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  #1  
Unread 09-12-2015, 11:16 AM
Kernowerno Kernowerno is offline
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Significators aspecting??

I just read the (very good) post 'How to Read a Horary Chart: The Basics' by archergirl and have a question regarding rule no. 3.

....In relationship questions, the quesited’s significator in conjunction with another planet (often Venus) means, literally, that the quesited is with someone else. Venus in the 7th house often shows this, too (if you or the quesited is not Venus in the chart).

In a chart I drew up, it appears that the significators are Venus and Mars, as the question was "Will we get back together again?". Presumably Mars is the quesitor & Venus the quesited, 1st at Scorpio, 7th at Taurus (although it is radical, admittedly the degree was within 3 so not reliable chart), but if the chart was reliable, would the answer still be that the quesited was 'literally with someone else'? My first thought is that this is an applying aspect and indicates that they will get back together. I notice the Moon is combust (is it? Same sign??) in this instance, so again, not a reliable chart I take it? Still, the question in isolation has me wondering.

Also, what would the Moon being in her house of detriment indicate in this situation (if she wasn't combust and the chart was applicable)? Thanks for your help.
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Unread 09-12-2015, 11:47 AM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

In relationship questions, the quesited’s significator in conjunction with another planet (often Venus) means, literally, that the quesited is with someone else.

The statement implies that:

If the significator of the 1st or 7th house, is conjoined another planet, the individual is with someone else. But this "other" planet, isn't one of the main players.

When they mean Venus, its when Venus is not the ruler of the 1st or 7th, and acts as the natural ruler of lust/sex/beauty/women/etc.

In that particular chart (which given by your statement, I'm not sure if it is a real one)...

It would seem to me that:

The Querent chose to separate from the Quesited, perhaps under the suspicion of cheating because of the presence of another person the quesited might have interacted with.

However not sure if the quesited is still interested in the querent at this point. Venus in Leo can have a wide range of interpretations depending if the quesited is a man or a woman.

But they are not getting back together, given that the Querent doesn't really want to. He is hurt and his pride is wounded.

Mars is separating from Venus. At least for some time, they won't be together.
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Last edited by Dirius; 09-12-2015 at 11:51 AM.
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Unread 09-12-2015, 06:23 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

Mars is separating from Venus. At least for some time, they won't be together.

Dirius, did you forget your Chaldean order?
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Unread 09-12-2015, 06:49 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Tsmall

mars and venus do not perfect
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:09 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Tik - as a rule, Venus moves more quickly than Mars. So Venus separates from Mars. Just like the moon separates from Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. (there's a clue in there
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:18 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

yeah but they don't perfect in virgo.
both void
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:20 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

I think that one went right over your head, Tik
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:30 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Tik - as a rule, Venus moves more quickly than Mars. So Venus separates from Mars. Just like the moon separates from Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. (there's a clue in there
I don't get it, Venus generally moves faster than Mars, and is not retrograde here. Is the speed slow? Is Venus approaching a station?
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:34 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Oh boy.

Venus separates from Mars, because Venus moves more quickly than Mars. The Chaldean order tells you the relative speed of the planets to each other.

It goes: Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.

That's all.
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:34 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
I think that one went right over your head, Tik

nothing went over my head

look at the empherasis and tell me where they perfect?

Mars was faster than Venus because VENUS was retrograde
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:35 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
I don't get it, Venus generally moves faster than Mars, and is not retrograde here. Is the speed slow? Is Venus approaching a station?
venus just came out of retrograde
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:36 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

LAST TIME.

Tsmall was making a bit of a joke. Dirius said that Mars was separating from Venus. If one is going to be correct, one should say that Venus is separating from Mars. The Chaldean order of the planets shows you the relative speed of the planets to each other.

That is all.
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:38 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
LAST TIME.

Tsmall was making a bit of a joke. Dirius said that Mars was separating from Venus. If one is going to be correct, one should say that Venus is separating from Mars. The Chaldean order of the planets shows you the relative speed of the planets to each other.

