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Unread 02-13-2013, 03:21 AM
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Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Diurnal or nocturnal?

Pluto is the modern ruler of Scorpio. Is he masculine or feminine? Receptive or emitting? Hot, cold, wet or dry? Of the day sect or the night?

The same for Neptune and Uranus?

The traditional rulership schema allows for all of these ideas, including sect--so if we are to consider these planets as having the ability to have predominance in the chart, as well as be final dispositors or chart rulers...how do we fit them into this model?

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Unread 02-13-2013, 03:53 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

My opinion is that we should leave the whole system models as they have been developed (such as Traditionalist or Vedic dignity/rulership, etc models) alone and not try to alter them to accomodate any other factors than those which were used in developing those models.
However, this does not mean that we cannot evaluate other astrological factors (such as the outers) using various criteria: we can apply these other astrological factors seperately from any unified whole system model we might decide to use, in order to gain additional insights into the chart under analysis.

I do not believe that the outers "rule" (disposit) any sign: however I do believe that the outers each have a special resonance with certain signs: Pluto for Scorpio (and I believe Pluto for Aries as well), Neptune for Pisces; I question the affinity of Uranus and Aquarius, and consider it more likely resonant with Capricorn (as Charles Carter came to believe), and perhaps also with Gemini.

Regarding polarity ("masculine", "feminine"), I have become convinced that Uranus is + polarity, Neptune - polarity, and Pluto mixed (androgynous, same as Vedic astrology regards the nature of Saturn)

I believe the outers represent mixtures of the 7 fundamental Cosmic principles (which are each completely represented in their "pureness" by the appropriate "traditional" 7 planets) I believe Uranus to represent a mixture of Mars and Mercury; Neptune a mixture of Venus and Jupiter; Pluto I am not completely certain about: Mars is certainly present therein, but I think I see a co-mixture with Saturn and maybe also with Solar qualities as well.

I consider Uranus emittive, Neptune receptive; again, I am unsure regarding Pluto (although I lean toward considering it as emittive)

Elemental qualities: here I also think the outers represent co-mixtures of elements, rather than pure elements (as in the case of the 7 traditional planets): Uranus = air/fire, Neptune water/air, Pluto fire/air/earth

...anyway, such are my opinions regarding "classifying" the outers...
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Unread 02-17-2013, 04:26 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I consider Uranus emittive, Neptune receptive; again, I am unsure regarding Pluto (although I lean toward considering it as emittive)

Elemental qualities: here I also think the outers represent co-mixtures of elements, rather than pure elements (as in the case of the 7 traditional planets): Uranus = air/fire, Neptune water/air, Pluto fire/air/earth

...anyway, such are my opinions regarding "classifying" the outers...
This is interesting. So if we follow that thought a bit, we could come to the idea that Uranus would belong to the day/diurnal sect, Neptune to the nocturnal, and Pluto might be defined similar to Mercury? As in his sect would be determined in relation to the Sun?
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Unread 02-17-2013, 09:42 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Having a model is the key. SEE ATTACHED THUMBNAIL FOR DIAGRAM.

Each and every single thing is balanced by another. Or one group of things is balanced by another group of things. Nothing actually exists in itself, its qualitites only come from being the opposite or complement of something else and vice versa, so they exist because of each other.

And you cannot have only positive and negative you must also have neutral which is the equal blend of both and is at the same time neither one nor the other. (The atom is an example of this principle with its positive protons, negative electrons, and neutral neutrons - as within so without.)

In the model attached there is positive, male, white, light, transparency, and weightlessness represented by the Sun or crown chakra outside the body/wheel at the top. Air and fire elements at the top are weightless. Sun is young energy.
Negative, female, black, dark, solidity, and density is represented by the Earth brama chakra outside the body/wheel at the bottom. Earth and water elements at the bottom are dense. The entire whole consists of four elements joined and makes up the 'one' fifth element. Earth is old energy.

