Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Opposition probably doesn't disqualify it from "therapist". I'm not saying it is not an affliction; I'm just saying that afflictions are not all bad despite the ancient name.

It is not inavlid to personify with a single planet; it is just less reliable. I started with the pairs I learned form Rheinhold Ebertin in The Combination of Stellar Influences, but I added those from Martin Seymour-Smith, and then I discovered my own. I learned that recording artist is Venus/Uranus when that distinction is appropriate on my own. I can't think of the others at the moment, but some are my own discovery after years of this discipline. When you study charts from a database, you see patterns rather boldly.

When you deal with groups of three factors, you see that some groups tend to be benefic despite afflictions, and you see some groups tend to be malefic despite "harmonious" aspects.

What books would you recommend that focuses on midpoints? I asked this question months ago on the forum but there was no dedicated astrologer who utilized midpoints regularly in their practice. I did get some suggestions which I appreciate and have looked through, but I'm curious to know what you may have in mind. As well as any supplementary literature one might need to gain a better mastery over the technique.
 
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Cary2

Banned
What books would you recommend that focuses on midpoints? I asked this question months ago on the forum but there was no dedicated astrologer who utilized midpoints regularly in their practice. I did get some suggestions which I appreciate and have looked through, but I'm curious to know what you may have in mind. As well as any supplementary literature one might need to gain a better mastery over the technique.


I think the best is The New Astrologer by Martin Seymour-Smith. Rheinhold Ebertin's book The Combination of Stellar Influences is better as a reference, and it is a great reference. I believe the Ebertin book also teaches midpoints, but it is the reference part of it that I used. There is a book by McBroom, but I wasn't very impressed with it. If you find it at a bargain, go ahead.

The Ebertin book is just about the best astrology reference book you will find, if you are interested in interpreting charts, but Seymour-Smith book is my favorite, and it completely revolutionized my way of interpreting charts. Plus I love to read Seymour-Smith, he was a British literary critic with a fabulous prose style.

If you own Horoscope Symbols by Robert Hand (many people do), it contains an introduction to midpoints. The planetary pair section of the Hand book is not as helpful as the planetary pairs offered by the other two I mentioned. The planetary pair guide in the Martin Seymour-Smith book is golden; it is a treasure to me.
 
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Cary2

Banned
What's the basic premise of mid-points?


You may wonder why the Cosmobiologists only use hard aspects to midpoints, conj., opp., square, the octiles. The octiles to midpoints are very important, but they require a smaller orb. I think it is because Ebertin's astrology is an event-oriented astrology. The hard aspects are more noticeable. When you practice the Seymour-Smith harmonic charts, you see that all aspects to midpoints matter which is intrinsic to the harmonic charts. I have acquired the habit from Ebertin of using hard aspects.

Any pair of factors in a chart has a closer midpoint and a farther midpoint. I suggest you isolate the closer one and search for aspects to it. The blend of the two factors is found there. Do not assume affliction with the hard aspects that aspect the midpoint; think of it as activation. The planetary chemistry will be a better guide to the benefic/malefic side of the picture. A three-way connection using midpoints is called a "picture".

A SU/MA/JU picture will usually be benefic regardless which aspects link them together, however, if there is a Su/Ju square aspected by a square from Mars, it will be much rockier than most SU/MA/JU pictures. A MA/SA/NE picture will be malefic regardless how the connection is made.

Ebertin first had a different interpretation depending which of the trio was aspect the mp of the other two, and so did Witte. But in the notes, Ebertin finally came to believe that the composition of threesome was the key. So, when I use COSI, I check all three combinations for completeness.

Some planets are emphasizers, Mars, Sun, Moon, and the angles are emphasizers. When an angle is found part of the picture, it emphasizes the pair that is involved. The same for Ma, Su, Mo. That is a general tip, but always think of the three way combination.

Three planets together in a picture are a challenge, but the rewards are sharp definition and specificity. Start interpreting groups of three by breaking them down into pairs. Su/Ju/Ma would be Su/Ju Su/Ma and Ma/Ju. The Ebertin book will be an eye-opener here with his concise three-way interpretations in catalog form.

If the two planets are in aspect, allow a wider orb at their midpoint. If they have something aspecting the midpoint, emphasize the pair's aspect as if it were closer in orb. Wide aspects can become very strong in effect this way.

Sun, Moon, Asc., MC are significators. Any picture containing one of these is much more important. Any picture containing two of these is very, very special. Any picture showing three of these may dominate the whole chart.
 
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ellie04

Well-known member
A lot of people have transpersonal planets aspecting their inner planets, so they're ALL off-putting because they've certain compulsions?

I know 3 Mars square Pluto individuals. One is my childhood friend. Another one is my friend of 20yrs. The last one is the guy I love. Coincidentally they all have Cancer Mars. I've never felt threatened by them. None of them are violent or dangerous, so I think we should stop labelling them this way.

What I can say about them is they each have their own authoritarian views on things so they can come across strong, but they've never forced me to conform (it will not be possible anyway, LOL). Survivor instincts are strong and they can withstand a lot of hardships for long periods of time.

It is said that Mars/Pluto people are not afraid of confrontations and people think they pick fights, but that's not what I see. My childhood friend, for e.g., always walk away from a quarrel.
 

freudsghost

New member
I know this thread is a few years old hut I was searching for mars/pluto aspect interpretations because of my own chart.

I would very likely be extremely unsettling to you. I have mars conjoined pluto with less than 01° conjoined my asc with less than 01° in scorpio. It's my tightest aspect and most prominent. This aspect is also trine my Pisces moon in the 5th by less than 03° (the rest of my chart is an extremely tight bundle of saturn, mercury, sun, venus uranus and neptune in Sagittarius, Jupiter in aquarius, my whole chart is 1st - 5th house, 2nd house dominant)

I can verify that my mind, my inner world is extremely intense. Sometimes dark. The darkness comes from extreme childhood trauma. I was severely abused (physically, sexually, emotionally) by my mother. I was estranged from her at 4 and taken in by my grandparents. And then taken back in by my mother years later, where she continued the abuse. I was in an extremely violent relationship/marriage from 19-23yo. I had to save myself at quite a young age and then again as a young adult.