That is all.
Dirius is right

Mars is running away from Venus while Venus is chasing Mars.

*grins* you don't make fun of Mars ... it is still a planet! hint hint *points at pluto*
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Unread 09-12-2015, 07:57 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

tsmall was making a bit of a joke. Agreed, the conjunction does not perfect in Leo, not because Mars separates from Venus, but because Mars escapes into the next sign before Venus catches him. Jove, yes Venus is moving slow because she is just out of her second station.

The interpretive value in these nuances is extremely important, especially in horary. Which is why I pointed out that Mars is not separating from Venus. That would, were it possible, carry a different meaning.

Venus is chasing Mars after having been conjunct while in her degree of stationing direct. So Venus was standing still while Mars was moving forward. Venus wants to catch up but won't be able to before Mars changes signs. I agree with Dirius (never said I didn't) but it still remains that Mars as the slower planet isn't separating from Venus.
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Unread 09-12-2015, 08:46 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Thanks for having the patience to explain.

So, for this chart, what can we say is going on? The querent (Mars) moves on from the quesited (Venus), changes sign (puts Venus in the past??) but when the situation changes a little in the future (change of signs), the quesited, Venus comes back to the querent, Mars?

So, perfection happens some time in the future but not immediately?

Sidenote: as for detecting the stations, are most of us using dedicated software like Solar Fire for this? It's time for me to upgrade I think...
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Unread 09-12-2015, 08:54 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Byjove

Mars meets Saturn

there is no Venus/Mars perfection anywhere in the nearest future or in libra
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Unread 09-12-2015, 09:14 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post

So, perfection happens some time in the future but not immediately?
Yes, Venus does catch Mars in the 23rd degree of Virgo, which will happen in November. For purposes of this horary though it's a dead issue because both planets will aspect other planets before that happens. If, by some fluke it were to be that the conjunction took place in the next sign without interference then we could have a ball game, though the changing of signs would give clues to the situation. However, as tikana points out, Mars applies to Saturn before changing signs. Interesting here is less what is going on with Venus and Mars and more what is going on with Saturn collecting the light from Mars and Sun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Sidenote: as for detecting the stations, are most of us using dedicated software like Solar Fire for this? It's time for me to upgrade I think...
Upgrade from Solar Fire? I mean, I use Delphic Oracle and it does give you planets stationing within 7 days, but seriously all you have to do is look at an ephemeris. I like this one because retrograde planets are shown in red.

http://www.khaldea.com/kldaephem/2000/jan2015gmt.shtml
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Unread 09-12-2015, 09:42 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Tsmall

Saturn changes its sign before COL perfects
isn't that one of the prohibitive issues?
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Unread 09-13-2015, 12:05 AM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Oddity and tsmall are correct, Venus is faster and Mars can't be the one to "separate" from her (not by the definition of what separation means for us astrologers).

But I just implied they are not in applying conjunction while in the remaining of Leo, but rather getting away from each other. Sorry for the bad choice of words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Thanks for having the patience to explain.

So, for this chart, what can we say is going on? The querent (Mars) moves on from the quesited (Venus), changes sign (puts Venus in the past??) but when the situation changes a little in the future (change of signs), the quesited, Venus comes back to the querent, Mars?

So, perfection happens some time in the future but not immediately?

Sidenote: as for detecting the stations, are most of us using dedicated software like Solar Fire for this? It's time for me to upgrade I think...
Here the problem would be to try to "delve too deep" into what will happen. Whatever happens in Virgo (aspects/receptions/etc) is something that happens in a distant future.

