Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Quite true: for me, the answer to this entire issue-to the question about why Saturn "behaves well" (in transit) asked by the OP, rests on the natal dignity and detriment issue + the natal dignity or detriment of the signs Saturn will transit through, during the life of the native: unfortunately, the way I would delineate and answer this question, derives from the ashtakavarga methodology of traditional Vedic astrology (adapted to the tropical zodiacal matrix) and so I cannot elaborate about it here on the Traditional Western Forum...

As we have
no provision for a specifically 'Vedic Traditional sub-Forum' as such,
then, for those interested to explore ASHTAKAVARGA METHODOLOGY
a brief explanation is available at
http://www.kas-astrology.com/uploads/5/2/5/0/5250257/lesson01.pdf :smile:
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I have to say that Saturn's position is not without respite.. Jupiter, though poorly placed, in a dexter trine to Saturn by sign and mitigates his effects. .


I think this is a very significant observation: as you know, aspect by sign (which I refer to as "platik" aspect) was the way to judge aspects (and conjunctions) during the Hellenist period (right up to Rhetorius in the 7th century) True, with the Islamic transitional era (and subsequently) determination of aspects switched to aspect-by-degree, the aspect by sign method of the Hellenists being discarded. However, there certainly is historical warrant for considering aspect-by-sign in making a Traditionalist-based delineation.

Now, Ibn Ezra ("Beginning of Wisdom"), in the chapter immediately prior to his discussion of the Lots, states that "...the harm of Saturn is removed by Jupiter..." (and mentions aspect by Jupiter via sextile or trine) So, using Hellenist aspect-by-sign coupled with the "Jupiter-removing-the-harm-of-Saturn-by sextile-or-trine-aspect" principle** mentioned by Ibn Ezra, and applying this to the OP's chart vis-a-vis the Saturn considerations of that chart, the platik (by sign) trine of Jupiter to Saturn would modify (for the better) Saturn's condition/influence potentials, in that chart, as Larxene has noted. (Ebenia also notes this Jupiter-to-Saturn by-sign aspect in her post earlier in this thread)



**This "Jupiter removes the harm of Saturn by sextile/trine aspect" principle is also to be found in other Islamic transitional era sources, such as Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction" (I believe in chapter 18)= note that the "Great Introduction" is NOT the commonly available "Abbreviation", which is a highly condensed booklet of 58 pages: the "Great Introduction" is Abu Mashar's elaboration of his understanding of the principles and methodologies of the astrological art, and runs to 488 pages of text and commentaries.

(Addendum: the "Great Introduction to the Science of Astrology", Frankfurt am, 1985; facsimile of MS 1508. Carullah Collection, Suleymaniye Library, Istanbul)
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
Greetings in return, Marius.

Greetings

Fitness of the planet is reffering to potentiality. As I already explain on this forum, the potentiality it's a matter of capability, ability, strength, power and indicate that something might have the chance to happen or not to happen or shows how something could be done well.

I have often found that if we want to refer members to posts we have made previously it is helpful to include a link. Goodness knows I have made several posts that would pertain to this conversation but I do not expect that anyone would care to search them out. It has been my experience that the only member here at AW with that kind of respect (in that he may post a reference and get other members to search for it) is dr. farr.

In the previous message I was talking about attitude, not fitness. In simple terms, the attitude is reffering to the potential of the planet to do good or bad for the native. The attitude indicates how the planet will act, regarding the needs of the native.

Yes, and you did point out, despite your arguments with Schmidt's definition of sect, that you would consider this a diurnal chart becaus Helios/Sun is within 12* of the horizon. I can understand why it could be easy to reach this conclusion, since in the dawn it does become light (visibly) before the Sun actually rises. That said, the Sun has not yet risen.

I am hopeful that dr. farr can again help us out with is vast knowlege of all things astrology in that there is a delineative differenece when we are speaking of the Sun near the horizon?

For myself and the majority of traditional astrologers, the Sun has not risen until it has crested the horizon, just as the Moon has not completely set until she dips below it. The visual would be on a flat plane. Can you see the body of the Sun or Moon, or can you not?

I believe, especially with what little the OP has given us to go on, that this is indeed a night chart. She said

The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.

What she is describing is an out of sect Saturn, ruling her 3rd/4th signs as a completely incompetent house ruler. The ASC being squared from the 3rd in her natal chart means that transiting Saturn had already opposed her natal Saturn and was squaring the ASC from his daytime/preferred house. Which speaks to the point I have been trying to make. Saturn in this chart is debilitated, but the transits of Saturn don't have to be so. And I do believe that is the question that was posed. "How is it possible that Saturn, when he is so heavily debilitated in my natal chart, behaves well when in transit?"

