USA charts - the ultimate debate

Theo

Banned
Radu said:
Great! Thanks for the info. Which time do you use for the July 4 chart?
In which way do you consider differently the July 4 chart and the US constitution charts?

Many of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. - including the prime individuals -had knowledge of, and/or practiced astrology - including Franklin, and Jefferson - among others. I've read many of their writings as a boy growing up in Philadelphia, and lived in the neighborhood Franklin founded to escape the summer heat of Independance Hall in downtown Philadelphia.
Do you think that current "Fathers" of US politics use astrology in their activity? (not referring to Reagan, who is famous for this)

Dear Radu,

Sure, you're welcome. I am a judicial astrologer - I use sunrise charts. These charts show the entire day. Often, many astrologers get stuck on "times" which are not always accurate. Sunrise charts note the stars rising, culminating, and setting - then planets near the AC, MC, DC, IC - this is an ancient mundane method for reading time stamps of any moment in time and very accurate.
 

Futurist

Well-known member
Theo said:
'First thing is that the July 4, 1776 signing of the Declaration of Independance was supposed to be signed on July 2, but Benjamin Franklin, an practicing astrologer among his many skills, and occupations -did not want the signing to take place under a Capricorn Moon. He talked with the main writer of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, and both delayed the signing by making themselves unavailable until the Moon had entered Aquarius.'

Hi Theo,
Any chance that you can provide the source of your information? If there is a written reference to Franklin having talked with Jefferson to deliberately delay the signing, it is not only a document of great historical importance, but one which I would expect astrologers to use all the time when trying to explain that Astrology is not 'for entertainment purposes only'. It would also have been referenced on many occasions by the media, when it was discovered that Joan Quigley was advising Reagan.

If however, it is just hearsay, then I am afraid it has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Nick Campion obviously did some very indepth research for his Book of World Horoscopes and he says ' Franklin, probably the only one who knew how to cast a horoscope, left only one written work on Astrology, and that is a satire mocking astrologers. Jefferson owned only three astrological works out of a library of thousands of volumes'

I am sorry if I appear to be putting you on the spot but you have made quite a definitive statement. It obviously makes no difference to the debate about which chart to use (which will never be settled definitively) but, if this was true then one would imagine that the signing of all the other treaties, which Franklin put his name to, may also have been astrologically designated.

many thanks
 

Theo

Banned
Futurist said:
Theo said:
'First thing is that the July 4, 1776 signing of the Declaration of Independance was supposed to be signed on July 2, but Benjamin Franklin, an practicing astrologer among his many skills, and occupations -did not want the signing to take place under a Capricorn Moon. He talked with the main writer of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, and both delayed the signing by making themselves unavailable until the Moon had entered Aquarius.'

Hi Theo,
Any chance that you can provide the source of your information? If there is a written reference to Franklin having talked with Jefferson to deliberately delay the signing, it is not only a document of great historical importance, but one which I would expect astrologers to use all the time when trying to explain that Astrology is not 'for entertainment purposes only'. It would also have been referenced on many occasions by the media, when it was discovered that Joan Quigley was advising Reagan.

If however, it is just hearsay, then I am afraid it has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Nick Campion obviously did some very indepth research for his Book of World Horoscopes and he says ' Franklin, probably the only one who knew how to cast a horoscope, left only one written work on Astrology, and that is a satire mocking astrologers. Jefferson owned only three astrological works out of a library of thousands of volumes'

I am sorry if I appear to be putting you on the spot but you have made quite a definitive statement. It obviously makes no difference to the debate about which chart to use (which will never be settled definitively) but, if this was true then one would imagine that the signing of all the other treaties, which Franklin put his name to, may also have been astrologically designated.

many thanks

Dear Futurist,

One of the things I find disturbing about many "modern astrologers" is often how little they know about astrological history and fact - and this includes Campion, who, in my opinion, is over-rated, and surely lacks information on Franklin, and - on the horoscope of the USA.