I also have a curious relationship with death. I've always felt that it somehow follows me. I've had many close friends and family members pass away, I've been present for many deaths and have had someone close with me die unexpectedly nearly every year of my life. When I was 3 I was present for a family members very violent and traumatic death (think of a scene with a young child covered in blood spray).

As far as my inner world you are correct when you say it's very hard for these people to share. I'm not secretive on purpose, but I very rarely share my most private thoughts with people I do not feel extremely close with and trust completely. I am able to have long term stable relationships though where I do share my inner world no matter how painful. The way I have described my mind is a hurricane or tsunami on fire, a field that's been razed and regrown, when I was very young it felt like too much time in my own head was painful because of the intense destruction and regrowth I could see in my minds eye.

I'm unusually drawn to water dominant people, especially other scorpios. Most of my romantic partners have been scorpio dominant. By best friends are a scorpio, a piscean and a cancer. All with dominant scorpio aspects.

I am extremely driven both athletically and academically. I played collegiate sports (cross country runner, marathon runner) and I have a PhD.

I focused early on sports and academics and have always been rather self aware. As I get older I do a lot of introspection, it's actually what most people will say about me. Driven and introspective and a survivor. However, my therapists have said I'm surprisingly sunny and have quite a positive outlook for the amount of trauma I have! (we love a positive review lol!)

I can also say that years of therapy (due to all that pesky trauma) have really helped me focus an staying healthy and keeping depression in check.

It's a bit funny that you mentioned that mars/pluto people can survive anything. I would agree! I've survived abuse, trauma, near death experiences, and been under extreme amounts of stress at a near constant pace my whole life. I think to most people it would be an extremely intense experience and quite chaotic. But I'm still here, and I plan on being around for a good long while yet. I've just focused my life on being as self aware and honest as I can be and to put positive creations and discoveries into the world through my career and hobbies.
 

Deborah

New member
A pattern I've noticed is I tend to be wary and sort of repulsed by people who have multiple aspects between their natal planets and Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto, or when at least one of the 3 outer planets aspects their ascendant or falls in an angular house. It's like they possess a kind of energy I can't understand or harness.

One of my least favorite aspects in someone else's natal chart, and one I've noticed in the charts of a few people I deem to be crazy / unstable in some way, is a connection between Mars and Pluto. This is adding to the list that contains aspects such as Sun / Moon-Uranus, Sun / Moon-Neptune, and Mercury-Uranus / Neptune. While those aspects can make someone very unusual / eccentric, whether they're smooth or challenging, I noticed this aspect has the potential to make someone extremely dangerous and volatile unless there are key mitigating factors and / or if the Mars-Pluto have enough distance between each other.

I've read it's one of the aspects most commonly found in the charts of career criminals including some of the most infamous serial killers in modern times. Mars-Pluto represents the convergence of two potentially malefic energies, one that I feel many people do not know how to channel. Mars alone is impulsive, driven, and combative, but Pluto adds darkness, secrecy, lust for power and control, and the desire to destroy / transform with an almost inhuman strength and a ruthless desire to survive and get by at all costs. A very dangerous combination indeed.

Now you may wonder, does a Mars-Pluto connection simply point to a Scorpio-like energy? I think while it does highlight many of Scorpio's negative traits, it's a more raw and darker expression of that energy compared to someone who's simply a Scorpio. Regardless of someone's sun sign, it seems like this aspect gives them a side to their personality that's Machiavellian at the least, and utterly manipulative and destructive at most.

Mars-Pluto gives someone a raging fire deep within their souls and psyches. A need to transform both their inner landscape and the world around them into both a metaphorical and literal battlefield of some sort. It's like these people find it almost impossible to truly be at peace with either themselves or others, because Pluto means regeneration and transformation. They may show you glimpses of their anger through outbursts and heated words, but you're only scratching their surface. I highly doubt these people will reveal the full extent, or even a large extent of their true feelings. You can never quite figure them out as they both consciously and subconsciously feel the need to maintain a degree of separation from everyone.

Intimate relationships with these people can be very challenging, because they give off a kind of energy that makes you never quite able to feel at ease with them, yet when you try to close the distance and really try to understand them they fight back and shut themselves. I think this is especially the case if they also have prominent Uranus / Neptune. You feel like you can never really get to know them. They tend to be domineering and manipulative, never at peace with themselves, and feel a need to control and change people around them into people they're not. When people resist, they feel a deep sense of resentment that has the potential to drive them into taking extreme actions. To have Mars-Pluto and to feel at ease with yourself and with others are inherently contradictory states of being, unless there are several mitigating factors or unless the individual possesses an extremely high degree of self-awareness.

Mars-Pluto fuses an infantile force with one that's dark and scheming. As a Cancer, I feel as if my nurturing sensitivity can't tame the beast in these people, because they'll feel something's missing in their lives if they can't fight, if they can't control, if they can't transform. If I get too close to them, their flames of darkness will repel me. If I get too close to these people, sometimes I feel their energy also affects me negatively. The fighter / killer instinct in them also rouses mine in a strange way that makes me want to kill them because I also start to feel a kind of seething rage towards them. It's like I consider them trash that the world would be better off without.

These people have such a strong survival instinct even in the face of seemingly insurmountable crises. They'll do just about anything to survive, to get by. They also have a frightening ability to control themselves and suppress emotions, yet it's all to conceal the dark, raging fire underneath. They seem to never show any fear, and may even welcome situations (consciously and / or subconsciously) that bring others lots of fear and uneasiness. They'll never quite be happy with themselves or the people in close relationships with them unless they're mature and self-aware to the point where they can channel these two energies effectively and efficiently.

