False hope?

scahm · Oct 1, 2021

Previous charts I've cast showed my most recent ex coming back to me to reconcile and showed that he did in fact still have feelings for me - the break up happened because he didn't feel good enough in himself to continue the relationship and formally commit, which horary charts at the time even confirmed. We haven't had any contact other than the both of us occasionally watching each other's instagram stories but he's otherwise muted me to even avoid me on social media.

We only broke up three months ago and he's seemed to have posted a photo with a girl I assume he's now dating - my question for the chart was 'does he care for me?' but I wonder whether the chart confirms if he's actually with her or not. He's combust Sun, ruler of his 5th house, in the 7th house of partnership but they're both in mutual negative reception to each other. Would he really be dating someone he didn't like?

Alternatively, do we consider the Sun as his co-sig, signifying his ego? As the question is about his feelings for me, he's in my domicile and term, with the trine from Ceres confirming him caring for me. Him potentially flaunting a rebound seems really callous to me however and I don't know if I'm living in false hope waiting for him to come back - me in my fall confirms how my head is in a spin over all of this.

Am I deluding myself in thinking this person has feelings for me or has he really moved on?

To note - POF shows up in charts as a default setting for me on astro.com, but I wonder if there's any relevance to it in this chart as it's in an exact sextile to him?

IleneK · Oct 1, 2021

scahm said:
.

We only broke up three months ago and he's seemed to have posted a photo with a girl I assume he's now dating - my question for the chart was 'does he care for me?' but I wonder whether the chart confirms if he's actually with her or not. He's combust Sun, ruler of his 5th house, in the 7th house of partnership but they're both in mutual negative reception to each other. Would he really be dating someone he didn't like?

Things are pretty challenging for him, in his detriment and combust the Sun. But he is still very interested in her/Venus, right square in her/1st house. And they are in mutual *positive* reception, not negative. So still very connected.
Each sig is in its detriment, so maybe that is what you are referring to as negative. This suggests that they are both having a hard time within themselves, but not with each other.

scahm · Oct 1, 2021

IleneK said:
Things are pretty challenging for him, in his detriment and combust the Sun. But he is still very interested in her/Venus, right square in her/1st house. And they are in mutual *positive* reception, not negative. So still very connected.
Each sig is in its detriment, so maybe that is what you are referring to as negative. This suggests that they are both having a hard time within themselves, but not with each other.

Thanks so much for taking the time to comment Ilene. I took myself to be Venus in this chart and the other girl as the Sun, as my specific question was 'does he care for me still?' - does that change the interpretation?

IleneK · Oct 1, 2021

scahm said:
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment Ilene. I took myself to be Venus in this chart and the other girl as the Sun, as my specific question was 'does he care for me still?' - does that change the interpretation?

You are welcome. And now I understand your saying mutual adverse reception.

Following your inquiries over time on this subject, the thrust of this question here to me to still revolves around his being with someone else and if he is still happy with her. You even pivot in your thought process to bring their relationship into the question. So at this point, as the astrologer, I see her as the 7th from him. If you are wondering if he might still hold interest in you, I would see you as the 5th from him now.

So the delineation doesn't change in my mind. But please know it is only in my mind

and not necessarily the truth or correct; just how I see and feel it.

Time, of course, will tell.

scahm · Oct 1, 2021

IleneK said:
You are welcome. And now I understand your saying mutual adverse reception.

Following your inquiries over time on this subject, the thrust of this question here to me to still revolves around his being with someone else and if he is still happy with her. You even pivot in your thought process to bring their relationship into the question. So at this point, as the astrologer, I see her as the 7th from him. If you are wondering if he might still hold interest in you, I would see you as the 5th from him now.

So the delineation doesn't change in my mind. But please know it is only in my mind

and not necessarily the truth or correct; just how I see and feel it.

Time, of course, will tell.

Thank you Ilene, that makes sense. I'm unsure if they are even dating in the first place however, she could very well just be a friend so I guess in relation to the other girl, the question is more so whether he is actually with someone else or specifically 'is he dating her?'. He has posted photos of him with other girls I assumed he was dating, but they turned out to just be friends.

I don't know whether this line of thinking is more so a result of my own struggles with the ending of our relationship though. We were falling in love and then he abruptly pulled away and broke it off, so to see him posting photos with other girls so soon feels like a huge sucker punch to the gut, especially as he was lurking my social media just a couple of days ago.

IleneK · Oct 1, 2021

You are so lucky to be rid of him, painful as this is, given his behavior as you have described here. It is hard to let go of our attachments, but way more painful to cling to them.