The cadent places are not weak in the sense of strengthens, they are weak in pursuing the priorities in someone’s life like pivotal places do. The dynamic of the cadent and succedent places will always be reported to the pivots. The places must always be checked in triads: 12-1-2; 3-4-5; 6-7-8; 9-10-11.

While this is against generally accepted doctrine, in that the potential is found in the succedent place, realized in the angular place, and destroyed in the cadent place, I actually agree with your conceptualization of the triad. Cadent planets are perpetualy falling. Why this was later misconstrued is a mystery to me, but this is one of those instances where I have previously posted on this fourm about an idea. I'm certain you have not read it. Planets that are falling away from the angles do not create events, they react to them. When something falls, it can fall into place, or fall out of it.

For example, the priorities in someone’s life could be: health, shelter, love, achievements. The 9th place is related with knowledge. The native achievements will be guide by knowledge. There is nothing week here.

This is perhaps another misunderstanding on my part, but at no point have I personally stated that a debilitated Saturn is "weak." Rather, it is debilitated.

I’m not following the medieval doctrine but the babylonian one. Every planet has a life cycle. The maximum strength and vigour of a havey planet will be in fact before it reaches its peak, after the first station, in the phase so called, achronychial rise.

I apologize, Marius, but I do not see how you have been able to relate this back to what the OP has given us of her natal Saturn and the effects it has had on the natal houses it rules. I do wonder if most replying to this thread read only the title and not the post?

As an explanation for those watching this thread who may not understand, a heavy/superior planet (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars) stations retrograde (1st station) at the superior trine to the Sun. it is retrograde until it reaches its second station, at the inferior trine to the Sun. (This is a Mundane and not Zodiacal trine.) At the oppostion to the Sun, every superior planet will be retrograde, and will have entered into curtailed passage; when it is seen to neither rise nor set. Once it passes the opposition, it is said to make an achronical rise.


about the life o human being. The human is born, and its passing to 4 ages: childhood (AS), adulthood (MC), manhood (DS), old age (IC). Between adulthood (MC) and manhood (DS) you will find yourself most powerful ( 9th place).

The same logic, babilonian applied to the path of the havey planets. Before the planet reaches its manhood, its power will be the greatest.

Retrogradation of a havey planet, in the first helical cycle, force the planet to look forward, to the future. After is shifting its position relative to Helios, the planet is force to look backward, to the past. The farther is the planet form its place of departure the later in life the planet will give its gifts. Its logical that retrograde planets, to grant their gifts later in life. There are many things to say on this chapter. I found the delineations of medieval era to be in general, slightly in error.

I would question then which Persian astrologers you have been reading, because this part of you post is quite eloquent and not entirely out of line with those same Persian astrologers. If, however, you are referring to the later Medieval tradition ala Bonatti and later Lilly, you may have a point.

I apologize if my explanations are not easy to follow. As I said, that Kronos will give mixed results, and could be considered anyhow, but not weak.

I am a bit more comfortable with your Greek references than most would be, which is why I try to clarify them. This is a learning forum for mostly beginners. I've yet to discover where anyone on this thread has said that Saturn was weak?
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
"Planets falling away from the angles do not create events, they react to them" is a concept that is supported (but not using the same words) in Paulus Alexandrianus; the information in the OP's post, seems to show this reactive situation regarding Saturnine matters. In the chart, of course (for me) Saturn is in the 10th house (for domification considerations)-however, considering the MC point itself, Saturn does fall away from the MC, by position and by direction (moving away from 0 MC by retrograde motion)...
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Examining the sunrise times for Hereford England, on the date of the OP's birth, the time of birth is fully 1 hour earlier than the time of sunrise. The Sun is 12 degrees below the ascendant line in the chart. Crepuscular sunrise, as I understand it, occurs when, although the body of the Sun is still under the horizon, the amount of light is sufficient for objects to be distinguishable (assuming a clear or mostly clear sky), so that outdoor activities can commence. Historically this has been referred to when the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon (in astrology, 6 degrees below the ascendant line) In the OP's chart, the Sun is 12 degrees below, so it seems that the Sun is beyond the limit of what could be considered as a crepuscular sunrise: I'd have to conclude that the OP's chart is, essentially, a nocturnal one. "Crepuscluar" means "twilight" and I think, given the sunrise data, this chart is more of a twilight one than a decidedly nocturnal one: however, for delineative purposes, I myself would view it as "nocturnal".
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Examining the sunrise times for Hereford England, on the date of the OP's birth, the time of birth is fully 1 hour earlier than the time of sunrise. The Sun is 12 degrees below the ascendant line in the chart. Crepuscular sunrise, as I understand it, occurs when, although the body of the Sun is still under the horizon, the amount of light is sufficient for objects to be distinguishable (assuming a clear or mostly clear sky), so that outdoor activities can commence. Historically this has been referred to when the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon (in astrology, 6 degrees below the ascendant line) In the OP's chart, the Sun is 12 degrees below, so it seems that the Sun is beyond the limit of what could be considered as a crepuscular sunrise: I'd have to conclude that the OP's chart is, essentially, a nocturnal one. "Crepuscluar" means "twilight" and I think, given the sunrise data, this chart is more of a twilight one than a decidedly nocturnal one: however, for delineative purposes, I myself would view it as "nocturnal".
The timing of a birth dr. farr is always a crucial factor
in that it is entirely possible that the actual birth occurred some time before it was actually noted on medical records
- and in this particular case, if the birth was noted some time earlier -
then the Sun may well have been very close to the horizon

