Who Else Has A GRAND CROSS to Bear?

StarGazerGirl

Well-known member
I've got one. It's heavy and difficult to carry but it's mine. :)

I'd love to know about experiences with yours, if you've got one, especially if all four corners fall within a tight orb and involve a planet.

Has your life been a never ending struggle because of your cross? Does it have a direct affect on your relationships? Do you notice any negative influences of it in your social life? How do you perceive its energy in your life. Do tell.

I have a fixed grand cross. It's been a struggle. I'm learning how to harness its energy for good.
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
I have a grand fixed cross involving planets on my ascendant and descendant and in my 4th and 10th houses.

Honestly I would say that my life has not been that difficult.
 

FROG

Well-known member
Re: Grand Cross
I have lots of squares, and T-Squares, but no Grand Cross.

The key words that help me with squares and oppositions:
Squares represent friction between the two planets. The solution is to pick one over the other. Find a work around. The purpose of the square is to help you evolve. There is no comfort in doing nothing. So you work around. It's like losing good eyesight for tiny detailed work, and so one changes the direction of one's work to be less reliant on that skill. I found it was easier for me to watch when the squares when my TSquare were triggered, and watch the choices I had a few times, before I could begin to get a handle on the meaning of the whole T Squrae in my Natal Chart which represents my entire life.

On the oppositions, the puzzle is different. What you have is representatives (planets) from two opposing teams (opposite signs) pulling on you. The recommendation is to find a compromise.

So you have Saturn in 12th Leo opposing Mars in 6th Aquarius.
The conflict between Leo and Aquarius, to me, is that Leo is personal, expressive and attention attracting, and Aquarius represents groups, politics, and the need to reform society, no room for "personal problems", all for the cause. The compromise could be take advantage of Leo's way of attracting people, and use that collect people behind some reformation movement. But that's only one way to combine the two.

Now adding the effect of the 6th and 12th house, we have problem the hidden matters of the 12 th house, and good health practices of the 6th are at odds with each other. One way, using the character of the signs, is to identify your health practices with those of established groups -- like the Mediterranean diet -- macrobiotic diet, etc. in lieu of giving away the private twists you prefer, and even consider joining some secret society's which help promote good character, and health practices.

Saturn in the 12 th, in Leo, on its own means you are here to learn some tough rules about of 12th house Leo. What responsibilities are there to in the sign of Leo? FairPlay comes to mind. Leo can be about the fund and the games, but Saturn in there may be pointing out the need master the game with fair play. And when it comes to weaving a compromise with group loving reformist Aquarius Mars in the opposite corner, what better deal than to advocate (Mars) for the Fair Play rules, thereby reforming the society of your 6th House. What is that society? That's the house of good habits, mentoring, being mentored, employment, employer, employee, where the general theme is -- service -- what service will you give or receive to make good health, good work conditions, good support environment, so that your base needs are maintained and you can go to the next step -- House 7, of partnerships.

Example of a person combining your opposition:
I know someone who merely runs the clock at the road races. He got into it, because it upset him that the practices varied widely, and he knew how to set up routines and equipment to standardize it fairly (Saturn in Leo). He knew it would help, if the runners would know and use these procedures when they practiced too. His Leo role was in the background (12th house) of these races, but his impact was for reform (Aquarius).

Mars stands for initiator, competitor, warrior, advocate, etc.
I think Mars in Aquarius most often means Advocate for some one who is not properly represented in governed group, like patients in a hospital.
But then again, so often the Aquarian expression is not for the individual, it is for a group of people (or their environment).

BTW: A Virgo Ascendant, suggests the person is known for being a hard worker, and is capable of effecting details of their work to perfection!!! Nothing to dislike about that! This alone would make you wanted, not unwanted.

However, the experience of having Moon in the 9th, may have blinded you to the fact that you have some fixed opinions and judgments about how things or people should be, and as kind as may try to be, these leak out and put off people when you are stressed. You may try to keep this material to yourself, but it will come out in bits and pieces anyway. It's up to you to own the problem, and choose to evolve to a better person. As to what that is, is up to you to surmise, try, test, adjust and figure out. Most people have conflicts within their character. Only some people use these to move themselves along. Bet you can, too.


