Balancing Water and Air - a discussion

Whether or not you have water and air both strongly emphasised in your chart, you can use this thread to share and compare your struggles and breakthroughs in balancing these intrinsically opposite elements.

Watery consciousness adapts to life using the feeling function. We don't just have feelings about things - our very sense of being a person is founded upon the continuity of our feeling life. Our subjective and instinctual sense of what feels good or bad provides deep insight into people and situations, and connects us empathically and spiritually with others. Inspiration, imagination, and emotional and spiritual nourishment are some of the gifts of the chaotic waters of the feeling realm.

More negatively, water's fear of isolation can cause dependency and irrational anxiety - a cutting off from new perspectives and respect for the individuality of others.

Airy consciousness adapts to life using the thinking function. Life is evaluated according to conceptual frameworks (such as astrology) which help us to understand the (archetypal) lines along which things work. Through air we are able to expand the breadth of our existence through the detached inventiveness of the rational mind, seeing where improvements can be made. And through the thinking function we can maintain an objective stance from which civility and impartiality can be exercised, developing ethical frameworks to guide us. Clarity, innovation and social integration are some of the gifts of the crisp, clear air of the thinking realm.

More negatively, air's fear of chaos and emotional/instinctual confinement can cause detachment to the point of coldness - the loss of any sense of rootedness, and an inability to enjoy the warmth of intimacy with another human being.

Unfortunately I'll have to wait until later to share some of my own experiences of these elements as I have to go off somewhere. I'll start another thread about fire and earth later, too.

Thanks for taking part,

Ok, I'll get the ball rolling and hopefully others will join in.

Air is my strongest element in terms of my actual conscious values, and this does seem to show up in my chart - Sun, Mercury and North Node in Aquarius, with Uranus making many close aspects, including to the Aquarius planets.

Water is also strong for me, with Ascendant, Midheaven and the Moon in water. The Moon in Scorpio is a singleton by element, and rules the Cancer Ascendant. Pluto is also on the IC, adding to the Moon in Scorpio theme.

I think this has helped me to understand the difference between the centres of awareness symbolised by the Sun and Moon. I am centred in Aquarian values and I do essentially identify myself as an Aquarian. But I also experience strong emotional reactions to things which are gradually becoming less extreme of the years. When it comes to evaluating people, my Aquarian equanimity tends to have to play second fiddle to my gut feelings and sensitivities, but when it comes to my underlying strategy for dealing with life, the airy need for understanding and predictability is stronger.

So I think much of my life has involved me making airy defences against painful feelings. This was my motivation for picking up my first astrology book, and before that I was doing a degree in moral philosophy which focused on the treatment of animals by society(I think I identify with animals being abused by society on account of the Moon in Scorpio, and the quincunx to Chiron in the 10th.) This was accompanied by involvement with groups such as the Animal Liberation Front, echoing the extremes of Aquarius/Uranus and Pluto/Scorpio.

True to my Sun in Aquarius in the 8th sesquiquadrate Uranus in the 4th, and Pluto on the IC quincunx the Sun, my father was psychologically extremely absent, so I guess I've had to look to different planes of consciousness to bolster an unvalidated Solar sense of worth.

My relationship with my Mother was very difficult because I had very strong emotional needs which she didn't feel willing or able to attend to.

My feelings around parenting have always been very strong, true to the Scorpio Moon being in the 5th, and with my daughter, who is now 15, I did seem to try to defend myself against hurt in this area (and defend my children against perceived potential hurt that was probably largely projected) through trying to control. The subjectivity of this Moon in its approach to parenting is thankfully far less extreme this time round with my Son, who is now 5. (Though they have both 'inherited' my Pluto on the IC, and also both have natal Moon Pluto contacts.)

And of course I read various books about parenting and looked at my children's natal charts, true to my Aquarian defences against chaos and suffering. (Not that I see these defences as inherently negative when in proportion with other ways of being.)

I suppose I see things now in terms of needing to relax the airy defences and honour my feelings with awareness.

Hi Miquar!

I've very strong water in my chart, the only air planet however is Mars.

Calming the air can be difficult (Mercury square Uranus, Uranus square MC and inconjunct AC, Mars sextile MC, Mars in Gemini) but for me Water is much more troublesome. I'm way too apt to feeling and hearing things at times when I need a drier, earthier reaction. Strong water in an ambitious male that seeks leadership positions is a tough job in itself. I try hard to focus on my fire planets to get me out.