Everything in between the black and the white is the neutral, child, grey, and the halfway blend of black and white, or of above and below. That grey halfway place is the wheel or body of existence with the six chakras or six planets inside the body. There are the four elements, two from above and two from below, and these four elements are multiplied by the three expressions of positive negative and neutral to make twelve - the number of permutations or signs. The six colours of the chakras refer to the six colours contained within white and also the six colours contained within black (again this gives twelve signs), these six colours are three primary and three secondary colours. Each of the six inside planets has to have two sides, one light and one dark because it has taken half its qualities from the Sun and half from the Earth, therefore traditionally one planet rules two signs.

Unlike the more pure energies of the six colours of the inside planets that are a simple blend of above and below, the outer planets are blends of inner planets which means that outer planets are blends of blends and they rule a set of signs. Although they are blends of blends, the outers still follow the same rules of balance, therefore one has to be positive or personal, one negative or interpersonal, and one neutral or outerpersonal. They also have to be equally spaced at three points apart from each other to balance each other out. The wheel is divided into three sections: the four primary personal signs (white), the four secondary interpersonal signs (black), and the four tertiary outerpersonal signs (grey).

Uranus is a blend of the two neutral planets Mercury and Jupiter. In the diagram the symbol of Uranus is grey to represent neutral.
Neptune is a blend of the two female planets Moon and Venus. In the diagram the symbol of Neptune is black to represent female.
Pluto is a blend of the two male planets Mars and Saturn. In the diagram the symbol of Pluto is white to represent male.

***Notice that when the white male Sun above and black female Earth below is blended as it is so within the grey area or wheel, then positions of male and female within the wheel become reversed. The same rule of position reversal is universal.***

Within the wheel or body or grey area, now male planets are at the bottom and female planets are at the top. And Sun is young energy and Earth is old energy, so within the wheel those qualities of young and old become intermixed resulting in two types of female planet and two types of male planet - young Yin (Venus) and old yin (Moon), young yang (Mars) and old yang (Saturn).

Neutral planets blend male and female and are mutable, so there are two types, one transmutable to male and the other transmutable to female - Mercury is transmutable to female because it is placed in between and turns towards/into female signs/planets in each direction on both the left and right sides of the wheel; Jupiter is transmutable to male because it is placed in between and turns towards/into male signs/planets in each direction on both the left and right sides of the wheel.

In the case of the outer planets a polarity position reversal also happens - Uranus as the blend of two neutral planets takes a position at the top of the wheel opposite the grey section of four neutral outerpersonal signs. Pluto as the blend of two male planets takes its position on the left opposite the white section of four personal signs. Neptune as the blend of two female planets takes its position on the right opposite the black section of interpersonal signs.

Everything follows the same universal patterns and rules of balance.
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Unread 02-18-2013, 03:34 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
This is interesting. So if we follow that thought a bit, we could come to the idea that Uranus would belong to the day/diurnal sect, Neptune to the nocturnal, and Pluto might be defined similar to Mercury? As in his sect would be determined in relation to the Sun?
These could well be valid deductions, regarding the outers relative to a determination of "sect".
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Unread 02-18-2013, 04:34 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

I think the outers tend to be more difficult to classify as their natures are not 'normal'. Which is why if a personal planet has an important aspect to an outer it can cause the person to be way beyond their time, brilliant and not fit in (or just outright 'crazy') because the natures of these planets are more alien.
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Unread 02-26-2013, 10:41 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Uranus is a neuter or eunuch. It sacrifices physical fertility for mental fertility. It is yang and masculine, but castrated. The element of Uranus is lightning or electricity.

Neptune is a cross-dresser. It is the very essence of appearing other than what it is. The element of Neptune is vapor, fog, or mist. It is yin and wet.

Pluto is androgynous, leaning more toward the feminine side. It is yin and yang.

On an overt level the element of Pluto is magma/lava(fire) and ice.
On a covert level the element of Pluto is earth.
On a most essential level, the element of Pluto is that of intermolecular force. Are intermolecular forces wet or dry? I'm not so sure they can be defined that way. It seems, rather, that intermolecular forces define the wetness or dryness of a thing by virtue of their activites.

