Are we looking at Chiron wrong?

I believe Chiron says more about "purpose" for being here than it does about a personality trait or struggle. You don't struggle with Chiron, you are the warrior.

I came to this conclusion by examining Chiron in the 5th. I thought it would relate to some sort of "those who can't do, teach" philosophy but it doesn't stick with me.

I believe Chiron in the 5th for example, can symbolize the first born child, or a child born to remedy a romantic situation. It can even stand for "Love child" as in, you were conceived during an intense romantic situation.

Basically, it speaks more about the situation surrounding the person's birth, and the person's purpose in life. It doesn't speak to traits or wrong doings. If I use the DK foundation's definition of the 5th house, it's "others provide recognition and confirmation". And I guess this sum's up my belief.

Post your Chiron placement, and tell me if my interpretation is correct

I have Chiron in the 11th house, this is a universal house (DK foundation definition), "Political and pressure groups, the armed forces; indeed any kind of organisation with a strong identity and sense of esprit enables a person to hitch his cart to a larger star and make a difference."

During my nodal return (10 years ago), a major theme was me joining a national organization, suddenly for the first time in my life, I was concerned about larger issues (structure, leadership, I even staged a "coup" to overthrow what I believed was faulty leadership..lol..it was small but the themes are what matters).

Looking for discussion.

Going through my Chiron Return now I'm 51...

5th house Pisces ..Chiron conjunt Saturn
I have no idea who my father is.. first born "Love child "...agree. and that wound never healed. It still niggles at me every day. my own children have been a source of disappointment..

I need some more reading material myself. I would like to get hold of Melamie Reinharts book. The Healing Journey.

as a Chiron return, we have experienced each house, with some ability to help and heal others .

Luney said:

Going through my Chiron Return now I'm 51...

5th house Pisces ..Chiron conjunt Saturn
I have no idea who my father is.. first born "Love child "...agree. and that wound never healed. It still niggles at me every day. my own children have been a source of disappointment..

I need some more reading material myself. I would like to get hold of Melamie Reinharts book. The Healing Journey.

as a Chiron return, we have experienced each house, with some ability to help and heal others .

Click to expand...

Following the theme, it could mean that you will provide others with recognition and confirmation. And I guess this fits with the "wounded healer" definition, kinda. I just wrote in my notebook "Chiron as the manifestation of purpose". So maybe you will be a warrior to some 5th house related cause. Maybe you will begin helping one of your children through something, or something created by you will help someone?

I think my main point is that while a person's experience in this life will help their placement of Chiron manifest, you may not be necessarily offering help just because "you know what's it's like". You may be offering help because it's a purpose you serve. Almost like your Chiron placements gives all the energies of your chart, a space to "save the day".

I'm going in circles now lol but I'm making a case against the whole "Chiron in X house? You may have experienced trouble in xyz..."

And maybe it's all of these things!

Luney said:

Going through my Chiron Return now I'm 51...

5th house Pisces ..Chiron conjunt Saturn
I have no idea who my father is.. first born "Love child "...agree. and that wound never healed. It still niggles at me every day. my own children have been a source of disappointment..

I need some more reading material myself. I would like to get hold of Melamie Reinharts book. The Healing Journey.

as a Chiron return, we have experienced each house, with some ability to help and heal others .

Click to expand...

Also what is your North Node placement?

Here are some online resources on Chiron which you can dive into. It'll help to round out your research efforts.

http://www.zanestein.com/chiron_a.htm ( the old internet had so much character)
http://theinnerwheel.com/category/chiron/

Could you elaborate what you mean by the word purpose?

conspiracy theorist said:

Here are some online resources on Chiron which you can dive into. It'll help to round out your research efforts.

http://www.zanestein.com/chiron_a.htm ( the old internet had so much character)
http://theinnerwheel.com/category/chiron/

Could you elaborate what you mean by the word purpose?

Click to expand...

By purpose I mean that before you are birthed in the hospital, you have a purpose to fulfill while here. A job to do or a slot to feel.

