Hello everyone... as promised I can back to this thread. Hope people are still interested.
Here is the exact birth chart (I'm going to keep all the specific details private, I suppose its just my inner ethics kicking in), of patient J.
(
NeptuneRising, I included Lilith as I thought you might be interested and I'm sure others including myself are interested in hearing your thoughts).
I hope it serves our purposes well
It would be really inappropriate, in my opinion, to equivocate
any astrological aspect with a category of personality disorders... so I just want to ask, that while I think it is cool, this whole concept... can we
really find an astrological signature for these things? I mean, to be honest, this was why I started this thread... I'm not sure if it's totally possible, so I guess we are all just hypothesizing on a very interesting subject...
I see that Chiron is opposite Uranus
Chiron is trine Mars
Chiron is square Saturn
Chiron/Mars I've read is a bit of a warrior type with an almost unstoppable energy. I also have this aspect so I can relate to the energy of it.
But the Chiron is in square to Saturn plus opposite Uranus, this adds a stop/start feel to that unstoppable energy. It feels almost frustrating, all that build up from the t-square comes out through the Mars. I wonder if any of those planets are in the 7th house of projection.
Mercury/Neptune though I agree adds a bit of unreality to their thoughts and ideas, the narcissism of over emphasising their ego to cover up a deep seated feeling of worthlessness. Ooo though the Mercury is in square to Pluto, powerful punch to those words!
Saturn in Leo may be a feeling of worthlessness, especially so as its the midpoint of Mercury and Mars, and this is channelled out through that aspect I mentioned above. The Mercury here is also linked into the quincunx Mercury/Neptune and those illusions/delusions.
Chiron Square Uranus would be generational right? Though it also seems to be a long cycle, in that many actual generations seem to have this aspect, in different signs, and I suppose that has to do with the Uranus/Saturn conjunction that happened about 25 years ago. That said, I think without question in chart like this, especially, it still has some significance. Patient J has Mercury Trine Uranus= Uranus is made personal, and with this chart, I feel like any links we make to Mercury, is important. Narcissism is an issue with idealization, and how that's communicated to others, and one's own thoughts about one's self.
I also though it was interesting Chiron was desposited by Venus, and then being trine Mars, perhaps I wonder then if a) the isolating feeling of the square from Saturn, plus Chiron being in the 12th, also the 11th might b) come out as an issue with relating harmoniously to others, feeling devoid, or even "holier than thou," finding others unworthy of the person's time, which really is to hide the wounding then of Chiron.
The psychologist who worked with this guy indicated this guy had a lot of pent up rage which resulted in a myriad of self-defeating behaviors which I don't think the Sun-Pluto square self-sabotage element can wholly account for, because instead, he blamed other people. To me, this is again, indicative of Chiron's relationship to Mas/Venus/Saturn. He was definitely unstoppable once he got going, but there was no channel, and the 12th house influence made him retreat, lash out, sulk, and become absorbed in his alienation and difference (Chiron-Uranus opposition perhaps?) and yet also found some sort of spiritual gratification from this. He was very interested in the idea of God punishing others/rewarding him, if he played it like he was the one being punished, which I thought was interesting since Chiron does deal with the wound of isolation, and it being the 12th house, deceptive then?
Mercury square Pluto exact-- I was told the man could speak some fo the cruelest words, and the kinds of things you would not say unless you really wanted to hurt someone. He felt empathy later, and so long as it made him feel better, which isn't really empathy, just a break in the act of the pathology.
Lilith is near conjunct Chiron.... thoughts Neptune?
I noticed he has,SU=ME/VE,0.54"D (90 Midpoint)
A sense of beauty,vanity or conceit,self-glorification.
He also has SU/MA
Restlessness,the inclination to quarrel,violence.
May I ask if the subject of rape came up during therapy?
J.R.
Hi JR yes rape was a big topic. The man experienced a huge split between masculine and feminine in himself. He also entertained not rape fantasies, but saw women as a way to heal and soothe himself within, entertained fantasies, and even acting on, using them. He would incite quarrels to then elicit sex as a way to make himself feel better (quite literally), and assumed she would too. My friend commented this guy did not seem to know how to actually relate in sex, and seemed preoccupied with a constant sense of disatisfaction but not understanding, getting angry with rather, his partner's dissatisfaction. He did not know how to please a woman and he blamed women for this, often discussing in sexually perverse terms (w/o even realizing as I was told), what he expected of women, and of men.
had a boyfriend for several months who was diagnosed NPD by dsmIII criteria.
cardinal angles within orb of aspect to venus cancer, mars aries, mercury aries.
had a penchant for meeting influential/weatlthy women and then humiliating them by leaving them hanging after he used them up.
his moon aquarius trine sun gemini ~ dad was a cheater and mom was long suffering irish catholic.
narcissists have a strange view of righting wrongs.
i've read that children of narcissistic parent will replicate relationships in adult life with narcissists.
he always spoke of his dad as if he was speaking of himself.