Now let's look at the Moon and Uranus opposition.
The Moon in Taurus wants everything calm, all the time, no change.
Moon in Taurus has no need for modern times or equipment to complicate things.
Uranus in Scorpio was big changes, suddenly!
Uranus in Scorpio thrives on using technology for sudden change!


Solution:
Some days, the Moon might realize that Uranus's tools can do her a lot of good, like using sunscreen to sunbathe a lot!
Other days, Uranus might get Moon past being bullheaded about something, with a Quick Change, that gets it over with, so the Moon can go back to being Ms. Mellow.

Example:
I know a man who could have a hideous temper with employees who could not keep up with him. He had great physical strength. As he aged, and felt the sadness of what he'd been doing, he did a better job of apologizing, holding his temper, and focusing on the goal of everyone getting work done, instead of just himself. Eventually that wasn't enough in his mind. He went further. He brought in technology that would leverage the work of the weaker ones, allowing them to keep up with the pace of the work. See how that represents the Moon opposite Uranus?


All in all --
The more you become aware of the conflicts in your own values (as in the squares and oppositions) within you, and you consciously weave solutions, rather than project them on others (as though they have the problem), blame them on others (like they caused you to have the problem), or deny they exist ("What problem? No problem here.") , the more mastery you will have over your natal chart and the wider options you have on your future.

I like astrology becaues it helps me figure out what part of the conflict is mine, and what part is not.

I hope I was able to describe this in a way that entices you to work on your own puzzles, and enjoy it, for many many years.

For the time being, is there anything you can make, or grow and sell, even on a small scale? What are the rules for being a vendor of any sorts where you live, say on Saturday morning, or at a neighborhood fare? I know that making food to eat, requires lots of expensive equipment and licensing, usually. What about other things? This may not be vastly profitable, but it gives you experience, and it is in the direction of your North Node, where you want to go, in this life.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I don't have a grand cross either, but I'm glad you started this, because I've seen several on here and don't know what to tell people who have them.

I would think the modality of the grand cross would affect how it functions. Fixed signs hold their ground, cardinal signs are revved up to start something, and mutable signs are all about change. Maybe the modalities linked by a grand cross are a general life theme in some sense? Or at least background music to the life theme. And a grand cross includes one sign from each element, so you get a balance of fire, air, water, and earth.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
Graay Ghost, I can't imagine your Avatar ever having any problems. I hope your life remains struggle free, always ( what is that thing in his hands? ).

It's not that my life has been struggle-free. It's more that I do not think I can claim more than others. In fact it's probably less. And yes, information on the grand cross, especially the fixed grand cross. That's what I warned you about earlier, because I had done searching myself.

The thing in his hands is a crab. If you can't imagine this character having any problems your imagination must be slacking off today. In the comic he's from, he's had so many crises.
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
So maybe you've already integrated the powerful important lessons of the cross in your life so that it manifests positive experiences for you. I wonder how old you are though ( you don't have to say, obviously ). Only because I've certainly gone through phases, especially in my twenties, where I felt everything was great in the moment.

I have a childlike imagination...

Things being great in the moment is good, though. Ultimately the moment is all you have.

Anyway I think most of it is that I am just not so easily bothered. A lot of the things people come to this forum to resolve -- how to I get a social life, can I get a boyfriend, I need a job, will I have children... They're not really things that concern me much. Either they're not something I really care about or it's something that, while I might not have a lot of, I always manage to seem to have enough. So no, I don't know if I've thoroughly "learned" my grand cross. I'll just figure it out when I get there.

Then again, I'm a Taurus ASC. So there's that.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
What do you get out of astrology then? Surely, you have your own, equally pressing, questions you want answers to, I'm assuming.

I don't... I don't really have those right now. I don't know. :pouty: I read a lot and learn a lot about lots of things. It's always been that way. It probably also just feeds my ego somehow because I'm terribly self-centered.
 
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ScorpioCrow

Well-known member
I kinda-sorta have one. Mutable Grand Cross involving the nodes.