This is a little off topic but I'm also toying with the idea that charts that have a lot of planets or significant planets in the 12th house, don't really have as much control over their journey. Meaning no matter what, this person is unconsciously walking a narrow path (down whatever kind of road their are meant to walk).

InfoOverload2 said:

By purpose I mean that before you are birthed in the hospital, you have a purpose to fulfill while here. A job to do or a slot to feel.

This is a little off topic but I'm also toying with the idea that charts that have a lot of planets or significant planets in the 12th house, don't really have as much control over their journey. Meaning no matter what, this person is unconsciously walking a narrow path (down whatever kind of road their are meant to walk).

Click to expand...

Planets can be in any of the houses and natives have no control over their journey. That is because no one has control over their journey. You have control over your behaviour. Sometimes . But that's just about it for any of us, you will come to find, if you have not already experienced that truth.

Also, I do hope you had a chance to inform yourself on some of the Chiron symbolism that CT recommended. Chiron was very civilized, and a teacher. I have not ever seen the mythology of Chiron charactize him as a warrior. The other centaurs were, but not Chiron.

His inability to die because of his partial divinity, though painfully wounded, is a key element of his symbolism. Another element of his painful wounding was his mother's rejection of him when he was born.
He is one who proceeds and serves in the face of great pain.

Also is Chiron chilling with anyone in your chart? Like isnhe Conj other bodies, mine is hanging with Pluto (also with BlackMoon Lilith). So I have Pluto (the all or nothing) and Chiron (the wounded healer) both square my moon, also I'm born at night the effect that these placements have over my psyche are immense almost overwhelming. I believe it's here too that I fear abandonment and why I see so many things in a polar way (when really they aren't so).

IleneK said:

Planets can be in any of the houses and natives have no control over their journey. That is because no one has control over their journey. You have control over your behaviour. Sometimes . But that's just about it for any of us, you will come to find, if you have not already experienced that truth.

Also, I do hope you had a chance to inform yourself on some of the Chiron symbolism that CT recommended. Chiron was very civilized, and a teacher. I have not ever seen the mythology of Chiron charactize him as a warrior. The other centaurs were, but not Chiron.

His inability to die because of his partial divinity, though painfully wounded, is a key element of his symbolism. Another element of his painful wounding was his mother's rejection of him when he was born.
He is one who proceeds and serves in the face of great pain.

Click to expand...

No - some people are walking a very strong potentialed path. Others are nudged in certain directions. And believe it or not, some of us can go either way. A prominent 12th house seems to signify "strong potential" because we cannot change, or agree with, what we cannot see. That's why I say it seems that they are walking a narrow path.

The mythology is one thing but I get really interested in experience reports when it comes to astrology..not as the only measure but I think the weight of experience is underestimated. Let's get some surveys going..it's the information age! And I didn't mean a warrior sent to be violent, a teacher is warrior in my eyes.

But have you been able to verify what Chiron symbolizes in your chart?

InfoOverload2 said:

By purpose I mean that before you are birthed in the hospital, you have a purpose to fulfill while here. A job to do or a slot to feel.

This is a little off topic but I'm also toying with the idea that charts that have a lot of planets or significant planets in the 12th house, don't really have as much control over their journey. Meaning no matter what, this person is unconsciously walking a narrow path (down whatever kind of road their are meant to walk).

Click to expand...

So, you're positing that Chiron's placement has to do with one's dharma or one's thelemic true will? My opinion is that Chiron is too insignificant a chart point to have such a powerful role in the chart/life. But regardless of my personal views on the subject, let me provide some information that may or may not aid in your hypothesis.

I'll incorporate your idea of purpose with some of the keywords found by the original Chiron researchers. http://www.zanestein.com/keywords.htm#qualifier

Chiron is conjunct the MC in my chart. In Libra. It's only aspect is a sextile to Mercury within 2 degrees.

Now the thing about my chart (a many charts for that matter) is how much cross-contamination/mis-attribution can occur if I try to pin one element of my life to one placement. Jupiter is ridiculously strong in my chart, and a couple of things Jupiter has in common with Chiron symbology is "quest" and "guide/teaching".

