dangers of inaccurate birth data

Claire19

Claire19

Well-known member
I would just like to comment that when we are not sure of our time of birth and especially our date of birth, any analysis is bound to be flawed. I would warn against giving and asking advice in this circumstance until a rectfication is done and the chart is as accurate as possible. I dont even read a chart if the day is right and the time is not known within at least half an hour or so.

Claire
 
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Draco

Well-known member
I would just like to comment that when we are not sure of our time of birth and especially our date of birth, any analysis is bound to be flawed.
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This isn't true for me. Any chart is worth analysis until such information comes to light that that would cause us to adjust it. If everything that happens in any moment in time, has the qualities of that moment in time, the precept that all astrology is based upon and cannot survive without, then surely if we are given a chart, whatever the time, then it has significant information to yield to that person at that time. Everything happens for a reason, that's what astrology is all about. I once used a chart for myself for the wrong time, willfully in fact, and I found out all sorts about myself as a result.

Refer to the thread 'Tampering with the Natal', in the natal section. I would provide a link but I don't know how. I am sure that there are other relevant threads about this, perhaps AM could direct you to them?

until a rectfication is done and the chart is as accurate as possible
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When rectifying a chart is it a case of determining what is accurate or what is significant? Rectification of a chart is dependent upon what is most significant according to observations, whether or not it is 'accurate' or not according to the mathematics of clock time, would be impossible to ever ascertain.

If a chart is rectified, the surely there ought to some sort of time to which the rectified chart can be compared and contrasted, otherwise, where is the control factor in the experiment?

I dont even read a chart if the day is right and the time is not known within at least half an hour or so.
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This is a shame. Lately I have been thinking that it is very worthwhile, when looking at a persons chart, to first just look at a solar chart, and thouroughly consider the placement of the planets and the aspects between them, even before going on to consider the ascendant and houses. This gives an outside-in approach, observing the major themes before zeroing in on the finer details.

It is a terribly disheartening experience for anyone interested in astrology to be told that the cosmos has singled them out to never be able to learn any insight upon themselves, because they do not know the precise time that they were born. Also, without a thorough as possible consideration of the chart without a birth time, then how can it be determined what area of this chart is the most appropriate place to put the ascendant in relation to who that person is and the nature of their life, and a control birth time against which this can be compared?

Another thing that I consider is, even if a person does not know the time of birth, then they often know the general part fo the day they were born in. There are four pivotal moments in a twenty four hour period, dawn, noon, dusk and midnight. Many work with a noon chart for unknown birth time, but I find this quite arbitrary, it can get finer than this. I know my birth time, but sunset was the first of the four pivotal moments to occur after my birth, so I consider the sunset chart to be a secondary chart for me, and this is the secondary chart also of everyone who was born at the same location as me between noon and sunset, it isn't as fine tuned as a specific birth time, but it is certainly better than nothing. I would only use the noon chart had I been born before sunrise and noon, sunrise had I been born between midnight and dawn.

I will need to explain this further, but this method is a theory I have, not only for birth times that are not known, but I think that such charts make interesting comparison to the chart for the known birth time.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Claire wrote:
I dont even read a chart if the day is right and the time is not known within at least half an hour or so.
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I'm on your side of the fence, Claire. Even 5 mins. difference either way, and it happens more than one would expect, produces a different Ascendant/MC or house cusps, by which rulers' functions are expressed differently. An astrologer can then only give a 'general' planet in sign interpretation as there are too may 'ifs', 'buts' and 'ands' at stake to make a reading.....AND astrology AND the astrologer .... a reliable rather than a fuzzy source of information.

Draco replied:
This is a shame. Lately I have been thinking that it is very worthwhile, when looking at a persons chart, to first just look at a solar chart, and thouroughly consider the placement of the planets and the aspects between them, even before going on to consider the ascendant and houses. This gives an outside-in approach, observing the major themes before zeroing in on the finer details.
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What is the point of a solar chart, the idea of which is to place an experience (house) and function (planet) of life at the MOMENT OF THE SUN'S RETURN TO ITS NATAL POSITION pertaining to that year into the natal chart experience, if the correct birth time is unknown? All you are doing is taking and studying the transits for the day in question. Won't setting them against the natal chart influence produce the same results? Millions of people share the same birth date but the birth time is what produces the individual experience. The solar return can occur any time during the day before or day after birth, making a large difference in the placing/sign of moon and possible stations of planets. Which placings does one then decide upon for an accurate interpretation for the year without using ' if',' and', 'but' again?

