Morality of Predicting Death?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I am on record as opposing astrological death prediction.
Nevertheless, you are ALSO on record as advocating astrological death clock post-diction
We sometimes use the word "post-diction." The techniques may be the same, but we use a past example.
While vociferously claiming to oppose astrological death clock prediction,
you simultaneously advocate astrological death clock post-diction.

Astrological death clock post-diction is used in order to hone and improve astrological death clock prediction skills :smile:

Clearly that's hypocrisy on the part of anyone advocating specifically astrological death clock post-diction
while simultaneously claiming to oppose astrological death clock prediction
 

Marinka

Well-known member
Marinka, this is not about who is guilty. It is about raising awareness of vulnerability and making an informed decision. How a third-party reading member is going to react is not subject to your predictions.

It is my career to work with vulnerable people. Death and death angst (lots of literature about it) is statistically extremely common. Asking for proof in this context sounds almost sadistic and, in any event, unethical. Can anyone imagine submitting a research proposal to an ethics board that reads: "This study aims to assess whether astrological death predictions of one's sick parents is going to affect the level of depression amongst a suicidal teenage population. Of particular importance is the interaction between suicidal teenager and death prediction which is false and death prediction which is not. Ultimately, this study would be considered convincing if at least one suicidal teenager is harmed as a result of participation." No, Marinka. If you cant empathise with the possibility for harm, irrespective of what I say, if it plesases you more to take the risk, or to see evidence of harm, I will not pretend to understand and so be it.


So .... may I make a seasonable assumption that you personally know of no one that has been hurt by this?

I understand where you are coming from Mandy (or I think I do) ... you are either in or will shortly be in a profession that is greatly concerned with the mental well-being of their clients and you take that to heart.

Having said that, I think many of your objections should be aimed at the internet in general and how people interact socially on it. Consider for example .. Facebook and the role (if any) it had with the recent teenage suicides because of teenagers posting comments like "Kill yourself" on another teens' timeline. Facebook didn't get banned and they are still studying the appropriate action they should take. And, for even more horrors, some people were still posting not so nice comments after the teen's suicide. And, pictures of the teen that committed suicide were showing up in ads (one of facebook's newer features where an image of you gets put into ads).





 

waybread

Well-known member
So .... may I make a seasonable assumption that you personally know of no one that has been hurt by this?

I understand where you are coming from Mandy (or I think I do) ... you are either in or will shortly be in a profession that is greatly concerned with the mental well-being of their clients and you take that to heart.

Having said that, I think many of your objections should be aimed at the internet in general and how people interact socially on it. Consider for example .. Facebook and the role (if any) it had with the recent teenage suicides because of teenagers posting comments like "Kill yourself" on another teens' timeline. Facebook didn't get banned and they are still studying the appropriate action they should take. And, for even more horrors, some people were still posting not so nice comments after the teen's suicide. And, pictures of the teen that committed suicide were showing up in ads (one of facebook's newer features where an image of you gets put into ads).

This is an unbelieveable example of the "two wrongs make a right" standard. Are the abuses on Facebook consistent with your personal ethics?

I take a stand above the lowest common denominator. We are talking about a field already in disrepute amongst most educated people, that has the potential to harm the emotional state of the terminally ill, the mentally ill, minors, and other vulnerable people by trolls, newbies, and power-trippers. You'd think that, if anything, we would set an ethical bar above the worst abuses on the Internet, not at its level.

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waybread

Well-known member
Nevertheless, you are ALSO on record as advocating astrological death clock post-diction

While vociferously claiming to oppose astrological death clock prediction,
you simultaneously advocate astrological death clock post-diction.

Astrological death clock post-diction is used in order to hone and improve astrological death clock prediction skills :smile:

Clearly that's hypocrisy on the part of anyone advocating specifically astrological death clock post-diction
while simultaneously claiming to oppose astrological death clock prediction

I do not advocate post-dicting death. Never. But to the extent that death-clock astrology fascinates some people, I have yet to see any harm coming from learning the predictive techniques retrospectively; i. e., through a "historical" analysis of the deceased.

But if you know of any harm, please tell me about it.

