uranus/pluto as it relates to internet freedom conversation with waybread and mark

whew!

feel free to not be inhibited in talking about astrology as it relates back to the conversation about internet freedom that was being had on another thread here in the general chat...

i think talking about this in relation to astrology is really quite fascinating and of value as well to the many of us who actually have an interest in astrology and talking astrology.. fancy that!! i see these 2 planets - uranus and pluto at polar opposite positions in what they represent and want to see take place..

to me this is especially relevant as we are moving towards the exact square between these 2 outer planets that i think is being witnessed in the heightened tension around the world today specifically as it relates to internet freedom and more..

If you read Uranus as the urge for freedom from restraint (arising from things like geographical distance, language differences, and political censorship), then the internet seems a prime Uranian vehicle for the coming together of the wider human family. And if Pluto symbolises the struggle for survival, then the internet becomes the arena for power struggle. The collective ideas of Uranus which can so easily emerge into the consciousness of humanity through the internet, have the power to transform - and those in power tend to take a dim view of transformation because when you're on top of the pile, there's only one direction to go in when everything gets shaken up.

I also think that things like 'facebook addiction' and various other symptoms of the internet age will appear like boils on the skin of 'civilisation' as Uranus and Pluto make their square aspect, demanding a radical look at our new found 'freedom' as potentially socially carcinogenic.

Thank you for starting this thread, James!
Just as you find Uranus square Pluto in the problem, astrology is in the answer to the problem.
On one level, the solution to the economic crisis is "Pluto in Libra," and those with this placement will know why it's a solution. From taxation, public trust funds can be set up, so that each person and family, Pluto in Libra at work, receives basic income that surpasses the poverty line and assures that they have a decent standard of living. Any income made above the basic income would come by their own effort. At the foundational level, astrology is the answer to the economic crises because it will help to create jobs and inform people on how to make wiser economic decisions. Horary can be used in forecast analysis for the profitability of economic goods and services, and astrologers can be hired in every job to advise people on transits' effects. As for the copyright violations, the creators of works should be the ones to decide how they want their works received by the public, and their independence is Uranian energy at work. There are Uranus and Pluto in the solution to their square. The creators of works can always consult their natal charts and transits to make their decisions, and this is astrology in the answer.

miquar,

that is really interesting what you say at the end " 'facebook addiction' and various other symptoms of the internet age will appear like boils on the skin of 'civilisation' as Uranus and Pluto make their square aspect, demanding a radical look at our new found 'freedom' as potentially socially carcinogenic."


if you think of the 20th century and the history that has taken shape at the same time these 2 planets uranus and pluto have been in hard aspect - the square in the 30's ( jan 1933 -helio 22 aries/cancer), the conjunction in the 60's (jan 1966 helio 16 virgo ) and the upcoming square nov 24 2013 helio 11 aries/capricorn) it is easy to ponder the parallels... these were important times in the world with the rise of fascism, the civil rights movement, different wars and movements towards war - basically big changes that seem to be what is upon us at this moment in time if you begin with the arab spring as only a part of the developing changes going on at the moment.. others might like to frame these ideas in some meaningful manner with the astro, as i do think these 2 planets have an important say in all of this..

t-s,

that is optimistic, but i do think astrology can give a better perspective on the changes we go through that can enlighten the experience for all of us in so far as we are receptive to having this framework - astrology - to take advantage of.. we still have to live it, but understanding how there are larger cycles at work that are having an impact on our daily lives is liberating, i think..

Pluto in Capricorn may shake up the established order-- but then it is going to move into Aquarius. So whatever Internet excesses we foster now are due for a subsequent shake-up themselves.

i think the outers shake up things, but overall i think pluto likes control and power, and in the sign cappy it is an attempt to maintain the power over the internet and freedoms that we take for granted.. i see the arab spring as uranus against pluto... some of the dictators are out, but have they just been replaced by another type of military dictatorship, or are they actually representative of more freedom?

to me uranus and pluto are like a clash between freedom and power... power doesn't like freedom and freedom doesn't relate to those who want to hang onto power..

change will come, but the folks who have power are going to want to retain it, and i am thinking more corporations, then i am tin pot dictators who happily serve these same corporations...

the federal reserve in new york.. now that is power... check out the chart - dec 23 1913... sun opp pluto - power chart... they basically over see the destruction of peoples money on a regular basis and if the private banks aren't making enough money in ponzi schemes - housing mark, thanks the politicians who serve them... that is power, and it isn't all that hidden anymore either..

meanwhile the 99% occupy wall st.. that is uranus saying we don't need this! so, yes i see these moments in the present as reflecting the clash these 2 planets represent to me and i see it continuing for a few more years and i wonder at what point people get beyond there apathy and really want to demonstrate en mass in the streets to put a stop to the ********..

talking on the net is just a small part of it.. it was an important ingredient to the arab spring too fwiw..