Someone I know with Mars-Pluto in opposition (less than 2 degrees apart) treats people with a utilitarian attitude, though she'll rarely admit it. Her 'me, me, me' (Mars) combined with Pluto's desire to control, manipulate, and destroy gives her great difficulty in all of her relationships, but at the same time people can never quite figure her out because she maintains emotional distance from everyone in her life. She went through a troubled marriage and divorce and deeply resents her ex-husband even after almost 20 years, but still keeps him on social media and refuses to delete him. I asked her why, and she said "you should always keep people around when they may be of use to you. Even if you hate them, you can just ignore them whenever you wish, but if they're of use to you in some way you must not outright cut ties with them." She also desires to see her ex-husband miserable, although she'll never admit it. If someone asked her she'll say "I wish the best for him." I have absolutely no clue how her ex-husband may still be "of use" to her considering the fact they've been divorced for so long and he has remarried, and I guess I'll never find out what she truly thinks and why she does the things the does on just about everything, and in my opinion, such people will be determined to take their secrets to the grave. She also has Mars in Pisces (28.59 degrees) in the 8th house.

I believe that Mars-Pluto people, unless they put great effort into being aware of this energy and working to overcome it, will find it nearly impossible to bond with others in a way that's healthy and productive for both sides. They need to realize that their relationship with themselves, with others, and with life in general does not need to be a constant state of war and tension. To find the peace and tranquility that will benefit both themselves and others, they need to let go and move on from their "default" state of mind / being which dictates to them that there must always be something going on, something that keeps them on their feet and / or occupied in their minds. In terms of their expectations, they need to be aware of their desire to constantly manipulate and transform both themselves and those around them. If they can channel the volatile energy into a way that allows for its effective release without harming themselves or others, then that would be best. They need to set realistic expectations for themselves and for others, accepting that peace and stability are not only equally valid ways of being, but ultimately higher and more positive ways of being. Until they learn to extinguish these dark flames within themselves, they will project their darkness onto others, and any perceived undesirable aspects in others will be viewed beyond mere annoyances and things to accept / work with, but things that need to be destroyed so that they can remake the other person but only in their image and on their terms. When that fails due to the other person's unwillingness, Mars-Pluto people often hit a dead end and they fall even deeper into their emotional black hole. Sadly, most people never know how to handle

I've also read natal planet-Pluto can mean dark family secrets that have a significant influence on one's personality and life course. From your experience, is that true?

For those of you here who know people with a Mars-Pluto aspect, or if you have one yourself, what are your feelings and experiences with it? Do you feel it's something that can potentially make someone, or yourself, very volatile?


it.
I concur with much of this statement as it mirrors my own experiences with a number of individuals who have a "harsh" Mars/Pluto connection. It's a very sociopathic aspect.
 

Sunflower07

New member
Jen studie, kterou jsem viděl, jeden z nejvyšších aspektů běžných u vrahů / vražd je Mars-Venuše. (zločiny z vášně)

Mars-Uran je jedním z dalších nejvyšších. (Nízká tolerance frustrace)

Mars-Pluto není vysoký v počtu vražd, ale je vysoký v sebevraždách.

Mám Mars kvadraturu Venuše (a 9. harmonický Uran konj Venuše). Střed Venuše/Uranu sedí částečně na mém Slunci. Mars/Uran uprostřed 45 od mého Slunce také.
Uran+Mars je velmi podobný Štíru. (Moje Venuše je v tom všem ve Štíru, takže to nepomáhá nic vyvážit).

Mohu říci, že lidé s energií Mars/Uran jsou pravděpodobně více tím, co bych považoval za nebezpečné pro ostatní, verus Pluto-Mars, které mají tendenci být více vnitřně destruktivní. [Venuše a Uran jsou společensky a dodávají, že s fyzickým a rozzlobeným Marsem je jeho Pluto asociální s Marsem].

Aspekt Mars/pluto- sebevražda potvrzuji. Osobní zkušenost

[please write your post in English - Moderator]
 
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Deborah

New member
I know 3 people with tight Mars Pluto squares, and I'd have to say, you nailed it and described quite eloquently the
simmering rage they all carry and yet conceal. There is also a very competitive nature with each of them - everyone is viewed as someone to "best" and one-up - to the point that I would consider it pathological ... and yet compassionately I know it's borne of a serious inferiority complex and is some type of compensation for early attachment trauma which they all suffer from. Interestingly, all 2 of these women have mothers who were addicts (tranquilizers) and the other was an alcoholic. The upside of a relationship with them (I only only connected to 1 at this point as the other 2 were just too vile), is that they can have quite a playful nature "at times" .... and can be incredibly insightful.
I wonder about this connection to the mother ... early attachment trauma ... and malignant narcissism and think it would be a very interesting study to see if Mars/Pluto showed up in a statistically significant way in the birth charts of socipathic individuals.
 

.madeleine.grace.

Well-known member
A pattern I've noticed is I tend to be wary and sort of repulsed by people who have multiple aspects between their natal planets and Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto, or when at least one of the 3 outer planets aspects their ascendant or falls in an angular house. It's like they possess a kind of energy I can't understand or harness.

One of my least favorite aspects in someone else's natal chart, and one I've noticed in the charts of a few people I deem to be crazy / unstable in some way, is a connection between Mars and Pluto. This is adding to the list that contains aspects such as Sun / Moon-Uranus, Sun / Moon-Neptune, and Mercury-Uranus / Neptune. While those aspects can make someone very unusual / eccentric, whether they're smooth or challenging, I noticed this aspect has the potential to make someone extremely dangerous and volatile unless there are key mitigating factors and / or if the Mars-Pluto have enough distance between each other.

I've read it's one of the aspects most commonly found in the charts of career criminals including some of the most infamous serial killers in modern times. Mars-Pluto represents the convergence of two potentially malefic energies, one that I feel many people do not know how to channel. Mars alone is impulsive, driven, and combative, but Pluto adds darkness, secrecy, lust for power and control, and the desire to destroy / transform with an almost inhuman strength and a ruthless desire to survive and get by at all costs. A very dangerous combination indeed.

Now you may wonder, does a Mars-Pluto connection simply point to a Scorpio-like energy? I think while it does highlight many of Scorpio's negative traits, it's a more raw and darker expression of that energy compared to someone who's simply a Scorpio. Regardless of someone's sun sign, it seems like this aspect gives them a side to their personality that's Machiavellian at the least, and utterly manipulative and destructive at most.