So, if one were to classify my purpose as being a prominent teacher-type, which one of the chart attributes really the one edges out in importance? Then if that wasn't enough, you could take a look at the Sabian symbols of 2 key points in my chart, and see what they have to say about the particular gestalt I was born with.

If I look at the Sabian symbol for my MC degree at 5 Libra is :A MAN REVEALING TO HIS STUDENTS THE FOUNDATION OF AN INNER KNOWLEDGE UPON WHICH A "NEW WORLD" COULD BE BUILT. KEYNOTE: The necessity for the youthful spirits to learn from a Teacher who through his long experience has been able to reach solid and illuminating truths, i.e. "seed ideas."

Part of Spirit is at 6 Libra. The Sabian symbol for this is: A MAN WATCHES HIS IDEALS TAKING A CONCRETE FORM BEFORE HIS INNER VISION.
KEYNOTE: The need to visualize clearly one's dreams or ideals in order to make them truly effectual.

And once when I checked out 'the secret languages of birthdays' fittingly my particular birthday came up as "the instructional lone-wolf".

So... if I took your theory and I applied it to my chart, it would get lost in the various other indications that would point to teaching/guidance.

Dirty data.

Then here is the thing with the house placement - NN is also in the 10th house. So, which one is the "cincher" in the situation regarding one's "destiny"? NN or Chiron? If both are "purpose" how do we differentiate the effect of one to the other? That's why I asked you to be more specific as to what you mean by purpose - there are so many different chart points that supposedly point to purpose that classifying a newer chart element under the category of providing purpose would have to be examined thoroughly to see just how this "purpose" differentiates itself from all the other "purposes" that already exist within the various astrological methodologies.

The idea of loophole in regard to Chiron is an intriguing idea, at least to me personally, as I am interested in surviving beyond death with my current consciousness intact i.e. creating the body of light, diamond body, solar body &c. With everything that entails. Certainly is the loophole to end all loopholes, don't you think? But again, there are other chart elements that make me very much interested in enlightenment and attaining the wisdom of the ages and all that sort of junk. Another case where there is difficulty with differentiating between symbols.

This post is getting too long so I'll stop there.

InfoOverload2 said:

This is a little off topic but I'm also toying with the idea that charts that have a lot of planets or significant planets in the 12th house, don't really have as much control over their journey. Meaning no matter what, this person is unconsciously walking a narrow path (down whatever kind of road their are meant to walk).

Click to expand...

Interesting. That idea reminds me of what an adept said in regard to someone who is advancing on the magical path. The more mature and "evolved" they become, the less leeway they have to act thoughtlessly and irresponsibly as they are going to get a very hard and swift retribution from the "Laws of Ma'at". It was described as having the Sword of Damocles perpetually over one's head.

Whether that is the case in real life examples of charts with 12th house prominence is not something I've personally investigated - that Karma is bitchier to 12th housers than the rest. But there is potential to the connection. Traditionally the 12th house was the house of magic and in modern astrology the house of the "collective" unconscious. It's the joy of Saturn, the planetary power that has strong governance over matters law, order, balance and justice which shows quite nicely why he is exalted in the sign of Libra.

conspiracy theorist said:

So, you're positing that Chiron's placement has to do with one's dharma or one's thelemic true will? My opinion is that Chiron is too insignificant a chart point to have such a powerful role in the chart/life. But regardless of my personal views on the subject, let me provide some information that may or may not aid in your hypothesis.

I'll incorporate your idea of purpose with some of the keywords found by the original Chiron researchers. http://www.zanestein.com/keywords.htm#qualifier

Chiron is conjunct the MC in my chart. In Libra. It's only aspect is a sextile to Mercury within 2 degrees.

Now the thing about my chart (a many charts for that matter) is how much cross-contamination/mis-attribution can occur if I try to pin one element of my life to one placement. Jupiter is ridiculously strong in my chart, and a couple of things Jupiter has in common with Chiron symbology is "quest" and "guide/teaching".

So, if one were to classify my purpose as being a prominent teacher-type, which one of the chart attributes really the one edges out in importance? Then if that wasn't enough, you could take a look at the Sabian symbols of 2 key points in my chart, and see what they have to say about the particular gestalt I was born with.