Water, I've Cancer ASC, Venus in Pisces, Mercury on Pisces MC, Pluto in Scorpio. Once in while I'll find a day where I feel SOAKED in feeling and emotion and after years of difficulty getting that now I wait for the day to pass and wake up afterwards strong as the earth again.

I count on an Aries Sun and Jupiter to push myself when I need it, Sun trine Saturn and Moon in Virgo (3rd) to dry up that mystical mess.

Hi miquar.

I have been thinking about your thread all day, and I think we starting exploring some of these ideas before on another thread.

I wonder if we should give consideration to the quality of the air/water combination, as well as the exact placements. The reason I say this is because I also have a lot of air in my chart as you know, but it is all Libra air. Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and ASC (and Uranus if you use him.) All of these oppose by degree (not sign) a Pisces Moon. I believe you mentioned the idea of balancing air and water, and what could be more about doing so than an opposition aspect? Toss the scales into the mix and it really does become all about balance?

I know that air is associated with detachment, but I think this particular adjective doesn't (haha) do air justice. Consider that all the air signs are human signs. This implies a "human" or emotional quality (since at the very base of it we are driven by our needs/wants/emotions.) I would consider that air isn't so much about detaching as it is about transcending, or getting beyond the hazy film of emotion to be able to react logically and think clearly.

Another thing to consider is the pairing/dichotomy you have proposed. Is air really the opposite of water, and fire of earth? Again if we look at the wheel of the zodiac, we find air as the opposite of fire--Libra/Aries, Aquarius/Leo, and Gemini/Sagittarius. I am just curious about choosing to contrast them this way?

Wouldn't we want to incorporate the concepts of quality along with the elements? For example, in your chart you have fixed air (Aquarius) in fixed house (8th) squaring fixed water (Scorpio) in fixed house (5th.) Could this possibly signify a rigidity to the expressions of these energies? May we think that cardinal water (Cancer) is a fast flowing river, or a fire hose, contained and yet powerfully driven in its course, able to quickly change the landscape or erode what gets in it's way? Fixed water then would be like ice, frozen and solid...and yet even glaciers are not truly solid (much like glass) as they move over time and the changes they make are deeply evident. Mutable water? Perhaps like the rain that falls where it falls, sometimes in torrents that cause flooding, and sometimes as a gentle mist.

The same types of analogies can be drawn for each of the elements, but the signs are what will give us a clue as to how the energy will manifest?

For me, it appears that there is a lack of fire in my chart. All that air in Libra in 1st opposing Pisces Moon in 6th suggests that my rational, detached, thinking 1st house is at odds with the emotional drive of sensitive Moon that wants to serve, and what makes it really neato is that the opposition is squared by Mars in 4th exalted in earth, and he in turn participates in a grand trine with Venus and Saturn, also in earth signs.

But...Libra. The sign of relating? The sign of balance, and finding justice for everyone? The sign of the strategist, or tactician, who can weigh all the human factors, and still make the tough decisions? Fighting for balance with an extremely intuitive and sensitive Moon.

However, there is always more to the chart, and that is why it is good to understand broad concepts, yet still realize that we must synthesize instead of generalize?

I can look at my air/water opposition this way. I think. A lot. Constantly, and about everything. What I am really good at is problem solving, and also finding the correlation between disparate concepts. Some chalk this up to Uranus conjunct Sun, but I can see it without Uranus, as both Mercury and Jupiter are on the ASC. Some say Libra is indecisive, yet I have never personally found that to be the case. I suppose if we extrapolate the stereotype of Libra considering all options we can come to an (possibly) erroneous conclusion that this would lead to an inability to decide...but really? The scales weigh and balance, and justice/judges decide. There is nothing inherently indecisive about Libra air. Gemini air, being mutable, would be more likely to vacillate between ideas and take off in the direction of the next great argument.

All this thinking and deciding is performed in a human sign that is about relating, and offset by a Moon know to be intuitive. For me, the Libra air planets combined with the Moon's energy grant the ability to be empathetic to human conditions and emotions, and to weigh and judge a variety of factors (for example, word choice, facial expression, body language and a host of other factors) that actually allow me to "read" a situation more accurately than would be expected.

As for a lack of fire, which has been pointed out to me on many occasions, there are other more subtle factors to consider. All of my angles are in cardinal houses. This provides impetus in every area of my life, what we might usually attribute to the element of fire can be found in the quality of the angles.

The joys and sorrows, the struggles, both internal and external, that I have faced and that are yet to come, I think will be shown more by my own personal chart and placements than just by considering the energy of the elements. Though the elemental energy of those placements will be a big factor, I think it's still tough to pin it down to one element vs. the other.

