USA charts - the ultimate debate

Futurist

Well-known member
Hi Johan,

Yes you are absolutely right I am getting a little too technical and lost in myself here! It is not my intention at all to have excluded you or indeed anyone and I am more than happy to try and explain - although on this particular topic , Harmonics, that could take a few days of writing if someone has no knowledge at all as it can get really complex! Also, although I had to study it in depth, I will never claim to be expert so if someone else wants to chip in, please do so.

Firstly though Johan the Sibley chart is generally regarded to be the 5.10pm one not the Gemini rising one so that will also be confusing you. Mars has just crossed the Desc of 12 Gemini of the Sibley chart.

Now to the harmonics. the division of the circle by 8 - the 8th harmonic or 8H leaves you with 8 divisions of 45 degrees. Within one 45 degree section you will find a reflection of all the 13 main natal planets and and the 78 midpoints (m.p.) they produce. If you use a computer program and set it to a 45 degree sort, this will throw up a table of midpoints listed by Cardinal, Fixed and Mutable signs.

The direct midpoint inthis case is 6.42 Scorpio count forward 45 degrees and you'll get to another midpoint at 21.42 Sag so one now knows that the ASc/MC point will resonate around the chart to 6.42 degrees of all the fixed degrees, so 6 Leo, 6 Aq, 6 Taurus and 21.42 degrees of all mutable signs. Pisces, Sag, Gemini and Virgo.

When we look for these numbers to show up in data it is because at these degrees the ASC and MC are brought into relationship and a direct hit on one often supports our belief that this must be the correct degree of the angles as the orbs used in harmonics are so small.

Is that clearer or clear as mud!! I highly recommend a book called Working With Astrology by Michael Harding and Charles Harvey to really get into this topic of harmonics

Hope it has helped x
 

johan

Well-known member
Kathryn,

johan said:
arent the AC/MC points of the Sibley/Geminichart,are they?

This is the sentence I think why you thought I don't know the difference between the Sybleychart(Sagittarius rising chart) and the Gemini rising chart,but I do know.I only used this together,because the points you mentioned were not the AC/MC points in both charts.So Radu is making a point here for the Sybleychart,because of the relationship between the descendant of the chart and transiting Mars,with full Moon squaring Pluto.

-So if I am correct you mean the midpoint(m.p. I understand now :D )of the AC/MC of the Sybleychart,which is 6.42 Scorpio.

-And the rest of the technical explanations is crystalclear,except a few things:
1Using the 8th harmonic,so adding 45 degrees to the AC/MC midpoint,cannot be regarded as a midpoint(you say it is),but as an important point I think you mean,as a semisquare?
2Do you use also other harmonics,or is the 8th considered to be the most important generally?
3You say 13 main natal planets,but I think you mean 8+Sun+Moon+Nodes and something I think?

I know I should study more of astrology,like the books you mentioned and Ebertin was using midpoints and wrote a book of it I think,but if you would answer these questions this will be real helpful for now.

Greetings,

Johan
 

Futurist

Well-known member
johan said:
-And the rest of the technical explanations is crystalclear,except a few things:
1Using the 8th harmonic,so adding 45 degrees to the AC/MC midpoint,cannot be regarded as a midpoint(you say it is),but as an important point I think you mean,as a semisquare?
2Do you use also other harmonics,or is the 8th considered to be the most important generally?
3You say 13 main natal planets,but I think you mean 8+Sun+Moon+Nodes and something I think?

Greetings,

Johan

Hi ,

Yep, you got it perfectly Johan! To answer the questions you pose
1) In the 8H adding 45 degrees to a midpoint will take you to another one, albeit an indirect midpoint.
2) 8H is considered to be the harmonic of manifestation so this is commonly used and is what Ebertin uses.
3) My error, 13 main natal points not planets. 8+ Sun, Moon, ASC, MC, Node

best wishes x
 

Theo

Banned
AquariusMoon said:
http://www.ericfrancis.com/issues/0307/full-moon.html

Theo, as you stated, there were many links to "Franklin astrology declaration of independence" on the net. I'd never heard of this before.
Ditto the Gnostic planetary info. Thanks :)


Cool, isn't it? Well, I sort of grew up in that Philadelphia community in the Northwest and read about and also studied under the astrologers who in the 19th & 20th centuries, continued the tradition. Franklin, and many more Quakers of Penn's state were classical astrologers.

Franklin was the "star" of the group, witty, inventive, writer, scientist, publishers, journalist, astrologer, and yes, one of the founding fathers of America - in more ways than one. Nice to have a couple practical celestial heads among others in the room deciding great public matters - not by rushing - but by knowing where the transits are, huh?
 