Mars-Pluto gives someone a raging fire deep within their souls and psyches. A need to transform both their inner landscape and the world around them into both a metaphorical and literal battlefield of some sort. It's like these people find it almost impossible to truly be at peace with either themselves or others, because Pluto means regeneration and transformation. They may show you glimpses of their anger through outbursts and heated words, but you're only scratching their surface. I highly doubt these people will reveal the full extent, or even a large extent of their true feelings. You can never quite figure them out as they both consciously and subconsciously feel the need to maintain a degree of separation from everyone.

Intimate relationships with these people can be very challenging, because they give off a kind of energy that makes you never quite able to feel at ease with them, yet when you try to close the distance and really try to understand them they fight back and shut themselves. I think this is especially the case if they also have prominent Uranus / Neptune. You feel like you can never really get to know them. They tend to be domineering and manipulative, never at peace with themselves, and feel a need to control and change people around them into people they're not. When people resist, they feel a deep sense of resentment that has the potential to drive them into taking extreme actions. To have Mars-Pluto and to feel at ease with yourself and with others are inherently contradictory states of being, unless there are several mitigating factors or unless the individual possesses an extremely high degree of self-awareness.

Mars-Pluto fuses an infantile force with one that's dark and scheming. As a Cancer, I feel as if my nurturing sensitivity can't tame the beast in these people, because they'll feel something's missing in their lives if they can't fight, if they can't control, if they can't transform. If I get too close to them, their flames of darkness will repel me. If I get too close to these people, sometimes I feel their energy also affects me negatively. The fighter / killer instinct in them also rouses mine in a strange way that makes me want to kill them because I also start to feel a kind of seething rage towards them. It's like I consider them trash that the world would be better off without.

These people have such a strong survival instinct even in the face of seemingly insurmountable crises. They'll do just about anything to survive, to get by. They also have a frightening ability to control themselves and suppress emotions, yet it's all to conceal the dark, raging fire underneath. They seem to never show any fear, and may even welcome situations (consciously and / or subconsciously) that bring others lots of fear and uneasiness. They'll never quite be happy with themselves or the people in close relationships with them unless they're mature and self-aware to the point where they can channel these two energies effectively and efficiently.

Someone I know with Mars-Pluto in opposition (less than 2 degrees apart) treats people with a utilitarian attitude, though she'll rarely admit it. Her 'me, me, me' (Mars) combined with Pluto's desire to control, manipulate, and destroy gives her great difficulty in all of her relationships, but at the same time people can never quite figure her out because she maintains emotional distance from everyone in her life. She went through a troubled marriage and divorce and deeply resents her ex-husband even after almost 20 years, but still keeps him on social media and refuses to delete him. I asked her why, and she said "you should always keep people around when they may be of use to you. Even if you hate them, you can just ignore them whenever you wish, but if they're of use to you in some way you must not outright cut ties with them." She also desires to see her ex-husband miserable, although she'll never admit it. If someone asked her she'll say "I wish the best for him." I have absolutely no clue how her ex-husband may still be "of use" to her considering the fact they've been divorced for so long and he has remarried, and I guess I'll never find out what she truly thinks and why she does the things the does on just about everything, and in my opinion, such people will be determined to take their secrets to the grave. She also has Mars in Pisces (28.59 degrees) in the 8th house.

I believe that Mars-Pluto people, unless they put great effort into being aware of this energy and working to overcome it, will find it nearly impossible to bond with others in a way that's healthy and productive for both sides. They need to realize that their relationship with themselves, with others, and with life in general does not need to be a constant state of war and tension. To find the peace and tranquility that will benefit both themselves and others, they need to let go and move on from their "default" state of mind / being which dictates to them that there must always be something going on, something that keeps them on their feet and / or occupied in their minds. In terms of their expectations, they need to be aware of their desire to constantly manipulate and transform both themselves and those around them. If they can channel the volatile energy into a way that allows for its effective release without harming themselves or others, then that would be best. They need to set realistic expectations for themselves and for others, accepting that peace and stability are not only equally valid ways of being, but ultimately higher and more positive ways of being. Until they learn to extinguish these dark flames within themselves, they will project their darkness onto others, and any perceived undesirable aspects in others will be viewed beyond mere annoyances and things to accept / work with, but things that need to be destroyed so that they can remake the other person but only in their image and on their terms. When that fails due to the other person's unwillingness, Mars-Pluto people often hit a dead end and they fall even deeper into their emotional black hole. Sadly, most people never know how to handle

I've also read natal planet-Pluto can mean dark family secrets that have a significant influence on one's personality and life course. From your experience, is that true?

For those of you here who know people with a Mars-Pluto aspect, or if you have one yourself, what are your feelings and experiences with it? Do you feel it's something that can potentially make someone, or yourself, very volatile?


it.
This is all so hurtful… but true. I will admit, I got sad, angry, depressed, curious, and felt overly exposed as i was reading this.
34D0C51E-FD1B-4A1A-B0E2-ADF395D99534.jpeg
 

Teaxia

New member
I have mars in Taurus the 8th house opposite Pluto in Scorpio in the 2nd house. At the 29th degree! They both are square my Leo Venus in the 11th, so the three are a part of a Mars-Venus-Pluto t-square configuration. I can confirm the family secrets thing. I’m a survivor of sexual abuse in childhood, and I found out I basically “inherited” those traumas from my maternal grandmother, so that I can assist in breaking the generational curse. I went through a period of essentially retraumatizing myself through drug use and many things that went along with it. Highly suggest people with these aspects avoid releasing/quieting the intensity with substances, alcohol included. I feel as though I’ve lived multiple lives and I am at the age where I only just now am about to have my Saturn return (next year). I will say I have regenerative power. This might baffle some, but I actually had a paranormal research group working with me a few years back..because all of the suppressed rage that was stewing inside of my body literally projected outside of myself into physical form (a poltergeist). It wasn’t until we realized I was causing it, that the activity quickly began to slow down and come to a halt. I regained my sense of control at that point, and that changed everything. It was terrifying, but a life-changing experience for me, and it reminded me to be responsible for these energies. They are surely not meant to be trapped inside. They are meant to be transmuted. I was conditioned through my environment growing up to react to the world with such vigilance, and to suppress my emotions. It wasn’t until I realized there is so much more power in acknowledging these energies and actually using them, expressing them, for something good, for the greater good even.