Lava is liquified solid. Ice is solidified liquid. Lava is wet. Ice is "dry" until conditions are changed or acted upon by an outside source(say, a warm, living finger). Lava hardens to be dry. Ice melts to be wet. So it is with Pluto.
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Unread 02-26-2013, 10:52 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

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Uranus is a neuter or eunuch. It sacrifices physical fertility for mental fertility. It is yang and masculine, but castrated. The element of Uranus is lightning or electricity.
I agree with this. I have also said Uranus is neutral planet. The lightening electricity of Uranus is also enlightenment (why it is placed top of chart connecting to crown chakra in my diagram).

But the violence of Pluto indicates male. And the softness of Neptune indicates female.
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Unread 02-26-2013, 11:26 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Pluto is death and regeneration. One great example of this is the forest floor, an interface between death and life. The forest floor is littered with layers of dead and decaying leaves, dead and fallen logs, perhaps even an animal corpse here and there. Here, amidst all the death fungi, bacteria, and other microorganisms teem with life. Generally unseen to the human eye, they convert these dead substances into humus. The humus provides nutrients upon which the plants of the forest grow. This is the unseen fertility of pluto. The forest cannot fuction without all this death. An old growth forest(the archetype of a forest) is characterized by the presence of dead standing trees and large fallen logs. The forest is the work of feminine principles(ie: mother nature).

Masculine energy does not have the power to create in such a way.

Pluto is like an iceberg. Only the tip is seen above the surface, but much more lies beneath the waves. It is famous for destruction because it sacrifices a good reputation to do the work that nobody else wants to do or be known for. The work, however is essential. Maintaining the cycles of endings and beginnings allows life to take place.

I do see your point about Neptune. Neptune is rather yin. But for some reason I hesitate to say it is feminine. This may not be rational, I know.

It is said that Neptune is the higher octave of Venus and as we all know, Venus is feminine. It's a safe deduction.

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Unread 02-28-2013, 10:10 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Neptune is higher octave of Venus as you say. Therefore I do see it as feminine, and I tend to go for logical deduction being that I am a Virgo. But I think it also blends the Moon and Venus, a rather enhanced and greater version of the feminine, compassion and love at its fullest.

Uranus is said to be the higher octave of Mercury and therefore neutral. But I think it also blends Marcury and Jupiter, being a rather enhanced and larger version of Mercury mentality which includes the all knowing of Jupiter, so this planet means enlightenment and the electric energy that travels up the spine towards the crown chakra.

Pluto is higher octave of Mars, a male planet. Saturn is also male planet. I see Mars and Saturn blended here as both a creative and destructive force at the same time such as the symbol of the phoenix. Saturn brings the end and Mars brings the beginning.
(You may like to read what I have written here about Scorpio with Mars as ruler.)

You must always have a positive, negative, and neutral. Like the atom, as within so without.
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Unread 02-28-2013, 11:45 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Neptune symbolizes unreality. Sexual polarity and dimorphism are phenomena related to reality. Souls may be yin or yang, but they are without sexual organs in themselves. The study of biology entails a physical body to study. A soul may transmigrate from a male body to a female body and back again in an effort to balance or refine yin and yang principles within itself. Neptune is out of body. It is outside of time and space. How can something outside of these concepts have a sex? In the highest sense of Neptune as representative of spiritual illumination, it cannot have a sex.

Because Neptune is ruler of things that are unclear, illusory, delusory, ill-defined, and even imaginatory(Robert Hand, Horoscope Symbols, pg. 75), and because in its lower manifestation, Neptune manifests as deception of both self and others, and because the lower octave of Neptune is what is the most commonly manifested representation of Neptune within human culture of this particular time period(as it is difficult to master, or properly navigate without getting lost), I earlier stated that Neptune was a cross-dresser.

Neptune is like a masquerade ball, it is the very act of appearing other than what one really is. Neptune is kind of like a transvestite in that it has difficulty coming to terms with the reality of its given biological orientation or physical form.

So in a higher sense, Neptune would likely be epicene, or sexless(I use this term to differentiate between the word androgynous, which entails a blending of the characteristics of both sexes, preferrably to a somewhat equal extent), but in a common sense, neptune would likely be a woman pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman if reduced to the scale of masculinity or feminimity. Or a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man. It is not the form that matters, it is the act of pretending that is important.