AquariusMoon

Well-known member
Theo, do you know anything about the clock on the back of the $100 bill that is set at 4:10? Do you think maybe that's when the Declaration of Independence was signed? Have you heard anything about that? I wonder what it stands for?
 

pwadm

Staff member
Indeed, it's there... 4:10 pm

I searched the internet for explanations for this clock set at thims time (on the Independence Hall in Philadelphia - where the Declaration of Independence was signed). I could find no website to explain this time.
I only presume that it actually referred to the time when the declaration was signed, although there might have been an error.
The Sibly chart is set for 5:10 pm.
Benjamin Franklin had proposed a "daylight saving time" system in 1784 (while in Paris), although not in its current form, people just had to wake up earlier in order to use the daylight during the early morning.

Theo, could you please shed some light on this?

US_%24100_reverse.jpg
 

AquariusMoon

Well-known member
Thanks, Radu, for checking! You came up with some interesting info, the Daylight Savings Time. I spent some time checking on the net, but didn't come up with anything. That 4:10 has got to mean something!
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Wow, I never noticed that before! Perhaps that's because I don't deal with $100 bills too often... :lol:

What a fascinating discovery! :mrgreen:

Arian Maverick
 

Laura Elizabeth

Well-known member
I've really enjoyed this thread :D

Another chart I use for the United States is 17 September 1787 - the signing of the U.S. Constitution and 4 March 1789 - when the constitution went into effect.

I'm glad to see someone else uses the Constitution dates as well!
 

Theo

Banned
Laura Elizabeth said:
I've really enjoyed this thread :D

Another chart I use for the United States is 17 September 1787 - the signing of the U.S. Constitution and 4 March 1789 - when the constitution went into effect.

I'm glad to see someone else uses the Constitution dates as well!

The classical Quaker astrologers maintained that March was best date to swear in a new president. In fact, early March was used until it was changed by the 20th Amendment in the 1930s to January 20th - not March. The Jan. 20th date coicides with the transiting Sun conjoined to the constellation Aquila, the Eagle, and its main star Altair, near Aquarius.

The March date trines the Scorpio November election Sun and the July 4 Cancer Sun and Jupiter's position in Cancer - water trines.
 

Laura Elizabeth

Well-known member
Theo said:
Laura Elizabeth said:
I've really enjoyed this thread :D

Another chart I use for the United States is 17 September 1787 - the signing of the U.S. Constitution and 4 March 1789 - when the constitution went into effect.

I'm glad to see someone else uses the Constitution dates as well!

The classical Quaker astrologers maintained that March was best date to swear in a new president. In fact, early March was used until it was changed by the 20th Amendment in the 1930s to January 20th - not March. The Jan. 20th date coicides with the transiting Sun conjoined to the constellation Aquila, the Eagle, and its main star Altair, near Aquarius.

The March date trines the Scorpio November election Sun and the July 4 Cancer Sun and Jupiter's position in Cancer - water trines.

I hadn't thought of it that way, Theo. Also, traditionally, the new year in the Old Country began at the Aries Ingress - approximately March 20 - 25 - so I always thought that the March date for inauguration was a reflection of the ways in which life had been charted for centuries, but wondered why they just didn't continue with the Aries ingress timing. Setting inauguration to trine with the November election and the Declaration's "birth" makes sense.
 

Laura Elizabeth

Well-known member
Also Theo, completely off-topic, your discussion on Quakers and astrology has intrigued me. I had no idea there was a connection, though I've been - studying isn't the right word, but it's the only one I have - studying Quaker philosophy on and off for several years. Could you point out some websites (or books) for me to follow? I've doing some searching and have found some, but being pointed in the right direction would be muchly appreciated :D
 

Theo

Banned
Laura Elizabeth said:
Also Theo, completely off-topic, your discussion on Quakers and astrology has intrigued me. I had no idea there was a connection, though I've been - studying isn't the right word, but it's the only one I have - studying Quaker philosophy on and off for several years. Could you point out some websites (or books) for me to follow? I've doing some searching and have found some, but being pointed in the right direction would be muchly appreciated :D

Hi Laura,

There are documents of the Quakers involved with astrology, but those who were astrologers were part of the mystic group started from German immigrants and followers of Jakob Bohme who settled in northwest Philadelphia, or Germantown. Try to enter this into a search engine and look for references to Franklin, the Quakers, and astrologers. I will take a look in my library for more references in the meantime and get back to you when I find something. Let me know how your studies are going on Quaker philosophy.
 

