What is meaning of 12th house ruler conjunct Sun?

SCP11

Well-known member
My 12th house is Libra

In my 5th house of Pisces, i have Sun conjunct Venus

I'm interested to know what it means when a 12th house ruler is conjunct the Sun, i'm guessing this plays an important influence in my personality, i didn't really consider this point about my natal before

Does anyone know what it could relate to?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
My 12th house is Libra
In my 5th house of Pisces, i have Sun conjunct Venus
I'm interested to know what it means when a 12th house ruler is conjunct the Sun,
i'm guessing this plays an important influence in my personality, i didn't really consider this point about my natal before
Does anyone know what it could relate to?
You have posted your thread on our Traditional board
so presumably you are a guest modernist astrologer
interested to learn traditional :smile:
If you are interested to learn traditional
then a chart to view would be useful
 

GemwDepth

Account Closed
I would actually go the opposite route in logical deduction.

Your Venus rules the 12th (and also the Taurus house). It's condition will directly influence circumstances of those houses within your life.

If conjunct, it will depend on if it's combust to the Sun. Most of the time it will be combust. The degrees differ, and I do not know of any realm that has conclusive agreement on combustion. Personally, I use 6 degrees for Mercury, Venus and Mars, based purely on anecdotal experience. But I have no theoretical research or citations to back it up.

Now let's assume Venus and Sun are combust, I would then look at the sign of Venus. If in Taurus or Pisces, Venus secretly rules the Sun behind the scenes and holds tremendous power. The Venusian drives and attractions are there, just behind the scenes, seemingly eclipsed by solar aims, but is actually the queen that rules it. There is no negative effect there, just a matter of internal drives vs. outward decoration, what is seen and not seen.

If Venus and Sun are combust within 18', its a rare situation called cazimi. I haven't personally researched the effect of this to know if the actual effects reflect the reputation. The general reputation is that of huge popularity, attractiveness and effectiveness. At the current point in time, I would put this as a situation similar to the above, but with Venus powers x 10.

Now if Venus is combust, not in the signs of Taurus or Pisces, and not cazimi, then Venusian aims are sacrificed for solar aims of ego, pride and identity. This will frequently pits forth situations in life where one has to choose between two choices: Solar aims (ego, pride, career, etc., or the houses ruled by them) and Venusian aims (or the houses ruled by them). Solar aims are chosen and Venusian ones suffer, or are thereby sacrificed.

However nothing is ever that simple. If Venus is unfortunately combust to the Sun, I would then look at a variety of mitigating aspects. Say Venus in Gemini, trine its ruler Mercury in Aquarius, and many subtle variations there forth, etc. Venus may be overshadowed by the Sun, but its energy may still be channeled harmoniously elsewhere.

I just saw that you did mention your Venus is in Pisces.

Now this brings us to the fourth situation where your Venus may not be combust to the Sun (not within generally 6 degrees). In this case, the pitting of the two decisions (with Venus losing out) is avoided and the surface, over shadowing of solar aims over Venus, are also avoided. In this situation, the condition of Venus and Sun would be taken as one, a set of two partners working together jointly. Wherever one goes, the other, by conjunction also goes. For better or for ill, as other aspects and placements to this paired conjunction needs to be evaluated. Your 12th house, and the Taurus house, will be imbrued with solar energy! In general, since Venus is stronger in Pisces, Venus helps the Sun out with love, attractiveness and other characteristics, but no partner within this pair 'harms' the other.

I hope that helps.
.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I would actually go the opposite route in logical deduction.

Your Venus rules the 12th (and also the Taurus house). It's condition will directly influence circumstances of those houses within your life.

If conjunct, it will depend on if it's combust to the Sun. Most of the time it will be combust. The degrees differ, and I do not know of any realm that has conclusive agreement on combustion. Personally, I use 6 degrees for Mercury, Venus and Mars, based purely on anecdotal experience. But I have no theoretical research or citations to back it up.

Now let's assume Venus and Sun are combust, I would then look at the sign of Venus. If in Taurus or Pisces, Venus secretly rules the Sun behind the scenes and holds tremendous power. The Venusian drives and attractions are there, just behind the scenes, seemingly eclipsed by solar aims, but is actually the queen that rules it. There is no negative effect there, just a matter of internal drives vs. outward decoration, what is seen and not seen.

If Venus and Sun are combust within 18', its a rare situation called cazimi. I haven't personally researched the effect of this to know if the actual effects reflect the reputation. The general reputation is that of huge popularity, attractiveness and effectiveness. At the current point in time, I would put this as a situation similar to the above, but with Venus powers x 10.