Growing up in Philadelphia, it is common knowledge there that Franklin was not only a scientist, printer, publisher, inventor, etc., but also an accomplished astrologer, and astrometeorologist. He was, of course, the founder, and writer of Poor Richard's Alamanc, which forecasted long-range weather using astrology. Most of Franklin's wealth came from publishing this almanac for 25 years. This means he wrote on astrology for that length of time. So, I don't get how Campion would surmise to "find" only one text written on astrology by Franklin since the Almanac of Franklin's contains volumious prose on astrology.

One of the advantages to being an astrologer, and a native Philadelphian is that one can read all the documents at the Philadelphia Historic Society, and also visit many of the actual sites where many original documents exist. I did so as a kid, and lived two blocks away from the summer house of Franklin & others in northwest Philadelphia. Franklin had an observatory built there and lived about 44 miles from Indpendance Hall in the summer because downtown was too darn hot. The neighborhood Franklin chose was cooler by ten to 15 degrees.

I use the morning of July 4 as one chart of the Declaration of Independence and provide this reference to help you & others: "American Scripture: Making the Declaration of Independence," published by Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1997, page 150.

According to records of the day, July 4, 1776, the Declaration was the third order of business, and was completed before noon. The Liberty Bell was also rung at this time.

Dr. Zip Dobyns & James Boehrer both rectified the chart to about 9:36 a.m., Local Mean Time, Phila., Pa for the announcement. I prefer this date, and time, ok, but as a judicial astrologer, I simply cast a chart for true sunrise on Thursday, July 4. You will see Jupiter Rising in tropical Cancer, and the AC at 12-13 Cancer/MC at 22-Pisces, with the Moon at 19-Aquarius.

This is one of the major problems within the so-called astrological "community" in that many do not seem to even have the facts straight, and it is no wonder why there is such a diverse "opinion" on mundane world charts. For instance, I disagree with Campion's attempts to "time" all charts since classical astrology demands sunrise charts for the day in question - times are not required - just the day, and location. This is standard.

Franklin simply wanted the Moon to transit Aquarius when the final draft was to be authenticated. This is the subject of the "disagreement" on July 2 - nothing but timing, that's all. Franklin made sure that Jefferson was on board since he authored the document, and Jefferson did not disappoint, since he studied astrology too. So, Jefferson just waited two days before submitting the "final draft."

Still, I use the Mundane sunrise chart of that day, Thursday, July 4, 1776, Philadelphia. It works for the American Revolution. I also use the mundane sunrise chart for the signing of the U.S. Constitution 17 September 1787 as the official chart of the USA.

Regarding the comment on astrology books and Franklin & Jefferson. I find it very amusing that some would think that, say, because I have three books on any subject in my library among hundreds of other volumes would do anything to "prove" my interest (or lack thereof) on astrology. For instance, I am a judicial astrologer, with a consulting practice, and I have more non-astrological books in my library than astrology books. So, using the format you mentioned above - I am less interested in astrology? Such attempts to "explain away" a historical figure's "interest" or "knowledge" of astrology are mostly made by non-astrological scholars who seem to love trying to "rewrite history" based on their own personal "opinion" of a science they've never studied, or practiced, but who seem to have such strong views on. I always have found this amusing too since if astrology is "false" - they sure seem to be spending many decades trying to "prove" that it is so.

But, counting the number of "books" in anyone's library is not going to do it for me. I find that "method" dubious at best, and ridiculous at worst to prove anything. It is typical of conventional "scholars" not trained in astrology to go to such absurd lengths to say Franklin himself was not an astrologer. Jeez, the guy wrote about astrology at great lengths in his own Almanac for 25 years! One of Franklin's pen names was Richard Saunders. I used to read all that as a boy growing up in Philadelphia.

Astrology is a lot older than the United States - we all know this, but it seems that some just cannot seem to accept that the Founding Fathers of the U.S. would take it so seriously! Perhaps, if they stop using "newspaper Sun-sign astrology" as their total reference to this supreme science - then perhaps they might actually get to Astrology 101 before deciding that three books in Franklin's house suffices it to mean he really treated astrology like he would a comic book.