If I look at the Sabian symbol for my MC degree at 5 Libra is :A MAN REVEALING TO HIS STUDENTS THE FOUNDATION OF AN INNER KNOWLEDGE UPON WHICH A "NEW WORLD" COULD BE BUILT. KEYNOTE: The necessity for the youthful spirits to learn from a Teacher who through his long experience has been able to reach solid and illuminating truths, i.e. "seed ideas."

Part of Spirit is at 6 Libra. The Sabian symbol for this is: A MAN WATCHES HIS IDEALS TAKING A CONCRETE FORM BEFORE HIS INNER VISION.
KEYNOTE: The need to visualize clearly one's dreams or ideals in order to make them truly effectual.

And once when I checked out 'the secret languages of birthdays' fittingly my particular birthday came up as "the instructional lone-wolf".

So... if I took your theory and I applied it to my chart, it would get lost in the various other indications that would point to teaching/guidance.

Dirty data.

Then here is the thing with the house placement - NN is also in the 10th house. So, which one is the "cincher" in the situation regarding one's "destiny"? NN or Chiron? If both are "purpose" how do we differentiate the effect of one to the other? That's why I asked you to be more specific as to what you mean by purpose - there are so many different chart points that supposedly point to purpose that classifying a newer chart element under the category of providing purpose would have to be examined thoroughly to see just how this "purpose" differentiates itself from all the other "purposes" that already exist within the various astrological methodologies.

The idea of loophole in regard to Chiron is an intriguing idea, at least to me personally, as I am interested in surviving beyond death with my current consciousness intact i.e. creating the body of light, diamond body, solar body &c. With everything that entails. Certainly is the loophole to end all loopholes, don't you think? But again, there are other chart elements that make me very much interested in enlightenment and attaining the wisdom of the ages and all that sort of junk. Another case where there is difficulty with differentiating between symbols.

This post is getting too long so I'll stop there.

Click to expand...

Lol thank you for actually contributing to this!

Now i do want to say that a natal chart gets redundant when you start digging around. Separately interpretations of planets in signs and houses can give the illusion of there not being any connections. But as we start to take a data analysis approach towards interpreting a person's natal chart it becomes clear that your whole chart moves as a unit. It repeats key themes...together they form a diagram of your soul

For you, your perspective is understandable because your Chiron and North Node placement are the same.

For me I have North Node in the 6th house, Chiron in the 11th.
As I stated in the OP - I tracked the themes present in my life during my Nodal Return, and by tracking themes during my Nodal Return and using my interpretation of Chiron, it created the same picture, true, but it was a more specific picture of what could be in store for me.

If I had not been able to recall life themes during my nodal return, and I just looked at my Chiron placement, using my interpretation of Chiron, it would literally validate my North Node themes, whether I remembered them or not. Chiron in the 11th house, validates a Nodal Return in the 6th house where the themes involved joining a major organization and trying to change things that did not cause me any suffering but that were just unjust... I don't think this should be discounted as dirty data, when as I said your chart should reinforce itself because it isn't a coincidence that you are exactly who you are through and through. You don't compartmentalize your personality, it is just one personality.

And also through data analysis, I've been able to see patterns (ie. if this is placed here, it's likely this will be here...or if this person seems like this, they may have aspect "a" AND aspect "b"). If we can see patterns like this , it proves that nothing in your chart actually stands alone.

Your chart is speaking maybe 2 sentences tops about your soul path.... but by dissecting it placement by placement you can easily get a 20 page report. I hope I'm getting to the heart of what I'm trying to say.

Your Sabian Symbols are redundant - what are your thoughts about those?

Also, what do you think about this interpretation of the 10th house as it relates to Chiron/NN?

10th house purpose: "A career, status, and recognition enable a person to make his individuality responsible and accountable"

What are themes of your Nodal Return? I can give you the dates if you aren't sure.

Are you wounded in the area of career or does your Chiron placement simply feel more like an arrow pointing to an outlet for you to be the warrior or the teacher?