Hi Sandstone,

I know you and JupiterAsc like to have a good heated debate, it must be said i like both of you, thus am between a rock and a hard place ha ha!

Acta is now getting Hermetic, the signing ceremony of the EU for the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement was signed in Tokyo on 26th January 2012, however it does need to be presented to the European Parliament for debate before it is passed into law.

In symbolism and Legal jargon this is like a sunset clause, to be truthful it doesn't have anything to do with sunset, however hermetic philosophers will use symbolism.

Link below shows it needs to be presented to European Parliament for debate:-
http://www.psperspective.net/index.php?showtopic=93250

Date of Ceremony of signing in Tokyo on 26th January 2012 below:-
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/economy/i_property/acta1201.html

Funny how at sunset on 26th January 2012 in Tokyo, that Sirius is rising isn't it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunset_provision

Indeed the Patriot Act was in force long before 10th March 2006, but also had a sunset clause, this means it needs to be voted in again after a few years, but a sunset clause also means there are on going debate about structure of rules, most of any senate changes were removed on 10th March 2006 and signed into law by G.W.Bush on this date, please scroll down to "DETAILS" on link below:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

Funny isn't it on 10th March 2006 in Washington D.C., as Sun rises, Alnilam is on Nadir?

Both graphs on attachment!

sandstone said:

i think the outers shake up things, but overall i think pluto likes control and power, and in the sign cappy it is an attempt to maintain the power over the internet and freedoms that we take for granted.. i see the arab spring as uranus against pluto... some of the dictators are out, but have they just been replaced by another type of military dictatorship, or are they actually representative of more freedom?

to me uranus and pluto are like a clash between freedom and power... power doesn't like freedom and freedom doesn't relate to those who want to hang onto power..

change will come, but the folks who have power are going to want to retain it, and i am thinking more corporations, then i am tin pot dictators who happily serve these same corporations...

the federal reserve in new york.. now that is power... check out the chart - dec 23 1913... sun opp pluto - power chart... they basically over see the destruction of peoples money on a regular basis and if the private banks aren't making enough money in ponzi schemes - housing mark, thanks the politicians who serve them... that is power, and it isn't all that hidden anymore either..

meanwhile the 99% occupy wall st.. that is uranus saying we don't need this! so, yes i see these moments in the present as reflecting the clash these 2 planets represent to me and i see it continuing for a few more years and i wonder at what point people get beyond there apathy and really want to demonstrate en mass in the streets to put a stop to the ********..

talking on the net is just a small part of it.. it was an important ingredient to the arab spring too fwiw..

Click to expand...

I see Pluto as not so much about power, as to do with rebirth. In any power struggle each side will seek to control the outcome, but this is their approach to the situation rather than the core meaning of the archetype. To a dictator whose power is being refuted by her/his 'subjects', Plutonian energy is coming at her/him from the uprising. In this sense, Pluto does not necessarily just signify those who currently hold the power, but is perhaps more aligned with the uprising citizens who are swimming with Pluto's tide of transformation. The dictator is trying to swim against this tide, just as Chronos did when he swallowed his offspring to protect his reign.

So I would see Uranus square Pluto as not just symbolising a conflict between those in power and those who seek freedom from the constraints imposed by that power. I would also see it as the Uranian call for freedom intensified by the primal survival instincts of the masses. Political rehtoric with the stakes raised to a 'kill or be killed' perspective (and often a literal enactment). The square aspect demands that this be made manifest in concrete form.

Pluto also seeks freedom - the freedom to determine its own fate. The bitterness and depression often associated with Pluto, arises when in an individual or a nation when this self-determination is denied. Uranus and Pluto are both 'anarchic', even though they are polarised by virtue of Pluto's primitive passion and Uranus' ideals of civilised behaviour.