A simple search engine on Franklin, astrology, and the signing of the Declaration of Independance can be found on the Internet. Franklin was prolific, and wrote extensively on astrology. It is common knowledge that July 2nd was supposed to be the day of the signing. Franklin, and Jefferson, however, did not like the position of the Moon, coming off a square to Saturn, and a direct opposition to Jupiter, and decided that the Moon's transit in Aquarius would suffice with an air trine to Saturn, and the Moon would have cleared the South Lunar Node in Aquarius as well by July 4th.

In the debates of June, and early July, it was decided that signatures would have to be added to the document. This, of course, was tantamount to insurrection but Franklin was more concerned about the transits than upsetting the British. Many members were ready to sign by Tuesday, July 2, but a disagreement delayed the signing. This "disagreement" was Franklin & Jefferson concerned about the transiting Capricorn Moon - so, since Jefferson was the main writer of the Declaration... both he and Franklin made themselves "unavailable" for signing on July 2 - although this date - July 2 - is seen by John Adams as the true date of America's birthday.

Richard Henry Lee of Virginia was trying to push a signing on July 2nd. On that day the Continential Congress passed the resolution declaring the colonies free of British rule. Lee introduced the resolution in June 1776, and by July 2, two resolutions passed written by Lee and cleared the way for Congress to adopt a final draft. John Adams wanted to immediately rush the signing, as did many other delegates. Twelve of the 13 colonies' delegates voted yes (New York was absent) and the Declaration was then ordered to be authenticated and sent to the printers. It took a month for it to return for signing - on August 2 by delegates. The last delegate from Delaware didn't sign it until January 1777.

George Washington was so busy fighting the British that he could not sign it until a year later - on, get this - July 4, 1777. Cast a chart for sunrise on that date, a year later, and look to the Midheaven of the sunrise - 22-Pisces, with Cancer rising, Moon & Sun nearing conjunction; Jupiter fixing position out of tropical Cancer, and into Leo; Lunar Nodes are cardinal, with the Dragon's Head in Cancer, and Dragon's Tail in Capricorn; Venus is rising as Morning star in tropical Gemini; Mercury in Gemini trines Saturn in Libra, with transiting Mars in Libra. Obviously, this signing was a little more than simply "official" - I see Franklin & Jefferson's astrological hands with Washington's signing to the Declaration of Indpendence.

Back to Philadelphia in July 1776: Knowing the document was going to be approved, Franklin charted the Moon's course, spoke to Jefferson, and Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, stated on July 2 that the final draft would be ready by July 4th. The "disagreement" again, was mainly by Adams & others who felt it was ready to sign Tuesday. A "riff raff" sort of came about with delegates shouting they were ready then & there. This was passed off by Franklin, who, convinced Jefferson that July 4's transits were best. Jefferson agreed.

On Thursday, July 4, someone ordered that the Liberty Bell be rung from the Philadelphia State House, and it was, but people paid little attention to it at the time. Knowing how sly Franklin was - I would not doubt it one bit that he also had something to do with that as well. His fingers are found all over the times - and astrology was a major part of his strategies. This is common knowledge in Philadelphia circles.

Re/ the USA horoscope. One of the major problems with many astrologers is that they fight over "times" concerning Mundane Charts. Any astrologer with classical knowledge would know that a simple chart cast for sunrise of any day in history will provide one with the knowledge of potential events to come, or those that have taken place.

I read an ancient text called the "Pistis Sophia" where Mary Magdelene asks Jesus Christ about astrology, and casting horoscopes. Christ told her, and the apostles, that if the Fate (the Sun) is on the left side (rising) then the trained astrologer will forecast correctly. He stated that if the Fate (Sun) was found on the Right side (setting) that nothing the astrologer said would be true.

This came from the classical method of judicial astrology - casting sunrise charts to forecast. I have found it to work very, very well, and can read all the characteristics of the day - even for natal charts with, and without exact times. Even progress them.