I swing between between being quiet as a mouse, to being too loud and even too passionate for some. Both modes have been commented on and scrutinized by people. I suppose that’s the opposition right there also, I need to integrate still. The energy only seems to display in extremes… that tired, quiet, last degree of Taurus mars mode, or my ruthless, ready for battle mode, that rarely shows itself to the public. Mostly, the outwardly raging side only comes out in romantic relationships, I have Mars square Venus as well. Sometimes I sense that I intimidate others sometimes, even though I’m a 5’0” tall woman. To be honest, anyone who knows me will tell you I’m brave.. I am brave and I know I can survive anything. However, to be honest I am intimidated by many people myself, so as a protective mechanism I utilize these Mars-Pluto energies to appear confident, untouchable, and charismatic, when I feel it’s necessary to ramp them up. Around a person in a position of authority, for example, I make sure to come across as very confident so as to not get caught up in power plays, which will happen if I am in that opposite “quiet mouse” mode that I can easily fall into. The truth is I have strong anxiety about interacting with people. I‘ve experienced first hand truly just how dark, deceitful, and utterly terrifying people can be. It is very difficult for me to trust people enough to share bits of myself with them, even though I crave intimacy so badly (moon 8th house). This isn’t talked about enough, but there’s this sort of death anxiety Pluto and Scorpio can cause…in my childhood, everyone knew me as being terrified of everything, thunderstorms, fireworks, my own 7 year old self terrified myself one Halloween upon seeing my face painted green. I cried in fear. I was afraid of my own self, too. I perceived that these were things that didn’t seem to instill fear in my siblings, friends, or peers. I interpret this, and my still-present fear of humans, as so Mars in opposition to Pluto, a social/generational planet. I perceived a difference in myself, how I moved through the world, versus(the opposition) the way others seemed to. There was very real trauma occurring regularly throughout my childhood, so the fear I had as a kid over external forces outside of myself hurting me makes sense. As a very young child, my fear of life was not concealed, I displayed it and expressed it shamelessly, in a raw, real way. It became part of my reputation growing up, to the point of where I grew to feel so ashamed of showing it once I realized my fear, my emotions, were a nuisance to other people. My thinking as a kid eventually became: people noticed my fear, it sticks out to them, I feel ashamed about it, so there must be something wrong with me, so to survive (Mars) in this society/my generation (Pluto) I must not reveal my vulnerability (hidden/not revealing: Pluto). Since this was a not so subconscious decision, it ended up being an extreme, and Mars and Pluto are both extreme and intense on their own. With extremes comes….imbalance. My whole life is about cultivating balance; Libra rising with a see-saw chart. Anyway, all of this influenced my mars-pluto urge to suppress, or rather, hide away the depths of my emotions from the visibility of others. My brother in law asked my sister once, “if she was so terrified of everything growing up, then why did she behave so recklessly and live so dangerously when she was a young adult?” Another thing, I‘m really passionate about the occult and metaphysics, and have been since I was a kid, so I will confirm that descriptor of the placement of my mars. Needless to say I find the most relief in sex and it seems to be nearly necessary for me to do regularly, its where I express myself, where I am most confident..I guess that’s my Leo Venus being the focal point of mars opposite Pluto coming out.



Knowing death and Hades‘ realm so closely, as closely as I could by my own choosing at certain points, is what eventually drove my transformations. I have overdosed 5 times and it absolutely floors me that I was lucky enough each time to have had someone find me to call an ambulance.. .Interesting tidbit here, my brother, as a teen rescued my from my first overdose, he found me. He is a Scorpio rising with mars in Scorpio, mars conjunct Pluto. He has superhuman strength, emotionally and physically. All in all, we have a very Plutonic/Scorpionic family (no surprise.) It seems I inherited the Venus square Pluto and Mars-Pluto aspects from our mother (she has the conjunction, in Virgo). Our father also had Venus square mars, his was more similar to mine, fixed: Venus in Scorpio square Mars in Leo. He had a Scorpio stellium, sun in 8th, and mars was his chart ruler. The moon is my moms chart ruler, and interestingly enough, I perceived them both as being overly-aggressive growing up, and my moon & mars are in the same sign, both making hard aspect, and both in the 8th house.



Side note: I do also have moon in the 8th, and my north node in Scorpio 2nd House is conjunct Pluto. BML in the 8th as well, if that counts for explaining trauma and the urge towards transforming. My north node conjunct Pluto confirms to me that it is my destiny to sort through this battle.. if south node Taurus 8th house is what comes easy to me, then the challenge and growth lies in integrating Pluto in a way that creates balance in my life. Pluto urges my Venus and Mars to do some real shadow work. To transform. To stay on my north nodes path. Also, Venus is not only the focal point of my Mars-Venus-Pluto t-square, and she is also my chart ruler.. sigh
 
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c s

Well-known member
Great thread. Very illuminating read. I have natal Mars on MC opposite Pluto on IC. Both planets are also in a T Square the Sun. So it’s intense. I am peace loving, kind and very very private. But I have experienced insecurities and jealousies from people as well as unprecedented love. I seem to invoke feelings.
I am incisive in the sense I see through people and understand their inner motivations very quickly. I do not hold grudges and never harmed anyone, though I do have a temper.
Posting here after many years. I was regular on another forum that closed down recently. I miss being on a forum such as this one. Will try to be regular here henceforth :)
 

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A pattern I've noticed is I tend to be wary and sort of repulsed by people who have multiple aspects between their natal planets and Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto, or when at least one of the 3 outer planets aspects their ascendant or falls in an angular house. It's like they possess a kind of energy I can't understand or harness.

One of my least favorite aspects in someone else's natal chart, and one I've noticed in the charts of a few people I deem to be crazy / unstable in some way, is a connection between Mars and Pluto. This is adding to the list that contains aspects such as Sun / Moon-Uranus, Sun / Moon-Neptune, and Mercury-Uranus / Neptune. While those aspects can make someone very unusual / eccentric, whether they're smooth or challenging, I noticed this aspect has the potential to make someone extremely dangerous and volatile unless there are key mitigating factors and / or if the Mars-Pluto have enough distance between each other.