This is such a post for me! I would say it does make life a bit complicated. I'm sun/asc Cancer/Pisces respectively but the rest of my chart is dominantly air. Well said bout water's dependency creating irrational anxiety over isolation & air's need for detachment to cause undue complications in relationships. With a Moon, Venus, mercury & Mars all in air signs despite my emotional needs I take the intellectual road & remain aloof.

To further support my air is the Libran Moon Sq Sun which leaves me stranded with ONE-side of the ground. I tend to rationalise the hurt when others walk away (after I give them lots of cold treatment) & feel resentful but rationally know that it was my own attitude. (I think Gemini Venus helps with that).

And Venus-Uranus Opp + Moon-Sx-Uranus defends the whole scene by sticking to the insecure attachment style of One-foot-in-One-foot-out. I rarely form intimate relationships & even when I have someone really admiring me & wanting me I find ways to actually make them leave so the game keeps on going.

I never understood why being a Cancer Sun I couldn't relate to the obsession of Motherhood & Marriage till I started studying astrology. Over years of observing myself I realised that my constant fight against being in a relationship was a fear of rejection/abandonment so I remain flippant preferring absolute independence instead of resorting to the relationship comfort so-direly needed by a Cancerian.
Well, it's working so far, so good!

Love to follow on more responses.

I agree with tsmall in saying that quality of elements is relevant. Personally I associate Cancer with fullness of the ocean, Scorpio with ice, and Pisces with the ebb and flow on the shoreline. My own perspective is to look toward the elements quincunx the sign in question for what is most relevant to be identified, learned and integrated. For example, Aquarius would be quincunx Cancer and Virgo. Both signs offer Aquarius what is lacking in its element, though the extent is left to be determined by the chart as a whole. Cancer offers Aquarius lessons in loyalty and faithfulness, as well as getting in touch with the sympathetic feeling nature for others that would benefit Aquarius by giving it a more penetrating connection through its love for humanity. Virgo, on the other hand, offers insightful discernment for differentiating those whimsical impulses from more meaningful expressions to truly offer service to humanity. Aquarian idealism is afforded a suitable channel via discernment and applied service.

Having Venus in Aquarius, I've found the above to be quite true for myself. The opposite sign shouldn't be dismissed, however. I find that Leo does offer Aquarius a sense of self to pull it back down into awareness of its egoic individuality, as it seems so easy for Aquarius to lose sight of that important piece of identity that is the self. In short, the specific opposing elements offer complementary balance, and the quincunxes offer supplemental traits, all of which combine to form a well-rounded expression when integrated. I often find myself sacrificing for the greater good of the group. While that's true to the virtues of Aquarian group ideals, if the individuality isn't nourished then contribution to the group is hindered. It should be noted that Venus is an air singleton by sign in my chart, unless Chiron is included. Regardless, I feel the Aquarian air is quite refined.

Concerning water, I have Mars and Pluto in Scorpio, and five planets occupying the 4th house. I'm quite sensitive with intense feelings and very intuitive. I'm very private though, with most of my world lying beneath the surface. Using airy rationality in conjunction with earthy grounding is very likely the only thing that has kept me from being swept away by the waters of emotion. I realize that air must work with and learn from water rather than avoid it. Rationality is easily used as an escape to avoid feeling and the intimate connections of relationships. Being connected makes air feel confined and desperate for an escape, longing for its freedom; but those rich bonds are what give life its meaning. Rationality would be devoid of purpose if the intrinsic meaning behind it isn't embraced as a vital facet of the picture as a whole. Likewise, too much emphasis on watery feeling would prompt irrationality and oversensitivity, possibly leaving the individual rather unstable.

miquar said:

When it comes to evaluating people, my Aquarian equanimity tends to have to play second fiddle to my gut feelings and sensitivities, but when it comes to my underlying strategy for dealing with life, the airy need for understanding and predictability is stronger.

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This resonates with me. Mercury Libra quincunx Jupiter in Pisces, plus Scorpio rising, overall a strong dose of Water squaring off against Mercury (ruler of Virgo Sun). Anyway.... Lots of gut feelings about people, issues, situations, but then Mercury kicks in and says, "Wait a minute... let's think about this, let's WEIGH the pros and cons." Ugh. So tedious. And whenever I have a "big idea" that excites me, Mercury just picks at it.