My heart goes out to you in this difficult time, dear scahm.

scahm · Oct 1, 2021

Thank you so much for your kind words, Ilene. My rational mind knows his behaviour was despicable and that he isn't right for a relationship but it's so hard to let go of the unseen potential - he didn't even give me a chance to communicate how I felt for him, nor did he have the courage to break up with me in person. I feel terrible!

IleneK · Oct 1, 2021

Unseen potential means it could very well not be there. This conduct does not point to much potential necessary for a supportive and kind relationship which is the very foundation of all the rest we might hope for with another.
You will feel so much better when you feel ready and let go. And it will open the field of possibility for what you do seek.

scahm · Oct 1, 2021

IleneK said:
Unseen potential means it could very well not be there. This conduct does not point to much potential necessary for a supportive and kind relationship which is the very foundation of all the rest we might hope for with another.
You will feel so much better when you feel ready and let go. And it will open the field of possibility for what you do seek.

Thank you so much for your kind words, they’ve brought me a lot of comfort.

ElenaJ · Oct 1, 2021

First off, read all of Ilene's comments thoroughly, she is right on both the chart and with her general advice.
You never mentioned how long you and he were a couple. One thing is a long term relationship, another is a two month one.
Regarding the chart, apparently the main question is how he feels about you.
Because in reality, whether or not he is with someone else at the moment, if he does care and does want to be with you, then he will.
So, looking at the chart, we see Aries on the 7th cusp, so mars is his significator.
And mars is weak by sign but strong by house (Aries is natural ruler of the ascendent).
In the 7th is also Chiron the wounded healer. And it is exactly opposing mars. From the 7th to the 1st.
So we see someone who likes you, yes, but is not in a good position and is suffering through the relationship.
Libra is the sign of marriage and coupling, and mars is about anything but this!
So we have someone who is not feeling very comfortable about his feelings, and does not fit well in a relationship.
Mars sextiles POF in the 3rd of communications. So he feels more at ease on social and chatting, than in person.
He even co-rules the 3rd house. That is his realm.
And POF from the 3rd is in exact easy aspect with Chiron and mars, so able to lessen the discomfort.
Plus you as ascendent are Venus, also not strongly placed by sign, separating from the romantic trine with illusive Neptune in his 12th of hidden motives, love blinded, and then the harsh square from exaggerating Jupiter in the 5th who got your hopes up recklessly. But Jupiter is still co-ruler of his 12th.
Jupiter is also ruler of sagittarius, intercepted in the 3rd of chatting, but it can't express itself because of the interception. It has no "doorway" out of the 3rd.
And now finally Venus gets back on track, but sextile with pluto, co-ruler of the 3rd!
So, back to analysing him, his 3rd of communications is ruled by Venus, which we saw is weak by sign, and is also opposing his communication by sitting by the cusp of his 9th.
And in his 3rd (the 9th of the chart) we see comunicative gemini, ruled by mercury, intercepted. So here again, no possibility of expressing itself. And where is mercury?
With you in the 1st, but square co-ruler of your 3rd, pluto.
So we have a picture here of discomfort, and lack of communication, actually on both parts.
Sun on ascendent rules the 11th of friendship. So this gives a key to what could be a basis for a relationship... friendship, although a little timidly because sun is weak by sign and not showing itself strongly.
This is confirmed if we look at the ruler of the 5th of love affairs, ruled by Saturn. Here we see a planet finally strong by sign, although we don't usually connect Saturn with love, do we? It's a bit cold.
And the answer lies in the moon. In the sign of the ego, it approaches an opposition to Saturn, who also rules the 4th of endings.
So in spite of the two significators, Venus and mars, being in mutual reception by sign, so internally caring for each other, there is a lack of communication, and the difficulties bring about the end of love, with a hint of possibly friendship in the future.
This last hint comes from the approaching sextile of moon to mars, the quesited. But this will take time, there is a span of 8 degrees, probably months, before this can happen.
You don't insert the South node in your charts. It falls in the 3rd! So the theme continues to be the same of communications blocked, with the nodes in both houses of communications and the intercepted signs.
So we are left with you, Venus, coming to grips with the situation, by sextile with pluto in the house of endings. And with the 3rd strongly involved, your way of thinking will evolve in a positive way.
While he is trying to heal, with difficulty, by the opposition of Chiron.
He is helped by the trine to Ceres, who at this point couldn't be anywhere else but his 3rd! Learning to be kinder, more generous and caring.
So you see, a potential other person in the picture, whether a girlfriend for him or a new bf for you, doesn't really matter.
The problem between you two is a different one.
Let's not forget that not all relationships are meant to last a lifetime.
Some do, some last the flickering of a butterfly.
The important thing is to learn from each one, take its value, and incorporate it within ourselves.
Release the negative, cherish the positive.