If looked at from an atomic level, Neptune is not likely to be found within positive, negative, or neutral spectrum. That is the spectrum of reality. Neptune is of unreality. Anti-matter, rather than any polarity found within the realm of matter would be the domain of Neptune. Must we not forget, that the subatomic particles have further been divided into quarks, leptons, bose-einstein particles and whatnot. Just as astrology is updated with the discovery of planetary bodies, the understanding of polarity must be updated with the discovery that subatomic particles are subject to further division.

Regarding Mars as bringing the beginning. Mars certainly initiates action, but it's aim is to conquer. The aim of Pluto is to transform. If Pluto were to be the higher octave of Mars, with perhaps violent means(similarity to mars) to acheive transformation(unique to pluto), perhaps the polarity of mars has gone through a transformation in itself in order to become Pluto. Just as a soul may transmigrate from male to female in order to learn the creative principle, mars may have transmigrated from the male polarity to the female polarity to likewise transform death into life, an act of creation. Again. Men are not capable of creation other than mental. Pluto is capable of creation and is not dependent upon mental means to do so.

As a planet increases in octave, it undergoes transmutations, just as a human or a soul would. It is not unreasonable to assume that as the octaves of the planets increase their polarity will have a corresponding shift or alteration suitable to the energy involved and its place within the octave.

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Unread 03-01-2013, 07:38 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Aries and Mars is all about being number 1 or beginnings and creation and pioneering or being first. Aries is everything about Mars that you see outwardly, the conscious side, where you see the actively competitive side of Mars.

So too is procreation a beginning that is equally all about being number 1 when you pass on your genes or the essence of yourself to ensure that 'you' continue, here Mars has a selfish motive that is not outwardly obvious. Mars via Scorpio is the inwardly competitive side of Mars that is not apparent, it is the 'you' that is hidden or secret where being number 1 is priority but in a passive and unconscious way, 'you' are held back inside the record of 'you' that is Fixed into your DNA and that wants to be expressed. Scorpio is the interactive/interpersonal water sign where fluids of the body are shared in the interests of procreation of self. The glyph of Scorpio shows the coils of the snake with its energy as a coiled spring, and with the arrow showing that energy is released (through the male sperm that carries the DNA).

Mars=beginnings combining with Saturn=endings makes the complete male entity with a beginning and end. Destruction and creation in one is like Pluto.

...........

Neptune is receptive, loving and compassionate combining Venus and Moon, as together they make the ultimate expression of soft and female. This 'softness' may be described as blurred, fuzzy, hazy, unclear, illusory, delusory, intangible, formless, indistinct, and ill-defined, these words are the ultimate ways to describe softness not just in a physical sense. Its qualities are so soft you can't grab hold of Neptune.

...........

(PS. Before you had edited your post you had written "Your planetary blends to describe the outer planets are very useful, and indeed fitting". I like that comment, thank you. And thanks for the discussion.)
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Unread 03-02-2013, 06:20 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Yes, I like your posts. You are intelligent and put thought into what you say. You are open to debate, and by debating as we are we are exchanging valuable information, whether or not we agree in the end. Most people want agreement, but how can people grow without assessing the information of others and discussing their own thoughts on the subject? Agreement is good for avoiding conflict, but I feel that some are able to get along without agreeing. I like your style.

And yes, I do feel that your planetary descriptions are fitting as a guide. But I also feel that one must not mistake the map for the terrain. However, I am touched that you caught that and appreciated it. I'm apologize if editing that out seemed rude.

