detriment and fall?
- Thread starter meg96
- Start date
Moog
Well-known member
Good question.
The fall of a planet is the point opposite it's exaltation.
Generally speaking you can think of them both as 'this planet is in a sucky place that it doesn't like, and will not operate well from'.
You'd need to check everything else to know precisely what it means.
In vedic astrology the 'detriments' aren't used as such, however, a planet may be undignified in those detriment signs by dint of emnity between the planets. i.e. Sun in Aquarius, Jupiter in Virgo etc.
The fall of a planet is the point opposite it's exaltation.
Generally speaking you can think of them both as 'this planet is in a sucky place that it doesn't like, and will not operate well from'.
You'd need to check everything else to know precisely what it means.
In vedic astrology the 'detriments' aren't used as such, however, a planet may be undignified in those detriment signs by dint of emnity between the planets. i.e. Sun in Aquarius, Jupiter in Virgo etc.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
QUOTE:
Detriment and Fall
As in taking the Fortitudes of the Planets, great care ought to be had, so their Debilities must be observed with no less care and prudence;
wherein I advise you to beware of the Effects or Influence of a Planet when he is in Detriment; rather than when he is in Fall. For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery,
whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery.
source: (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)
Detriment is uncomfortable and misplaced, resulting into a weakened energy. This does not necessarily mean the signs strength itself is zapped, it just means it is not comfortable expressing and is not free to express fully, creating a negative effect.
Fall is the most difficult, negative and diminished placement. My example of a fallen planet - Think of fall as a Square aspect and Dignity (Ruler) as a Trine aspect. If you know what Square and Trine do then for the most part you will understand that it is in same context here.
Mercury dignifies Gemini, Gemini is communicative, and full of expression. Just like the meaning of Mercury itself, this is why it is ruled here - Mercury is in fall when in Pisces because of the lack of confidence and unrealistic fantasy-based type expression it has.
Moon rules Cancer, Cancer is emotional, responsive and nurturing and Moon nurtures earth. So the moons signature sign is Cancer - Moon is in its fall in Scorpio. Scorpio is the darkest most powerful sign, it is the poker face of the Zodiac. Gravekeeping it's extremely intense emotions, this is not the way the Moon wants to express itself. Scorpio is also secretive, intense and all or nothing towards others. Cancer wants to nurture towards others. Scorpio moon is the most difficult moon placement seeing life though a dark and negative lens.
My example of the relations between these 2 signs and the moon would be Cancer as the spoilt, loved and nurtured child and Scorpio as the neglected black sheep.
But for the signs that are not listed in either dignity, exaltation, detriment or fall are signs in peregrine. This means that according to the horoscope they can be weak or strong. If the Sun is in Pisces then I would say that the sun will perform especially poor because of Pisces vulnerable and weak nature as a sign itself. Pisces is far if not the furthest from being a leader and in my personal opinion it is as if the Sun in Pisces is just off of being in fall or in detriment. Not to mention its mutability which is the other end of the spectrum of Sun ruled Leo of Fixed Quality.
It just made sense to assume this, I look at the relationships between each planet and sign, and what each planet and sign actually do. With this I just adjust to the horoscope and then I start getting flesh out of astrology instead of limited, new age astrology.
The Sun performs poorly in all of the Signs (Pisces especially) except for the Fire Signs. He only has the dignity of Face in 10 degrees of the other signs and will be peregrine throughout the other 20.
I have:
Sun - Pisces (Peregrine)
Moon - Scorpio (Fallen)
Mercury - Pisces (Fallen)
Venus - Aries (Detriment)
Mars - Cancer (Fallen)
North Node - Sagittarius (Fallen)
South Node - Gemini (Fallen)
There is no harmony here, so judging by the difficulty I have I can confidently say that both Detriment and Fallen predominance will create a more difficult nature in their specific fallen areas.
Hopefully that answered your question
Link.
Last edited:
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.
Dranzer's analysis is pretty spot on. Planets in detriment are disorganized, are said to be fighting with themselves, and tend to take on a corrupted influence which tends to make them negative. Planets in fall tend to show worry and distress, and are said to have a numbing or weakening influence which sort of makes them less able to perform.
Dranzer's analysis is pretty spot on. Planets in detriment are disorganized, are said to be fighting with themselves, and tend to take on a corrupted influence which tends to make them negative. Planets in fall tend to show worry and distress, and are said to have a numbing or weakening influence which sort of makes them less able to perform.
Moog
Well-known member
Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
Moog said:
Lilly's ideas of exaltation and fall are no different than any other medieval author. The various dignities and debilities, as well as their effects, were fairly standardized by around the turn of the first millennium CE. It's mostly going to depend on what specific tradition you follow, but the medieval tradition is pretty straightforward on this topic.
serafin5
Well-known member
I have always thought this also that "fall" was definately the more debilitated between the two (detriment and fall). Of course this was before I had heard of "Lilly". Does any Traditional Astrologers know the answer for sure?
Thanks!!
S5
Moog
Well-known member
In that case, I still don't like those ideas, but let's not blame Lilly specifically?
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
That's the way.
M
may28gemini
I don't quite agree that detriment planets are worse than fallen planets.
In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.
As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.
My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.
In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.
As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.
My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.
Erm... I never said Detriment planets are worse then Fallen planets? I said Fallen planets are the worst... Read again please.
M
may28gemini
Actually, I was referring to Kaiousei no Senshi 03:16 AM 03-28-2013
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
That's fine if that's the way you want to conceptualize it. I just see "corrupted" as being much worse than "weakened".
But it's completely stated that fall is the weakest and most corrupted... That is why it is labelled all across astrology to be the worst. It is an equivalent to a square aspect. A detriment makes the expression uncomfortable but a fall completely causes difficulty and a negative world in that area. It's not about what YOU think is worse, because it's already a fact that fall is worse
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
Can I get a source on that?