FURTHERMORE

even if we accept the official time of birth,
I notice that the Moon is clearly above the horizon
and since the Moon opposes the Sun
the birth occurred very close to a Full Moon

and

That Full Moon is clearly lighting up the skies since it is clearly above the Horizon/Descendant by four degrees or so

and

With a bright rising Sun approaching the Ascendant
while opposing a brilliant and bright Full Moon above the horizon
clearly the skies were very bright
:smile:

much brighter than if for example the Moon had been a quarter Moon and well below the horizon

Both Moon and Sun are in separating square with Saturn
Saturn, albeit in his own Ptolemaic terms, is uncomfortably located in the domicile of the Sun
While the Sun is peregrine

Sun and Saturn are in challenging aspect with an Angular, Exalted, in Triplicity and in own Face, Moon



 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Total Lunar Eclipse at 25°57' Taurus. I'm familiar because I was born 3 days later. :wink:
So one wonders as to how your natal Saturn functions....
by the way
the Total Lunar Eclipse did not occur until much later the evening of the same day at 22:28HRS GMT
i.e.
Sixteen Hours AFTER the OP was born
Therefore the Moon was not eclipsed at the time of the OP's birth
but shone brightly in the night skies :smile:

HOWEVER

notice that the OP's Ascendant
is remarkably close, within three degrees

of the degree of the Solar Eclipse of 3 November 1975
that Solar eclipse was at 10 Scorpio 29
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Greetings,

According to Rumen Kolev, “The Babylonian Astrology & Astronomy”, page 4, the sunrise starts when in the the night, we see the first time, a hallo of light in the eastern horizon. The day starts when the sunrise starts. When Helios reaches 12 degrees above the horizon, the stars of +4 m will be already disappearing from zenith
I have purchased several of Rumen Kolev's excellent publications and his software Porphyrius Magus as well http://www.babylonianastrology.com/...&category_id=6&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1 and it is evident that he is not only an astrologer
but also
he is a skilled and knowledgeable PRACTICING astronomer
and is therefore speaking from personal experience.

http://www.babylonianastrology.com/
When you compute the Epikratetor (Apheta, Hyleg), the giver of Light (life). Helios in the AS (east) will predominate over Selene in DS (west). Predomination is a distinct chapter which implies primarly, the sect of the chart. This can be discuss in another topic
A useful and interesting topic to discuss on another thread if you would like to commence one Marius, many thanks
Anyway, the Full Moon phase, rejoice with the heliacal sect.
This is because Selene is full of light, its brilliance reaches aprox -12m.
This makes the sky brighter, as JupiterASC was pointing out.

In this particular chart, in my opinion, the dichotomy will be in favor for the diurnal planets from both Lights.
The maleficence of Kronos will be lessen
The question of course to be more clearly determined is, exactly how 'heavily debilitated' Saturn is
and to that end, this is a most interesting and useful discussion

...I rather say that, the impulse is found in the succedent places, achieved in angular ones and distributed by the cadent ones. But each house is different, like the fingers of your hand.

What you have just described is called Cosmical Setting.

You made Kronos “ completely incompetent”, which in my opinion, is not true. From there I drag the conclusion that you see Kronos weak, unable to conduct its businesses. That’s why I wrote a short description of its fitness (ability) on planetary level. See my first message.

This discussion will go nowhere, if we judge like this, what each member wrote.

I read Kate’s exposure and her wish was to know if Kronos will operate very negatively in her life.