I've read it's one of the aspects most commonly found in the charts of career criminals including some of the most infamous serial killers in modern times. Mars-Pluto represents the convergence of two potentially malefic energies, one that I feel many people do not know how to channel. Mars alone is impulsive, driven, and combative, but Pluto adds darkness, secrecy, lust for power and control, and the desire to destroy / transform with an almost inhuman strength and a ruthless desire to survive and get by at all costs. A very dangerous combination indeed.

Now you may wonder, does a Mars-Pluto connection simply point to a Scorpio-like energy? I think while it does highlight many of Scorpio's negative traits, it's a more raw and darker expression of that energy compared to someone who's simply a Scorpio. Regardless of someone's sun sign, it seems like this aspect gives them a side to their personality that's Machiavellian at the least, and utterly manipulative and destructive at most.

Mars-Pluto gives someone a raging fire deep within their souls and psyches. A need to transform both their inner landscape and the world around them into both a metaphorical and literal battlefield of some sort. It's like these people find it almost impossible to truly be at peace with either themselves or others, because Pluto means regeneration and transformation. They may show you glimpses of their anger through outbursts and heated words, but you're only scratching their surface. I highly doubt these people will reveal the full extent, or even a large extent of their true feelings. You can never quite figure them out as they both consciously and subconsciously feel the need to maintain a degree of separation from everyone.

Intimate relationships with these people can be very challenging, because they give off a kind of energy that makes you never quite able to feel at ease with them, yet when you try to close the distance and really try to understand them they fight back and shut themselves. I think this is especially the case if they also have prominent Uranus / Neptune. You feel like you can never really get to know them. They tend to be domineering and manipulative, never at peace with themselves, and feel a need to control and change people around them into people they're not. When people resist, they feel a deep sense of resentment that has the potential to drive them into taking extreme actions. To have Mars-Pluto and to feel at ease with yourself and with others are inherently contradictory states of being, unless there are several mitigating factors or unless the individual possesses an extremely high degree of self-awareness.

Mars-Pluto fuses an infantile force with one that's dark and scheming. As a Cancer, I feel as if my nurturing sensitivity can't tame the beast in these people, because they'll feel something's missing in their lives if they can't fight, if they can't control, if they can't transform. If I get too close to them, their flames of darkness will repel me. If I get too close to these people, sometimes I feel their energy also affects me negatively. The fighter / killer instinct in them also rouses mine in a strange way that makes me want to kill them because I also start to feel a kind of seething rage towards them. It's like I consider them trash that the world would be better off without.

These people have such a strong survival instinct even in the face of seemingly insurmountable crises. They'll do just about anything to survive, to get by. They also have a frightening ability to control themselves and suppress emotions, yet it's all to conceal the dark, raging fire underneath. They seem to never show any fear, and may even welcome situations (consciously and / or subconsciously) that bring others lots of fear and uneasiness. They'll never quite be happy with themselves or the people in close relationships with them unless they're mature and self-aware to the point where they can channel these two energies effectively and efficiently.

Someone I know with Mars-Pluto in opposition (less than 2 degrees apart) treats people with a utilitarian attitude, though she'll rarely admit it. Her 'me, me, me' (Mars) combined with Pluto's desire to control, manipulate, and destroy gives her great difficulty in all of her relationships, but at the same time people can never quite figure her out because she maintains emotional distance from everyone in her life. She went through a troubled marriage and divorce and deeply resents her ex-husband even after almost 20 years, but still keeps him on social media and refuses to delete him. I asked her why, and she said "you should always keep people around when they may be of use to you. Even if you hate them, you can just ignore them whenever you wish, but if they're of use to you in some way you must not outright cut ties with them." She also desires to see her ex-husband miserable, although she'll never admit it. If someone asked her she'll say "I wish the best for him." I have absolutely no clue how her ex-husband may still be "of use" to her considering the fact they've been divorced for so long and he has remarried, and I guess I'll never find out what she truly thinks and why she does the things the does on just about everything, and in my opinion, such people will be determined to take their secrets to the grave. She also has Mars in Pisces (28.59 degrees) in the 8th house.

I believe that Mars-Pluto people, unless they put great effort into being aware of this energy and working to overcome it, will find it nearly impossible to bond with others in a way that's healthy and productive for both sides. They need to realize that their relationship with themselves, with others, and with life in general does not need to be a constant state of war and tension. To find the peace and tranquility that will benefit both themselves and others, they need to let go and move on from their "default" state of mind / being which dictates to them that there must always be something going on, something that keeps them on their feet and / or occupied in their minds. In terms of their expectations, they need to be aware of their desire to constantly manipulate and transform both themselves and those around them. If they can channel the volatile energy into a way that allows for its effective release without harming themselves or others, then that would be best. They need to set realistic expectations for themselves and for others, accepting that peace and stability are not only equally valid ways of being, but ultimately higher and more positive ways of being. Until they learn to extinguish these dark flames within themselves, they will project their darkness onto others, and any perceived undesirable aspects in others will be viewed beyond mere annoyances and things to accept / work with, but things that need to be destroyed so that they can remake the other person but only in their image and on their terms. When that fails due to the other person's unwillingness, Mars-Pluto people often hit a dead end and they fall even deeper into their emotional black hole. Sadly, most people never know how to handle

I've also read natal planet-Pluto can mean dark family secrets that have a significant influence on one's personality and life course. From your experience, is that true?

For those of you here who know people with a Mars-Pluto aspect, or if you have one yourself, what are your feelings and experiences with it? Do you feel it's something that can potentially make someone, or yourself, very volatile?


it.
I have mars, pluto and uranus conjunct in virgo. Yes I feel like kill people who are lazy, incompetent, manipulative or beligerent. With my lovers and friends I can only respect people stronger than me. That strength comes in many forms - it can be emotional, intellectual, energetic, principled, etc, but they must believe in themselves. I’m not a cruel person but if you put your **** on me, OMG be prepared for a nuclear explosion! I wish I wasn’t this way - my life would be so much easier. But, if you are my friend, husband, partner, family, and anything bad happens to you… I am going to make sure you are saved, brought back from the brink. By hook or by crook. We mars plutos are not so bad. If you can bare a bit of scorching we will be loyal to you for a lifetime and beyond.
 