Back and forth, forth and back. I'm never quite sure whether to base my final opinion (if there is one!) on applying some of that crisp, clear Air thinking to get a good perspective -- or just going with the ol' gut. As I've matured, it has become easier to balance the two, but I am very aware of the NEED to balance them.

***

BTW, as usual, your writing is very elegant. A pleasure to read. Though personally, the 'pure' energies of elements don't rev my motor. Too many realities of specific signs, houses, and aspects muddying the waters in individual charts needing to be synthesized. Nevertheless, interesting!

Wow. I'm so glad I started this thread. Such deep and thoughtful answers to reflect on and learn from.

byjove said:

Hi Miquar!

I've very strong water in my chart, the only air planet however is Mars.

Calming the air can be difficult (Mercury square Uranus, Uranus square MC and inconjunct AC, Mars sextile MC, Mars in Gemini) but for me Water is much more troublesome. I'm way too apt to feeling and hearing things at times when I need a drier, earthier reaction. Strong water in an ambitious male that seeks leadership positions is a tough job in itself. I try hard to focus on my fire planets to get me out.

Water, I've Cancer ASC, Venus in Pisces, Mercury on Pisces MC, Pluto in Scorpio. Once in while I'll find a day where I feel SOAKED in feeling and emotion and after years of difficulty getting that now I wait for the day to pass and wake up afterwards strong as the earth again.

I count on an Aries Sun and Jupiter to push myself when I need it, Sun trine Saturn and Moon in Virgo (3rd) to dry up that mystical mess.

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It interested me that you consistently describe your watery side a little negatively: relying on your fire to get you out of 'troublesome' watery receptivity; feeling 'soaked' and waiting 'for the day to pass'; needing to 'dry up all that mystical mess'.

The Ascendant, Mercury and Venus say so much about how we interact with others. And they all need you to honour your feeling life to realise their full potential.

Its interesting also in the light of the point that tsmall makes about the possible arbitrariness declaring two elements opposites, when actually in your case it seems to be more your fire and earth that blocks your willingness to value your watery side.

Hi tsmall. Thanks for writing such a long and considered post.

My take on air as the more 'human' element might be slightly different to yours, but I'm not assuming that you're wrong and I'm right. I see each element as symbolising a function of consciousness in the Jungian sense - a way of adapting to life. Air is the only element using exclusively humans and a human invention as their 'mascot'.

(Of course Sagittarius' archer carries a bow and arrow, and Virgo is the maiden. But Sagittarius and Virgo are the most airy of the signs after the actual air signs. Also, the archer is a centaur rather than a human, and one could also argue that the bow and arrow is not as civilised an invention as the scales! The scales IMO symbolise the human capacity for objectivity rather than capacity to measure the correct mass of something, which is surely an earthy quality.)

But anyway, I see air as the element which the human race holds as an ideal way of adapting to life - civilised, just and inventive. It is the intellect that separates us most obviously from the other animals with whom we share the Earth. So while I agree that the air element is the one which humanity as a whole most strongly identifies with, I also believe that all of the elements are a part of human nature (and life in general) and that the feeling side of human psychology does belong in the realm of water.

I do agree that the qualities are very important. My chart is extremely fixed, with Saturn in Taurus in the 11th exactly aspecting my Sun/Moon midpoint on top of the placements I mentioned in my post about my own experiences of air and water. But my own view is that the elements are indicators of a more fundamental facet of one's conscious orientation.

I guess the thing about Gemini is that it doesn't care about how things work out in the way that Libra does - Gemini just wants to satisfy its curiosity. Libra, being cardinal, needs to push forward decisively. It has a goal in mind, and that goal is an ideal system of interaction which is just and conducive to harmony. (I'm particularly open to you challenging all this as I have no personal planets or angles in Libra). Sometimes Libra may feel that the only way to keep things in balance is to remain in a state of deliberation, rather than committing to jumping onto one side of the scales.

But I do agree that Libra need not be indecisive, and apparently the sign is common amongst strategic geniuses in the armed forces. Where there is indecision, the complementary energy of Aries is perhaps lacking, and all signs need to express the energy of the opposite sign to some extent in order to manifest healthily. Liz Greene suggests that Librans may come across as indecisive, but they are often just finding out what everyone else thinks so that when they implement the decision they made from the start, they can do so in a way that creates less discord!

I paired the elements in this way partly because this is the model that Jung came up with, and partly because, as someone with a personal planet in each element, my own experience is that fire and earth are in conflict within me, as are air and water.