These are my thoughts on it, anyway.

hi monk and miquar,

thanks for your comments!

miquar here is more on pluto/uranus and how i see there energy manifesting..

pluto and uranus seem to have connections to the fixed axis - scorpio and aquarius... whether one wants to change the traditional rulerships of these signs is optional, but i do see this axis all about power - retaining and holding onto a particular ideal or value and being more fixed in general.. in this sense to me pluto is all about power and the lesson is very much connected to scorpio which a willingness to go for the rebirth or transformation to happen.. without that, there is no rebirth, or it is a more painful death before the rebirth can take place... this is my impression of the dictatorships still in power and the ones that have been removed from power in the arab world..

interesting example would be assad of syria.. he has a sun/pluo/uranus conjunction in virgo with mars/neptune conj in scorpio... to me the scorpio/pluto energy is firmly in place with him having to figure out a way in integrate the uranus in some way/shape/form.. - he was born on the pluto/uranus conjunction which i mentioned earlier..

back to pluto/uranus from another angle... these planets signify very different energies that are represented astrologically by the 2 elements water and air... i was mentioning elsewhere how i don't see these energies as in any ways connected.. water is subjective, feeling/emotive, attached more irrational, while air is objective, thinking, detached and rational oriented... the clash we are living on the planet seem to be captured by the very different nature of these planets..

pluto might represent freedom, if it could get past it's obsessive desire to control and let go, and perhaps that is the lesson for those with pluto strong in there charts - like me! uranus on the other hand i think uranus is more geared towards freedom, without necessarily acknowledging the deep undercurrents that are always operating to control the direction of the conversation on change...

these are my own subjective thoughts on these planets, but i do think they relate directly to the issue of freedom whether it be on the internet, or in the world thru the different types of government in place in the various countries one can consider at this moment in history..

socialism i think as more neptune/saturn and this is borne out of the work that andre barbault has done on the neptune/saturn cycle and communism as represented by russia - ussr... he has done some amazing work highlighting the cycle of these 2 outers in relation to the rise and fall of the soviet empire...

Sandstone and Miquar, you both are getting at the heart of Uranus in Aries square Pluto in Capricorn. Place Uranus in Aries and the drive for freedom becomes intensely aggressive and forthright in practice. Place Pluto in Capricorn and the drive for change is enmeshed in material possessions. There is a common thread running through their square and involving both of them. They are both ensnared in a tug-of-war for self-acceptance. Uranus in Aries is outwardly expressed through people by forceful and forthright speech and actions, so their identities are elevated and recognized as free beings. On the same level, Pluto in Capricorn is expressed through inward speech and actions where people express their hidden monetary or material motivations in private or hidden settings, so their beings remain elevated and recognized as powerful and elitist. See how both involve expressions in forceful tones: Uranus in Aries where the force of the individual and group is expressed to bring ideals to life and Pluto in Capricorn where the force of the individual and group is expressed through the material reality of ownership. This feud between Uranus in Aries and Pluto in Capricorn involves power on both ends, as you find Sandstone, the power of the people to be recognized by freedom and the power of the elites to be recognized by status and wealth. Underlying this power on both ends is the power of persuasion as both placements involve intangible expression and manipulation to control, as you found Miquar, the result. Uranus in Aries is about people using informational media to promote a message of freedom and self-assertion to reinforce their inner actuality, and Pluto in Capricorn is about elites using the informational media for their personal monetary gain and wealth to reinforce their inner actuality. In so many ways, the conflict is taking place through the means of informational technology, primarily with ideas and intangible thought to control thoughts and emotions, much like the articles and news media provoking fears through the suggestions and ideas in their written words.
But at the deepest root of this square is discovery, when the outer and inner worlds expose it. This discovery is Pluto at its deepest. The square between Pluto and another planet, like the Sun, is where the power struggles and tensions come to pass as the ego or self is in the process of discovering how it should be. The result from this discovery can be transformation, but by the choice of the individual. Decisions rest on this Plutonic process of discovery of the self and environment. Uranus in Aries square Pluto in Capricorn is about this process of discovery where people must decide how they can express themselves by the ideals of freedom and realities of material survival.
I identify Pluto as self-discovery because I am in a Pluto transit right now and have Pluto in me. The experience can be explained in an allegory. It's like walking through an alighted tunnel under the ground, where the furniture, walls, and ceilings are aglow in a bright yellow light, and one is coming face to face with information about what is inside the self as what is all around it.