scahm · Oct 1, 2021

ElenaJ said:
First off, read all of Ilene's comments thoroughly, she is right on both the chart and with her general advice.
You never mentioned how long you and he were a couple. One thing is a long term relationship, another is a two month one.
Regarding the chart, apparently the main question is how he feels about you.
Because in reality, whether or not he is with someone else at the moment, if he does care and does want to be with you, then he will.
So, looking at the chart, we see Aries on the 7th cusp, so mars is his significator.
And mars is weak by sign but strong by house (Aries is natural ruler of the ascendent).
In the 7th is also Chiron the wounded healer. And it is exactly opposing mars. From the 7th to the 1st.
So we see someone who likes you, yes, but is not in a good position and is suffering through the relationship.
Libra is the sign of marriage and coupling, and mars is about anything but this!
So we have someone who is not feeling very comfortable about his feelings, and does not fit well in a relationship.
Mars sextiles POF in the 3rd of communications. So he feels more at ease on social and chatting, than in person.
He even co-rules the 3rd house. That is his realm.
And POF from the 3rd is in exact easy aspect with Chiron and mars, so able to lessen the discomfort.
Plus you as ascendent are Venus, also not strongly placed by sign, separating from the romantic trine with illusive Neptune in his 12th of hidden motives, love blinded, and then the harsh square from exaggerating Jupiter in the 5th who got your hopes up recklessly. But Jupiter is still co-ruler of his 12th.
Jupiter is also ruler of sagittarius, intercepted in the 3rd of chatting, but it can't express itself because of the interception. It has no "doorway" out of the 3rd.
And now finally Venus gets back on track, but sextile with pluto, co-ruler of the 3rd!
So, back to analysing him, his 3rd of communications is ruled by Venus, which we saw is weak by sign, and is also opposing his communication by sitting by the cusp of his 9th.
And in his 3rd (the 9th of the chart) we see comunicative gemini, ruled by mercury, intercepted. So here again, no possibility of expressing itself. And where is mercury?
With you in the 1st, but square co-ruler of your 3rd, pluto.
So we have a picture here of discomfort, and lack of communication, actually on both parts.
Sun on ascendent rules the 11th of friendship. So this gives a key to what could be a basis for a relationship... friendship, although a little timidly because sun is weak by sign and not showing itself strongly.
This is confirmed if we look at the ruler of the 5th of love affairs, ruled by Saturn. Here we see a planet finally strong by sign, although we don't usually connect Saturn with love, do we? It's a bit cold.
And the answer lies in the moon. In the sign of the ego, it approaches an opposition to Saturn, who also rules the 4th of endings.
So in spite of the two significators, Venus and mars, being in mutual reception by sign, so internally caring for each other, there is a lack of communication, and the difficulties bring about the end of love, with a hint of possibly friendship in the future.
This last hint comes from the approaching sextile of moon to mars, the quesited. But this will take time, there is a span of 8 degrees, probably months, before this can happen.
You don't insert the South node in your charts. It falls in the 3rd! So the theme continues to be the same of communications blocked, with the nodes in both houses of communications and the intercepted signs.
So we are left with you, Venus, coming to grips with the situation, by sextile with pluto in the house of endings. And with the 3rd strongly involved, your way of thinking will evolve in a positive way.
While he is trying to heal, with difficulty, by the opposition of Chiron.
He is helped by the trine to Ceres, who at this point couldn't be anywhere else but his 3rd! Learning to be kinder, more generous and caring.
So you see, a potential other person in the picture, whether a girlfriend for him or a new bf for you, doesn't really matter.
The problem between you two is a different one.
Let's not forget that not all relationships are meant to last a lifetime.
Some do, some last the flickering of a butterfly.
The important thing is to learn from each one, take its value, and incorporate it within ourselves.
Release the negative, cherish the positive.

Firstly, my deepest gratitude to you for taking the time to write such a detailed analysis - I say this repeatedly Elena, but you have no idea how much comfort (and learning!) it brings. Thank you so much.

We were together for six months, so really in the stages of getting more serious and settled before he abruptly ended things out of fear it wouldn't work out in the long term. It is so fascinating how you have painted the picture of our relationship so accurately - I knew he was starting to fall in love with me and the fear of being hurt caused him to end it as horrifically as he did. Your response is particularly comforting because it confirms his emotional unavailability - I suppose it shows that he is currently incapable of being with anyone in a relationship right?