My point with this thread is that Chiron probably shouldn’t be used to tell people where they suffer. And maybe with a good astrologer, Chiron isn't considered just the "wounded healer". But if you google your Chiron placement, it's all about the suffering you may have experienced and how you can give solace to others through experiencing this suffering.

I just believe it is oversimplified. I don’t suffer with 11th house issues like a victim.... however, when it comes to caring about reformation or injustice, I take action and a lot of ppl around me accept the status quo. This isn't me suffering, this is me seeing where I can "heal" the situation by noticing that something is off with it. But I'm not actually suffering anymore than anyone else...because the 11th house is a house of universal consciousness, it isn't a personal house. The same with the 10th house. It's not about what you have went through as an individual, it's about what we all endure, but you have the mentality of the healer, where others do not.

When it comes to the personal houses (1-4) it's personal issues that not everyone experiences, that the person can heal. These should be studied for personal suffering.

When it's relational houses (5-8), it's relational issues that the person can heal (Which is why I believe Chiron in the 5th could indicate a birth to save a marriage, or a birth that heals some sort of strife between two people. As an adult Chiron in the 5th may continue to help relational issues between others).

And when Chiron is in the houses of universal consciousness (9-12), the cause affects universal standards or systems.

Overall, Chiron just might be a healer, not suffering. Just because you notice something is wrong, doesn't mean you are a sufferer.

Chiron by house = where you can make a difference...it's probably nothing else.

InfoOverload2 said:

Also what is your North Node placement?

Click to expand...

Taurus North Node

InfoOverload2 said:

No - some people are walking a very strong potentialed path. Others are nudged in certain directions. And believe it or not, some of us can go either way. A prominent 12th house seems to signify "strong potential" because we cannot change, or agree with, what we cannot see. That's why I say it seems that they are walking a narrow path.

The mythology is one thing but I get really interested in experience reports when it comes to astrology..not as the only measure but I think the weight of experience is underestimated. Let's get some surveys going..it's the information age! And I didn't mean a warrior sent to be violent, a teacher is warrior in my eyes.

But have you been able to verify what Chiron symbolizes in your chart?

Click to expand...

Unless you have a prominent 12th house, your comments are not experiential. They are speculative. I do have a prominent 12th along with over 25 years of looking at charts and people. I can tell you that in all instances of prominent 12th houses, it depends upon the relationship of the planets in the 12th with other bodies and houses in the chart. Your assertions reflect your naiveté, your lack of life experience.

Perhaps you might work on clarifying your thoughts before your write if you are using the word "warrior" to mean "teacher"?

Yes, I have been about to determined what Chiron means in my chart.

IleneK said:

Unless you have a prominent 12th house, your comments are not experiential. They are speculative. I do have a prominent 12th along with over 25 years of looking at charts and people. I can tell you that in all instances of prominent 12th houses, it depends upon the relationship of the planets in the 12th with other bodies and houses in the chart. Your assertions reflect your naiveté, your lack of life experience.

Perhaps you might work on clarifying your thoughts before your write if you are using the word "warrior" to mean "teacher"?

Yes, I have been about to determined what Chiron means in my chart.

Click to expand...

Oh boy. Posted my chart (DC, June 3 1989, 11:47 AM).
I have 12th H South Node Rising, and no one is going to tell me that the 12th house isn't something fated.

Ted Bundy was asked "why do you do this" he literally didn't know. Saturn and Pluto in the 12th.

IleneK said:

Perhaps you might work on clarifying your thoughts before your write if you are using the word "warrior" to mean "teacher"?

.

Click to expand...

Also check your own 12th house to understand why you couldn't resist making such a petty statement. I say this as seriously as I can...who has an issue with a teacher being called a warrior? lol What happened here? You are overly defensive about a new idea.

I really need for "astrologers" to also do some soul work. You're not supposed to be a scientist, you're supposed to be a spiritual teacher. You missed a step

I think redundant is the wrong word to use for describing placements that have similarities between them. The thing to remember is that they are similar, and not the same. What tends to happen in these discussions is that placements are expounded upon based on what they have in common, and not the other things that differentiates them from one another. Jupiter in Sagittarius as a drive toward transcending barriers and the transgressing of boundaries might reinforce Chiron in Libra and "a sensitive spot/wounding from relationships" (to use an on-topic example) but both placements come from a different starting point, and the ultimate end goal of each will be different. To call any placement in the chart redundant is to view astrology through a reductionist lens, and then you go on to castigate Illene for whatever scientific bent you might have picked up from her posts.