Hope this helps.
 

pwadm

Staff member
This is all extremely interesting. Thanl you very much for sharing it with us.

Could you please tell me where in Pistis Sophia did you find that quote?
I didn't know about this text before.
 

Futurist

Well-known member
Jeez Theo - did I hit on a sore point with you or what !! Mars is in Gemini so, let's just say there are always two sides to a story and the fun in the debate over this one is who do you believe? Mars squares Uranus today, well you have certainly produced some suprising, if not shocking information on the very Uranian subject of astrology and sparked a lively debate!. This information can also be seen to be revolutionary (UR) in its nature in that it could revolutionise the way Americans (and the World) view the subject. For what you have just done, with great authority I might add, is changed the way we must all view the 'foundation' of the USA. If the Founding Fathers took it so seriously, then in the eyes of those who totally disbelieve the validity of astrology, this surely is reason to rethink. Mercury RX !!

It is not my intention to get into a 'flame war' with you but simply to discover the truth of this matter. However, I was beginning to lose count of the amount of times you have mentioned in your posts that you are a Judicial astrologer, as if that in someway makes what you are saying carry more weight. I also find it a little bit offensive that you seem to intimate that any form of astrological practice other than your own could not be sound. (Although I have to hold my hand up and say that coincidentally, I changed my profile yesterday and said that I take issue with some modern astrological techniques! but that's another debate).

Anyway, Franklin lived at 36 Craven Street, London (20 mins from me) for nearly sixteen years between 1757 and 1775, Dr Benjamin Franklin was indeed a scientist, diplomat, philosopher, inventor but I can find not one reference on the website of this house to his having been an astrologer. I would like to think that as he only signed the Declaration, one year after this 16 years in London, that he would have left some records of his astrological practice and they would be cited.

Having said that I do not dispute that he may have had a background interest in astrology but his almanacs appear to judge weather conditions on Astronomical data and not Astrological.

You make the statement
Many members were ready to sign by Tuesday, July 2, but a disagreement delayed the signing. This "disagreement" was Frankling & Jefferson concerned about the Capricorn Moon - so, since Jefferson was the main writer of the Declaration... both he and Franklin made themselves "unavailable" for signing on July 2 -

I take issue with the fact that just because you are a native Philadelphian, that you should be an authority on this subject. And anyway aren't the Franklin Papers held in Yale University in Conneticut? I live a few hundred yards from Windsor Castle and have access to documents there but I would never presume to say that this would make me more knowledgeable about the Royal Family. If what you say above is true then I personally need a specific reference .

Most astrologers know that Lois Rodden is one of the best sources of astrological data, making it their business to locate 'dirty data'. Along with the rest of us, they don't know what time it was signed. However, in an extensive discourse on this old chestnut on their site she (or they) state:
We are quite certain that the story of Ben Franklin arranging an early morning signing is apocryphal then passed on as fact. It is untraceable to historic sources."

That last line is very interesting, however I do concede that they may also be ignorant of the facts. So, thank you for your information Theo. I'll copy what you say to Nick Camipon and see if he has any comment on his source. Meanwhile, please take all this more lightheartedly, we should all pull together as a community and not polarise through a belief that some methods are better than others and if we do make authoritative statements and provide data we should always cite specific sources - or preface it with the words 'It is my belief........

Love and light
 

Futurist

Well-known member
Theo,
I received a quick response from Nick Campion. He read the posts and basically said that, as 'Theo' obviously believes what he is saying to be true, then might as well let him get on with it. This led me to examine why I couldn't have been so sanguine about this matter.

It is my belief that we only ever find behaviour objectional in someone else if we are refusing to admit to that trait in ourself. I'm afraid I took exception to the tone of your posts, far more than I took exception to the content. Therefore, I must look to where I may come across as sounding slightly superior or arrogant (my Moon is in Leo!) myself.