Looking at the other possibilities, the air and earth signs all share traditional rulers. And apart from Cancer and Leo, so do the fire and water signs. And it seems obvious to me how each of these pairings can be brought together relatively easily under a single conscious value system.

And then there is the possibility of fire and air being opposites, and also earth and water. This would involve two yang elements as opposite (fire and air) and also two yin elements. Also, looking at each sign polarity, e.g. Aries-Libra, or Taurus-Scorpio, although there is some kind of tug-of-war going on with each polarity, it seems to me that in each case the signs are worried about being compromised by the values of one another because of something shared between them that means that this could happen very easily. Opposite signs have a great deal in common.

But air and water are the yang and yin ways of evaluating things, and fire and earth are the yang and yin ways of perceiving things, according to Jung. When we decide what something is, we can either do so in a yang, fiery way which involves a creative process of inferring meaning and possibility, or we can do so in a yin, earthy way which involves a receptive process of simply experiencing the thing as it is. When we evaluate whether something is good/right or bad/wrong, we can either do so in a yang , airy way which involves the creation of a conceptual framework by which to assess that thing, or in a yin, watery way which involves being receptive to the feelings which arise in response to the thing.

So this is why I chose the pairings I did. But perhaps there should be other discussions about how the other combinations get on, with Byjove's post being a case in point.

I'll look forward to replying to the other posts later this evening...

Hi Blackempress. Its interesting for me that you have Sun in water and Moon in air, where as I am the other way round. I sometimes think of the Sun as having a kind of broad rulership over the fire and air signs, i.e. the yang signs, and the Moon the yin signs, in which case you could be said to have a kind of mutual reception. Bare with me...

Feelings are very much contained in the body, in my experience, in a way that thoughts and visions aren't. An idea or inspiration might give us a passing tingle as it first arises, but feelings can be located in the body for as long as we can feel them. So sensations and feelings are corporeal phenomena and both come under the general governance of the Moon, which symbolises our experience of being in a body, and also the body as an organ of experience.

The Sun is a symbol of that in us which insists that we are more than a mere body which will one day be nothing but compost. Fire and air allow us to step outside the lunar realm, where we experience the world moment-by-moment through a predetermined program of physical/emotional/instinctual responses, and into a sense of an eternal dimension where we are free to think and imagine whatever we like without the restrictions of time and space.

So your Lunar instinct is to seek emotional security on a plane where you are free of the confinement of instinctual responses and the march of time. And your Solar sense of timeless significance is found through immersing yourself in the feelings arising in the present moment and the cyclical nature of emotional experience.

In other words, Sun in a yin sign and Moon in a yang sign are each inherently paradoxical IMO. But they create a circuit by feeding into one another's inherent natures according to these paradoxical sign placements. This is the same kind of circuit we find in an ordinary/traditional mutual reception.

Sun in water is a placement I've often been intrigued by, because water values/defends the experience of emotional fusion with someone or something, but the Sun god Apollo does not have a happy relationship or family life of any kind - he must stand alone because he is a symbol of the part of us which must be prepared to stand alone. So the Sun isn't essentially looking for any validation or approval - its energy pushes out from the centre. The Sun in Cancer suggests that the Solar energy flows better in the right emotional atmosphere, whether this is created by a group of people or a connection with the inner feeling life. But as individuation proceeds, there is only the need to nurture - a receptivity to the emotional needs of others (or the promptings of the imaginal realm), but without being dependent on them responding in a particular way.

Its interesting that you would 'kill for individuality'. You perhaps need to 'kill' the part of yourself that guards against the flow of feelings - your path to Solar individuality takes you away from the clarity of air, and into the chaotic and unpredictable waters of your feeling life.

Hi Stainedblue. I thought your post was really interesting and well written. I read it through a couple of times to get the most out of it!

Hi Judy. Yes, back and forth - I know what you mean. It doesn't feel safe to ignore my gut feelings about things, but they're just so jolly uncivilised a lot of the time!

Judy_AzVirgo said:

Personally, the 'pure' energies of elements don't rev my motor. Too many realities of specific signs, houses, and aspects muddying the waters in individual charts needing to be synthesized.

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That's Aquarians for you. Pure as the driven snow! (which falls as we have our Solar returns!)

Miquar, thanks for starting this thread. I definitely have been pondering it for the past couple of days and I've wanted to contribute... However, it seems that it escapes me how to actually write about it. I'm not very good at explaining how my emotional nature merges with my mental nature and how to balance these elements in my life... That statement, I feel, is explained by the contents of my chart.