Futurist

Well-known member
Hi Guys,

Been absent for a week trying to locate cause of major glitch in my computer (Mercury RX !) causing it to crash every 5 mins but back now and just caught up on this great thread. Theo you write some interesting stuff -it's going in a really interesting direction

Just wanted to say that Linda Goodman, who I am sure most of us only equate with her books 'Sun Signs' and 'Love Signs' also wrote a fascinating book called Star signs. She chose a bad title for actually the book is not about 'star signs' but packed full of esoteric wisdom.

Can't help with the time on the clock but on page 308 -314 she talks about the esoteric significance of The Great Seal reproduced on the one dollar bill - and the numerological significance. You'll need to get the book or it'll mean me typing for 2 hours but the number 13 is significant and she talks about the reason why the pyramid is unfinished, the meaning of the latin inscriptions etc etc

Also back to the original question on the correct birthtime of the USA she says that the time was chosen to make it Sun Cancer and Aquarius Moon but also says.. and I quote " Another secret code in addition to 'adaptability to change' is behind the selection of a Gemini Ascendant for America's birthchart. Gemini is a dual or double sign meant to signify the day when Americans shall have spiralled into the illumination of realizing that matter and energy are inseperable polarities of the same reality (Two are one)."
 

Theo

Banned
Futurist said:
Hi Guys,

Been absent for a week trying to locate cause of major glitch in my computer (Mercury RX !) causing it to crash every 5 mins but back now and just caught up on this great thread. Theo you write some interesting stuff -it's going in a really interesting direction

Just wanted to say that Linda Goodman, who I am sure most of us only equate with her books 'Sun Signs' and 'Love Signs' also wrote a fascinating book called Star signs. She chose a bad title for actually the book is not about 'star signs' but packed full of esoteric wisdom.

Can't help with the time on the clock but on page 308 -314 she talks about the esoteric significance of The Great Seal reproduced on the one dollar bill - and the numerological significance. You'll need to get the book or it'll mean me typing for 2 hours but the number 13 is significant and she talks about the reason why the pyramid is unfinished, the meaning of the latin inscriptions etc etc

Also back to the original question on the correct birthtime of the USA she says that the time was chosen to make it Sun Cancer and Aquarius Moon but also says.. and I quote " Another secret code in addition to 'adaptability to change' is behind the selection of a Gemini Ascendant for America's birthchart. Gemini is a dual or double sign meant to signify the day when Americans shall have spiralled into the illumination of realizing that matter and energy are inseperable polarities of the same reality (Two are one)."

Thanks. What many are now finding out about the astrological and spiritual truths of the past is coming to light. I expected this long ago when I tracked the motion of Uranus through tropical Pisces (2003 - 2010) in the late 1980s. Now many things that run counter to conventional "wisdom" and "understanding" is becoming clear in the light of day.

Take for example the revealations of the past, where Jesus Christ himself elaborates on classical astrology, and its use, and creation by God to regulate our world. The coming of the expressions of the "Da Vinci Code" -albliet a fictionalized account mixed with historical facts.

But also now the revelations of The Gospel of Judas Iscariot - among many Coptic texts that clearly show truths not accepted by modern religion. Expect major news to emerge at the end of April, and in May from National Geographic Magazine which will publish this gospel to the general public.

Many other texts not included in the coventional Bible such as the The Book of Thomas the Contender, and texts written by Mary Magdelane, as well as the other aspostles who personally knew Jesus Christ - show just how astrologically-minded Christ, and those who followed him were in the First Century A.D.

The current transit of Uranus in tropical Pisces presages historical change that comes from the discoveries of such ancient texts that run exactly opposite to "accepted belief." This is Uranus in action, and as the transit through tropical Pisces continues we can expect to hear more amazing discoveries from the recent past come to light through the mutable action of Pisces.

These true histories directly link astrology to God, and through the centuries have played a leading and powerful role in shaping human history and the rise of the United States with the Founding Fathers and their use of astrology to give birth to a new nation.
 

Futurist

Well-known member
Hi

I'm not saying this information will end this debate once and for all but I have certainly stumbled across something.........

I live in Windsor, UK and last week whilst mooching around near Eton College I went into a second hand bookshop - not a charity shop but one of those real old fashioned establishments where the musty smell of the books is overpowering and you have to stoop to avoid hitting the roof. I was just about to ask the old guy running it if he had an esoteric section when I literally tripped over a pile of books with a big hand-drawn sign resting on the top saying 'Astrology'. Well, I thought I had died and gone to heaven when the pile included these original copy books, all in good condition; The Radix System and Electional Astrology by Robson. The Manual of Astrology, How to make and read your own horoscope by Sepharial, The Foundations Of Astrology and Some Principles of Horoscopic Delineation by CEO Carter, Commonsense Astrology by Louis De Wohl, Astrology and It's Practical Application translated from dutch by E. Parker and two tiny books by Alan Leo- one on Horary the other a book of chart data.

