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  #51  
Unread 02-01-2020, 10:12 AM
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passiflora passiflora is offline
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No one was angry or heated. Now that you have mentioned your own anger, I wonder if we were angry
Is it like that?
What do you mean, “self-fulfilling prophecy is not prophecy”? In your original example you used a self-denying prophecy.

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  #52  
Unread 02-01-2020, 10:56 AM
Mohammad690 Mohammad690 is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Any Virgo in your Chart?
Where's your Merc? Mine's in [tropical] Pisces, Peto's is in Libra.....not sure about passiflora.

I like that last observation. Food for thought.

I had actually considered mentioning Heisenberg, but I didn't see the connection you were able to make to the Uncertainty Principle regarding a Chart-reading.
My PoF is in Virgo. Mercury in Sagittarius.

Honestly, it was the Quantum Physics connection that prompted me to ask this question.

Our own consciousness has to figure somewhere in the equation, right?
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  #53  
Unread 02-01-2020, 11:03 AM
Mohammad690 Mohammad690 is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
No one was angry or heated. Now that you have mentioned your own anger, I wonder if we were angry
Is it like that?
What do you mean, “self-fulfilling prophecy is not prophecy”? In your original example you used a self-denying prophecy.
Anger has a way of simmering in the background, doesn’t it? Usually when I feel self-righteous, I get angry easily. Specially regarding what happens on the news.

Regarding self-fulfilling prophecy, what I mean is that there is a prophecy that «*would be true*» if nothing to the contrary, including its observation happened. But what is usually understood by self-fulfilling prophecy is a statement that would not necessarily come true if you don’t believe in it. I don’t know if I did make myself clear or not.
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  #54  
Unread 02-01-2020, 12:51 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Sounds like the prophesy wasn't very accurate :-)
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  #55  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:07 PM
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None of us were angry or heated - I thought, and still do, that we were all in a good mood. I was teasing you about the effect of prediction.

You said “consciousness has to figure in there somewhere.”
That is *precisely* what happens with self-fulfilling prophecy as well as self-denying prophecy. Consciousness affects the outcome.
Some predictions are more settled than others. Determinism applies here. There is a huge range of events that is not settled which people attempt to change the course of events via their response.

Take a look at media predictions. They don’t have the supernatural truth claims of astrology, but you can use them as a proxy as it allows you to expand the spectrum of responses beyond one individual. The media says “Bernie can’t win the election.” What does that prediction mean? It certainly doesn’t mean he can’t win the popular vote, people love his policy when exposed to it without knowing whose they are. It means they want everyone to know that though the people may be for him, the media will not let it happen. That is how centrist self-fulfilling prophecy works, for example. If you repeat something enough time, even lies, people start to believe it. Prophecy affects both belief and behavior.

A self denying prophecy works the other direction to affect people’s behavior. “You’ll never be able to do that.” It might work to motivate some people to do things they wouldn’t even have wanted to, simply because they were challenged. Or in your original example, they take something for granted - and lose it.
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  #56  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:49 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
None of us were angry or heated - I thought, and still do, that we were all in a good mood. I was teasing you about the effect of prediction.

You said “consciousness has to figure in there somewhere.”
That is *precisely* what happens with self-fulfilling prophecy as well as self-denying prophecy. Consciousness affects the outcome.
Some predictions are more settled than others. Determinism applies here. There is a huge range of events that is not settled which people attempt to change the course of events via their response.

Take a look at media predictions. They don’t have the supernatural truth claims of astrology, but you can use them as a proxy as it allows you to expand the spectrum of responses beyond one individual. The media says “Bernie can’t win the election.” What does that prediction mean? It certainly doesn’t mean he can’t win the popular vote, people love his policy when exposed to it without knowing whose they are. It means they want everyone to know that though the people may be for him, the media will not let it happen. That is how centrist self-fulfilling prophecy works, for example. If you repeat something enough time, even lies, people start to believe it. Prophecy affects both belief and behavior.

