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  #26  
Unread 06-08-2017, 02:18 PM
vanessanz vanessanz is offline
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

Thanks Raven. Nice to meet you! Actually what has transformed my understanding substantially, was i lost nearly everything when Pluto crossed my AC a few years ago. There were also some other heavy transits at the same time. My Lover & brother were both killed in accidents. I became intimate with death & grief. I had a nasty court case about my lovers estate with his siblings & i lost $4mill of business & properties & assets i'd built up & ended up with nothing at all. I also completely lost trust in the police & justice systems & pretty much all our current systems. There was some really nasty behind the scenes corruption & sabotage going on [natal stationary Neptune in 12th house closely square Moon / MC]. It just about killed me. In the aftermath i broke my pelvis & couldn't walk for 6 months and developed a sudden severe anaphylactic reaction to any dairy, along with being diagnosed with PTSD & being suicidal...the carnage was so extreme it's almost funny So anyway, i've learnt something from it, & i'm much more conscious of navigating between this side & the other. I'm also very clear that i'm not here to prop up the current system, but to help change it. My only real problem now, apart from lack of capital, is that my energy levels are so low still. I'm also picking that the transiting stationary Neptune sitting on my IC is doing this & it's setting off my natal T-square. I have 0 concentration at the moment. I navigate my days with lists My family is also dissolving in every direction at the moment, one branch is dissolving because my cousin has been open about incest by her father, & my childhood home [a farm] is being sold right now & flattened for grapes in the next few weeks....ah Neptune on the IC what more will you bring....


Last edited by vanessanz; 06-08-2017 at 02:22 PM.
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  #27  
Unread 06-08-2017, 03:11 PM
aleth3ia aleth3ia is offline
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

Suicide is said to be a 12th house matter as well. 12th house being isolation, uncommon things, higher states of consciousness, a great empathy for all that is yet unknown, as well. Suicide is taboo for most of the world, but for some people it's the best idea they ever had, but if they'll do that or not, I think it's better to be found in transits... not sure.
I'm a 12th house Sun and I've always been fascinated with my own death, seeing it like a liberation, I've thought about it when I was depressed and even when I was at the top of my happiness, it's just a thought in the back of my mind that always makes me wonder "what's beyond?"... very 12th house.
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  #28  
Unread 06-09-2017, 02:37 AM
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

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Originally Posted by vanessanz View Post
There was some really nasty behind the scenes corruption & sabotage going on

I'm also very clear that i'm not here to prop up the current system, but to help change it.
That is certainly a lot to be dealing with. I was interested in how the natal Chiron-Jupiter conjunction has manifested for you, and so it appears that the building of some kind of business (you mentioned losing quite a lot of $$$) has been how you expressed it. It is a very can-do kind of energy, where there are no obstacles to what you want to achieve. Perhaps, after a time of recovery, you can access some of that energy again, but with different kinds of goals in mind.

I quoted the two sentences above because that is a huge and very important lesson. All Western cultures are run by corrupt systems, and this goes beyond politics and government, to the legal system, the military, and into all levels of government departments. Ultimately, we all have to resist "playing the game".

I was interested in the goings on in your wider family - the selling of the farm, and your cousin's accusations of incest. Around 3 years ago my family's farm was sold (after something like 5 generations of farming in the family, my brother decided he wanted to try something else) At the time I had tr Uranus just having entered the 4th house, but I was not especially bothered by the farm going, as I had so much going on in my own house!!
The incest accusations is a very Neptunian issue, also, and especially with transiting Chiron also being in Pisces. Given that transiting Chiron travels through your 4th house from April 2014 until around April 2024, the underlying wounds in your family line of heredity - and especially in the female line - are being exposed. This includes your own personal sense of "home", or being at home on the planet. This is difficult, but it is also part of the process of uncovering the truth.
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  #29  
Unread 06-09-2017, 02:57 AM
vanessanz vanessanz is offline
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

Thanks for your insight. Much appreciated!

None of the family issues so far have bothered me at all either - i think its because i have such a Neptunian chart that i'm comfortable with the fluid chaos & feel detached after the last few years of extreme trauma - quite comfortable with the fact that we all die & everything constantly changes & that despite having a tight knit clan structure in my family, love in it's richest sense is family

As for the business drive - yes, i've always been self employed & started multiple businesses from scratch. The business that i lost was as a property developer having spent 10 years restoring high-end heritage houses. [Sun in 4th, prominent Saturn & Moon]. I now have a business i've built from scratch again selling high-end antiques [Saturn. Moon?]. I have such a strong visual ability that these areas are instinctual. I barely have to work at it, so path of least resistance for me
I'm strongly entrepreneurial, with an equally strong visionary / idealistic streak.
I put the entrepreneurial drive down to Jupiter in Aries, closely sextile Mars, and my Capricorn AC
Your comments about Chiron / Jupiter are interesting as i've never known what to make of my Chiron conjunction.
I am so clear these days on an intuitive level that i'm here to help with radical social change using business as the medium to change how everyday systems work [food, housing, media]. These days i'm quite comfortable forcing business into a not-for-profit humanitarian model, without compromising. If i hadn't had such a big business & personal wipe-out i don't think i would have reached a position where i feel so clear & bombproof so quickly...