I do believe Franklin would have known a great deal about astrology and freemasonary. However, just as mother who elects to have baby by C-section can never be sure that 'consciousness' won't intervene to take the surgeon away at the last moment, or cause equipment to fail or other matters to intervene. I believe that events of major significance are orchestrated by forces which we participate with but, ultimately have no conscious control over. We act unconsciously to fall into rhythms that are a part of a greater consciousness. We 'collaborate with our fate'!

Ultimately, I believe we create our own reality and Theo, you are creating yours but I can only be responsible for mine.

I apologise for the tone of my previous post.

x
 

Theo

Banned
Futurist said:
Jeez Theo - did I hit on a sore point with you or what !! Mars is in Gemini so, let's just say there are always two sides to a story and the fun in the debate over this one is who do you believe? Mars squares Uranus today, well you have certainly produced some suprising, if not shocking information on the very Uranian subject of astrology and sparked a lively debate!. This information can also be seen to be revolutionary (UR) in its nature in that it could revolutionise the way Americans (and the World) view the subject. For what you have just done, with great authority I might add, is changed the way we must all view the 'foundation' of the USA. If the Founding Fathers took it so seriously, then in the eyes of those who totally disbelieve the validity of astrology, this surely is reason to rethink. Mercury RX !!

It is not my intention to get into a 'flame war' with you but simply to discover the truth of this matter. However, I was beginning to lose count of the amount of times you have mentioned in your posts that you are a Judicial astrologer, as if that in someway makes what you are saying carry more weight. I also find it a little bit offensive that you seem to intimate that any form of astrological practice other than your own could not be sound. (Although I have to hold my hand up and say that coincidentally, I changed my profile yesterday and said that I take issue with some modern astrological techniques! but that's another debate).

Anyway, Franklin lived at 36 Craven Street, London (20 mins from me) for nearly sixteen years between 1757 and 1775, Dr Benjamin Franklin was indeed a scientist, diplomat, philosopher, inventor but I can find not one reference on the website of this house to his having been an astrologer. I would like to think that as he only signed the Declaration, one year after this 16 years in London, that he would have left some records of his astrological practice and they would be cited.

Having said that I do not dispute that he may have had a background interest in astrology but his almanacs appear to judge weather conditions on Astronomical data and not Astrological.

You make the statement
Many members were ready to sign by Tuesday, July 2, but a disagreement delayed the signing. This "disagreement" was Frankling & Jefferson concerned about the Capricorn Moon - so, since Jefferson was the main writer of the Declaration... both he and Franklin made themselves "unavailable" for signing on July 2 -

I take issue with the fact that just because you are a native Philadelphian, that you should be an authority on this subject. And anyway aren't the Franklin Papers held in Yale University in Conneticut? I live a few hundred yards from Windsor Castle and have access to documents there but I would never presume to say that this would make me more knowledgeable about the Royal Family. If what you say above is true then I personally need a specific reference .

Most astrologers know that Lois Rodden is one of the best sources of astrological data, making it their business to locate 'dirty data'. Along with the rest of us, they don't know what time it was signed. However, in an extensive discourse on this old chestnut on their site she (or they) state:
We are quite certain that the story of Ben Franklin arranging an early morning signing is apocryphal then passed on as fact. It is untraceable to historic sources."

That last line is very interesting, however I do concede that they may also be ignorant of the facts. So, thank you for your information Theo. I'll copy what you say to Nick Camipon and see if he has any comment on his source. Meanwhile, please take all this more lightheartedly, we should all pull together as a community and not polarise through a belief that some methods are better than others and if we do make authoritative statements and provide data we should always cite specific sources - or preface it with the words 'It is my belief........

Love and light


Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "flaming" - however, there are plenty of sources regarding Benjamin Franklin's work as an astrologer. Just write "Benjamin Franklin and astrology" in a search engine, and there's plenty of material - including Franklin's own writing on astrology.