A self denying prophecy works the other direction to affect people’s behavior. “You’ll never be able to do that.” It might work to motivate some people to do things they wouldn’t even have wanted to, simply because they were challenged. Or in your original example, they take something for granted - and lose it.
Let’s consider it this way:

If I look at tomorrow’s chart and predict it to be a sunny day, would my act of predicting, affect the outcome, either positively or negatively?
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  #57  
Unread 02-01-2020, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post
Let’s consider it this way:

If I look at tomorrow’s chart and predict it to be a sunny day, would my act of predicting, affect the outcome, either positively or negatively?
You have to compare apples to apples, or have a good reason for making apples analogous to oranges. Weather is a different kind of prediction from individual astrological predictions. I would suggest you start close to the original matter and then carefully spread out from there to see how far you can go.
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  #58  
Unread 02-01-2020, 03:40 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Where in Sag is your Mercury?
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  #59  
Unread 02-01-2020, 04:03 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post

Let’s consider it this way:
If I look at tomorrow’s chart
and predict it to be a sunny day, would my act of predicting, affect the outcome,
either positively or negatively?

Lets consider it this way

If everyone living in a particular area
looks at tomorrows chart
and
some predict a sunny day
but
others predict a cloudy day
then the outcome
cannot have been "correctly prophesied by everyone"
and also
unclear their predictions influence the weather
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  #60  
Unread 02-01-2020, 04:04 PM
Mohammad690 Mohammad690 is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
You have to compare apples to apples, or have a good reason for making apples analogous to oranges. Weather is a different kind of prediction from individual astrological predictions. I would suggest you start close to the original matter and then carefully spread out from there to see how far you can go.
I never suggested that I am talking about a natal chart. I used the word prophecy. A prophecy can be about a volcano. No?

Please refer to my point about Quantum Physics. It is much closer to what I am asking.

The purest form of this question is something like this:

When you look at a chart or tarot cards or whatever and predict something, be it a marriage, election, weather, or a market turning point, does your act of «*looking into the future*» or prediction, in any way changes what would have happened?

To reiterate my point about Quantum Physics:

Before you observe an electron, it doesn’t exist in a certain place with a certain speed. It exists «*as a probability wave*» — a range of possibilities.
But the moment you observe it, that probability wave collapses and you pin that electron to a certain speed and place in spacetime continuum.

My question is that when we «*observe*» the future through our readings, do we shrink the range of possibilities in a similar fashion? (Regardless of whether the prediction is true or false)
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  #61  
Unread 02-01-2020, 04:05 PM
Mohammad690 Mohammad690 is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Where in Sag is your Mercury?
In the 17th degree.

You are a Sag Mercury too?
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  #62  
Unread 02-01-2020, 04:09 PM
Mohammad690 Mohammad690 is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Lets consider it this way

If everyone living in a particular area
looks at tomorrows chart
and
some predict a sunny day
but
others predict a cloudy day
then the outcome
cannot have been "correctly prophesied by everyone"
and also
unclear their predictions influence the weather
Exactly.

That’s why I permitted in the premise of my question that the prophecy can be either right or wrong.

This question is a «*development*» on the Zen Koan which says: «*if a tree falls in the forrest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound*».
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  #63  
Unread 02-01-2020, 09:24 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Lets consider it this way

If everyone living in a particular area
looks at tomorrows chart
and
some predict a sunny day
but
others predict a cloudy day
then the outcome
cannot have been "correctly prophesied by everyone"
and also
unclear their predictions influence the weather
True, because the weather is not affected by cognitive biases like self-fulfilling prophecy. That prediction is either true or false regardless of individual factors.

The Israelites would stone to death a false prophet guilty of just one false prophetic prediction - Deut. 18:20.

Last edited by petosiris; 02-01-2020 at 09:32 PM.
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  #64  
Unread 02-01-2020, 09:29 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

True, because the weather is not affected by cognitive biases like self-fulfilling prophecies.
That prophecy is either true or false.

The Israelites would stone to death a false prophet guilty of any false prophetic prediction.
WEATHER MODIFICATION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_modification
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  #65  
Unread 02-01-2020, 10:05 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Can astrologers modify the weather?
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  #66  
Unread 02-01-2020, 10:13 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Can astrologers modify the weather?