I never recommended that anyone practice their post-dictive skills in order to predict death for living people.

I could say volumes about fastlane69's thread, though not in a way that would validate your apparent thirst for death prediction. Let's just say that it is one individual and that the thread as a whole doesn't speak well for the consistency of horary chart readings amongst this forum community.

Surely you see a difference between the living and the dead?

[deleted trolling comments - Moderator]
 
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Marinka

Well-known member
This is an unbelieveable example of the "two wrongs make a right" standard. Are the abuses on Facebook consistent with your personal ethics?

I take a stand above the lowest common denominator. We are talking about a field already in disrepute amongst most educated people, that has the potential to harm the emotional state of the terminally ill, the mentally ill, minors, and other vulnerable people by trolls, newbies, and power-trippers. You'd think that, if anything, we would set an ethical bar above the worst abuses on the Internet, not at its level.

And for what reason, Marinka? So that you can explore your hobby with a "live one" on the hook?


I'm not sure what to think about Facebook and the issues that arise from their tool - I just haven't given it enough thought - so not prepared to comment .. yet.

Again, maybe you have knowledge of someone hurt by predictions, specifically death, on this site ...
 

waybread

Well-known member
As I noted in a previous post

---

"I respectfully ask, where is your evidence that this has happened?"

----
Is there any evidence?

I can see your stand and I respect it but, it seems to me that conclusions are being made on "whatifs, maybes, and possibilities".


Well, aren't yours? I posted one example, above, from the Indian media, of an Indian astrologer who predicted his own timing and manner death. This prospect so upset him that he committed suicide in advance of his due-date.

Surely this says to you (a) that a death prediction even by a pro is supect. If Vedic death prediction actually worked, suicide would have been impossible. And (b) even a society with a profound religious belief in reincarnation will have individual members who fear natural death to commit suicide. (contra the cultural relativism argument.)

I cited above an example of a young poster who was terrified because an astrologer "friend" told the poster his mother would probably die because his progressed moon moved into the 8th house. I no longer recall the details or I might search and link it. He just couldn't let go of the idea that this prediction might be valid.

A distressed young woman from eastern Europe (where dire fortune-telling may be more common) posted in distress because an "astrologer" or fortune-teller (I wasn't clear which) told her she would die by suicide. This young woman said that she was, in fact, feeling suicidal.

But this is a misleading question, because nobody will return to this forum to report back about their subsequent demise. Many horary questions give no feedback. Many suggest that the horary astrologers were wrong. "No, I didn't find the keys where you said they should be, but I'll keep looking."

I recall another thread, where a woman was in a late-stage of cancer, and she eventually went to the hospital for what she believed would be her final journey. She was asking for medical astrology advice about natural health remedies (not a death prediction). About the best we could do was be emotionally supportive. Then her posts stopped.

Mercifully the number of death prediction requests so far have been low, and Tim already bans admittedly suicidal posters.... that is, when he's on line to catch them. (I think this isn't such a hot idea, BTW, because you can direct such people to suicide hot-lines, suggest United Way agencies with low-cost professional counseling services, keep them talking, &c.)

We often see threads by people who are upset, lonely, confused, in poor health, and very young. Significant self-esteem problems are extremely common. So we know the vulnerable ones are out here.

Unknowns abound in ethical decision-making. A given treatment may have some potential benefits as well as potential risks. They've worked out how to make decisions under such circumstances. Professional medical ethicists and end-of-life professionals have protocols on how to deal with these unknowns.

They never come on the side of "Indulge your hobby, and 'the devil take the hindmost.'"
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Oh, JA-- I just love it when you try to trip me up like this. Like a soccer goalie catching a nice pop fly ball floating into his arms, I can take these posts all day. And often need to. Maybe work on your corner kick?

I do not advocate post-dicting death. Never. But to the extent that death-clock astrology fascinates some people, I have yet to see any harm coming from learning the predictive techniques retrospectively; i. e., through a "historical" analysis of the deceased.

But if you know of any harm, please tell me about it.

I never recommended that anyone practice their post-dictive skills in order to predict death for living people.

I could say volumes about fastlane69's thread, though not in a way that would validate your apparent thirst for death prediction. Let's just say that it is one individual and that the thread as a whole doesn't speak well for the consistency of horary chart readings amongst this forum community.