Air is dominant in my chart with Water being a close second. As you can see, my Luminaries occupy Air signs in Water houses. Mercury is in Scorpio.

I think a lot. I'm a very active thinker and love to think deeply on subjects that interest me. I can change subjects quickly and often. All of this I attribute to Moon in Gemini which feels by thinking and Merc in Scorp that likes to probe. I think the interplay between my Moon and Mercury allows for much feeling thru thinking. However, there can be considerable noise there. Too many thoughts going everywhere sometimes that can cause a lack of connection with the deeper source...

When I was younger, I'd say I was very detached emotionally. I would be very rational in my emotional expression. I could largely be cool as ice in most situations. I still can but it's more difficult now. Maybe you could say I was emotionless to a certain extent? I'm unsure. Regardless, I just don't think the feeling nature was quite awake when I was younger... I now feel that it was so by design. It protected me in my early life where there was considerable instability.

As I've matured, a deep sensitivity has emerged. I realize now that I'm deeply emotional. Much more so than most of... well just about anyone that I know. Possibly it was the Saturn return that activated that 12th house Moon that caused this profound change. I'm not sure. Maybe I never contemplated that I might have been emotional? Whatever it was, recognizing my emotional nature and tapping into it certainly has been a blessing... I've also read that having quincunx aspects can make one compartmentalize.

I've been working on integrating my heart and mind more recently because in order for me to be complete, I must acknowledge my emotional nature as I move forward. After all, to be emotional is to be human in my mind (lol). Otherwise we're more like computers. My initial response is always very logical/rational. However, I may not feel how I initially respond (say in a conversation for example)... I may not completely understand how I feel initially, after some time, or ever... After some (random) amount of time, feelings start bubbling up to be acknowledged. All of this, I think can be explained by that Moon in the 12th. There are aspects of my emotional nature that I don't completely understand and may never understand. All I know is that it's deep even with it placed in Gemini.

I think my chart may be one of learning lessons in merging energies.

miquar said:

The Sun in Cancer suggests that the Solar energy flows better in the right emotional atmosphere, whether this is created by a group of people or a connection with the inner feeling life. But as individuation proceeds, there is only the need to nurture - a receptivity to the emotional needs of others (or the promptings of the imaginal realm), but without being dependent on them responding in a particular way.

Its interesting that you would 'kill for individuality'. You perhaps need to 'kill' the part of yourself that guards against the flow of feelings - your path to Solar individuality takes you away from the clarity of air, and into the chaotic and unpredictable waters of your feeling life.

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Eloquent! You tempted me to look at it at a deeper level. Thanks.

The Reason for individuation for me probably began very early because of my well placed 9th Uranus in Saggi. I've always wanted it 'my own way'. I hate anyone with my name or imitating what I wear etc. I remember this feeling in the early teens & am now stronger about it.
The 'kill' was pointed nicely by R4ven in one of the threads as Midpoint (Pluto) btw my Uranus-sx-Moon.

The Solar Cancer, I think I'm already in form to simply give/nurture others through various of my abilities-healing as doctor & psychoanalyst.

Blackempress said:

The Solar Cancer, I think I'm already in form to simply give/nurture others through various of my abilities-healing as doctor & psychoanalyst.

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Yes that sounds like a great channel for you Sun in Cancer. As Steven Forrest points out in The Inner Sky, Cancer's greatest strength is its capacity to nurture and support others. But he also reminds the reader that the role of helper can become a shell which obscures the emotional vulnerability of the helper by focusing on the vulnerability of the person needing the help. I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to have a dynamic between two people in which one is nurturing the other - its obviously very important at times, especially obviously in the relationship between parent and child. But if one's own emotional wounds aren't acknowledged and felt, the role becomes the shell and, as Forrest puts it, 'both people are robbed of their humanity.'

As a Cancer rising I am myself only gradually becoming more aware of this same blind spot as the years go by. The wounded healer is a theme which many Cancer types have to grapple with, IMO. As air types, emotional vulnerability will set alarm bells ringing. But perhaps we should be more worried when we don't feel vulnerable!

Thanks again for your interesting thoughts and disclosures.

miquar said:

I guess the thing about Gemini is that it doesn't care about how things work out in the way that Libra does - Gemini just wants to satisfy its curiosity. Libra, being cardinal, needs to push forward decisively. It has a goal in mind, and that goal is an ideal system of interaction which is just and conducive to harmony. (I'm particularly open to you challenging all this as I have no personal planets or angles in Libra). Sometimes Libra may feel that the only way to keep things in balance is to remain in a state of deliberation, rather than committing to jumping onto one side of the scales.