This is really interesting, the association with the Father. Sun square Pluto in this chart does indicate Father issues. My friend and I did not really talk too much about Dad in this case, but there was again, a pre-occupation with his father, but also his mother. He never felt he could satisfy either, and thought it was God's way of punishing him. At first this might seem opposite to Narcissism, but my friend was quick to point out how this guy got a sense of glory from this punishment. A narcissistic masochism I might think, which is interesting considering Moon conjunct Neptune... 7th house projections and the like.
I'm not a natal astrologer but, traditionally the Moon represented the mind. I find it curious in this chart, the Moon is unaspected and void, as if the Mind is simply unattached and floating without having anything to hinge itself upon.
It's only real relationship, in this chart, is the mutual reception with Jupiter, on the ASC, giving a rather larger-than-life perspective to the mind, blowing things out of proportion.
Also, the Moon has no relationship to the Ascendant, the ruler of the Ascendant, the Sun or Mercury which, are vital parts of the personality and body. In fact, the Moon not only does not aspect them but, is disjuct showing the Mind out of relationship with the self, the body, the personality and the brain.
As for Mercury being combust, I don't think Mercury is as affected by this as other planets are because Mercury naturally is close to the Sun and also takes on the qualities of whatever and whoever it is configured with. Mercury is really little affected personally but rather becomes what it is in relation with.
Mercury to me, as I spoke with my friend, and I look at this chart more, seems like an interesting "pinball" being bounced around in this machine. It seems to expose his crueler components, and what he found gratifying (Mercury trine Uranus), and how he didn't really expose himself to it on an intuitive level, or feeling level (Moon inconjunct). He could not feel for others, because he could not feel for himself. The biggest secret I have learned about Narcissists, is that they hate themselves the most, care for themselves the least: everyone else matters, and satisfying the delusions of self through these people. Moon in Sag would make for BIG and conjunct Neptune, blurried boundaries, and so he relies then as his sole connection, Mercury sort of acts on behalf of his Sun, which is not in a great position. The man thought he thought he could think/speak/write his way out of anything. He was thus brilliant to himself, but always unsatistfied with other's responses to him. (Moon in 7th?)
Such a tight orb on that quincunx. Plus, the moon is in the 8th house in Whole Houses and Placidus (pretty much in Equal also).
Cafeastrology says:
I also find it interesting that the Sun has mostly/only challenging aspects to it.
The majority of the planets in water are afflicted.
The water planets affliction... I thought about this some. On an elementary level, when water is prevented from movement, it stagnants, builds, pressure. Eventually you get this explosion of stale, lifeless water. I think this interesting to think about given that this guy felt no one could understand his emotions, prevented access to them, and then with great vitriol, unleash them and douse those who touched upon his pained emotions with this stale water. Kind of like being thrown into a swamp. He had a hard time keeping and making close connections, unless the person somehow could not be in touch with his emotions... classic for Narcissism then because he could only be with those who had particular importance, but were out of his reach, though he pretended like they weren't. Anyone who burst this bubble got a lot of ugly emotional backwater thrown on them.
We don't really know what time this person was born though, which leads the Moon several degrees either way..
Anachiel, I agree. We can't speculate with the houses. The OP says its fairly close time based on an estimation... The Moon in this case may be unaspected, or singleton - I found this observation interesting as I live next door to someone I suspect is narcissitic and they have the same aspect but also they have Mercury/Neptune conjunction plus other aspects which can lead to that type of personality.
I am curious to see where Lilith is in this chart.
Hi put lilith in. Moon is still aspected
Quaternity Eagle-- It would be interesting if you could pass these interpretations along to your psychologist friend, and get his feedback on them! I am thinking that if particular interpretations do/do not match up with the psychologist's records, it would be helpful for us to then see which chart placements seem most "diagnostic."