Thanks again for your interesting insight.
Having been right on the edge multiple times with suicide, i hope my chart & experience can help other people on their journey

Last edited by vanessanz; 06-09-2017 at 03:02 AM.
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  #30  
Unread 06-11-2017, 09:50 AM
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

vanessanz, I have given your post(s) some thought over the past couple of days. A number of years ago (around 20-25) I did some quite detailed research into Chiron and its effects and purpose on one's chart. I still stick by my assessment that the Chiron-Jupiter conjunct in Aries and in your 5th house is fundamental in your entrepreneurial abilities, although the other aspects you mention are not without influence. For instance, I also have Capricorn rising, but whenever the words `business' or `money' or `moving forward' are spoken, I become overcome by lethargy and disinterest. I am more the expressive/artistic type, but that is down to my Libra MC and all that influences it.

Chiron-Jupiter conjunct, and in Aries, is a no-boundaries kind of placement, with a heightened ability to go it alone and take risks others would never consider, let alone actually attempt. Combine that with the Moon-Mercury opposition - with Moon conj MC, and Mercury in Pisces - you have a massively heightened level of intuition - perhaps to the level where you don't even have to tune in to it, and that it just works for you. Added to that is the warrior-like placement of Chiron-Jupiter sextile Mars in Gemini. It all adds up to a high level of potential energy.

With tr Uranus currently conjuct that Jupiter, your restlessness is heightened, along with a genuine desire to make a difference in the world - but in a way which suits you, and is unique to you - so that what you have lived through actually has a purpose which goes beyond the businesses you have built in the past.
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  #31  
Unread 06-11-2017, 11:36 AM
vanessanz vanessanz is offline
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

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Chiron-Jupiter conjunct, and in Aries, is a no-boundaries kind of placement, with a heightened ability to go it alone and take risks others would never consider, let alone actually attempt.
Combine that with the Moon-Mercury opposition - with Moon conj MC, and Mercury in Pisces - you have a massively heightened level of intuition - perhaps to the level where you don't even have to tune in to it, and that it just works for you. Added to that is the warrior-like placement of Chiron-Jupiter sextile Mars in Gemini. It all adds up to a high level of potential energy.
This sums me up to a T...."a no-boundaries kind of placement, with a heightened ability to go it alone and take risks others would never consider, let alone actually attempt"......When i was developing i had the admiration of a no of prominent businessmen in the city for holding together more complex, ambitious projects under more extreme circumstances than they would have dreamed of trying to do. I was in my early 30s & the only female developer i am aware of in NZ And it was a completely solo business. Even outside of business i'm notorious amongst my friends for pushing boundaries And yes, it's a combination of a mind that's fast at processing information [Mercury trine Uranus], but mostly you're right that i navigate both my personal & professional life on pure instinct. It's generally served me very well, apart from my weakness of being naively trusting of people. Even with the antique business, i can be in an auction room with much more experienced dealers & i routinely pick the undervalued pieces on a kind of 'smell / sixth sense'. I rely on it to make a living. Half the time i can't even necessarily identify what i'm buying, i just buy on that sixth sense [and i've yet to loose money on anything ]. It's the same with lovers, i've always just chosen on a sixth sense and been incredibly lucky. It's hard to describe, but also quite specific...the closest i can come is that on first feeling the other persons energy, it's like being clonked on the head & kicked into a parallel universe at the same time. It was only talking to girlfriends about their constant sub-optimal matches, where i'd continually suggest they use their instinct in choosing a guy, that i very slowly came to realize that not everyone navigates life by intuition. It's the Pisces / Moon placements you mentioned, but i'm sure that sixth sense is also down to stationary Neptune in 12th house almost exactly square my Moon / MC. I still don't quite get what Chiron is adding to my Jupiter in Aries 5th placement......are you saying Chiron is also adding a kind of intuition?

I do deeply appreciate the insight from another perspective Raven!
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  #32  
Unread 06-11-2017, 12:46 PM
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

That sixth sense I think is down to the Pisces in your chart - your Sun in Pisces, the Moon opposite Pisces Mercury, and (as you mentioned, and I had almost forgotten) the Moon-Neptune square with Neptune in 12th. I also have the Moon-Neptune square, and I have always have a heightened instinct for people, especially in that moment of first impression. I know whether they can be trusted (or not), whether they are truthful or fake, etc, etc. A guy I knew when I was in my early 20's (and both of us were involved in a community group, where we had to deal with all kinds of people) once said to me, "You can sum someone up in around 2 minutes after meeting them, and you're always right." (Unfortunately for me I married, and later divorced, someone I'd detested on first meeting. I can remember thinking on first meeting him: `what a complete creep.' Why I ignored my own instinct and later thought he was so wonderful still baffles me to this day!!)