Seçil

New member
A pattern I've noticed is I tend to be wary and sort of repulsed by people who have multiple aspects between their natal planets and Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto, or when at least one of the 3 outer planets aspects their ascendant or falls in an angular house. It's like they possess a kind of energy I can't understand or harness.

One of my least favorite aspects in someone else's natal chart, and one I've noticed in the charts of a few people I deem to be crazy / unstable in some way, is a connection between Mars and Pluto. This is adding to the list that contains aspects such as Sun / Moon-Uranus, Sun / Moon-Neptune, and Mercury-Uranus / Neptune. While those aspects can make someone very unusual / eccentric, whether they're smooth or challenging, I noticed this aspect has the potential to make someone extremely dangerous and volatile unless there are key mitigating factors and / or if the Mars-Pluto have enough distance between each other.

I've read it's one of the aspects most commonly found in the charts of career criminals including some of the most infamous serial killers in modern times. Mars-Pluto represents the convergence of two potentially malefic energies, one that I feel many people do not know how to channel. Mars alone is impulsive, driven, and combative, but Pluto adds darkness, secrecy, lust for power and control, and the desire to destroy / transform with an almost inhuman strength and a ruthless desire to survive and get by at all costs. A very dangerous combination indeed.

Now you may wonder, does a Mars-Pluto connection simply point to a Scorpio-like energy? I think while it does highlight many of Scorpio's negative traits, it's a more raw and darker expression of that energy compared to someone who's simply a Scorpio. Regardless of someone's sun sign, it seems like this aspect gives them a side to their personality that's Machiavellian at the least, and utterly manipulative and destructive at most.

Mars-Pluto gives someone a raging fire deep within their souls and psyches. A need to transform both their inner landscape and the world around them into both a metaphorical and literal battlefield of some sort. It's like these people find it almost impossible to truly be at peace with either themselves or others, because Pluto means regeneration and transformation. They may show you glimpses of their anger through outbursts and heated words, but you're only scratching their surface. I highly doubt these people will reveal the full extent, or even a large extent of their true feelings. You can never quite figure them out as they both consciously and subconsciously feel the need to maintain a degree of separation from everyone.

Intimate relationships with these people can be very challenging, because they give off a kind of energy that makes you never quite able to feel at ease with them, yet when you try to close the distance and really try to understand them they fight back and shut themselves. I think this is especially the case if they also have prominent Uranus / Neptune. You feel like you can never really get to know them. They tend to be domineering and manipulative, never at peace with themselves, and feel a need to control and change people around them into people they're not. When people resist, they feel a deep sense of resentment that has the potential to drive them into taking extreme actions. To have Mars-Pluto and to feel at ease with yourself and with others are inherently contradictory states of being, unless there are several mitigating factors or unless the individual possesses an extremely high degree of self-awareness.

Mars-Pluto fuses an infantile force with one that's dark and scheming. As a Cancer, I feel as if my nurturing sensitivity can't tame the beast in these people, because they'll feel something's missing in their lives if they can't fight, if they can't control, if they can't transform. If I get too close to them, their flames of darkness will repel me. If I get too close to these people, sometimes I feel their energy also affects me negatively. The fighter / killer instinct in them also rouses mine in a strange way that makes me want to kill them because I also start to feel a kind of seething rage towards them. It's like I consider them trash that the world would be better off without.

These people have such a strong survival instinct even in the face of seemingly insurmountable crises. They'll do just about anything to survive, to get by. They also have a frightening ability to control themselves and suppress emotions, yet it's all to conceal the dark, raging fire underneath. They seem to never show any fear, and may even welcome situations (consciously and / or subconsciously) that bring others lots of fear and uneasiness. They'll never quite be happy with themselves or the people in close relationships with them unless they're mature and self-aware to the point where they can channel these two energies effectively and efficiently.

Someone I know with Mars-Pluto in opposition (less than 2 degrees apart) treats people with a utilitarian attitude, though she'll rarely admit it. Her 'me, me, me' (Mars) combined with Pluto's desire to control, manipulate, and destroy gives her great difficulty in all of her relationships, but at the same time people can never quite figure her out because she maintains emotional distance from everyone in her life. She went through a troubled marriage and divorce and deeply resents her ex-husband even after almost 20 years, but still keeps him on social media and refuses to delete him. I asked her why, and she said "you should always keep people around when they may be of use to you. Even if you hate them, you can just ignore them whenever you wish, but if they're of use to you in some way you must not outright cut ties with them." She also desires to see her ex-husband miserable, although she'll never admit it. If someone asked her she'll say "I wish the best for him." I have absolutely no clue how her ex-husband may still be "of use" to her considering the fact they've been divorced for so long and he has remarried, and I guess I'll never find out what she truly thinks and why she does the things the does on just about everything, and in my opinion, such people will be determined to take their secrets to the grave. She also has Mars in Pisces (28.59 degrees) in the 8th house.