In the Alan Leo book printed in 1917, 1001 Notable Nativities, there's some fascinating data, not least the entry for the signing of the US Declaration. Leo notes: "it was adopted by the Contintental Congress at Philadelphia at 0.10 noon (some authorities give 10 mins later)". His reference for this is Modern Astrology, Vol 1,Old series and The Sphinx, an American monthly edited by Catherine H Thompson vols i and ii 1899 to June 1900 then he says " the declaration was signed 3.4am 4.7.1776 (4th July) congress sat all night debating" and attributes this to Zadkiels The Future, Feb - Dec 1892 Finally he writes..
"Secession of southern States; voting of Resolution of Secession completed 1.15pm 20.12 1860 Columbia, South Carolina" he atrributes this to the same source but Jan - Dec edition 1893.

I don't really want to stir up the whole debate on the correct timing of the chart again but I thought what I had 'tripped across' should be circulated.

If Zadkiel printed 3.4am in 1892 he must have got his data from somewhere and it pre-dates many of the other theories which have arisen over the years.

x
 

Theo

Banned
Futurist said:
Hi

I'm not saying this information will end this debate once and for all but I have certainly stumbled across something.........

I live in Windsor, UK and last week whilst mooching around near Eton College I went into a second hand bookshop - not a charity shop but one of those real old fashioned establishments where the musty smell of the books is overpowering and you have to stoop to avoid hitting the roof. I was just about to ask the old guy running it if he had an esoteric section when I literally tripped over a pile of books with a big hand-drawn sign resting on the top saying 'Astrology'. Well, I thought I had died and gone to heaven when the pile included these original copy books, all in good condition; The Radix System and Electional Astrology by Robson. The Manual of Astrology, How to make and read your own horoscope by Sepharial, The Foundations Of Astrology and Some Principles of Horoscopic Delineation by CEO Carter, Commonsense Astrology by Louis De Wohl, Astrology and It's Practical Application translated from dutch by E. Parker and two tiny books by Alan Leo- one on Horary the other a book of chart data.

In the Alan Leo book printed in 1917, 1001 Notable Nativities, there's some fascinating data, not least the entry for the signing of the US Declaration. Leo notes: "it was adopted by the Contintental Congress at Philadelphia at 0.10 noon (some authorities give 10 mins later)". His reference for this is Modern Astrology, Vol 1,Old series and The Sphinx, an American monthly edited by Catherine H Thompson vols i and ii 1899 to June 1900 then he says " the declaration was signed 3.4am 4.7.1776 (4th July) congress sat all night debating" and attributes this to Zadkiels The Future, Feb - Dec 1892 Finally he writes..
"Secession of southern States; voting of Resolution of Secession completed 1.15pm 20.12 1860 Columbia, South Carolina" he atrributes this to the same source but Jan - Dec edition 1893.

I don't really want to stir up the whole debate on the correct timing of the chart again but I thought what I had 'tripped across' should be circulated.

If Zadkiel printed 3.4am in 1892 he must have got his data from somewhere and it pre-dates many of the other theories which have arisen over the years.
x

Yes, that is good data on the USA chart. However, I continue to state that the "time" is less important than the "date." Franklin was more concerned with the position of the Moon in Capricorn, and its position, as well as the position of the fixed star SIRIUS to the Sun & Jupiter. Waiting for two days until 4 July cleared up the Moon's position from tropical Capricorn to Aquarius, and they settled for that.

Sunrise charts for the date are most accurate. Too many people have misconceptions about "exact time" when casting charts with dubious times, and miss the point of the big picture - planets and stars relative to the Earth at the time of any electional situation - such as signing important documents like the Declaration of Independence.

Franklin, Jefferson, etc., were also night people, and as an astrologer, Franklin did much of his work at night. Franklin was well known for being a nightowl. When the Founding Fathers were dealing with all these major decisions, they often worked at night because the summer days of Philadelphia were oppressively hot. By the time they met in the early mornings, most of their work was hammered out and they wanted things to be done by noon. They had already debated and talked when the temperatures were cooler at night. So, by the daytime, they were ready to sign, and get out of the heat.

A good book astrological election charts, astrology and the Founding Fathers, is David Ovason's book - "The Secret Architecture of Our Nation's Capital. A good read.
 
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