Surely you see a difference between the living and the dead?
Clearly unaware of the obvious connection between
astrological death clock prediction
and
astrological death clock post-diction

How useful to say to a deceased client that they are already dead
:smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well, aren't yours? I posted one example, above, from the Indian media, of an Indian astrologer who predicted his own timing and manner death. This prospect so upset him that he committed suicide in advance of his due-date.

Surely this says to you (a) that a death prediction even by a pro is supect. If Vedic death prediction actually worked, suicide would have been impossible. And (b) even a society with a profound religious belief in reincarnation will have individual members who fear natural death to commit suicide. (contra the cultural relativism argument.)

I cited above an example of a young poster who was terrified because an astrologer "friend" told the poster his mother would probably die because his progressed moon moved into the 8th house. I no longer recall the details or I might search and link it. He just couldn't let go of the idea that this prediction might be valid.

A distressed young woman from eastern Europe (where dire fortune-telling may be more common) posted in distress because an "astrologer" or fortune-teller (I wasn't clear which) told her she would die by suicide. This young woman said that she was, in fact, feeling suicidal.

But this is a misleading question, because nobody will return to this forum to report back about their subsequent demise. Many horary questions give no feedback. Many suggest that the horary astrologers were wrong. "No, I didn't find the keys where you said they should be, but I'll keep looking."

I recall another thread, where a woman was in a late-stage of cancer, and she eventually went to the hospital for what she believed would be her final journey. She was asking for medical astrology advice about natural health remedies (not a death prediction). About the best we could do was be emotionally supportive. Then her posts stopped.

Mercifully the number of death prediction requests so far have been low, and Tim already bans admittedly suicidal posters.... that is, when he's on line to catch them. (I think this isn't such a hot idea, BTW, because you can direct such people to suicide hot-lines, suggest United Way agencies with low-cost professional counseling services, keep them talking, &c.)

We often see threads by people who are upset, lonely, confused, in poor health, and very young. Significant self-esteem problems are extremely common. So we know the vulnerable ones are out here.

Unknowns abound in ethical decision-making. A given treatment may have some potential benefits as well as potential risks. They've worked out how to make decisions under such circumstances. Professional medical ethicists and end-of-life professionals have protocols on how to deal with these unknowns.

They never come on the side of "Indulge your hobby, and 'the devil take the hindmost.'"
Protesting against astrological death clock prediction
while advocating astrological relationship death clock prediction
is clearly hypocritical and ignores potential harm to these 'lonely, confused people' above mentioned who also seek relationship potential prediction
:smile:
 

Marinka

Well-known member
I posted one example, above, from the Indian media, of an Indian astrologer who predicted his own timing and manner death. This prospect so upset him that he committed suicide in advance of his due-date.

I cited above an example of a young poster who was terrified because an astrologer "friend" told the poster his mother would probably die because his progressed moon moved into the 8th house. I no longer recall the details or I might search and link it. He just couldn't let go of the idea that this prediction might be valid.

A distressed young woman from eastern Europe (where dire fortune-telling may be more common) posted in distress because an "astrologer" or fortune-teller (I wasn't clear which) told her she would die by suicide. This young woman said that she was, in fact, feeling suicidal.

I recall another thread, where a woman was in a late-stage of cancer, and she eventually went to the hospital for what she believed would be her final journey. She was asking for medical astrology advice about natural health remedies (not a death prediction). About the best we could do was be emotionally supportive. Then her posts stopped.


I'm a bit confused ... none of these appear to be predictions from this site or from any other internet site.

Do you have any that originated from this site?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Protesting against astrological death clock prediction
while advocating astrological relationship death clock prediction
is clearly hypocritical and ignores potential harm to these 'lonely, confused people' above mentioned who also seek relationship potential prediction:smile:

Say what? This doesn't compute. Where did I advocate "astrological relationship death clock prediction?
 
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waybread

Well-known member
I'm a bit confused ... none of these appear to be predictions from this site or from any other internet site.

Do you have any that originated from this site?

The examples are all from this site, other than the Indian astrologer example which I gleaned from a web search.