Now yes, Aries is number one, but Mars is not a pioneer. Mars is the force of action. It sets into motion what has already been started. Mars requires direction in order to apply its force, and it requires a target. Mars can work singly or alone, but sports, ruled by Mars, are most often an act of teamwork. Even when there is no team involved, two opposing forces are required. The concepts of winning and loosing are an aspect of Mars. No matter what anybody tells a sportsman(or woman), not everybody is a winner in sports. The sun initiates the force, mars enacts it. The action must be strategic(saturn) in order to be successful(jupiter). Mars can never be a singular force. It can manifest in individualistic manners, but it needs an opposing force in order to act. It is as simple as the contraction and relaxation of a muscle. If the these two forces do not work in harmony the muscle either atrophies or locks up, both symptoms indicative of an imbalance in mars energy, one too little, and one too much. The ideal state of a planetary energy is a state of balance. Mars cannot acheive balance through singularity.

Aries is number one, yes, but it starts and ends at that. Aries is the baby of the zodiac. Aries does not create, it is the product of creation. Aries is not the sperm fertilizing the egg. It is the the newly born infant. An infant cannot create. It has yet to undergo puberty. Many Aries tend to be asocial. Not antisocial, but "asocial". Put in a different light, Aries can be so self-involved that a conversation with them can be like witnessing a monologue. Some Aries talk about the things they know, their interests, for hours on end, while others favorite subject is themselves. Nonetheless, it can be hard to get a word in edge-wise, which tends to alienate the audience. Not because they are overly social, but because they are underly social. They have yet to learn how to listen very well, or consider the words of others. That's where the head-strong part comes in.

Now the act of creation is when two become one. Two human beings make one human being. Two sets of chromosomes are passed on to the fetus to make a unique individual. The DNA is comprised of a double helix, also seen in the sign of the caduceus, AKA, the staff of Hermes. The glyph for scorpio in no way resembles the double helix. DNA is represented by a different planet, but I do not want to go into that now.

The outer planets are not exact duplicates of the inner planets. If they were, we wouldn't need them. Likewise, if the outer planets were more intense versions of the inner planets, an exaltation of an inner planet would take the same form of the corresponding outer planet, but this too is not so. The higher octave theory is only meant to be a guide. The outer planets are meant to deliver energies that the inner planets cannot inherently contain. By the same token, there is an inherent difference between a sign and it's planetary ruler. Of course they have their affinities, but only by understanding their differences is it possible to delineate their specific actions.

The planet is the energy that is manifesting, the sign is how the energy manifests, and the house is where the energy manifests. Think of it in terms of light.

Random Planet #1 is represented by candle light.
Random Planet #2 is represent by a flashlight.
And Random Planet #3 is represented by an LED flashlight.
Each are different forms of light.

Now Random Sign #1 is a red filter or lens.
Random Sign #2 is a blue filter or lens.
Randome Sign #3 is a yellow filter or lens.

The lens is placed over the light source. The light travels through the lens and appears as the color of the lens. Where the colored light falls(what it lights up, that is) is the house. Have you ever used spectro-chrome color therapy? If you haven't research Dinshah. If you've ever used the color slides, you'll notice that in some cases the light filter of a given color(say indigo, or lemon...doesn't matter) will look different under different under different types of light: try looking at halogen, flouresent, LED, natural sunlight, and full spectrum light bulbs. Under the influences of certain form of light, the color will alter, while the slide remains the same.

Saturn is more about maintenance than endings. Saturn crystalizes that which has been set into effect. It gives structure and routine. Endings are the dismantling of structure. When it is time for the structure to come to an end, Uranus comes around and disturbs Saturn's routine, by bringing something new to the table, something that Saturn cannot fit into it's closed world view. Neptune follows the Uranian break of Saturn and generates uncertainty. Up until the new planets were recently discovered, Pluto was held responsible for completing the process. It marks the death of the old and the beginning of the new(for shadowed by Uranus). Now we have new planets, which we must master in the next step of our evolution. Before Uranus was discovered, Saturn was suitable as a "maleific" to indicate endings, but now that Saturn is not the last planet, it can no longer signify such. Conveniently, Pluto indicates death and resurrection. The ressurection takes us to the new planets.

Pluto can in no way be singular, because it indicates more than one thing. It indicates a process. Pluto is a fertile interface, where death and birth meet, like topsoil. Pluto is also a leaving of one cycle and going onto the next; a cross-roads. One may be apple to apply a number to a sign, to attempt assigning a number to a planet based on the number of the sign it rules is kind of like fitting the square peg into the round hole. If numbers must be assigned to planets at all, it would be through the use of numerology. For instance, the number 5 in numerological symbolism has much in common with the planet Mars.