t -s

capricorn is about the status quo as i see it... folks with strong cappy are into maintaining the status quo... to me pluto in cap is about maintaining the status quo and involves a fear of seeing it taken away.. the gov'ts, corporations and established structures embedded that define our present society need to change - undergo a transformation - a pluto thing - and there is huge resistance to this with pluto in this same location... it will come, but not without a struggle..

uranus in aries is definitely about more freedom, personal and in general.. it is 'anti- establishment' as i see it.. it is the combo of planet in sign.. this is why i think the pluto uranus square taking place now is bringing some of these big changes in gov'ts round the world... meanwhile europe continues to teeter... watch britian this year... a sun in cappy country... they are undergoing the pluto transit to their sun, if you use the jan 1 1801 chart for them.. the april 12 1927 while different is undergoing serious transits as well.. i ought to look at more of the data around these 2 charts...

the usa chart is up for grabs.. i am not convinced of the cancer sun, and like the april 30 1789 chart for first president.. it has a moon in cancer - sun in taurus - the 2 money signs, so it makes more c$ to me..

saudi arabia, another cappy country comes later towards 2017/18 area.. talk about a rigid dynamic in the leadership there... maybe they will hold on, as the oil and close ties to the us keeps them better insulated... it is all about money, which is why i mentioned the fed reserve - another cappy chart.. bank of england, while not another cappy chart has sun/pluto conjunction, which is similar to the fed reserve with the sun/pluto opp... to me these hard aspect plutos are all about hanging onto the power at all costs.....

Poor maligned Capricorn!

Some of Capricorn's so-called love of the status quo has to do with:

1. Trying to see the world as-is, not as wished-for. 2+2 is always going to =4, no matter how badly we might hope it will be =3 or 5. It is an earth sign, so like Taurus and Virgo, its orientation is primarily material and practical. And there is nothing inherently wrong with the earth element. It is how we eat and put a roof over our heads.

2. Capricorn's strategy as a cardinal sign is to understand how a practical system works, and then, mountain goat-like, to attempt to climb to the top of it. In modern astrology, a person with a strong Capricorn influence might be deemed to have administrative ability. We need people like this.

3. Capricorn's mottos might be, "If its not broken, don't fix it." "Don't throw the baby out with the bath-water." To Capricorn, progress occurs only if an innovation is demonstrably superior to what it purports to replace.

4. Capricorn is ruled by Saturn, which gives it an affiliation with old age and a long view of history. Societies who honour their seniors and their heritage, and who have enough sense to provide for their futures exemplify the positive qualities of Capricorn's outlook on life. Equally, the negative side of Saturnian Capricorn would be a morbid fear of the future.

Capricorn is not the only retentive sign, incidentally. Each sign hangs onto something dear to it, even if it is one's freedom to claim one's utter independence. Aquarius? You know the old saying, "There is no one so conservative as an old liberal." Aries? "I gotta be me!"-- even when cooperation would be advantageous.

So if we unpack your post, sandstone [and I am not picking on you personally here, just by way of general example], you said that, "to me pluto in cap is about maintaining the status quo and involves a fear of seeing it taken away.. the gov'ts, corporations and established structures embedded that define our present society need to change - undergo a transformation - a pluto thing - and there is huge resistance to this with pluto in this same location... it will come, but not without a struggle."

While this might be true for some individuals and institutions, look at the flip side of this coin. Suppose I came to your home, and decided to take away your belongings because you seem to be an anti-Capricorn, pro-change, soak-the-rich kinda guy. I might even claim to be a latter-day Robin Hood. So obviously you would be prepared to walk the talk? I doubt that you would gladly relinquish what you own. You want to claim that you're not rich? You would seem rich to a homeless person in a slum in India, or the majority of the population of Africa. Who is to say they're mistaken?

We need to change government? Good. Presumably you not only vote, but you also campaign tirelessly for candidates who support your views and contribute to them.

You want to change the banks? Each and every one of them?? Well, in addition to materially supporting political candidates who also want to change them; your deposits should go into your local credit union or into one of the state or local banks in your area; ideally one that reinvests in your community via its loan policies. Presumably you also belong to organizations attempting to change banking rules and regulations more to your liking.