Marinka, I also have to say, isn't there a compassionate common-sense factor at work here? You seem to be grasping at straws. How do you trade-off your apparently keen desire to predict death for people with all of the evidence beyond this site that this isn't an ethically sound idea?
 

Marinka

Well-known member
The examples are all from this site, other than the Indian astrologer example which I gleaned from a web search.

Marinka, I also have to say, isn't there a compassionate common-sense factor at work here? You seem to be grasping at straws. How do you trade-off your apparently keen desire to predict death for people with all of the evidence beyond this site that this isn't an ethically sound idea?



Hmm.... those examples you provided (while interesting) are not from people getting death predictions on this site .. are they? It seems that they may have come to this site after but, the predictions originated (if they are even true) from someplace else.

 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Say what? This doesn't compute. Where did I advocate "astrological relationship death clock prediction? Whatever that might possibly mean. Tell me, and we'll both know. I am beginning to wonder if you actually read what I write, because you don't seem to understand it.

You have another thread on relationships. Maybe that is the place to post about what you thought I meant yet didn't say but could have implied yet somehow didn't actually post yet could have done so, such that I must have meant something other than what I intended.....
Earlier on this thread, Paul described a devastating prediction given concerning a relationship.

It seems there is some difficulty understanding that astrological death clock prediction
is on a par with astrological relationship death clock prediction
:smile:
 

Mandy

Well-known member
So .... may I make a seasonable assumption that you personally know of no one that has been hurt by this?
I know someone who has been subject to considerable distress by astrological death prediction. Yes it was from this site. What does that prove for you?

I understand where you are coming from Mandy (or I think I do) ... you are either in or will shortly be in a profession that is greatly concerned with the mental well-being of their clients and you take that to heart.
Wrong. I do not take the wellbeing of people seriously because it is my job to do so. I take the wellbeing of people seriously because it is a matter of principle and compassionate perspective.

Having said that, I think many of your objections should be aimed at the internet in general and how people interact socially on it. Consider for example .. Facebook and the role (if any) it had with the recent teenage suicides because of teenagers posting comments like "Kill yourself" on another teens' timeline. Facebook didn't get banned and they are still studying the appropriate action they should take. And, for even more horrors, some people were still posting not so nice comments after the teen's suicide. And, pictures of the teen that committed suicide were showing up in ads (one of facebook's newer features where an image of you gets put into ads).
I was waiting for you to expand this clear and specific issue that is on the table to the internet at large. I will not entertain the externalising of personal responsibility. Discussion is astrological death prediction.




 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
....Discussion is astrological death prediction.
Discussion as stated on this thread is 'Morality of Predicting Death?'

NOT whether astrological death clock prediction should be banned
NOR whether astrological death clock prediction should NOT be banned

The discussion is the Morality or otherwise - that is all :smile:
 

Marinka

Well-known member
I know someone who has been subject to considerable distress by astrological death prediction. Yes it was from this site. What does that prove for you?

Might I request a link to the thread?

Also, did they lodge a complaint with the moderators?
 

Mandy

Well-known member
I'm a bit confused ... none of these appear to be predictions from this site or from any other internet site.

Do you have any that originated from this site?

To clarify your confusion, the topic of discussion is not the site. The topic is morality, a personal responsibility.
 
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Mandy

Well-known member
Might I request a link to the thread?

Also, did they lodge a complaint with the moderators?

Marinka, the answers to these questions are none of your business and completely beside the topic of discussion.

Morality of Predicting Death?
 

Marinka

Well-known member
Marinka, the answers to these questions are none of your business and completely beside the topic of discussion.

Morality of Predicting Death?


Ok ... I guess from your answer I can only conclude that you have no proof that people have been harmed from this site through death prediction ...
 

Mandy

Well-known member
Ok ... I guess from your answer I can only conclude that you have no proof that people have been harmed from this site through death prediction ...

You do not need to guess since my answer was clear. It stated that who the person is and what their situation is.

Secondly, as mentioned previously and also in the title, the site name has nothing to do with the discussion. Morality is a personal and professional compass.

[deleted comments that could be considered attacking - Moderator]
 
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