NN 11:virgo:
SN 11:pisces:
:pluto:07:sagittarius:
Anareta (point of the Killing Planet) 06:gemini:

If I had planets at 28:taurus: & 28:leo:, I'd have another involving my exactly-squared :moon: & :mercury: at 28:scorpio: & 28:aquarius: respectively.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
hahaha. That's great. Very honest. But are you Ultra Spiritual?

Well this thread is going no where.:bandit: It's probably gonna get closed.

I'm pretty sure threads here don't get closed here for going nowhere. I've never heard of a policy that strict on any forum, really.

Haha! Not "Ultra Spiritual," but I am way too honest. I guess that could be construed as a problem to some people. The other 90% of my actual problems come from me overracting to stupid, small, imaginary things. :unsure: I can't really see that actually being a part of my grand cross. I can also deeply underreact to things. I remember a doctor scribbling down "flat affect" while I was talking to him, though he wasn't a mental health doctor, so I do not know how valid that suggestion is.

When you ask about my social life and relationship problems, you do have to realize that I am the type of person who likes to keep others at arms-length for the most part. I will talk plenty and it's only later that people realize how little they know about me. I do not know. I have this feeling that sometime in my life some kind of circuit got blown but the thing is that because it doesn't prevent me from functioning at all and it's not causing pain, does a problem actually exist? No, I'd say. The ascetic hermit who lives on the top of the hill lacks a social life, but he's not suffering from it.
 

Osamenor

Staff member

Interesting article. And I think it proves the point I was making earlier about modalities. She says:

The Grand Cross teaches us to allow for another’s ideas and thoughts. It shows us that other’s ideas and opinions may be valid for something we need to know in life.

Her grand cross is in mutable signs. My observation of the mutables is that they all have a teaching and learning message. Gemini is the observer and communicator, teacher and pupil; Virgo is the apprentice, constantly working on perfecting a skill; Sagittarius is the philosopher, seeking out knowledge and experience and expanding on it; Pisces is the enlightened master (or at least diligently seeking enlightenment). Naturally, someone with a mutable grand cross would be oriented to allowing for another's ideas and taking them as a lesson.

I'm curious how someone with a fixed or cardinal grand cross would describe it.

Also a little curious as to the difference between a natal grand cross and a natal t-square that becomes a grand cross when a planet transits into the empty space. I'm going to have that very grand cross when Pluto and Saturn reach late Capricorn.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I read a lot and learn a lot about lots of things. It's always been that way. It probably also just feeds my ego somehow because I'm terribly self-centered.
You've got to be self centered to be on this forum. It's the place where everyone starts discussions to talk about themselves!

I first came on here when I was trying to figure out my own birth chart. Naturally, I started by asking questions about the aspects and placements I have. As a result, I now know more about t-squares and grand trines than the other complex aspects.

hahaha. That's great. Very honest. But are you Ultra Spiritual?

I LOVE that ultra spiritual video!!! I've known plenty of the kind of people he's satirizing, too, which makes it even funnier. I'm now watching my way through his other videos... thanks for the link! :lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
I could have written this about myself except I don't talk that much. I'm an ascetic hermit, too.

Being way too honest is an awesome quality in a person, I think. I made a vow to myself long ago to never tell a lie even little ones. I can't say that's it's been, too, useful for me; the world prefers lies, it seems. Who cares. Tell the truth anyway.

I'm familiar with that "flat affect". I make people drowsy. It's funny to witness.

I understand. I felt like this for many years - numb. But, I guess, when I was ready to deal with 'feelings' they appeared out of hiding when I thought they didn't exist at all. Life if crazy that way. But that's just me. Your content with your blown circuit is valid.

I am not a hermit and I am not numb. "Flat affect" is not about making people drowsy... It's a "severe reduction of emotional expressiveness." Probably because I was not acting distressed about something that should be causing me distress. Sometimes when I am aware that something is unavoidable my "distress" circuits sometimes don't flick on. Why should they? They're tired and what they're being faced with is not a problem, just an inevitable bad thing. It often comes out about being sick. A lot of people have a lot of feelings about being sick. I don't.

I have plenty of feelings. I just don't talk about them. People do not want to hear about them, anyway. (Text is a bit of a different matter).
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
Those who have a grand cross - do you check where planets involved in grand cross have support - possible harmonious aspects with other planets outside the grand cross? Mine grand cross has little support and one planet does not form any harmonius aspect.