What does the term soul indicate in your paradigm?

By dirty data I mean that if one were to make generalizations about specific placements, in this case Chiron in the houses, one would need to be sure that it is Chiron's driving influence that is causing the outcome, and not some other placement instead. Ironically (or not so ironically), one would have to take a scientific approach if they are to extrapolate one element of the natal chart from the other, and we both know just how interconnected a natal chart is, and how subtle one would have to be to actually parse out what certain placements are doing, without giving an a priori statement or posit to what the placement *must* mean, lest one fall into confirmation bias.

Are you various "yous" referring to the general you, or to me specifically? If it's me, I'm not in agreement that the chart only speaks 2 sentences tops about an my "soul path", seeing as how multivariate a life is, and how every decision and action we make stretches far beyond our perception and our life span. Who is to say what may come of this thread and our discussion - who are we touching with our hashing out of ideas, who might find that the "key" to their chart is actually Chiron, and who may go on to take this Chiron research into the future, and possibly legitimize its usage in the mainstream? If the soul is all-encompassing, or a deeper substrate of the personality, why wouldn't every single thing we do be relevant to our "soul path"? To say that the chart would give only 2 sentences of your soul path would contradict your earlier statement that the natal chart is the diagram of the soul - If the natal is already the diagram, why would the path also be within the natal chart? Wouldn't the "path" be found outside of it?

My thoughts on my Sabian symbols is that they fit. I have goals that span beyond my mortal years, and I would be happy to be the originator/pioneer of a vision that grows across the centuries or potentially millennia (yes, very Sagittarian of me). The question is, am I capable of doing such a thing? I'm sure as hell going to try though.

Also, what do you think about this interpretation of the 10th house as it relates to Chiron/NN?

10th house purpose: "A career, status, and recognition enable a person to make his individuality responsible and accountable"

Click to expand...

It doesn't seem powerful nor resonant enough to qualify as a soul path, in my opinion. The part that you sort of hit is that career and status will be a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Responsibility and accountability are coming from other things within my chart, and I also see these qualities as shapers of the final product, and not the final product itself.

The major thing that was happening with my nodal return at 19 were relationship oriented, where I had to be a rock for my girlfriend as she progressively got sicker over the course of our 2+ years relationship. This is personal and this post is already long as phuck, so I'll discontinue this strain.

I don't feel any "wounding" in career whatsoever, but Chirotic themes of teaching the next generation, improvement, being a maverick, on the brink of the threshold, between two worlds (or many worlds), as well as a civilizing agent are all themes that I can see myself undertaking as the years go by and I gain more power in the world. Since we are already in the modern section, having a Sun conjunct Pluto echoes the desire to be a catalysing agent in the collective, as it is located in the 12th house.

I sympathise with your point about giving more depth to Chiron, and any planet/point/sign in general. It's one of the major reasons why I initially turned my back on modern astrology, in favour of traditional astrology, that has a very rich, highly developed and deep tapestry behind the different signs, planets and houses, and they use less. In traditional, planets et al are used to their utmost maximum, unlike many of the modern astrology persuasion who load all their potential on the outers. It just goes to show how current day humanity is ailing when the focus is on the destabilizing outer planets that we aren't made to master. Masochistic, that's what 21st century humans are.

Chiron by house = where you can make a difference...it's probably nothing else.

Click to expand...

But then that would defeat the purpose of this thread's goal of enriching the astrological symbology of Chiron, wouldn't it?