Re/ weather forecasting - judging weather conditions on astronomical and not astrological? What does that mean? Here are the facts - not my "opinion" or yours - but facts: All short, medium, and long-range weather events centuries prior to the emergence of conventional meteorology in 1900 - was forecasted using judicial astrology - a branch called astro-meteorology, which Franklin practiced using a planetary ephemeris - based on astronomical data that astrologers use, and are responsible for. The classical judicial astrologer Claudius Ptolemy was forecasting weather back in the Second Century. I make no distinction between "astronomy" and "astrology" but that which is technical - that's it. I refer to the modern practice of astronomy to be Conventional Astronomy - which has a very young history (since the 18th century) and is dwarfed by Astrological History & Practice - of the world.

If you really know anything about weather forecasting then you should know that one of the duties of astrologers was to provide long-range weather forecasts - based on the movement of the planets, Moon, Sun - astronomical movements on the physical world. It follows that if celestial transits and their aspects influence the meta-physical worlds then, it must by defintion - affect nature as well - the physical, material world. The same thing as astrology - however, you make a difference. There is none.

Re/ USA charts - there are several of them as astrologers know, but the argument on "exact" time really isn't a big deal since all the dates of the origin of the U.S. are known - so all that is required is a date and a place. I use the July 4 chart for the Revolutionary War and the Sept. 17, 1787 passage of the U.S. Constitution.

Re/ being a Philadelphian - listen, Franklin made his life, and his home in Philadelphia, and it happens to be the place where the country had it origins and also happens to be the place where the Declaration of Independence was written, authenticated, and signed. I grew up there, and grew up around the historical places, and read the documents, including those written by Franklin, who is an institution in Philadelphia. You'd be surprised of the things you can find out in such a place when actually there. If you do your own searching, rather than taking my word for it, you might just find that indeed, despite all attempt to sign the Declaration of Independence on July 2 - it was not signed until July 4 until the Moon entered Aquarius. A fact. Astrology was widely used in colonial times, and astrological almanacs were as popular in the colonies as they were in England - and, by the way, always provided weather forecasts since TV weathermen didn't exist.

Lastly - hey, I just work here. But, there are "astrologers" who are not using classical, and yes, very strict techniques for predictive work - and - despite what some many think - polarizing or not - political correctness means nothing in astrological work. Nothing at all. Yes, a form of "politics" can be used to satisfy personal egos, but, as all true astrologers know - at a terrible price. Nothing is more damaging to an astrologer's vision, and ability to work as ego, and having to satisfy the political whims of others. Transits are CONSTANTLY in motion and the clock must be continually observed, monitored, and forecasts must be made in advance of present time.

There ARE very precise rules, and procedures that are not being used, and astrology has suffered due to this in my opinion. Although we have such lumaries such as Campion, and others who shed much light on astrological techniques, let us not confuse psychological implications with those also of the natural world - the Classicists developed very firm foundational techniques - especially those that mix Judicial & Natural Astrology into one form. The Pistis Sophia, and other ancient classical texts make it clear that those who cast & read charts for the Sun setting in predictive work, and forecasting - are not truthful. The correct method for even writing natal charts without times is for sunrise charts to be cast -noting the angles relative to the Sun-Moon-Earth, angles, and positions of planets, and the fixed stars rising, culminating, or setting at sunrise of the day, or birth in question.

Hey, I didn't write the text man; I just work here, but I was fortunate enough to read it early in my astrological training and have found it to be true - not once failing me - not once. I follow these rules, and maintain that Judicial Astrology and its classical techniques are valid today as they were thousands of years ago.
 

Theo

Banned
Radu said:
This is all extremely interesting. Thanl you very much for sharing it with us.

Could you please tell me where in Pistis Sophia did you find that quote?
I didn't know about this text before.

Hi Radu,

You're welcome. During my early studies in astrology, I read as many Gnostic, and theologic texts related to astrology as I could, and one of the most influential were those Gnostic texts that dealt with the material world and the mundane. According to the Gnostics, humans were made up of both, and both body & soul are part of the mundane portion, but within the human solu is a non-terrestrial element that is called the "pneuma" the "spirit" or the "spark" and this is a portion of the Divine substance from outside the Earth that fell into the material world.