I quote


I am looking for a Traditional answer:
Saturn should operate very negatively in my life,
and yet he doesn't seem to.

Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best,
but apart from that,
Saturn has been more friend than foe to me,
and I cannot fathom why”
.

My answere was
"
Kronos will tend to give mixed results:
not very bad, but not good either
"
.
Clearly Saturn/Kronos is aometimes giving good results,
sometimes not so good results
so therefore Saturn/Kronos is neither 'totally incompetent'
nor 'totally competent' either
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I completely agree with Marius Cojoc's conclusion that, in the OP's chart, Saturn is not a complete or decided malefic, but rather is of mixed influence.



(Note: I have come to the conclusion of a mixed Saturnine influence in my posts and a similar "mixed Saturn influence" conclusion has also been stated or implied, in the posts by Larxene and Ebenia)
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
even if we accept the official time of birth,
I notice that the Moon is clearly above the horizon
and since the Moon opposes the Sun
the birth occurred very close to a Full Moon

and

That Full Moon is clearly lighting up the skies since it is clearly above the Horizon/Descendant by four degrees or so

and

With a bright rising Sun approaching the Ascendant
while opposing a brilliant and bright Full Moon above the horizon
clearly the skies were very bright:smile:


These are excellent points regarding the state of LIght at the OP's birth.
As I stated in my post, I think this is a "twilight" chart vis-a-vis the situation regarding Light-and it could well be that IN FACT (if not technically, as per my post about crepuscular considerations) we have here a diurnal chart.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Greetings,

According to Rumen Kolev, “The Babylonian Astrology & Astronomy”, page 4, the sunrise starts when in the the night, we see the first time, a hallo of light in the eastern horizon. The day starts when the sunrise starts. When Helios reaches 12 degrees above the horizon, the stars of +4 m will be already disappearing from zenith.

When you compute the Epikratetor (Apheta, Hyleg), the giver of Light (life). Helios in the AS (east) will predominate over Selene in DS (west). Predomination is a distinct chapter which implies primarly, the sect o the chart. This can be discuss in another topic.

Anyway, the Full Moon phase, rejoice with the heliacal sect. This is because Selene is full of light, its brilliance reaches aprox -12m. This makes the sky brighter, as JupiterASC was pointing out. In this particular chart, in my opinion, the dichotomy will be in favor for the diurnal planets from both Lights. The maleficence of Kronos will be lessen.

Excellent points regarding the condition of Light in the reference chart!
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
If we have, defacto (due to the condition of Light) a diurnal chart here, then the generic significator of the OP's father is the Sun, not Saturn (see OP's comments regarding her father)
Also, the firdaria chronocrator order changes (in my experiments with firdaria I use the tables given in al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction")
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
PS: I would ask the OP to post on this thread again-we really need her to provide more of her experiences vis-a-vis Saturn!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
If we have, defacto
(due to the condition of Light)
a diurnal chart here, then the generic significator of the OP's father is the Sun,
not Saturn
(see OP's comments regarding her father)

Also, the firdaria chronocrator order changes
(in my experiments with firdaria I use the tables given in al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction")
Certainly the Sun alone determines whether the chart is a day or a night chart
and
Since the Moon is bright due solely to the reflection of light received from the directly opposing Sun
then this is a most interesting natal chart
in terms of determining night/day and planetary sect
of this particular natal chart

PS:
I would ask the OP to post on this thread again
-we really need her to provide more of her experiences vis-a-vis Saturn!
tsmall has already highlighted Saturn being domicile ruler of 3rd and 4th whole sign houses
and I would add that Saturn's role as Exaltation ruler of 12th whole sign house requires examination also

I agree that we need the OP to focus on and post more detail on personal experiences of the topics of these houses
in order to better analyse Saturn's condition

 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Greetings

The birth time is very suspicious.
If Kate has the AS in 14 degree of the Scorpion, she would be short or medium in height, large shoulders, large head, dark and culry hair, reddish or brownish complexion.
Because Ares is oriental, I think that the body will be hairy.
Hepaistios suggest us that there will be a mark around the "bosom and the loins".
Katie's forum profile shows she joined the forum on 12 March 2014
then has posted only once,
to ask this interesting question on Saturn
BUT
has not logged in since,
so the mystery regarding details of her actual experiences regarding activities of natal Saturn
as well as her time of birth
necessarily shall remain a mystery unless she returns
:smile:
Hello all,

I'm new to the forum
although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...

I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.