The lack of communication frustrates me the most because I have every desire to reach out and speak to him, but it feels like it would be disrespectful to myself to make the first move after what he did. There is a temptation to be the bigger person and reach out regardless, but I'm worried it'll just hurt my feelings instead, especially if there's a possibility he's seeing someone else. I'm glad the chart confirms that he wishes he could speak to me too though.

Horary can really be so astounding - "Moon in the sign of ego, opposes the Saturn the 4th of endings" - so really, it is our egos which killed off our love? Gosh, how tragic.

scahm · Oct 9, 2021

I wanted to provide an update to this thread - Ilene, I guess your reading was right. I've just seen that he has gone away to Italy and whilst he hasn't directly posted her, he's put up some suggestive posts to allude to being with another girl.

I'm frankly stunned as it hasn't even been three months since he unceremoniously ended our own relationship - within that time, he found someone else and got serious enough to start going away with her (on a trip that he had once stated he wanted to go on with me). Bizarrely, he continues to occasionally stalk my social media profile, I guess in the hopes that it would inspire me to do the same and see that he's with someone else.

IleneK · Oct 9, 2021

scahm said:
I wanted to provide an update to this thread - Ilene, I guess your reading was right. I've just seen that he has gone away to Italy and whilst he hasn't directly posted her, he's put up some suggestive posts to allude to being with another girl.

<...>, he continues to occasionally stalk my social media profile, I guess in the hopes that it would inspire me to do the same and see that he's with someone else.

Thank you for the update.

You know, it may very well be something so simple as he just wants to see what you are up to. No more, no less. Not nearly so complicated as you you are suggesting...
There is both comfort and wisdom when we make room for possibilities beyond what we imagine. May you soon come to know that comfort.

scahm · Oct 14, 2021

Apologies for revisiting this thread but I have a question specifically for Elena - is there anything in this chart that suggests that my ex may have had an issue with my race or ethnicity and thus why he ended the relationship?

I mentioned this in a previous thread but he had extremely traditional views and had once stated that it was human nature to go for people of your community/ethnicity and that interracial relationships are rare.

I'm aware that my answer is in that statement itself, but he was incapable of ever really giving me a reason for the abrupt ending and I have always wondered whether he was never really serious about me in the first place because he always knew that he would never marry a woman of a different background.

ElenaJ · Oct 14, 2021

Pluto is the planet that refers to race.
In the chart you posted it is in the 4th of endings/family/roots, and mercury, ruler of the 12th of hidden issues and of the intercepted 9th of philosophy and intellectual values, squares pluto by retrograde.
Mercury is in the ascendent near the cusp of the 2nd of values.
POF in the 3rd of thinking, and gossip, is exactly at the midpoint between mercury and pluto.
Note also the 4th and 10th houses, both of your family ties and traditions, are moon approaching an opposition to Saturn, enforced by the fact that both of them are in these houses, although not in the sign on the cusps, so hidden from sight.
Scham you may have put your finger on something here.
Keep in mind that Chiron is in the 7th opposing 7th ruler, mars, who is in your house.
This situation is causing him pain.

IleneK · Oct 14, 2021

ElenaJ said:
Pluto is the planet that refers to race.
In the chart you posted it is in the 4th of endings/family/roots, and mercury, ruler of the 12th of hidden issues and of the intercepted 9th of philosophy and intellectual values, squares pluto by retrograde.
Mercury is in the ascendent near the cusp of the 2nd of values.
POF in the 3rd of thinking, and gossip, is exactly at the midpoint between mercury and pluto.
Note also the 4th and 10th houses, both of your family ties and traditions, are moon approaching an opposition to Saturn, enforced by the fact that both of them are in these houses, although not in the sign on the cusps, so hidden from sight.
Scham you may have put your finger on something here.
Keep in mind that Chiron is in the 7th opposing 7th ruler, mars, who is in your house.
This situation is causing him pain.

Your delineations are so interesting, Elena. Thank you.

May I ask you to share what you [or your sources] see as the qualities or of Pluto which would lead us to see it as symbolizing race?
I find this very intriguing and would like to see a bit more deeply into its underpinnings, if you happen to know?

ElenaJ · Oct 15, 2021

Ilene, I myself looked for my source before posting, but haven't put my finger on it yet.
I've known this for years, it came up in studies for mixed race couples and marriages.
It has to do with the qualities of Pluto.
I intend to look again in my library to find the references, and will surely let you know what I come up with.

katydid · Oct 15, 2021

ElenaJ said:
Ilene, I myself looked for my source before posting, but haven't put my finger on it yet.
I've known this for years, it came up in studies for mixed race couples and marriages.
It has to do with the qualities of Pluto.
I intend to look again in my library to find the references, and will surely let you know what I come up with.