The Coptic Gnostic text, one of the most famous, called the "Pistis Sopia" was very influential to me in my youth. The text was found in Upper Egypt and contains a conversation between Jesus Christ and his disciples.

Christ described his movement through the heavens, and the terror he caused the Archons as he passed through their respective regions -

' "And all the rulers, and all those who are in the Fate, were thrown into agitation and fell on one another and were in exceeding great fear on seeing the great light that was about me....

And Adamas, the great Tyrant, and all the Tyrants in all the aeons began to fight in vain against the Light... And God took from them a third of their power, that they should no more be active in their evil doings... And the Fate and sphere over which they rule, I changed and brought it to pass that they spend six months turned to the left (midheaven) and accomplish their influences, and that six months they face to the right and accomplish their influences..." '


Astrological scholars determined that what Christ was saying was that God had weakened the power of the archons by introducing irregularity into operations of the planets, and arranged the celestial motions so that anyone casting horoscopes would have a greatly diminished chance of being accurate.

Mary Magdalen asks Christ if astrology would continue to be effective since God had not taken away the power of the planets, but just confused it -

' "My Lord, will not then the horoscope-casters and consulters from now on declare unto men what will come to pass for them?" she asked

Christ answered, and said -

"If the horoscope-casters find the Fate and the sphere turned towards the left, according to their first extension, their words will come to pass, and they will say what is to take place. But if they chance on the Fate or the sphere turned to the right, they are bound to say nothing true..."

Further in the Pistis Sophia, Christ gave an discourse on the way the planets and their influences were arranged by God the Creator -

' " God bound eighteen-hundred (1,800) rulers in every aeon, and set three hundred and sixty (360) over them and He set five other great rulers, who in the world of mankind are called with these names: the first is called Kronos (Saturn), the second Ares (Mars) the third Hermes (Mercury) the fourth Aphrodite (Venus) and the fifth Zeus (Jupiter).

Further, Christ explained that the only planet that exercised a good influence is Zeus (Jupiter) and that God the Creator arranged it this way because the planets - "needed a helm to steer the world and the aeons of the sphere, so that they might not wreck it (the world) with their wickness."

Many ancient texts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Gnostic texts state that the prophets were classical astrologers, and that they received their messages from God by observing, calulating, and interpreting the motions in heavens. The precepts, rules, and procedures set down for calculations and interpretations were perfected by celestial observations over the centuries, most notably by Egyptian, Jewish, Hindu, Persian, Greek, and Arab judicial astrologers. My own studies included all of the above, and I mixed them with the further work of modernized European, and American astrological techniques.
 

Theo

Banned
AquariusMoon said:
http://www.ericfrancis.com/issues/0307/full-moon.html

Theo, as you stated, there were many links to "Franklin astrology declaration of independence" on the net. I'd never heard of this before.
Ditto the Gnostic planetary info. Thanks :)


You're welcome. Sometimes, all people have to do is look and the information will be there on matters such as Franklin, Jefferson, and the USA charts. The history is quite factual; but even astrologers have to be reminded of their own astrological history. Glad to be of help.
 

AquariusMoon

Well-known member
Theo, if it is true that BF and TJ were the cause of changing the US chart from a Cap Moon to an Aq Moon, that has changed the course of history and would give BF and TJ lots of karma imo. What responsibility. An Aq Moon is more in keeping with America's ideals imo, but I wonder if a Cap Moon would have kept us out of some wars, what sorts of differences a Cap Moon would have made in the history of the US?

Radu, great thread.