Corporations? Presumably you are educated about them, ideally through reading their statements and reports and the financial/economic news. Even better, presumably you own at least a couple of shares in them so that you have some hope of modifying their policies. If you find any that are truly heinous, presumably you organize boycotts of their products and publicize through the media the nasty things they are doing.

I mean, Pluto isn't going to somehow magically make these transformations for us. They take real people undertaking real actions. It doesn't take people sitting back criticizing nameless, faceless, generic villains straight out of a melodrama. Real people put their lives on the line in the Arab Spring! And some of them paid the ultimate price.

As Ghandi put it, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

hi waybread,

i like your post!!! i am fine with capricorn and this isn't a gang up on cappy that i am coming from... sometimes the status quo is fine, sometimes it isn't... it has to do with rigid systems in need of change that have outworn there '''usefulness''... one can always say one is being practical to keep dictatorships in place... one can also say that an approach like that can't be good in the long run for humanity as a whole... in this regard i think the usa's role historically since it road to power after the 2nd world war is interesting to examine..

do you think the folks in iran were happy with the shah or iran? it didn't really matter as far as usa foreign policy was concerned at that moment in time... funny how history has a way of repeating too..

my comments on the federal reserve come out of having read up on the institution... it is a great ponzi scheme and it is the status quo that most folks don't take the time to examine, but it is another example of an area that is ripe for a wider examination on the part of the public... banking crisis's will continue.. bail out is the name of the game... personally i am not for maintaining that type of status quo... it is based on some duping a large majority thru ignorance as i see it..

pluto going thru cappy is really trying to maintain a hold on power at all costs and on it's own not taking the steps to transformation in a graceful manner, so much as in a forced manner.. rioting in the streets - uranus in aries is much more likely as i see it..

thanks for the ghandi quote... we all do this in our own way... me talking astrology here is only one of a number of outlets for my desire to see the world i want to live in... if someone in some small part is helped along with any of it - great! if not, maybe i will be! thanks for your comments...

I've posted this a couple of times elsewhere, but it bears repeating.

Mark said:

As to the astrology, check out where Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto will be in the 2020's. Watch as each one passes into a new sign. First Pluto entering Aquarius (2023), returning to the position it held at the time of the American revolutionary war. Then Neptune entering Aries (2024), returning to the position it held at the time of the American civil war. Then Uranus entering Gemini (2025), returning to the position it held at the time of the American civil war and World War II. It seems that the mid-2020's will be a time in which America is involved with serious conflict that will probably have global implications and may have to do with awakening the collective awareness of the human cause of human suffering.

Click to expand...

Feel and think however you want about what should be. Change is coming. Time marches on.

P.S. Waybread, I think, in about 10 or 15 years, you will pine for the good old days when revolutionaries just sat back and complained, instead of overturning systems of government. This too shall pass away and rebirth shall follow in its wake. It is the human condition.

Mark said:

I've posted this a couple of times elsewhere, but it bears repeating.



Feel and think however you want about what should be. Change is coming. Time marches on.

P.S. Waybread, I think, in about 10 or 15 years, you will pine for the good old days when revolutionaries just sat back and complained, instead of overturning systems of government. This too shall pass away and rebirth shall follow in its wake. It is the human condition.

Click to expand...

Say what, Mark? You seem to think I am a conservative!

I am having trouble seeing representations of Uranus in Aries as separate from Pluto in Capricorn, Sandstone. I think that Waybread understands what I am seeing. Pluto in Capricorn can refer to people beyond the status quo. It can also mean the masses of people who want material change. The protestors in Wall Street along with the protestors in different countries across the Arab world are examples of people who are looking for this material change. They are protesting because they are frustrated that they do not even have enough material resources for their survival needs. For them, Pluto in Capricorn has opened their eyes to their plunging desperate situation, and they look for changing it to be financially secure to have the nutrition, shelter, and health to survive. Similarly, Uranus in Aries can include the status quo as Aries represents direction and leadership, and Uranus in Aries can mean independence and rebelliousness (Uranus) by leaders and government chiefs (Aries) to direct according to their own goals for their countries and themselves. An example is Libya's leader who had an Aries Moon and a fiery temperament in pursuing his goals and Uranus square Mars in Egypt and the former Egyptian leader's chart, representing violent rebellion for freedom, yet re-creating conditions of bondage. Even the charts for countries are open to interpretation depending on when one defines their moment of birth, time of revolution as Mark discusses, or time of inhabitation. The meanings in astrology are so intricately involved that those that seem like fixed differences are able to be changeable similarities. I had not been thinking of this intricate connection before, but I feel that it comes from the endlessness of vision and intuition.
I wish I could be objective in my understanding of the Uranus and Pluto square, but my subjective experience with Pluto is the reason for my understanding of it. The Pluto square transit that I am in, has lighted, both materially and spiritually, the darkness that I had known for so long. I am neither at a point of struggle or transformation, though my free will has been speaking of transformation even before this Pluto square. What I am going through is a time of discovery by examining what is happening in my surroundings and how it affects my inner self. You feel that a dark space is being lighted by a bright and ubiquitous flashlight and you find pictures of the past that are becoming less and less relevant to your life every day because they do not relate to your purest self: your soul's identity. This experience is the reason for my understanding of Pluto in Capricorn as an examination of material foundations and why they are causing such frustration and misery to communities of individuals with intricate identities.

