the lines of a captain, the first mate, and so forth in terms of which planets were most useful in managing the chart, going by the metaphor of a ship. The medievalists used almutens to determine planetary strength. Of course, one of those planets might be a final dispositor in a chart, but it isn't necessarily the case.

You can read delineations from Hellenistic times. In general, it would be a favourable sign for nothing to conjunct Mars in Aries - there are a few exceptions to that, but Mars is a malefic so you don't want him close to much. Ditto a generally good thing to have nothing in Capricorn when Mars is in Aries, because the signs are square to each other. It would also make a great deal of difference if you were looking at a day chart or a night chart.

Aries and Scorpio are disjunct, so any planets in those two signs wouldn't aspect each other anyway, at least not in the traditional sense of the word, to see or to view.
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  #38  
Unread 01-05-2013, 07:20 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juicey J. View Post
No, if what senshui says is true then the matters of a house/sign are greatly defeated or at least severely challenged simply by having the main or domicile lord in fall or detriment and that's just nonesense, all the dispostors of the planets involved with the ruling planet of the house have to be considered. No the idea of many dispostors/final dispositor is an ancient idea and its just the opposite of what senshui is saying, it was way more complex then the modern take on it (although ancient astrologers didn't write out long dispositor trees because they knew who they were writing for weren't childern they had to spell everything out in full detail for) with exaltation dispositors and triplicity dispositors (although only the domicile counts as final dispositor because its said sign/houses main focus point).
Hm...

"Note also what planet is located in the house or the terms of which particular planet and, if your planet is located in the house of another, look at the ruler of that house to see which houses of the chart it is in…for if the ruler of the sign is well located, that planet about which we are inquiring also shares in a part of the good fortune of the host’s joy. But if the ruler of the sign is dejected in any way, that planet about which we are inquiring, even though placed in a fortunate house, will be hindered by the dejection of that other planet which is the ruler of the sign. This also you can easily observe from human behavior. If you enter anyone’s home by invitation and the master of the house has just been blessed with an increase in good fortune, you too become a participant in his good fortune, for you share in the happiness of the good fortune of your host. But if the host is suffering from miserable poverty and is embroiled in the wretched accidents of misfortune, you make yourself also a partner in his grief and trouble, and the adversity in which you share overwhelms you to." -Firmicus Maternus

As you can see, the idea of a planet's dispositor having a direct effect on it and severely harming it if ill placed is not "nonsense", it's pretty established tradition (of course that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to bonify a planet that suffers from counteraction). You'll also note in this quote that no reference is given to a third planet, just the first planet that we're inquiring about and it's domicile lord. So, if the idea of dispositor trees is ancient like you claim, Maternus (who wrote in the 4th century) should have known about them and told us to consider them in turn. Your whole argument rests on the idea of "Well, they didn't tell us NOT to" and that's pretty nonsensical. If we're going to form astrological techniques based off of what the ancients didn't explicity tell us, then we're going to be here for a long time coming up with whatever we want.
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  #39  
Unread 01-05-2013, 08:28 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

I never used an ancient didn't tell us not to argument ever, i used an ancient astrologers implied such argument, big difference! You in your original post to me said the ancient astrologers said look to a sign/houses lord and that's it which, says or implies if a house/sign's lord is determint, fall or pergrine (which, happens well over half the time) then the matters of a house are almost totally defeated without the slightest possible exception which, is TOTAL NONSENSE! rather or not you meant as much isn't the point in my mind and understanding being whatever that's worth, that's what you said implied and i know you don't want to imply as much because you don't think this way about said subject. Also, i already more or less admitted a houses lord being in a sign of debility can severely challenge the affairs of a house but that what i meant to say was there being no exception to such is what was nonsense, read my all my posts carefully before responding, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I have nothing personally against, respect you as a fellow human being, and want to be as peacefully as possible but you but your starting to get on my nerves.

Olivia the ancients had the concept of final dispostiors which, means they believed in long dispositor chains they just didn't feel the need to explicitly write them out.

Also, a house can have at least two dispostiors an domicile as well as an exaltation , and in turn said one or two planet's planetary lords being dignified (although if said dignified planets are afflicted by malefics or in the evil houses of the 6th, 8th, or 12th or worse a combination of such they can't do much to aid) and/or said planets being in friendly aspect to the benefics can help to counter things if they are in a sign of deblity although difficulties will still to a somewhat lesser degree arise due to the deblity.

Last edited by juicey J.; 01-05-2013 at 10:03 AM. Reason: Inflamming and personal attacks
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  #40  
Unread 01-05-2013, 09:04 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Remember all,

It is okay to disagree but personal attacks will not be tolerated.

TK
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  #41  
Unread 01-05-2013, 09:19 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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Remember all,

It is okay to disagree but personal attacks will not be tolerated.

TK
Yes but we should be free to be honest to another poster about how a poster makes us feel, so long as we don't use cuss words, slander, threats, or name calling and i never used any of such in my post even before you edited it, all you did was tone it down a bit. Okay maybe i went a bit overboard but that was an honest expression of how i felt.

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  #42  
Unread 01-05-2013, 09:31 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Just don't make it personal. Debates can get heated and that is expected, but it does no one good to point fingers, yell, or personally goad. It only causes everyone to dig into their own opinions deeper and more firmly... and its not allowed by forum rules.

I can see the dilemma here on this thread. Most of the Traditional Forum uses direct links to verify information. You mention we have to extrapolate out sometime what is not said, and this is true.... but unless there is a direct link, it is still conjecture and can not be seen as an absolute truth. At this point, if the same back and forth keeps up with the same arguments, I will probably close the thread as there is no impasse and all that needs to be said has been. At some point we have to agree to disagree, because no minds are going to be changed.
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  #43  
Unread 01-05-2013, 09:35 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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Just don't make it personal. Debates can get heated and that is expected, but it does no one good to point fingers, yell, or personally goad. It only causes everyone to dig into their own opinions deeper and more firmly... and its not allowed by forum rules.