I would think the location of Pluto and tr Pluto would give important clues esp during Hiroshima (Aug 6, 1945) and Nagasaki (Aug 9, 1945), Pres. Kennedy's assassination (Nov 22, 1963) and 9/11. As you say, the transits work out best with the Sibley chart. I believe that is the one The Mountain Astrologer uses and many other astrologers, so it is the one I use.
 

pwadm

Staff member
The recent declaration by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to continue on its nuclear path is considered by media sources as a declaration of diplomatic warfare. It reminds me of Mars in Gemini currently conjunct the USA Sibley chart Descendant.
This declaration came on the day of the Full Moon in Virgo, in square with Pluto, expressing a peak in diplomatic tensions surrounding Iran's nuclear facilities.
 

Theo

Banned
AquariusMoon said:
Theo, if it is true that BF and TJ were the cause of changing the US chart from a Cap Moon to an Aq Moon, that has changed the course of history and would give BF and TJ lots of karma imo. What responsibility. An Aq Moon is more in keeping with America's ideals imo, but I wonder if a Cap Moon would have kept us out of some wars, what sorts of differences a Cap Moon would have made in the history of the US?

Radu, great thread.

I would think the location of Pluto and tr Pluto would give important clues esp during Hiroshima (Aug 6, 1945) and Nagasaki (Aug 9, 1945), Pres. Kennedy's assassination (Nov 22, 1963) and 9/11. As you say, the transits work out best with the Sibley chart. I believe that is the one The Mountain Astrologer uses and many other astrologers, so it is the one I use.

Well, a Moon in Capricorn is not positive - especially in a Mundane chart, and Franklin, and Jefferson recognized this - moreover, the aspects it made in early July 1776 were not condusive to officially authenticating it - so, they made a decision based on astrological knowledge, and made sure it took place after July 2 - which happened. The USA's history is replete with important decisions being made before erections of buildings, and the signing of documents according to astrological transits, and principles.
 

Theo

Banned
AquariusMoon said:
Thanks, Theo.

I know nothing about mundane astrology and will do some basic research on Skyscript :)

Sure, you're welcome. Studying classical, judicial astrology will make anyone a better astrologer. Mundane astrology is but a branch of judicial astrology, but one of the most important because it broadens one's view of celestial transits, and improves one's abilities when working natally as well.
 

Futurist

Well-known member
Radu said:
The recent declaration by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to continue on its nuclear path is considered by media sources as a declaration of diplomatic warfare. It reminds me of Mars in Gemini currently conjunct the USA Sibley chart Descendant.
This declaration came on the day of the Full Moon in Virgo, in square with Pluto, expressing a peak in diplomatic tensions surrounding Iran's nuclear facilities.

Radu, I completely agree - this is looking good for the Sibley option! If anyone can correlate data of significant events to agree with the ASC/MC points of 6 Sco and 21 Gemini then I guess that would be further supporting evidence for this timing. (For the 02.13 ASC/MC would be 25 Leo and 10 Aries). I believe that those who rectify charts use the AS/MC m.p. as it corresponds to 'at this time and this place' and is usually triggered to the precise second in significant events involving a person, so I am hoping this point will prove to be as potent in this discussion. Does anyone out there use the AS/MC point in their work?
 

johan

Well-known member
Kathryn,I get lost in your last post.It is the languagebarrier here! :cry:
I don't understand it,don't know what the degrees you used means,these arent the AC/MC points of the Sibley/Geminichart,are they?So please clarify.I also don't understand what the abbreviation m.p. means.

Well,as I correctly understood,what Radu wrote was a + for the Sibleychart,and Radu mentioned in his first post already that transits and progressions where already more speaking for the Sibleychart.Although the Geminichart was more speaking for the USA itself,further clarified by the Sabian symbols.

I would like an example of those progressions/transits concerning the chart,for further insights.As Aquarian Moon suggested I looked up the transits of Pluto by the bombing of Nagasaki,and really took effort and time but could not find anything.Don't forget Radu,Kathryn and any other advanced astrologers most of the forumeers are like me only beginning astrologystudents,so it would be more than fair if you can explain something of these progressions/transits and how I could read it!It is very annoying if you really give it your best and you cannot find anything!

So hoping for some clarification here so I also can stay involved in the debate here....
 
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