View attachment 46528
 

tsmall

Premium Member
If we have, defacto (due to the condition of Light) a diurnal chart here, then the generic significator of the OP's father is the Sun, not Saturn (see OP's comments regarding her father)
Also, the firdaria chronocrator order changes (in my experiments with firdaria I use the tables given in al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction")

dr. farr, a couple of ideas. Not challenges, lol.

I still think it is a night Chart. Saturn's condition and the description the OP gave of her father, to me at least, suit more than Sun in the 1st in Scorpio. Especially since Sun is configured with Mercury, who is in Joy, at least in this chart.

My thoughts were running more along the lines (it would really help if the OP were to come back!) of the houses Saturn rules, and those that he regards. Using whole sign houses, Saturn rules the 3rd and 4th. He can see the 4th from opposition, but he cannot "see" or "regard" the 3rd. His detriment can therefor be "felt" or impact the 4th, but he is adverse to the 3rd. Are you following me?

As to the idea that he will give mixed results; we are all, myself included, missing the rest of the chart. Mars is the exaltation ruler of the 3rd, and though also retrograde, HIS ruler, Moon, is exalted in the 7th. She does regard him via sextile, so she is able to help him. She also sends her rays into the 3rd via trine. Some evidence perhaps that the significations of the 3rd house will be mitigated for all that the ruler of the 3rd is debilitated?

Larxene, you were quick to dismiss that Saturn is supported by both Moon and Venus, who look at him (with their rays) from the trine and sextile, and instead wanted to go to Jupiter. I would point out that Jupiter is retrograde in the chart, and doesn't station for another month after the nativity. Moon and Venus, in a night chart, are the in-sect benefics and that Venus is in domicile and Moon is in exaltation, both looking at Saturn, are actually quite beneficial influences for Saturn. That said, you do have a bit of an argument about Jupiter's influence, since he is moving toward being direct. There is a different delineative value in planets that are in thier first or second station. My point, since we are looking at this chart in the tropical zodiac (Marius, I must admit I am a bit surprised that you study Ruman Kolev/Babylonian Astrolgy and yet don't use the sidereal zodiac) is that Jupiter is in Aries, the sign of Saturn's fall. Sahl and others called this not-reception, but that is a bit of a misnomer. Saturn will reject anything from Jupiter (based on traditional ideas of rectption) because Jupiter, though a sectmate of Saturn, is in the very sign that Saturn hates the most.

Some other traditional ideas we have neglected: Triplicity rulers of each house will tell us how the houses will go during their tenure as time lords. We tried to take only one planet into consideration in a natal chart when we all <should> know better. The effects of a debilitated planet can be mitigated by the other planets, and those other planets can bear better "witness" to the happenings of a house, especially when the ruler of that house cannot see it. Despite the fact that a house/sign is ruled by a debilitated planet, there will be times when the affairs of that house will not suffer (profections and revolutions will be a good tool to tell us when.)
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
As I mentioned a few posts back, I too ultimately consider this a nocturnal chart although I regard the points made regarding the situation of the Light at the birth time, to be worthy of consideration and possibly to be a modifying factor (for me, ultimately I do consider the day to begin when the rim of the Sun breaks the visible horizon; but for me, since I consider the Vedic allocations of sect to be accurate, this makes Saturn in sect-however, we shall discount this consideration because of this being the Traditional WESTERN forum)

Looking at the totality of influences of other chart elements upon the Saturn condition, we find that only Venus aspects Saturn (by in-sign aspect rules) by degree aspects, and that is seperating. When I find such a situation (when evaluating planetary influences upon a particular planet or other chart element) I then go to the consideration of Hellenist platik aspects (that is, aspect by sign rather than by degree) Now we find (ie using Hellenist aspect by sign) much more:
-Moon squares Saturn
-Mercury squares Saturn
-Sun squares Saturn
...which for me adds to the - side of the Saturn situation here
And
-Venus trines Saturn
-Jupiter trines Saturn
...which for me adds to + side of the Saturn situation, especially in light of the doctrine (mentioned in an earlier post) of Jupiter (in aspect) "removing the harm of Saturn". I think that Saturn WILL accept at least something + from this platik trine by Jupiter, since both planets are in the same (ie Fiery) triplicity, and that Saturn shares co-rulership of that triplicity with Jupiter (and with the Sun) That trining (by sign) Jupiter is in the Fall of Saturn would (in my opinion) diminish the extent of this beneficial relationship, but (in my opinion) would not totally negate it.

So, again we are left (in my opinion) with a mixed totality of influences regarding Saturn in this chart: I really think we need more of the OP's input, to see if in actual life Saturn has been more of a malefic than of a benefic, or if in fact, its influences have been pretty mixed...
 
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