But I do agree that Libra need not be indecisive, and apparently the sign is common amongst strategic geniuses in the armed forces. Where there is indecision, the complementary energy of Aries is perhaps lacking, and all signs need to express the energy of the opposite sign to some extent in order to manifest healthily. Liz Greene suggests that Librans may come across as indecisive, but they are often just finding out what everyone else thinks so that when they implement the decision they made from the start, they can do so in a way that creates less discord!

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As a holder of Libra Stellium I would definitely agree to this especially because of my moon there & double because Aries (favorite sign) for me is an empty sign. Indecision is I suppose a less evolved version of it but 'take time to decide & find harmony in the way of another' is definitely Libra. Now coming to terms with my own abilities I learnt that I make a wonderful moderator instead of an assertive leader & at the end everyone including myself are happy. For me I find it annoying but for others it comes across as pleasant personality. (projected through 7th house).

miquar said:

Yes that sounds like a great channel for you Sun in Cancer. As Steven Forrest points out in The Inner Sky, Cancer's greatest strength is its capacity to nurture and support others. But he also reminds the reader that the role of helper can become a shell which obscures the emotional vulnerability of the helper by focusing on the vulnerability of the person needing the help. I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to have a dynamic between two people in which one is nurturing the other - its obviously very important at times, especially obviously in the relationship between parent and child. But if one's own emotional wounds aren't acknowledged and felt, the role becomes the shell and, as Forrest puts it, 'both people are robbed of their humanity.'

As a Cancer rising I am myself only gradually becoming more aware of this same blind spot as the years go by. The wounded healer is a theme which many Cancer types have to grapple with, IMO. As air types, emotional vulnerability will set alarm bells ringing. But perhaps we should be more worried when we don't feel vulnerable!

Thanks again for your interesting thoughts and disclosures.

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I can relate to using another's vulnerability than exposing my own but with dominant air, I somehow feel it's very difficult to really settle down emotionally albeit I've noticed that if I DON'T meet someone with the intention of a relationship as per say but rather an intellectual activity (e.g: Game buddy) I end up forming a strong emotional bond/attachment.

You're most welcome. The pleasure's been mine.

Yes, if I understand you properly, I can relate to what you say. I might realise that I feel an emotional connection with someone and find it surprising because there was never any intention of having any such dynamic. I'm learning to just let these connections be there so that my emotional inner life is enriched by that person passing in and out of my awareness. These dynamics I think are more common in female-female friendships where there is a greater tendency to express warmth. I feel it in my friendships with women rather than men, regardless of whether or not there is any sexual chemistry there, but the fact that I am a heterosexual male and the friends have in each case been heterosexual females makes me hold back in engaging emotionally too much in an overt way - too much potential for misinterpretation. And yet since this has always happened with female friends, I must assume that part of this emotional connection is linked in some way with sexuality. And I think this is an example of how the mind is limited in its capacity to understand the ambiguity and blurring that we find in the feeling realm.

One thing I've noticed that I think is helpful in the development of the feeling life, which I have mentioned before probably, is that feelings are much more rooted in the body than thoughts. To be in the body is to be closer to the feeling realm, I would say, and the pursuit of rational thought is often an attempt to escape the immediacy (karma?) of the body and feelings. Of course we need a certain amount of detachment in order not to be swept along by our subjective responses to things and our bodily appetites. There is perhaps a happy medium where the mind provides an independent standpoint without shutting out or manipulating feeling responses.

We've all focused on the need to develop the feeling life due to an innate tendency to stay in a rational way of being. It would be good to hear from people with well developed feeling functions who are trying to develop their thinking function.

Yes, you got it totally correct. I agree to using these encounters as a chance to explore my own emotional realm & frankly it is easier than regular relationships. It is very much more common between women & admitted it has something to do with sexuality.

Feeling a body response is a food for thought. I'll look this up!

Miquar, thank you for starting this really interesting thread!!
I've been wanting to contribute for a couple of days, still not sure how to put my feelings and ideas into words, but i'll give it a go..

My chart is predominantly water with Pisces Asc and Venus (the ruler of my Sun and Moon signs) also in Pisces conjunct Saturn and Chiron. Neptune, the Asc ruler is in Scorpio conjunct the SN and trine my Piscean planets, so lots of water.. As for air my Moon is in Libra in the 8th house and Jupiter in Gemini in the 4th, so both are, although in air signs, in water houses. To balance all the water I have some quite strong Earth placements, Sun and Mars conjunct in Taurus trine Pluto/Uranus in Virgo.