Now if Venus is combust, not in the signs of Taurus or Pisces, and not cazimi, then Venusian aims are sacrificed for solar aims of ego, pride and identity. This will frequently pits forth situations in life where one has to choose between two choices: Solar aims (ego, pride, career, etc., or the houses ruled by them) and Venusian aims (or the houses ruled by them). Solar aims are chosen and Venusian ones suffer, or are thereby sacrificed.

However nothing is ever that simple. If Venus is unfortunately combust to the Sun, I would then look at a variety of mitigating aspects. Say Venus in Gemini, trine its ruler Mercury in Aquarius, and many subtle variations there forth, etc. Venus may be overshadowed by the Sun, but its energy may still be channeled harmoniously elsewhere.

I just saw that you did mention your Venus is in Pisces.

Now this brings us to the fourth situation where your Venus may not be combust to the Sun (not within generally 6 degrees). In this case, the pitting of the two decisions (with Venus losing out) is avoided and the surface, over shadowing of solar aims over Venus, are also avoided. In this situation, the condition of Venus and Sun would be taken as one, a set of two partners working together jointly. Wherever one goes, the other, by conjunction also goes. For better or for ill, as other aspects and placements to this paired conjunction needs to be evaluated. Your 12th house, and the Taurus house, will be imbrued with solar energy! In general, since Venus is stronger in Pisces, Venus helps the Sun out with love, attractiveness and other characteristics, but no partner within this pair 'harms' the other.

I hope that helps.
.
much of the quoted response is not strictly traditional
but is diluted with modernist perspectives - that is not surprising
given the poster is a modernist astrologer
My 12th house is Libra
assuming time of birth is reliable :smile:
then Venus rules 12th
and since you posted your thread on our traditional board
then the traditional Main Rulerships of 12th are as follows:

12th house represents matters that are hidden, restrained, secret,

incapable of action or of being fully understood.

Traditionally, 12th is a wholly unfortunate house
associated with sad events, sorrow, anguish of mind, tribulation, captivity
imprisonment, persecution, hard labour, all manner of affliction and self-undoing.

Traditionally, 12th represents places that are denied access to public view
particularly those concerned with seclusion or isolation
or where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style
such as institutions or prisons.

Many sources attribute monasteries to the 12th house as places of isolation
but otherwise monks and nuns belong to the 9th house
which represents religious concerns.

Traditionally, 12th house has rulership over scandals generally,
personal fears and skeletons in the family closet.

Traditionally, 12th significations include secret, unknown enemies,
such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours or inform secretly against them:
traitors, spies
malicious hauntings; weakness, infirmity and bondage.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h12.html
 

GemwDepth

Account Closed
@OP

Did you intend to post this question in the Trad board?

And for the record, I am NOT a Modern Astrologer. As Dr. Farr says, an Eclectic. :smile: One who reads Vettius Valens, Ptolemy Tetrabiblos, as well as Hand, Tyl or Rudhyar.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
@OP

Did you intend to post this question in the Trad board?
Quite - I earlier highlighted that issue as follows
You have posted your thread on our Traditional board
so presumably you are a guest modernist astrologer
interested to learn traditional :smile:
If you are interested to learn traditional
then a chart to view would be useful
but the OP has chosen to NOT clarify

whether their intention is to seek a traditional perspective
or not
and so

at this stage it is important to remind the OP that
according to forum rules
i.e.
Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas
should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.

and also

sticky ***Please Read Before Posting On This Board***
If you genuinely want to learn about traditional astrology,

and will keep your posts on this board strictly traditional, welcome... go ahead and post!
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120411
And for the record, I am NOT a Modern Astrologer.
As Dr. Farr says, an Eclectic. :smile:
One who reads Vettius Valens, Ptolemy Tetrabiblos, as well as
Hand, Tyl or Rudhyar.
not strictly traditional then - thanks for the clarification
 

SCP11

Well-known member
Hi thanks for your replies

I look at Hellenistic astrology more than modern

I am aware that the 12th house is associated with 'self-undoing' etc as the hellenistic astrologers look at how houses are viewed from the ascendent house, which is completely out of view, and something about primary and secondary motions shows how the 12th house has slipped away from the position of the 11th

I'm wondering what it means though if its ruler is conjunct the Sun

Does it mean the ego motivations connect strongly somehow to 12th house (and even Taurus my 7th house) matters?

I find the 12th more interesting because it's a bit more weird to think about it being closely linked to the personality, especially since 12th house is usually seen as what is hidden... maybe it would also have a similar effect to the Sun being in the 12th house?