Speaking of, could you provide more detail as to why you've linked your NN placement with that specific message? Your nodal axis occuring in the 12th/6th house is an intriguing tidbit, as it seems like you've delineated your destiny as to fight against tyrannical bondage, and both houses have a linkage to slavery.

conspiracy theorist said:

I think redundant is the wrong word to use for describing placements that have similarities between them. The thing to remember is that they are similar, and not the same. What tends to happen in these discussions is that placements are expounded upon based on what they have in common, and not the other things that differentiates them from one another. Jupiter in Sagittarius as a drive toward transcending barriers and the transgressing of boundaries might reinforce Chiron in Libra and "a sensitive spot/wounding from relationships" (to use an on-topic example) but both placements come from a different starting point, and the ultimate end goal of each will be different. To call any placement in the chart redundant is to view astrology through a reductionist lens, and then you go on to castigate Illene for whatever scientific bent you might have picked up from her posts.

What does the term soul indicate in your paradigm?

By dirty data I mean that if one were to make generalizations about specific placements, in this case Chiron in the houses, one would need to be sure that it is Chiron's driving influence that is causing the outcome, and not some other placement instead. Ironically (or not so ironically), one would have to take a scientific approach if they are to extrapolate one element of the natal chart from the other, and we both know just how interconnected a natal chart is, and how subtle one would have to be to actually parse out what certain placements are doing, without giving an a priori statement or posit to what the placement *must* mean, lest one fall into confirmation bias.

Are you various "yous" referring to the general you, or to me specifically? If it's me, I'm not in agreement that the chart only speaks 2 sentences tops about an my "soul path", seeing as how multivariate a life is, and how every decision and action we make stretches far beyond our perception and our life span. Who is to say what may come of this thread and our discussion - who are we touching with our hashing out of ideas, who might find that the "key" to their chart is actually Chiron, and who may go on to take this Chiron research into the future, and possibly legitimize its usage in the mainstream? If the soul is all-encompassing, or a deeper substrate of the personality, why wouldn't every single thing we do be relevant to our "soul path"? To say that the chart would give only 2 sentences of your soul path would contradict your earlier statement that the natal chart is the diagram of the soul - If the natal is already the diagram, why would the path also be within the natal chart? Wouldn't the "path" be found outside of it?

My thoughts on my Sabian symbols is that they fit. I have goals that span beyond my mortal years, and I would be happy to be the originator/pioneer of a vision that grows across the centuries or potentially millennia (yes, very Sagittarian of me). The question is, am I capable of doing such a thing? I'm sure as hell going to try though.

It doesn't seem powerful nor resonant enough to qualify as a soul path, in my opinion. The part that you sort of hit is that career and status will be a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Responsibility and accountability are coming from other things within my chart, and I also see these qualities as shapers of the final product, and not the final product itself.

The major thing that was happening with my nodal return at 19 were relationship oriented, where I had to be a rock for my girlfriend as she progressively got sicker over the course of our 2+ years relationship. This is personal and this post is already long as phuck, so I'll discontinue this strain.

I don't feel any "wounding" in career whatsoever, but Chirotic themes of teaching the next generation, improvement, being a maverick, on the brink of the threshold, between two worlds (or many worlds), as well as a civilizing agent are all themes that I can see myself undertaking as the years go by and I gain more power in the world. Since we are already in the modern section, having a Sun conjunct Pluto echoes the desire to be a catalysing agent in the collective, as it is located in the 12th house.

I sympathise with your point about giving more depth to Chiron, and any planet/point/sign in general. It's one of the major reasons why I initially turned my back on modern astrology, in favour of traditional astrology, that has a very rich, highly developed and deep tapestry behind the different signs, planets and houses, and they use less. In traditional, planets et al are used to their utmost maximum, unlike many of the modern astrology persuasion who load all their potential on the outers. It just goes to show how current day humanity is ailing when the focus is on the destabilizing outer planets that we aren't made to master. Masochistic, that's what 21st century humans are.

But then that would defeat the purpose of this thread's goal of enriching the astrological symbology of Chiron, wouldn't it?

Speaking of, could you provide more detail as to why you've linked your NN placement with that specific message? Your nodal axis occuring in the 12th/6th house is an intriguing tidbit, as it seems like you've delineated your destiny as to fight against tyrannical bondage, and both houses have a linkage to slavery.

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Is your Mercury in Gemini?

Why do you ask?