Of course, I don't think most of us (any of us?) here are clinical psychologists, so we would be trying to interpret the chart through a lay-person's eyes.
Hi Waybread, this I brought up. The Sun-Moon inconjunct, the Moon-Neptune conjunction, the Sun-Pluto Square, Mercury-Pluto Square, and Jupiter-Mars trine with Mars square Uranus and what they say about a person matched up with a lot of the diagnostic practices of my friend. I didn't say much else since my friend doesn't know much about astrology, so I spent a lot of time explaining, and he pondered. We got this far.
In particular, anything that eluded to restlessness, a propensity to unleash violence/terror/mayhem/criticism onto those who got too close and touched his pain, also excerbated what is described by the Sun-Moon inconjunct. This was big. My friend said everything which could be read from this chart should be located back on this Sun-Moon inconjunct. I wonder what people thought of this?
This is where I have a problem with the currently-accepted "disease model" of psychoanalysis. According to those criteria posted by Cold Fusion (which look to be legitimate), I could qualify every person on Earth as being narcissistic. Everyone has those tendencies to some extent or another. Only when they pass a purely subjective and nearly arbitrary line of "too much" do we call them "symptoms of a disease." Further, anyone who could be classified as truly being a "violent narcissist" is not going to suddenly turn into a decent person. Someone who is careless and self-absorbed can be given a pill, and that will make them careless, self-absorbed, and stoned. There is no magic bullet. Long, hard work and a willingness to change is the only way to reliably effect change. Narcissists are at such a severe disadvantage because they don't feel any motivation to change at all. Narcissism, when you really break it down, is little more than extreme hubris and conceit. "I'm already better than everyone else, so why should I change? I should make you more like me!"
I agree Mark. this guy was in therapy a long time and I think when it was concluded that he no longer felt obligated by his own high and mighty spiritual beliefs to act venomously and cruelly to those around him, that that was as far as they were going to get. There was no magic bullet. It seemed as if once the Narcissistic blister on his Ego got a little bit smaller, and he no longer believed in particular the delusions of grandeur and thus allowances to be violent, he was deemed no longer needing therapy. My friend, and as most psychologists know, Narcissists are hard to treat, many don't get better (because they don't want to, as you know), and instead my friend helped focus on the sadness of the guy's isolation, sort of getting him to mature enough not to act narcissistically in some situations. The guy never knew he was a narcissist. He was just sick of being alone, and my friend described it like he treated therapy as if he was "taking classes" or "building his resume." It wasn't so much deceitful as the guy was completely unable to see that he needed to actually change to get better. In fact, it became about giving him a more realistic sense of confidence that seemed to be the best antidote. Yes, my friend complimented him a lot during therapy, a sort of narcissistic supply as it was described, but it only went so far. The biggest changes came when they dealt with parent issues (Patient J blamed his parents for everything, until it came to blaming women in his life).
My younger brother's case would be a perfect example to study.
He's never been diagnosed, but I believe he is an overlapping case
of schizoid, paranoid and narcissistic personality disorders.
In terms of violence, he abused his younger son three years ago.
Currently, instigated by his wife, he's driving me crazy with all kinds
of harassing tactics in order to drive me out of the house, knowing that
that they can't do it by legal means, since I am half owner.
Hasn't turned violent on me yet, but my spiritual friend who checked out
his photo said he could easily do so, since I am currently the target of
his extreme hatred. She said that when I am gone, she thinks he will
likely turn his paranoid hatred on his wife.
He sticks "notices" and "orders" on the front of my bedroom door,
much like an SS guard at a concentration camp.
My friend said he definitely has mental problems, as did a local famous
clairvoyant whom I consulted.
An Indonesian "bomoh" (witch doctor) friend, with his psychic powers,
said he is like Hitler.
He has a stellium in his 8th house (as did Hitler, using one of his birthtimes).
Jupiter exactly at Algol. (Hitler had Saturn two or three degrees from this
famours star.) Essentially "lost his head".
Ate, the Goddess of evil, rashness, impulse, mischief and vengeance,
and Zosma, the star of abuse and suffering, are exact with his Sun.
I am certain that he needs to take drugs like risperidone and olanzapine.
This is the profile of a RM 15,000-a-month 47-year old Principal Engineer
at the Malaysian plant of Western Digital. Hollers at his subordinates as
if they were stray dogs, much like he does to me. I have been told that
everybody there hates him.