Is weather control a dream or nightmare?
https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.o...m-or-nightmare
People are changing the weather, and that may not be good
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  #67  
Unread 02-02-2020, 12:07 AM
freeadia freeadia is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Hi,

This is an interesting question.
First, I like the introduction of quantum mechanics you made. I just read an interesting article https://medium.com/predict/the-doubl...n-ee8384a50e2f
This guy seems to have logical explanation of why when we look at electrons or photons, their wave-quality seems to disappear, or so called collapse of the wave function. He explained nice why the momentum of the particles used (showing by the reflection angle or something like that which slit was the one that the photon/electron under observation passed through) ” to observe” alter the wave function in an unpredictable manner so the interference pattern disappear. The observation procces at that scale influences the experiment (experimental bias).
The unexplained thing is why when electrons or photons are emitted one by one, interference still appear. This is the great mystery, and maybe has to do something with the propeties of space itself.

Back to your question, if prophecies may change the outcome of events.
My first guess would be yes.
My second guess would be, maybe.

Consideration number 1

I would say that symbols, correspondence, complementarity and causality are concept-proccesing lenses that give structure to the world seen through our consciousness.
When we interrogate future, no matter what system we use, I suppose we interrogate the consciousness itself which is not bound to time and space. By interrogation we force it to cristalize in one posibility of time and space and to imprint one moment of the present mind with the reality of a future moment.
First of all, this act of interrogation always has a price. Is like so-called travelling through planes of reality, the conservation of mass and energy.
No matter we talk about the Sphinx, the oracle of Delphi or any other oracle, the price represent a sacrifice of something in present as the future may give something for us in advance.
If we do not consider this dynamic, maybe we get an approximate answer and also we are like thieves of the future which for this reason may deny us the fulfilling.


Consideration number 2

Any voluntary action or intention carries karma or effect. The interrogation is an action. Depending on the entity that give the answer and the entity that receive it, effects may appear relating to the question or in other fields.
I suppose that usual predictions are variable in terms for the purpose to cover more posibilities.
There are two opposite forces in human nature. One who want to be free and one who want to be meant to. Depending on how strong are these forces in one individual (if we suppose they are both present in all humans) then predictions have more or less impact on the individual and also on the probability of prediction to come true. The force behind the will for fate in the individual is the surrender to a greater will. But if there would be a complete surrender, there would be no interrogation. Otherwise, we see how some predictions come true and some don.t.
The request for predestination may show a missing quality of faith, either in yourself or in a higher will.

Conclusion

If you predict weather, you waste your intelligence because there are more precise instruments and mathematical methods to do that. But I get the idea, if the theoretical question influences the outcome of the event. Most of the time not, but the butterfly effect may be caused by a simple question in rare moments. So it is obvious that as a rule, the question, just the question does not interfere with the outcome, but unpredictable exceptions may appear. The answer, the prediction itself, follow the same rule, regarding weather. In personal affairs, when the subject of question is also the agent of the event, interference may appear more frequent, but with unpredictable effects, either favouring or diminishing.

Last edited by freeadia; 02-02-2020 at 12:10 AM.
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  #68  
Unread 02-02-2020, 09:10 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeadia View Post
Hi,

This is an interesting question.
First, I like the introduction of quantum mechanics you made. I just read an interesting article https://medium.com/predict/the-doubl...n-ee8384a50e2f
This guy seems to have logical explanation of why when we look at electrons or photons, their wave-quality seems to disappear, or so called collapse of the wave function. He explained nice why the momentum of the particles used (showing by the reflection angle or something like that which slit was the one that the photon/electron under observation passed through) ” to observe” alter the wave function in an unpredictable manner so the interference pattern disappear. The observation procces at that scale influences the experiment (experimental bias).
The unexplained thing is why when electrons or photons are emitted one by one, interference still appear. This is the great mystery, and maybe has to do something with the propeties of space itself.

Back to your question, if prophecies may change the outcome of events.
My first guess would be yes.
My second guess would be, maybe.