Here is an interesting article about Pluto and racial identity:
https://theastrologyplacemembership.com/2011/04/plutos-shadow-and-the-black-man/

I once wrote somewhere on this blog about Liz Greene’s interpretation of Pluto in The Astrology of Fate as representing the black man. It was part of a dream analysis she was working through with a client. I also mentioned how astrologer Sue Tompkins related Pluto with the black culture:

Black Culture and Our Historical Roots

“White people who have black lovers often have Venus and especially Mars in aspect to their Pluto. In less enlightened times such intermingling was considered to be taboo. However, black people with white lovers do not on the whole have the same aspects. This leads me to believe that Pluto has a lot to do with the black culture itself. There is much evidence to support this view. For a start, there is no doubt that, right across the globe, black culture has been suppressed by white cultures. Also black people fared much better and gained greater political power when Pluto was in its own sign of Scorpio.” Sue Tompkins – The Contemporary Astrologers Handbook

scahm · Oct 15, 2021

ElenaJ said:
Pluto is the planet that refers to race.
In the chart you posted it is in the 4th of endings/family/roots, and mercury, ruler of the 12th of hidden issues and of the intercepted 9th of philosophy and intellectual values, squares pluto by retrograde. - so the interception of Mercury reinforces that he couldn't tell me the relationship ended because he had been reflecting on our different backgrounds and didn't think it would work for that reason - that would make sense as he had told me he had been doing some reflecting alone before abruptly calling off the relationship.

Mercury is in the ascendent near the cusp of the 2nd of values. - what might this mean? He had always told me that he thought I was morally sound, had a good heart, etc. and Mercury is in my sign - did he approve of my values?
POF in the 3rd of thinking, and gossip, is exactly at the midpoint between mercury and pluto.- him being concerned with gossip would make sense given that he explicitly said that interracial relationships are considered rare.
Note also the 4th and 10th houses, both of your family ties and traditions, are moon approaching an opposition to Saturn, enforced by the fact that both of them are in these houses, although not in the sign on the cusps, so hidden from sight.- especially interesting when we consider the signs of these planets - for him, Moon in Leo - he was exceptionally proud of his family background and tradition (at times, even bordering on arrogant). For me, Saturn in Aquarius - this was probably considered different and alien to him. I'm inclined to think that his family may have had a hand in this decision as the breakup occurred whilst he was away on holiday with his family. I can imagine a conversation along the lines of 'she will never be one of us'.
Scham you may have put your finger on something here.
Keep in mind that Chiron is in the 7th opposing 7th ruler, mars, who is in your house.
This situation is causing him pain.- he had always made comments about it being 'hard to let me go' and I've always felt that this breakup wasn't something that he wanted to do but felt like he had to. Is there a possibility that he was coerced into it by family for example?

Thanks so much Elena - I've tried to put this analysis in the context of the relationship to see if I understood correctly.

I would love to know if there's anything that would suggest that he feels remorse or shame for the decision that he made. Our previous conversations on race had led me to believe that he had done some reflection on his biases but perhaps didn't feel strong enough to challenge his family on this too.

I can now understand that this person was not the right person for me and it has been tremendously helpful for my healing but I cannot escape the pain of knowing that this person had rejected me based on my identity.

scahm · Oct 15, 2021

katydid said:
Here is an interesting article about Pluto and racial identity:
https://theastrologyplacemembership.com/2011/04/plutos-shadow-and-the-black-man/

I once wrote somewhere on this blog about Liz Greene’s interpretation of Pluto in The Astrology of Fate as representing the black man. It was part of a dream analysis she was working through with a client. I also mentioned how astrologer Sue Tompkins related Pluto with the black culture:

Black Culture and Our Historical Roots

“White people who have black lovers often have Venus and especially Mars in aspect to their Pluto. In less enlightened times such intermingling was considered to be taboo. However, black people with white lovers do not on the whole have the same aspects. This leads me to believe that Pluto has a lot to do with the black culture itself. There is much evidence to support this view. For a start, there is no doubt that, right across the globe, black culture has been suppressed by white cultures. Also black people fared much better and gained greater political power when Pluto was in its own sign of Scorpio.” Sue Tompkins – The Contemporary Astrologers Handbook

Thanks katydid, that's a really interesting article. For clarity, I'm not actually Black - I'm of Asian descent but I would imagine the same principles would apply.

False hope?

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