Yes, I do believe Algol is important. But I think only in terms of astrology. This might be the best signature out there in my humble opinion. The guy was a grandiose delusional philosophy professor, and then very physically aggressive and out of touch.
Yes, interesting remarks on this - if I may stray for a moment - that you and Mark made.
It seems that there is a "fashion" or trend toward certain 'disorders' getting more attention or becoming popular or stressed.
It used to be that being 'depressed' was the "fashion". Then it was ADD or ADHD was the "fashion". Now it seems that NPD is the fashionable or trending or stressed disorder.
I wonder if the general transits or ingresses reflect this somehow.....just pondering.
Maybe we need a book that is the opposite of the DSMIV so that people can look up how good/sane/healthy they are, too? Sort of like a book for pronoiacs?
I am not sure if NPD is as fashionable as ADD but I hear what you are saying. From my friend: "personality disorders are hardest and rarest, particularly narcissism." The reason is, Narcissists don't come to therapy because they don't think they need it! My friend pointed out that the codependent lovers and children of narcissists come for therapy, and that's usually how narcissism is first discovered, if it ever is at all.
I *love* this idea of the pronoiac book!!!!
Yes, it also makes me think that the western society and/or its influences is tending bring out more narcissism in people - immediate gratification being required, rewards wanted for no work or effort being put in, buy now and pay later (or not at all, as long as people can have what they want now)... no thought or remorse for future implications of current actions/reactions. The consumer 'throw away' society....
I've had close associations with two narcissists in my life, their behaviours were problematic to the point of abuse (one physical and one emotional/mental). I must say though, these two people were rareties out of all the people I know and have known, their cases stood out. The delusions of grandiour or feelings of superiority, using people as objects/tools rather than fellow human beings, abuse and manipulation, an excessive need for power (one even had an obsessions with being an rich ogliarch). He wanted people to work for him, with no recompense or reward, that is, he wanted people, his women, to do his various chorse for him. One of these guys had a string of women who always seemed to abuse him, or so he would say. It wasn't until I realised just how he used them all, manipulated them and played on their weaknesses, that I understood why they were all so upset with him. Of course, he thought he was perfect and that women were all evil. By-the-by, he had an interesting Sun/Lilith/Jupiter opposition across his Nadir/MC axis, as well as other aspects pointing towards his personality type - he projected all his internal unconscious beliefs outwards about women. If anyone would make a critique of his personality, he would take it as an attack and react completely irrationally. As I understood it, its a protection of a very very fragile ego and the image that the person has built up about themselves - when something threatens this image, like someone invading a castle, a counter-attack is launched against the perceived threat.
The other guy, I lived with one for 3 or 4 years over a decade ago, he was a violent one but I was way too young to know much different. It was all the same traits though, to the excess - manipulation, control (he took over my finances so I had no freedom), he thought he was the 'all powerful' one and had his own problems with authority and lived partly outside of the law. I bought into this image that he portrayed of himself totally (I was young and very naive when we met) but when I started to challenge this image, a full on assult was launched that put me back in my place. It was a learning experience which taught me alot.
The majority of people I know now or have known, may show various tendencies of narcissism, but when it makes their life as well as other people's lives detrimental, that it's a problem.
Wow.... what a story. Its terrible you went through it. You know very well the narcissistic personality though. The key is fragile ego. Patient J thought everyone must be dumber than he was, and if not, he had to prove it so, and he would put himself in very precarious situations just to prove himself, only to expose how fragile it was... he was very needy.
We could, as astrologers, look for the signs of fragile ego in the chart.
I believe this is your patient's ephemeris.
http://www.true-node.com/eph1/?inpu...lock=Universal+Time&zodsec=D%B0M&longitude=on
Using Chaldean/Indian numerology, it is not difficult to
see why he is a narcissist.
He is a 9-3 person (9 birth, 3 destiny).
9 = Mars (Hot tempered, arrogant, violent)
3 = Jupiter (Dominating, tyrannical, conceited)
He is also a Dragon. So is my brother. Dragons are known to be
cold, tyrannical, arrogant, explotative, selfcentered, without any
conscience and cares little about others.
Lastly, note also that Jupiter conjuncts his Algol, as in my brother's case.
I don't know much about Chinese Horoscopes, but I know all signs have their darker qualities in any sense. It is again this Jupiter conjunct Algol and him being very absorbed in philosophy (sometimes that's all he'd talk about, and in a high and mighty, demeaning way).