I find it interesting that the Moon-Neptune square can at once grant such insight and instinctual responses, and also be behind such crippling depression. Keep in mind that this degree of sensitivity means that we will be able to sense/pick up low moods and depression in others, and even in our line of heredity - both of which I have found that I do without even knowing it. Both these tendencies can lead us to experiencing depression which may not even be ours. It's easily done.

As for Chiron, that is a novel-sized topic all of its own. Just to summarise briefly, Chiron in a chart is the place where we are wounded - we come in to address these particular wounds - and even if we are not aware of it, we tend to create situations on our lives which lead us to having to address these wounds. The wound with Chiron in Aries in the 5th house is the wound of feeling/believing oneself to be unworthy, especially when it comes to how we express ourselves creatively. The Jupiter conjunction is one which can lead to what I mentioned in my post above, but it can lead to a level of arrogance, which is often little more than an overblown can-do approach to life. It is almost always expressed individually, rather than in collaboration, although someone with this conjunction in Libra, for instance, would be more likely to express it in collaboration with others. (Bill Clinton has Chiron conjunct Jupiter in Libra, and he dragged a lot of people along with him during the time he was attempting to prove himself, and was particularly silver-tongued - that's the Libra factor - about it.)
One especially eloquent expression of Chiron conjunct Jupiter was Orson Welles, who had Chiron-Jupiter conjunct in Pisces in the 10th house. At 25 he co-wrote, starred in, produced and directed "Citizen Kane", which scored 9 Oscar nominations in 1942. Prior to this, he'd read books on film-making, having not attempted to make a film before. That takes confidence.
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  #33  
Unread 06-11-2017, 01:09 PM
vanessanz vanessanz is offline
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

You've given me a lot to think about. I did know Chiron's symbolism was 'where you are wounded' but not much of what i've read about it has struck a chord with me. Both my Aunt & Uncle also have Chiron closely conjunct Jupiter. I've looked at their charts in the past trying to pinpoint the essence of the energy. My Jupiter/ Chiron is also in a 1'00 square to Saturn. Both my parents were very harsh in their criticisms of me growing up, which has been the root of my depression. The square to Saturn seems to cover this.
Dangerous to say never again, but since my brothers death depression hasn't been a problem. In the days after his death i had some very unusual experiences on a completely different level of reality. It felt like experiencing his post death reality the way he was feeling it, & it was very multi-sensory. The feeling of open joyful expansiveness & curiosity is impossible to describe. So anyway, i keep coming back to that feeling & that awareness, which changes my perspective substantially,& i'm not falling down black holes of despair


Fascinating snippet about Orson Welles by the way
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  #34  
Unread 06-11-2017, 01:25 PM
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

I just need to reply quickly to your comments about after your brother's death. Having had many experiences similar, I have a fair idea of what you mean. I had my oldest brother die in an `accident' when I was 13. Not only did I dream about it 5 years prior to his death (a dream full of symbols which predicted the head injury which killed him), but I also had a `knowledge' on the last morning that I saw him that I would not be seeing him again. He died 10 days later. Whist my parents were devastated after he died, I knew he was fine.

"The feeling of open joyful expansiveness & curiosity is impossible to describe."

Yep, that's the one.

And another point re Chiron-Jupiter conjunct, I also imagine with this placement people can crash and burn spectacularly. Pretty much the whole of your chart supports your own unique expression of the conjunct, while for others there may be moderators or even blockers to the full expression, depending on what the individual has come in to experience.
For instance, while the natal Saturn placement may hinder some, given you have a Saturn-ruled chart, your Saturn supports your chosen expression.
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Last edited by R4VEN; 06-11-2017 at 01:46 PM.
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  #35  
Unread 06-12-2017, 12:35 AM
vanessanz vanessanz is offline
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

You're the first person who has understood that experience, which i count as the most fundamental experience i've had....the few people i've talked to about it, gave off an aura of quietly thinking i was a bit delusional ....I also knew for years prior at an instinctual level that my brother & lover were on limited time. But, i didn't have your instinct about exactly when.

I just had a look at your chart...you also have the Moon - Neptune square exactly hitting up your MC! You just have it round the opposite way to me. Professional astrology or serious side passion? Actor? Artist? Counsellor?

I really enjoy chatting to you! Want to stay in contact?
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  #36  
Unread 09-18-2017, 09:41 PM
Aquarius86 Aquarius86 is offline
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

I have Cap on Asc, Saturn conj 8' Mars 10th house (mars 0') and I cut my veins when was really young, then tried to drown and when I got older and depressed I was looking on websites how to kill myself without giving myself too much pain. I also have Neptune 12th house.
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  #37  
Unread 09-19-2017, 01:37 AM
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Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart

Mars is often involved for death. Mercury Moon in challenge with Pluto or Neptune often. Depends on the reason and the way it was done, of course.
Saturn can be there for negative thinking and perhaps a chronic illness or pain of some sort. 12th house placements or transits as well as 8th house. I dont think Gemini is particularly an indicator unless mental illness was part of it.
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