Mars-Plüton insanlarının, bu enerjinin farkına varmak ve onu aşmak için çaba sarf etmedikçe, başkalarıyla her iki taraf için de sağlıklı ve verimli bir şekilde bağ kurmasının neredeyse imkansız olacağına inanıyorum. Kendileriyle, başkalarıyla ve genel olarak hayatla olan ilişkilerinin sürekli bir savaş ve gerilim halinde olması gerekmediğini anlamaları gerekiyor. Hem kendilerine hem de başkalarına fayda sağlayacak huzur ve dinginliği bulmak için, onlara her zaman bir şeylerin olması gerektiğini, onları ayakta tutan bir şeyin olması gerektiğini dikte eden "varsayılan" zihin/varlık durumlarını bırakmaları ve yola devam etmeleri gerekir. ayakları ve/veya zihinleri meşgul. Beklentileri açısından hem kendilerini hem de çevrelerini sürekli manipüle etme ve dönüştürme isteklerinin farkında olmaları gerekir. Uçucu enerjiyi, kendilerine veya başkalarına zarar vermeden etkili bir şekilde serbest bırakılmasına izin verecek bir şekilde kanalize edebilirlerse, o zaman bu en iyisi olacaktır. Kendileri ve başkaları için gerçekçi beklentiler belirlemeleri, barış ve istikrarın yalnızca eşit derecede geçerli varoluş yolları değil, aynı zamanda nihai olarak daha yüksek ve daha olumlu varoluş yolları olduğunu kabul etmeleri gerekir. Kendi içlerindeki bu karanlık alevleri söndürmeyi öğreninceye kadar, karanlıklarını başkalarına yansıtacaklar ve başkalarında algılanan istenmeyen yönler, salt rahatsızlıkların ve kabul edilmesi / üzerinde çalışılması gereken şeylerin ötesinde, yok edilmesi gereken şeylerin de ötesinde görülecektir. diğer kişiyi yeniden yaratabilir, ancak yalnızca onun imajında ve kendi şartlarına göre. Diğer kişinin isteksizliği nedeniyle bu başarısız olduğunda, Mars-Plüton insanı çoğu zaman çıkmaza girer ve duygusal kara deliğinin daha da derinlerine düşer. Ne yazık ki çoğu insan nasıl davranacağını asla bilmiyor

Ayrıca doğum gezegeni Plüton'un kişinin kişiliği ve yaşam akışı üzerinde önemli etkisi olan karanlık aile sırları anlamına gelebileceğini de okudum. Deneyimlerinize göre bu doğru mu?

Burada Mars-Plüton açısına sahip insanları tanıyanlar veya sizin de böyle bir açınız varsa, bununla ilgili duygularınız ve deneyimleriniz neler? Bunun birisini veya kendinizi çok dengesiz hale getirebilecek bir şey olduğunu düşünüyor musunuz?


BT.
Hello I have mars Pluto Triangle as ASC scorpio and sun pisces. Although there are difficulties in my life, I manage to transform them into positive energies through personal development and psychological teachings. However, to tell the truth, it is not easy to be strong and surrender to something or someone. The sexual abuses in early youth and even childhood, I carried with me for a long time and experienced the difficulties of myself and people. Then with healing and transformation, it made them stronger. I am an academically successful person and perhaps I have had a lot of training to prove the strength I have always been able to maintain. When I set a goal, I always achieve it.
I think that if the conditions of this triangle angle are channeled in good directions, the person can contribute to the world. Instead of what everyone sees or sees as a threat, there is no doubt that this angle is a gift, that it will contribute to both the person and those around them in this area towards the dreams they want to achieve or reach.
 
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GeminiSun

Well-known member
I have Mars in Leo 10th house Square Pluto in 1st house.

I've definitely had a few anger meltdowns in my life but I'm 30 now and learned how to control it.
 

Stormer

New member
I have many Pluto aspects, mars square Pluto and sun square Pluto and sun conjunct mars are my most prominent. I also have Neptune sextile Pluto. I also have an 8th house stellium of personal planets and hardly any water. Just a Pisces south node.
However it’s my moon square Saturn that is the hardest. Thank God for all my Plutonian energy or I’d be a heartbroken puddle 24/7. The Plutonian mars energy gives me strength and makes me indestructible. I can give into my emotion or I can follow my default system and not care.

That being said, I’ve done years of shadow work and have complex trauma which I’m now so grateful for because there was a period of time—before I began shadow work and changed my life entirely—where I was becoming a sociopath. That was the first half of my life, especially the last 8 years of that half. I had no remorse. No concern for anyone or anything. I didn’t like when people hurt animals or women. Other than that, I fantasized about becoming a vigilante. The punishments I concocted were straight out of hostile or saw before those movies came out. The spite and hatefulness I spewed when I was younger and the pain I caused is my greatest regret in life. It still keeps me up some nights. And yet, even though I’ve become one of the most sensitive, compassionate, caring, and nurturing people you’ll ever meet and have devoted my life to the healing profession, I took your entire post as an ego stroke. It was a compliment of the highest order. It was exhilarating to read. I feel so seen. And bc I feel seen, I couldn’t help but wonder, is real recognizing real here? For me, I know that I need to embrace my darkness and integrate it into my personality. Life is duality anyway and when I ignore it, that’s when it can creep up. By embracing it, I’m accepting it which accepts me so there’s less guilt and shame and hiding, making it easier to belong to myself and others and feeling. It’s ok to have an inner villain. I’d be more afraid if a person told me they didn’t have one. I still fantasize about doling out physical justice to the most vile and violent. I’m a natural defender and I’m grateful for that. I find beauty in my darkness. Embracing it is actually what has made it possible for me to be so nurturing because I experience the full spectrum. I know the pain of survival, what it takes to survive, the wrath, and the mark it leaves on the survivor from knowing what they had to do to survive and the labels society forces upon them.

I’ve never felt unstable. I’ve always been extremely analytical and when I started having feelings, I’d make decisions mostly based in logic and partly on what I wanted emotionally. Now i use my intuition and go by how I feel and I make decisions based on sensory information and then analyze that to make sure that it all aligns. Though I do have a Gemini moon 1h, but that makes me more social butterfly and gregarious and funny.

I had a couple friends that were also emotionally detached. When an acquaintance cried in front of me, I couldn’t understand how they had feelings like that. I had a hard time believing anyone had genuine feelings bc I didn’t. When men told me they loved me, I didn’t believe it and didn’t let them in bc they only loved my sense of power and they liked the novelty of a girl that didn’t fawn over them. I didn’t date bc I thought intimacy like that was pointless and stupid. I’ve always been charismatic and had people that fawned over me because my ‘you can’t hurt me. I don’t care’ vibe was genuine.

Now, I cry at beautiful moments and music and Budweiser Clydesdale commercials and the poem wild geese by Mary Oliver.
Also I’ve become open with all my feelings—even the dark, scary ones. And you know what’s wild to me? Those are the ones people resonate with the most and I’m able to connect with most people on an authentic level—at least on my end and it feels genuine.
 
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