Two of the points of mine form no harmonious aspects and are in opposition to each other. And in fact one of those points is conjunct Chiron. :unsure: The others are a part of a rectangle, though.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
This is interesting (and difficult, considering it is the part of the chart). My natal Chiron also conjuncts one part of the grand cross and is in opposition to the other part.

Would you say that you feel those two points with no harmonious aspects troubled?

I don't know. I think if anything, they're overdeveloped.

View attachment 54159

Of course the writer/mathematician has Aquarius Saturn in 20th house opposing Leo Mercury in 4th. Perfect sense.
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
I'm still learning but I wonder if a grand cross is still considered a grand cross if it doesn't involve the main ten planets. I have no idea. I really should do more research on it.

Ten planets? So you don't consider Pluto an astrological planet?

I would only really consider an aspect pattern to be an aspect pattern if it's involving actual bodies. A lot of people have said a lot of things, but one of them is that points and axes like nodes or part of fortune can only be affected by planets and can't affect them. The same push-pull doesn't exist.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Ten planets? So you don't consider Pluto an astrological planet?
Ten planets is all the known planets in the solar system, including Pluto but not including Earth, plus the sun and moon. The planet that gets excluded is Earth because astrology is based on the old idea that everything evolves around the earth. From a scientific perspective, we know that's not true, and no astrologer today would say the scientific perspective is false, but that's science, which has a different purpose from astrology. Astrology is based on how the bodies in the sky appear from our vantage point on earth. Since Earth doesn't appear in the sky above us, it's not counted as an astrological planet.

I would only really consider an aspect pattern to be an aspect pattern if it's involving actual bodies. A lot of people have said a lot of things, but one of them is that points and axes like nodes or part of fortune can only be affected by planets and can't affect them. The same push-pull doesn't exist.
Nodes and Part of Fortune are suggestions. Points and planets are the meat of the birth chart. Planets and points represent what already exists in tangible form, while nodes and POF simply represent potential (or the ghost of the past, in the case of the south node). I do think that points act on planets as much as planets act on points. If a planet is angular, that gives it extra strength.

I think of the nodes and POF as something that doesn't really exist, at least not in any tangible form, but the planets and/or points connected with them tell us where and how to look for the potentials that they indicate.

Based on that, I would include points in complex aspects, but not the nodal axis or POF except when doing an interpretation of the story that they represent. However, I think there's more meat to a complex aspect such as a grand cross if it includes a planet at every one of its intersections than if one of those spaces is only occupied by a point.
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
Little guy with big eyes holding crab... what. do. you. mean?

It's called I'm an idiot who forgot the Earth isn't a planet here.

Anyway. I guess my main problem with using axes in aspect patterns like this is because they provide points of opposition to everyone's chart and their relationship to each other is dependent on how far you are from the equator. To say that anyone born close enough to the equator will have some grand cross problems simply because their axes are 90 degrees apart sounds pretty ridiculous to me. Also composing a four-pointed pattern with just 3 elements still feels like cheating. Maybe if we were looking at the ASC as a point on a grand trine, it might be different.

Then again I don't have these problems associated with a grand cross, so probably mine's the one that's fake, somehow. I've had plenty of "concrete achievements." I just feel fulfillment in none of them.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
I just don't understand it, really.

It's not hard to "accomplish" things. Most of the times it's just a matter of ticking of the appropriate boxes. And people look at these ticked boxes and are impressed, but they mean nothing to me, even to the point that I'm confused when I get any praise for this simple box-ticking. It's tiring. "Accomplishing" does not make me happy. The things that make me happy are few and far between and nobody really understands them, or cares about them, or thinks that they're actually worth anything... If anything "accomplishing" anything makes me more upset than happy, but I'm stuck having to do it to live. There's too much out there saying that a "fixed grand cross" has to "surrender." This is what surrender looks like. It's horrifying. It's a constant low-level depression that can never be relieved. But that's the thing, because I am able to get up every day, go to work, come home, eat, shower, go to sleep, there's nothing actually wrong. It's an imaginary problem. An imaginary, unsolveable problem.
 
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