t-s,

i really liked reading your more personal comments coming out of your experience t-s.. i think one can interpret this pluto/uranus square a few ways, and i am only sharing mine.. the transformation is a result of the clash between the 2 very different energies colliding as opposed to the result of one or the other.. they are only malefic in that they are more demanding of some sort of change that some or many, may not be ready for..

capricorn lords it over aries essentially.. aries could help lead capricorn to a new and more fluid place as i see it, but i suppose capricorn has to be ready for the change. it would be different if it was the reverse here with uranus in cap and pluto in aries.. i see a lot of gov'ts and leaders including kadaffi as trying hard to hold onto what they had and not succeeding. the change is coming to a number of institutions, gov'ts and people in power that have gotten used to there position of power and i think it is good.. i am not asking for anarchy, but we might eventually get that if enough people are dissatisfied with the direction their gov't's go in..

exerting power thru war is very popular.. i suppose it always has been, but with the technology available today many people can be affected very quickly.. do i think nuclear power expressed in warfare is a good thing? no.. do i think the focus of so many economies seem driven by this is a good thing? nope.. this is some of what i see going on and as much as i work towards wanting to see a world in peace, i see the desire to control resources and continue in this way we are going as stepping closer and closer to the edge of a cliff.. at what point does society reach a critical point of putting a stop to it? do we have to have a nuclear event like what happened at the end of the 2nd world war for people, especially those in positions of power to realize the need to step back from the direction we have been going on?

it seems to me there is a movement towards war in the middle east, the next stop being iran.. a few countries seem very keen to make this happen.. i find it all very disturbing and i see nothing coming out of these countries that is all that positive.. it is the same banging of drums thru the usual media outlets..

feel free to comment or voice your views on the astro taking place.. higher up the thread i mentioned some key historical moments when these 2 planets were in hard aspect with one another.. however one wants to define the interaction between these 2 planets in hard aspect, i think it has great bearing astrologically for this moment we are moving in for the next few years... cheers - james

James, it is enlightening when I read different personal experiences and find they share a common thread of identifying meaning in them. There is nothing like the experience of a transit for a person to be able to describe its effects. The energies may seem different because Uranus is impulsive and Pluto is deliberate, but the effect of their influence is the same, they both are freeing reactions to restrictive situations.
In the same way, Aries and Capricorn are both leaders and like the planets aspecting in them. Aries is impulsive and willful leadership and Capricorn is deliberate and rational leadership. Pluto in Capricorn is making the mind ready for material change through slow, deliberate insights. The astrology is telling of what goes on in the human mind. We might think that leaders are just holding onto power, but much of the Uranus and Pluto square is in the individual. We do not see what happens behind closed doors, but leaders like Gaddafi may have this Uranus square Pluto going on in their mind, or struggling to figure out whether they should restrain themselves by abandoning their status and wealth and retaining their lives or retain their status and wealth and liberate themselves by dying for their ideals. These intricacies in planetary aspects come out in human thought and behavior. I think that Pluto in Capricorn will bring some hope in that it will influence people to reflect on the material organization in our countries and why they are not satisfying or sturdy. These thoughts will lead to ideas for change in the material organization, for the standard of living to be raised for grieving individuals and societies. The square between Uranus and Pluto is about these conflicts between impulsive decisions, like warfare and aggression represented by Uranus in Aries, and deliberate decisions, like material restructuring represented by Pluto in Capricorn. If we look at what is happening, see how countries are not rushing into nuclear action, because of the history of its devastation. It is what we were discussing at the start: how personal experience influences decisions and actions. I'm looking back at the historical moments you mentioned, the square of both Uranus and Pluto in the 30's, where economic restructuring by Franklin Roosevelt and violent outbreaks from Germany were taking place, and it has similar implications for the current square with economic restructuring and violent outbreaks in the Arab region. But what is important is to see that economic structuring led to more jobs and the economic affluence of the 50's and violent outbreak from Germany led to a coalition of nations to protect their right to national sovereignty from being threatened by other nations. In the same way, your example of the Uranus and Pluto conjunction in the 60's is like the current aspect between Uranus and Pluto because of its questioning influence of the social structure of life by the different social groups, like minorities and women, advancing their cause from being marginalized to becoming mainstream. This questioning is like the current Pluto and Uranus square where society's material organization and values are being questioned by different groups who want to see material restructuring and redistribution, so they can live freely without the burden of living by necessity and survival each day. People's experiences influence their decisions and reactions as in the previous Uranus and Pluto aspects to their square aspect in our current day.