If the planets were at the end of Leo (like in degrees 28 and 29) you could try to see what will happen given that they are just about to change into that sign, and enter that period.
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Last edited by Dirius; 09-13-2015 at 12:13 AM.
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Unread 09-13-2015, 02:05 AM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
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Oddity and tsmall are correct, Venus is faster and Mars can't be the one to "separate" from her (not by the definition of what separation means for us astrologers).
Actually, Dirius, you bring up a valid point One that I have been debating with friends offline all night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius;634435But I just implied they are not in applying conjunction while in the remaining of Leo, but rather getting away from each other. Sorry for the bad choice of words. :biggrin:[/QUOTE

To your point, it is necessary to revisit Chaldean order, and if heavy/light equals the same as swift/slow then we get a different delineation.



Here the problem would be to try to "delve too deep" into what will happen. Whatever happens in Virgo (aspects/receptions/etc) is something that happens in a distant future.

If the planets were at the end of Leo (like in degrees 28 and 29) you could try to see what will happen given that they are just about to change into that sign, and enter that period.
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Unread 09-13-2015, 02:09 AM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Which point?

I do agree with you guys. The planet that moves faster is the one that sort of "decides" how things go. He is the lead.
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Unread 09-13-2015, 03:14 AM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

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Which point?

I do agree with you guys. The planet that moves faster is the one that sort of "decides" how things go. He is the lead.
Well isn't that the conundrum? Chaldean order and pratical wisdom say that it is a contest between heavy and light, in which case Mars can't separate from Venus...but, if we assign speed then in this case Mars is the faster planet. It's...and idea worth debating.
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Unread 09-13-2015, 03:25 AM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Well isn't that the conundrum? Chaldean order and pratical wisdom say that it is a contest between heavy and light, in which case Mars can't separate from Venus...but, if we assign speed then in this case Mars is the faster planet. It's...and idea worth debating.
Well true, but thats only for the moment in which venus is "slow".

If you take the discussion to only include the sign in which the chart focuses then there may be something there.
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Unread 09-14-2015, 06:50 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Thanks Dirius, helpful. The querant in this case is male, the quesited is female, and the chart is real. I was questioning the validity of the chart because of the very early ascendant 2.2, which I took to mean the chart is unreliable, hence my doubt. However, you're spot on regarding the querant being concerned about cheating, that was/is the case. Also, you mention that the 'quesited' may not be interested in the querant any longer, where in the next sentence you say that the 'querant's' pride is hurt and wounded and doesn't want a reconciliation. Is that what you meant, or did you mean the querant may no longer be interested? Anyway, it appears that it is transpiring to be the case that the quesited is no longer interested. Thanks all of you for your input, it's been a very informative read.

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Unread 09-14-2015, 06:59 PM
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Re: Significators aspecting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kernowerno View Post
Thanks Dirius, helpful. The querant in this case is male, the quested is female, and the chart is real. I was questioning the validity of the chart because of the very early ascendant 2.2, which I took to mean the chart is unreliable, hence my doubt. However, you're spot on regarding the querant being concerned about cheating, that was/is the case. Also, you mention that the 'quesited' may not be interested in the querant any longer, where in the next sentence you say that the 'querant's' pride is hurt and wounded and doesn't want a reconciliation. Is that what you meant, or did you mean the querant may no longer be interested? Anyway, it appears that it is transpiring to be the case that the quesited is no longer interested. Thanks all of you for your input, it's been a very informative read.
For references, the early ascendant does indicate that the situation may be premature, but the chart can still be read. Its just something to take into consideration while reading.

Regarding the querent being interested or not: Its hard to make an interpretation.

The Moon in the fall of Venus implies the querent is not happy with the quesited. Yet its also its triplicity, showing both negative and positive feelings (more negative than positive).

But this is sort of common in breakups: "...you hurt me and I hate you, but I still care about you and miss you, but no you are horrible! but I miss what we had! but how could you leave me?...."

However the main significator of the querent is Mars, and is not in any strong dignity of Venus (just in its term I think), so Mars main concern might be himself at this point.

Honestly understanding the whole mix of reception is a bit complicate to pint point exactly what one could feel. To sum up: querent is angry or dissapointed with quesited, yet still cares for her.
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Last edited by Dirius; 09-14-2015 at 07:15 PM.
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