Consideration number 1

I would say that symbols, correspondence, complementarity and causality are concept-proccesing lenses that give structure to the world seen through our consciousness.
When we interrogate future, no matter what system we use, I suppose we interrogate the consciousness itself which is not bound to time and space. By interrogation we force it to cristalize in one posibility of time and space and to imprint one moment of the present mind with the reality of a future moment.
First of all, this act of interrogation always has a price. Is like so-called travelling through planes of reality, the conservation of mass and energy.
No matter we talk about the Sphinx, the oracle of Delphi or any other oracle, the price represent a sacrifice of something in present as the future may give something for us in advance.
If we do not consider this dynamic, maybe we get an approximate answer and also we are like thieves of the future which for this reason may deny us the fulfilling.


Consideration number 2

Any voluntary action or intention carries karma or effect. The interrogation is an action. Depending on the entity that give the answer and the entity that receive it, effects may appear relating to the question or in other fields.
I suppose that usual predictions are variable in terms for the purpose to cover more posibilities.
There are two opposite forces in human nature. One who want to be free and one who want to be meant to. Depending on how strong are these forces in one individual (if we suppose they are both present in all humans) then predictions have more or less impact on the individual and also on the probability of prediction to come true. The force behind the will for fate in the individual is the surrender to a greater will. But if there would be a complete surrender, there would be no interrogation. Otherwise, we see how some predictions come true and some don.t.
The request for predestination may show a missing quality of faith, either in yourself or in a higher will.

Conclusion

If you predict weather, you waste your intelligence because there are more precise instruments and mathematical methods to do that. But I get the idea, if the theoretical question influences the outcome of the event. Most of the time not, but the butterfly effect may be caused by a simple question in rare moments. So it is obvious that as a rule, the question, just the question does not interfere with the outcome, but unpredictable exceptions may appear. The answer, the prediction itself, follow the same rule, regarding weather. In personal affairs, when the subject of question is also the agent of the event, interference may appear more frequent, but with unpredictable effects, either favouring or diminishing.
Very thoughtful and interesting take.

Reading your answer and the link you’ve provided, my thoughts wandered to our own brain waves. Our brains produce electromagnetic waves and if they are strong (or constant) enough, they should affect things constructively or destructively. Yes?

Also, you brought up a good point about karma. A traditional religious view on occult is that it is a sin; i. e. It has bad karma. While I don’t subscribe to that view, but there must be something to it, which is blown out of proportion in my opinion.
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  #69  
Unread 02-02-2020, 01:01 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post

Very thoughtful and interesting take.
Reading your answer and the link you’ve provided, my thoughts wandered to our own brain waves. Our brains produce electromagnetic waves and if they are strong (or constant) enough, they should affect things constructively or destructively. Yes?

Also, you brought up a good point about karma.
A traditional religious view on occult is that it is a sin;
i. e. It has bad karma.
the word 'karma' is frequently misunderstood in the western world

'karma' simply means 'action'
and actions have consequences
actions often/sometimes have unintended consequences
also
we sometimes dislike the consequences of our actions
and so
clearly
'karma' aka 'action' is intrinsically NEITHER 'bad' NOR 'good'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post

While I don’t subscribe to that view, but there must be something to it,
which is blown out of proportion in my opinion.
a commonsense perspective recognises that actions have consequences
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  #70  
Unread 02-02-2020, 01:58 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
the word 'karma' is frequently misunderstood in the western world

'karma' simply means 'action'
and actions have consequences
actions often/sometimes have unintended consequences
also
we sometimes dislike the consequences of our actions
and so
clearly
'karma' aka 'action' is intrinsically NEITHER 'bad' NOR 'good'


a commonsense perspective recognises that actions have consequences
I am aware of the meaning of karma and it is obvious that there is no action without reaction. I was talking about the view that doing the occult, such as astrology is a sin.
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Unread 02-03-2020, 02:10 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post
Very thoughtful and interesting take.