Neither Mars or Aries have the creative capacities of Pluto. This difference is obvious in Martian types, Aries, and Plutonian types. The Plutonian types are the most creative of the aforementioned three. Just because something can be violent or forceful, does not mean it should be confused with Mars energies. Jupiter can be violent in its expansion. Saturn can be violent in its rigidity, unbendingness, or lack of ability to comprimise. Uranus can be violent by virtue of its disruption. Neptune can be violent in its deception.

Neptune is deceptive. Deception is not the ultimate expression of feminimity, nor is it unique to feminimity. Neptune is self-delusion. Anybody is capable of self-delusion. In Neptune's highest sense(which most people are unable to master), it is enlightenment. Enlightenment is available to any sex, whether male, female, or hermaphrodite.

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Unread 03-04-2013, 04:02 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

You guys are having so much fun with this that I don't want to interrupt the flow of the conversation. So instead I would like to interject a few questions and ideas...

Traditionally, we look at the sect of a planet to figure out in a nativity if it is working for or against the native. So keeping that in mind, how would you determine the sect of Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus? Remembering that there is a reason (receptive/feminine vs. emitting/masculine) for the placement of the planets in the rulership and sect relations of each planet. If we look at the models, the assignment of the traditional malefics, Saturn and Mars, have to do with making sure they are in the best position for the native. Saturn, as a cold and dry planet is assigned to the diurnal sect because that is the best place to "curb" his natural tendencies. The same for placing Mars in the nocturnal sect...it tempers his firey nature.

Keeping these ideas of gender and nature in mind, as well as the concepts of "higher" octaves, I think dr. farr has it better in his assignments. Because after all the supposition is said and done, when it comes to reading charts we have to make a delineation...is Uranus in hayz or halb?

There is a positive and a negative to every aspect. How would you as an astrologer specifically say which will happen to your client? Will she be caught in Neptune's disillusioning web, or will she be able to transcend it?
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Hi tsmall

I wondered why you hadn't added more comments about any posts after dr.farr's, I am pleased that you have returned. and any more input would be interesting on the content of the posts so far.

I think my first post answers many of your questions (#4 in this thread).

I don't analyse one planet or sign separately, it has to fit in with the whole. I provide a thumbnail diagram of planetary sign energy distribution which incorporates the chakras along the 'spine' or centre of the chart. This knowledge of which signs and associated ruling planet rules which chakra is ancient and goes back thousands of years. Also incorporated in the diagram are the eight ancient I-Ching trigrams placed next to the chakra that relates to each trigram. The traditional astrological planet/sign rulerships are used in the mandala, which correspond to the same energies of the chakras and the I-ching trigrams. Please note that the 3rd eye chakra is ruled by the Moon, not by the Sun, nor co-ruled by the Sun and Moon * - this leads to the conclusion that the Sun does not rule Leo as the laws must be consistent and fit with the whole. The concept and meaning of the trigram is fixed also and which planet/chakra each trigram relates to - the Sun is expressed at the top with three yang lines, therefore it cannot at the same time be the ruling planet for the 3rd eye chakra or that trigram.

In the diagram you can see that the male signs/planets (plus neutral into male) as a group are below the horizon, and the female signs/planets (plus neutral into female) are as a group above the horizon - that is what I mean by nocturnal and diurnal. This also corresponds to the mythology of Persephone who spends six months or signs in the light (a fitting place for female planets) above the horizon, then six months in the dark signs of the underworld below the horizon (a fitting place for male planets). The dividing points between Aries/Taurus and Libra/Scorpio are called the Gates of Hades (these points are marked by the Dragon's Head where the light signs begin and the Dragon's Tail where the dark signs begin).

But what you call diurnal and nocturnal I call active and passive**. One inner planet rules over two signs because it has an active side and a passive side, which are the mirror image of each other - notice how the left of the diagram is the mirror image of the right and vice versa? The active side is outwardly seen but the passive side is hidden and not so obvious.