Maybe i'm self-sabotaging in some way, or deeply interested in uncovering my own motivations, although i feel like everyone has these qualities, it may just be a question of the 'how'

My venus is combust i believe, it's about 4 degrees from the Sun
(My progressed venus is cazimi, it's 1 degree away)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Hi thanks for your replies
I look at Hellenistic astrology more than modern
so then
since on this thread
you seem to seek modernist astrological interpretation AS WELL AS Hellenistic :smile:
would be useful if you would confirm then
that this is a mixed discussion thread
and as such
is more appropriately placed on one of our general boards
I am aware that the 12th house is associated with 'self-undoing' etc as the hellenistic astrologers look at how houses are viewed from the ascendent house, which is completely out of view, and something about primary and secondary motions shows how the 12th house has slipped away from the position of the 11th
I'm wondering what it means though if its ruler is conjunct the Sun
Does it mean the ego motivations connect strongly somehow to 12th house (and even Taurus my 7th house) matters?
I find the 12th more interesting because it's a bit more weird to think about it being closely linked to the personality, especially since 12th house is usually seen as what is hidden... maybe it would also have a similar effect to the Sun being in the 12th house?
Maybe i'm self-sabotaging in some way, or deeply interested in uncovering my own motivations, although i feel like everyone has these qualities, it may just be a question of the 'how'
My venus is combust i believe, it's about 4 degrees from the Sun
(My progressed venus is cazimi, it's 1 degree away)
a chart to view would be most helpful
 

SCP11

Well-known member
I meant in general i've looked at modern and hellenistic
But for this discussion i'd only like traditional that's why i posted here


Thanks!
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I meant in general i've looked at modern and hellenistic
But for this discussion i'd only like traditional that's why i posted here
Thanks!
thanks for clarifying - saves misunderstandings :smile:
often members do not check which board a thread is posted on
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I meant in general i've looked at modern and hellenistic


But for this discussion i'd only like traditional


that's why i posted here
Thanks!
Traditionally then,
VENUS rules TAURUS as well as LIBRA :smile:
and so
VENUS rules BOTH your 12th AND your 7th houses

significations of 7th house are as follows:
Main Rulerships: Marriage and all forms of partnerships.
The spouse, lover.
Business partnerships and the legal contracts that pertain to them.
Watters notes that affliction of the 7th represents:
"an open rupture in a partnership or marriage" ([JoE], p.65).

All enemies that are known

as such belong to 7th house
(the 12th house warns of secret enemies
but as soon as their existence is known
they are represented through the 7th house).
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
My 12th house is Libra
traditional significations of Libra :smile:
Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part I - Zodiac
The zodiac completes a sidereal cycle in 23.93446 hours.

The image of the Scales is masculine, diurnal, changeable, human,
truthful, economical, judicial, common, eloquent, semi-fertile,
handsome, sitting and of the east wind.
It indicates disputes, affairs, crafts, trade and changes.
Depending on the placement of the houseruler,
men born under the influence of Libra are well-proportioned and graceful,
notable, noble, supervisors, artisans,
encountering many vicissitudes because of the tipping of the Scales,
covetous, average, youthful, with fine face, fine figure, beautiful eyes, poetical,
thick lips, beautiful hair, white, merchants, judges, lawyers,
supervisors of crops, vineyards, olive groves, aromatics, homesteads,
measures, posts, crafts and grain supplies.
Domicile of Venus, exaltation of Saturn, depression of Sun,
it controls the hips and the buttocks, the olfactory system, the reproductive organs
and the secondary sex characteristics.
It is like-empowered with Aquarius, like-ascending with Cancer
and like-engirding with Taurus, tall in the Northern Hemisphere
and short in the Southern Hemisphere.
It is autumnal, cold and dry for the north, and vernal, hot and moist for the south.

Libra obeys Leo for the north and commands it for the south.
Libra controls Bactriana, Casperia, Serica, Thebais, Oasis and Troglodytia.
The hand and the handle are rising up to the 6th degree,
the balance beam up to the 14th,
the chains and Alpha Librae up to the 21st,
the weighing pans up to the 28th, and the base up to the 30th.

The first 6° belong to Saturn - destructive, grief from loved ones, reductions of wealth
The next 8° belong to Mercury - versatile, fertile
The next 7° belong to Jupiter - allotments, inheritances, gifts of land
The next 7° belong to Venus - good fortune, kind, musical, clean
The final 2° belong to Mars - strength, leadership, abundance
Extremities - Jupiter and Mercury
Middle - Saturn and moderately Mars

Such, then, are the observations of the effects of the stars
as made by our predecessors.
Let us now proceed with the seven-zone.

Bibliography:
Ludwich, A. (Ed.). (1877). Maximi et Ammonis carminum De actionum auspiciis reliquiae:
accedunt Anecdota astrologica. BG Teubneri. Retrieved from https://archive.org/details/maximietammonisc00ludw/page/n3
Manilius, & Goold, G. P. (1985).
Astronomica. BG Teubner.
Robbins, F. E. (1940).
Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html
Schmidt, R. The Astrological Record of the Early Greek Sages.
Project Hindsight.
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley.
Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
 
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