Reading your answer and the link you’ve provided, my thoughts wandered to our own brain waves. Our brains produce electromagnetic waves and if they are strong (or constant) enough, they should affect things constructively or destructively. Yes?
The electromagnetic waves emitted by the human body are in a very different spectrum of frequency than the frequency of the electrons and photons used in experiments, so, to ”affect things” is merely a wishful thinking. Thinking in analogy, how a person.s words would affect the ultrasounds emmited by a dolphin, even if they stay close to each other (they are both mechanic waves). As the experiments of quantum mechanics were repetead many times, by different researchers with different patterns of electromagnetic waves of their bodies, and they obtained the same result, we can assume that any interaction of this kind would be a secondary event irrelevant for the purpose of the experiment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post
Also, you brought up a good point about karma. A traditional religious view on occult is that it is a sin; i. e. It has bad karma. While I don’t subscribe to that view, but there must be something to it, which is blown out of proportion in my opinion.
What quantity and proportion mean in spiritual realms is out of my perception. But in psychic dimension, during personal interpretation of the objective facts that affect self-image, loss of proportion frequently appears and causes a lot of useless sorrow.

Last edited by freeadia; 02-03-2020 at 08:35 PM.
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  #72  
Unread 02-03-2020, 07:06 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post


I am aware of the meaning of karma

and it is obvious that there is no action without reaction.


I was talking about the view that doing the occult, such as astrology

is a sin.

whether or not astrology "is a sin" or not is a matter of personal opinion
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Unread 02-03-2020, 07:16 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeadia View Post

The electromagnetic waves emitted by the human body is in a very different spectrum of frequency than the frequency of the electrons and photons used in experiments, so, to ”affect things” is merely a wishful thinking. Thinking in analogy, how a person.s words would affect the ultrasounds emmited by a dolphin, even if they stay close to each other (they are both mechanic waves). As the experiments of quantum mechanics were repetead many times, by different researchers with different patterns of electromagnetic waves of their bodies, and they obtained the same result, we can assume that any interaction of this kind would be a secondary event irrelevant for the purpose of the experiment.


What quantity and proportion mean in spiritual realms is out of my perception. But in psychic dimension, during personal interpretation of the objective facts that affect self-image, loss of proportion frequently appears and causes a lot of useless sorrow.

The human body emits SOUND
How Do a Plate, Violin Bow, and Sand Enable Us to See Sound?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D03Q7DkWotg


CYMATICS - Bringing matter to life with SOUND
full documentary part 1 of 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmsfuj1Rk9c
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  #74  
Unread 02-03-2020, 11:31 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
The human body emits SOUND
How Do a Plate, Violin Bow, and Sand Enable Us to See Sound?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D03Q7DkWotg


CYMATICS - Bringing matter to life with SOUND
full documentary part 1 of 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmsfuj1Rk9c
This is very stimulating for contemplating the idea of how the sound of a waterfall infleunces on a certain distance, everything around, in an unseen way. Same way, cars horns may change the microscopic pattern of the dust upon windshield, glasses, windows.
I have read a little, some time ago, about Cymatics and I stopped in the face of the blunt though that a human body may be a construct realized as an effect of vibrations played on subatomic scale by a capricious orchestra. I was a little terrified about that but having no proof I thought is just anxiety and a dangerous place to look, like an abyss. I have also read somewhere that is a leggend that in Atlantis, the elite tried to reproduce the original sound of creation and that led to disaster. Or this may be just another myth about misuse of knowledge and consequences.
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Originally Posted by freeadia View Post
This is very stimulating for contemplating the idea of how the sound of a waterfall infleunces on a certain distance, everything around, in an unseen way. Same way, cars horns may change the microscopic pattern of the dust upon windshield, glasses, windows.
I have read a little, some time ago, about Cymatics and I stopped in the face of the blunt though that a human body may be a construct realized as an effect of vibrations played on subatomic scale by a capricious orchestra. I was a little terrified about that but having no proof I thought is just anxiety and a dangerous place to look, like an abyss. I have also read somewhere that is a leggend that in Atlantis, the elite tried to reproduce the original sound of creation and that led to disaster. Or this may be just another myth about misuse of knowledge and consequences.
Analytics does risk this encounter with the abyss in a more frightening way than participation! Yet it’s irresistible. You write very well, incidentally.
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