I can see the dilemma here on this thread. Most of the Traditional Forum uses direct links to verify information. You mention we have to extrapolate out sometime what is not said, and this is true.... but unless there is a direct link, it is still conjecture and can not be seen as an absolute truth. At this point, if the same back and forth keeps up with the same arguments, I will probably close the thread as there is no impasse and all that needs to be said has been. At some point we have to agree to disagree, because no minds are going to be changed.

Problem is i took senshi's last post towards me personally and i found its tone to be judgmental and accusing and it hurt my feelings rather or not it was meant this way isn't the point, the point is this is how it made me feel, let me make it clear im not trying to out him or accuse him. And i feel like almost everyone including you is picking on me although i do agree my post went a bit overboard before you edited it.

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  #44  
Unread 01-05-2013, 10:15 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
Saturn in Aries, Venus in Capricorn, Mars in Libra. Two of the planets are debilitated. However, if you switch them between the signs trying to give them the same dignity or debility (there is mutual reception by debility, although it is not commonly mentioned, from what I understand)
Of the three planets chosen by the OP, Mars in Libra is debilitated by being in detriment, while Saturn is debilitated by being in Fall in Aries and
Venus in Capricorn has only dignity by Triplicity and Face but would otherwise be Peregrine in a day chart if located beyond the first 6
º of Capricorn

Mutual Reception - whether the planets concerned are in exaltation, domicile or detriment - remains Mutual Reception: meaning two planets in mutual reception are friendly towards each other.

HOWEVER

Focusing on two of the three particular examples chosen by the OP then:

Saturn in Aries is Peregrine unless located in the last 10º of Aries


Mars in Libra is also Peregrine unless located in the last 10º of Libra

And if or when both planets are in a Peregrine degree, then Mutual reception between those two planets is unlikely to be of much assistance to either
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  #45  
Unread 01-05-2013, 10:29 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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Originally Posted by wintersprite1 View Post
Just don't make it personal. Debates can get heated and that is expected, but it does no one good to point fingers, yell, or personally goad. It only causes everyone to dig into their own opinions deeper and more firmly... and its not allowed by forum rules.

I can see the dilemma here on this thread. Most of the Traditional Forum uses direct links to verify information. You mention we have to extrapolate out sometime what is not said, and this is true.... but unless there is a direct link, it is still conjecture and can not be seen as an absolute truth. At this point, if the same back and forth keeps up with the same arguments, I will probably close the thread as there is no impasse and all that needs to be said has been. At some point we have to agree to disagree, because no minds are going to be changed.

What do you mean your going to probably close the thread, just because things got a little heated (granted you can close a thread without cause or warning as you have said right but that's hardly the point) after in the same breath saying your open to debate here....... Doesn't senshi have the right to at least respond to what i last said?
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  #46  
Unread 01-05-2013, 10:33 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Let me say this plainly Yes a plantary lord in debility can (key word) severely challenge the affairs of a house but all the planetary lords involved as well the planetary aspects to said planet must be looked at before making final judgement. I thought i made this clear from the get go when i brought this up but apparently some took what i said the wrong way, oh well......

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  #47  
Unread 01-05-2013, 10:42 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Jupiterasc, according to many authorities mutual reception by domicile or exaltation cancels out peregrine.
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  #48  
Unread 01-05-2013, 10:48 AM
juicey J. juicey J. is offline
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Also,to let everyone who reads said thread know, a mixed reception which, is planet A being in planet b's sign of domicile and planet b being being in planet A's sign of exaltation isn't a mutual reception.

Last edited by juicey J.; 01-05-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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  #49  
Unread 01-05-2013, 10:49 AM
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
...Two planets in opposition will not be in reception because they already have the same dignity and take the path of least resistance (astrology is all about paths of least resistance) and not receive anything. Of course, to be logical there will be some sort of reception, but it is not quite as strong
As an example, although Gemini opposes Sagittarius, nevertheless if located at the relevant degrees, then Mercury and Jupiter could be in mutual reception by term and face therefore it is possible for planets in opposition to receive each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
...There is no mutual opposition. Or is this a legit idea at all? It might not be...
On the contrary opposition is by definition mutual i.e. the two planets are opposing each other
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Re: Mutual Reception Valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC
And if or when both planets are in a Peregrine degree, then Mutual reception between those two planets is unlikely to be of much assistance to either
The hang-ups over this idea is mostly going to come down to what individuals believe occurs during mutual reception. A popular (albeit modern) idea is that planets in mutual reception "exchange signs". Of course this would imply that a planet can be freed from its debility through a mutual reception, but that isn't quite what's going on. I also feel like many people consider mutual receptions as a sort of "general feel" for planets at any given time. This also isn't how they're supposed to be used. Only within the context of their relationship does mutual reception bring about anything satisfactory.

For example, the current Mars/Saturn Square. Typically, this is considered a very difficult aspect and if your horary or nativity has this configuration, it's going to be difficult for them to bring the matter to perfection. However, with the mutual reception, it makes it easier for those two planets to overcome the Square and achieve perfection of the matter. Of course, it's still two malefics and they're still Square, but hey! It's better than nothing!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicy J.
Also,to let everyone who reads said thread know, a mixed reception which, is planet A being in planet b's sign of domicile and planet b being being in planet A's sign of exaltation isn't a mutual reception.
No, even that is mutual reception. Planet A and planet B are still receiving each other simultaneously (which is the definition of mutual reception), they just feel differently towards one another.
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