So Libra is the active side of Venus and Taurus the passive, but they are both female. Or Gemini is the active side of Mercury while Virgo is the passive side, but they are both neutral. Or Aquarius is the active side of Saturn while Capricorn is the passive side, but they are both male. Aries is the active side of Mars while Scorpio is the passive side, but they are both male. Etc.

You can see that Air or Fire are always the active side of a planet while Earth or Water elements are always the passive side of a planet, and this is illustrated in the overall diagram by Air and Fire being at the very top with the Sun, and Earth and Water being at the very bottom with planet Earth.

As to your question of whether a planet's energy is advancing or receeding, as a whole male energy is advancing and female energy is receding, but there are subdivisions based on old or young energy. For example, the difference between the male energy of Saturn and the male energy of Mars is that one is the old yang and the other is the young yang, so the young energy of Mars advances while the old energy of Saturn is receding. The same rule applies to the young yin Venus energy advancing and the old yin Moon energy receding.

There is more than just male and female in the signs or planets, there are two neutral planets that rule over two signs each. Neutral energies blend male and female, old and young, advancing and receding. By definition something that takes neither one side nor the other is neutral. I describe this much more fully in my first post.

To answer your question about Pluto and Scorpio, Mars is the ruler of Scorpio (and of Aries at the same time) as it has been traditionally, and I explain why two posts above this one (post #12).

I answered the question of whether the outer planet genders were male, female or neutral in my previous posts and explained why in detail.

Uranus is a blend of the two neutral planets Mercury and Jupiter.
Neptune is a blend of the two female planets Moon and Venus.
Pluto is a blend of the two male planets Mars and Saturn.

To the question of sect and the outer planets, they are blends of planets and they 'rule' over a section of the chart rather than one sign - the wheel is divided into three sections: the four primary personal signs are shown by the white section, the four secondary interpersonal signs shown by the black section, and the four tertiary outerpersonal signs shown by the grey section. The mandala diagram shows where the outers connect to the wheel (and you can see how those positions have a relationship to the rulerships assigned by modern astrology) but without ruling one particular sign. I explained these positions in my first post and about energy or polarity position reversal in the wheel.

Pluto is personal and connects to the point where interpersonal changes to outerpersonal between Scorpio and Sagittarius.
Neptune is interpersonal and connects to the point where outerpersonal changes to personal between Pisces and Aries.
Uranus is outerpersonal and connects to the point where personal changes to interpersonal between Cancer and Leo.
The reason they each take a transformation point as their positions is that the outers are transformative planets and those transitions between the personal, interpersonal, or outerpersonal groups of signs are the transformation points of the wheel. I talk about the natures of each of the outers in my previous posts here.

If the question of planetary sect is determined by whether a planet is nocturnal or diurnal, male or female or neutral, young and advancing or old and receding, active or passive, then the mandala shows this distribution as a whole. It is clearer than a table, you can see the repeating patterns of balance and relationship. One universal pattern speaks more than an infinite number of words. The very positions and arrangements within the wheel are the clue to everything.

Delineation of an individual's chart is based onthe skill or art of the astrologer with a huge amount of criteria to consider and is not something covered here. That is how you use the rules and information provided by the insight of the mandala.

(*The ancients did have the Moon as co-ruler of Leo at one time, but ancient astrologers were not able to see the Sun as the greater whole ruling equally over all the signs because they did not know the Sun was at the centre of the solar system (they also thought the world was flat). And in trying to give the Sun more importance by not leaving it out of the sign rulership they actually demeaned the Sun making it rule only one sign. The energy of the whole Sun or the 'great yang' is represented by the three unbroken lines of the I-ching trigram and by the crown chakra outside the wheel or body above the top of the head, you cannot assign the entire qualities of the Sun to only one sign inside the wheel because the Sun created ALL the signs equaly and each of the 12 signs are exact 30o divisions of the Sun's one whole cycle, ALL signs are equally ruled by the Sun and they show the Sun's whole disected. There is no such thing as the Sun being debilitated or exalted or ruling any particular sign, because that would be like saying the Sun itself is debilitated when it is not. It is true you can say Leo has the qualities of the Sun, but so does every other sign, it is just that they have a different section of Sun qualities, and Cnacer is ruled by the Sun, Virgo is ruled by the Sun, Libra is ruled by the SUn, Capricorn is ruled by the Sun, etc...
**Traditional and modern astrologers often ignore to mention neutral energy evn though they recognise it exists - an example of this is labelling signs as only male and female signs around the wheel which is not correct, rather they are alternating active and passive signs.)
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Very interesting thoughts! I enjoyed reading this thread very much.
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Hi Lenzites