I feel in our western culture we frequently grow up without learning to understand and develop much of our feeling nature, it is much more acceptable to be rational and emotionally controlled or contained. Emotions don't seem to be easily dealt with. Most people don't quite know how to respond to someone else being emotional and it may make them feel awkward..
So growing up in this cultural environment, people with a strong emotional nature often don't easily learn how to handle and integrate their deep feelings. A very common response is to suppress feelings as much as possible, so as not to get overwhelmed by it all and also for fear of not being understood by others. By doing this all the emotions may only bubble up once in a while, but then they can often end up being out of one's control.. this has been my experience anyway. As others have also written in this thread it is only when getting older that one slowly learns to understand and integrate one's emotional side.

It's been the same for me, when i was a teenager and even in my twenties, i wouldn't have considered myself an emotional person - i just couldn't see it then, also didn't have a concept at the time of what it meant to be emotional, i was pretty much disconnected from that part of myself. Looking back now i can see that i was very emotional at times, but I tried to keep the lid on as much as possible. In my family it wasn't really acceptable to be emotional, feelings were mostly denied and suppressed - not understood or expressed, apart from the occasional outburst.
Getting older i slowly discovered just how emotional i actually am and it felt at first quite frightening, since i had no idea how to deal with this side of myself constructively. I've only slowly been learning to accept my feelings as an ok part of myself, not in denial any more. When my inner feeling world gets a bit intense i tend to withdraw to try and work things out by myself, also sometimes just waiting till the storm is over..
Learning to use my rational mind (air) to try and sort out what's going on instead of just being lost in the big waves, can be helpful at times.

I also have a tendency to pick up everybody else's feelings and feel them as my own - this has often added to the confusion. It's taken me time and discrimination to begin learning to distinguish between my feelings and those of other's which don't belong to me. More and more i'm managing to stay centered and not to get pulled into other people's emotional worlds as much as before. Still very often i find crowds and busy places overwhelming and draining.

My approach to life has radically changed during the last few years. When i was younger i often felt confused when having to make decisions and when trying to be rational about things, i found it very difficult to get any clarity (Libra moon + Pisces Ascendant). Whereas now i kind of flow through life with more ease and trust my intuition to make the right decisions for me - probably my Pisces ascendant taking over, without thinking things through on a rational level very much at all - for me trying a rational approach to decision-making only creates mental confusion. It often baffles people close to me when i'll only do what feels right and not something planned or thought out. They will ask "when or how will you do this?" or "what will you do about that?" or tell me "you will have to think what to do.." and i just don't know until i feel what it is that i have to do. My rational mind has absolutely no part in this.
I just hope this doesn't sound too weird, i guess it's not how most people deal with things, but it works for me...

Blackempress said:

Feeling a body response is a food for thought. I'll look this up!

Click to expand...

I laughed when I read this. A classic airy response! Like looking in the mirror!

Hi Bina. I think I know what you mean. When I reflect on it (thanks for instigating that) I see that I never make a decision without feeling my way through it, even though my rational mind may run through some logistics. When I use my rational mind it tends to be more about trying to understand why I need to do something, rather than deciding what to do. Even when I realise I must do something which feels unpleasant in some way, there is a deeper feeling of realising that it must be done.

All this makes me wonder what the mental faculty is for. 'Invention', I guess is the answer that comes to me. I'm not sure that feelings are any good for finding brand new ways of looking at things.

And I suppose impartiality - a voice disconnected from the partisan feelings that says, 'Well according to my reading of the situation, you might want to dig a bit deeper and see if you are genuinely happy with doing what you currently feel like doing.' Air is often associated with ethical frameworks. I once heard someone describe following the Buddhist precepts as tying yourself to the mast of the ship so that the stormy sea of emotion doesn't wash you overboard.

Emotions certainly weren't welcome in my early environment either - especially mine. You can probably get the picture from my chart on a post near the start of the thread. Natal Uranus is probably aspecting my Ascendant/Midheaven midpoint as well, just to throw petrol on the fire. I suppose I was what they call the 'identified patient' who acts out the feelings that no one else in the family is willing to look at in themselves. It really really hurt. The angrier I got, the more ashamed I was made to feel. And the more ashamed I was made to feel, the angrier I got. The pain is much quieter now, but its a funny thing knowing that I've never known myself (or life) through clear, loving eyes - that there's a suit of armour under my skin that I may always be there to some extent.