waybread said:

2. Capricorn's strategy as a cardinal sign is to understand how a practical system works, and then, mountain goat-like, to attempt to climb to the top of it. In modern astrology, a person with a strong Capricorn influence might be deemed to have administrative ability. We need people like this.

Click to expand...

Being a G.Cross Cappy(fresh from the depths of transiting PLUTO),that has been driven(for decades) to understand how this system works because it is not practical,is why I'M here.To help tear down the "Status Quo".Is that a good or bad thing?Depends on your perception,soul age, and how entrenched you are in the "status quo".Upon challenging one woman in my peer group(60+) with my revolutionary ideas about government & the stock market etc,i was severely criticized and later discovered she was heavily invested in 'Pharmaceuticals'.Yes we do look for the top of the mountain.If i were an obedient slave(BLUE PILL),i would be ripping the top of the mountain off to mine.The top of my mountain wants to see all that is unjust,corrupt,limiting,and holding up progress/safety/health/happiness and the pursuit of LOVE for EVERYONE.Those whose perception of freedom is that which we have now,really need to find some RED PILLS.

We need to change government? Good. Presumably you not only vote, but you also campaign tirelessly for candidates who support your views and contribute to them.

Click to expand...

Once again Waybread,those who have followed & tried this inane logic to change a corrupt government gets it.What have you missed about the broken promises of candidates and the continuing oppressive laws & 'Executive Orders' that supersede constitutionality.Your'e going to vote for the little foxs that work for the 'Big Fox' to not eat us little chickens in the henhouse.Good lord,the process is skewed from the outset.Why do they fear another party being formed?Why has Obama continued Bush atrocities?Your vote counts is the grandest illusion of all time.

Corporations? Presumably you are educated about them, ideally through reading their statements and reports and the financial/economic news. Even better, presumably you own at least a couple of shares in them so that you have some hope of modifying their policies. If you find any that are truly heinous, presumably you organize boycotts of their products and publicize through the media the nasty things they are doing.

Click to expand...

I'm going to educate myself by reading the reports & statements from the very people & organizations i dont trust???That is anything but ideal.And, you would have me buy shares and be partners in corruption with them??? Publicize through the media that they own???Boycotts have rarely ever worked due to lack of education/awareness/consensus.You like it in the hen house dont you?

I am gradually pulling the astrological knowledge i'm learning about in with a lifetime of observation & experience to coalesce a vision of unity with, diversity/growth/progress/freedom.Freedom to imagine & create.What exists at the present
does not allow this.

http://youtu.be/7r-pbD1kIUE

[/QUOTE]

Michael, your idealism is really touching. My chart is mostly air and fire (i.e., I'm an "idea" person) but I have to shake my head at people who expect perfection from others and then get embittered when the real world doesn't obligingly fit their pictures. What do you expect?

I don't naively expect politicians to keep their campagin promises. As in, duh-uh. A campagin promise is like a wish-list. Intelligent voters understand this.

So sure, continue to feel embittered. Carry on. In the meantime, the people who feel differently in the US are out campaigning for their candidates, saving the whales or the redwoods, supporting local farmers, donating money to charitable causes they believe in, and not blaming Mr. Big for whatever they don't like about the planet.