When Saturn crystalises it is the same as coming to a stop which is the same as ending. And with the structure of Saturn it is always the final and last or end structure when something has passed beyond change.


I didn't say that Scorpio glyph represented the DNA helix I said it was the sperm that contains the DNA. But as you already know the double helix is said to be related to the twin snakes of energy travelling through the chakras - the rod of the caduceus is a representation of the spine with the intertwined snakes representing the energy through the chakras, and each time the snakes intersect it shows a point at which there is a chakra.


(For the rest we are repeating ourselves, but thanks for the discussion, now I have run out of things to say.)

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Unread 03-10-2013, 05:24 PM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

A crystal is not ended until destroyed in some manner. Crystals are relatively stable compared to most earth matter. They do not degrade as easily as say wood or even metal, which rusts.

Once a crystal becomes a crystal it has not met its end, but its maturity. For a crystal that maturity lasts a very long time. And that's what crystalization is all about: staying power, stabilization. This is why insects trapped in amber stay preserved, also why flash frozen carcasses are well preserved, but once that "perfectly" ordered crystal barrier is broken, there is no more stability in the carcass. The ice melts, the amber is cracked and the carcass exposed to air, it starts to decompose. Crystallization is simply structure. Not death. If it were death, the world would be quite different. Bodies would crystallize instead of rot. Decomposer organisms would not be able to break them down. Everything that had ever lived would form a massive crystallized debris pile on the earth. This is not so.

Think in terms of Plato's forms. Crystallization is the mere manifestation of form into matter. Meaning, you have a "form" for a dog, but the puppy can only be said to actualize the "form" of the dog once it has matured to the point that it can be considered a dog and not a puppy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

hi lenzites

I don't know why tsmall has not replied to anything we have said in our discussion - a bit disappointing since it is her thread and question, don't you think? I can't find anything new to say without some new input, not that I haven't enjoyed talking with you.
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Unread 03-11-2013, 05:59 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
There is a positive and a negative to every aspect. How would you as an astrologer specifically say which will happen to your client? Will she be caught in Neptune's disillusioning web, or will she be able to transcend it?
This all depends on the evolution of the individual soul. It's that simple.

The individual has the ability to choose how they react to the influence of the various energies that unfold within their charts. Some may master those energies, others may succumb to them, allowing the influences to dictate their every move for better or for worse.

It is the astrologer's job to inform the person what energies they are dealing with and possible ways in which to manage the situation that will be of benefit to the individual and their soul's development.
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Smile Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

Uranus - masculine
Neptune - feminine
Pluto - feminine
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Sagittarius Sun - 5th house - Aries/Mars decan of Sagittarius
Leo Moon - 1st house - Leo/Sun decan of Leo
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Arrow Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

The masculine planets: Sun, Cruithne (Earth's natural satellite), Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Chiron, Uranus and Neptune.
The feminine planets: Moon, Mercury, Venus, Lilith (Earth's natural satellite), Ceres, Pluto, Eris and Sedna.
Mercury was named for a god with a gender-neutral identity. And Pluto was given a feminine label by many astrologers, but was named after a male deity. However, king (or queen) Jupiter and bigender Uranus each have a feminine side.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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Unread 12-13-2017, 09:20 AM
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Re: Pluto, Uranus, Neptune-masculine or feminine?

I would just refer back to Greek mythology. Neptune (Posiedon) was male, Pluto (Hades) was male, Uranus was also male.
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