It is a terribly disheartening experience for anyone interested in astrology to be told that the cosmos has singled them out to never be able to learn any insight upon themselves, because they do not know the precise time that they were born. Also, without a thorough as possible consideration of the chart without a birth time, then how can it be determined what area of this chart is the most appropriate place to put the ascendant in relation to who that person is and the nature of their life, and a control birth time against which this can be compared?
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A month or so back Tim made the inavaluable comment that the interpreter's view of how a chart expresses itself may not be the same as how the individual experiences it. Wouldn't this mean that you, as an astrologer, cannot define sufficiently and are, therefore, merely guessing for another how and what the manner (house) of his/her life experiences will be, in the attempt to attempt to ascertain a time of birth? On astrological internet there is someone who says to specialise in rectification, yet that same person has yet to determine their own time of birth :rolleyes:.

I would disagree that the lack of a birth time does not enable a person to gain insight into themeselves. It's the sign/planet/aspect combination that defines how character will be expressed and this can provide a lot of worthwhile information. Albeit the moon's sign may change during the day, the individual is usually aware in which manner their feelings show themselves.

F.
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Hi Frisiangal,

What is the point of a solar chart, the idea of which is to place an experience (house) and function (planet) of life at the MOMENT OF THE SUN'S RETURN TO ITS NATAL POSITION pertaining to that year into the natal chart experience, if the correct birth time is unknown?
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When I refered to a solar chart I didn't mean a solar return chart. I meant a solar chart as in using the first degree of the sign in which the sun is placed at birth. Then only the Moon might be a out. Looking at a chart in this way is a look at the individual only from a sun sin perspective as you are looking at the chart with the sun in always in the first, but it is better than nothing while the birh time is still to be decided upon.

I would disagree that the lack of a birth time does not enable a person to gain insight into themeselves.
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Sure, it's a shame not to study a chart at all due to no birth time. When the birth time is only roughly known, say, if it is a choice of two or three different ascendants, then whole sign houses can be used for each possible ascendant and it can be ascertained as to which is most appropriate for that individual, and then onto trying to find out the degree.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Draco said:
Hi Frisiangal,

When I refered to a solar chart I didn't mean a solar return chart. I meant a solar chart as in using the first degree of the sign in which the sun is placed at birth. Then only the Moon might be a out. Looking at a chart in this way is a look at the individual only from a sun sin perspective as you are looking at the chart with the sun in always in the first, but it is better than nothing while the birh time is still to be decided upon.
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Apologies for the misunderstanding. You mean interpretting a (natal) chart in the same manner as 'magazine' astrology, in which planets in signs are interpretted in the house pertaining to that sign's placing? Is that different to the 'whole house' method?

I don't know if it 'is better than nothing' but my own chart does show interesting correlations. I happen to know my 'approx.' birth time, which places my natal Sun firmly in the 9th house. I have Sagittarius I.C. and Jupiter in 12th square Sun. I have lived the majority of my life 'abroad' .... typical of a 9th house in Earth position? I was homesick for over 30 years. Putting Taurus as cusp of the 1st house means that Capricorn would be on the 9th cusp and my natal Moon is in Capricorn. What would you suggest to be the difference between both positions, considering the birth time refers to the Sun and the solar chart to the Moon?

F.
 
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Draco

Well-known member
:38: Lol.

maybe he will not pretend his copy/pasted words are his own... "the cut of the cloth."
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That's just so amusing, really.

In fact, I wasn't copying off Tom of Skyscript when I refer to the temperament as 'the cloth from which a person is cut', in fact, I am blatantly copying off John Frawley's phrase, because I think this is a very good way of putting it, so why not? The analogy would seem to be commonplace. That was on another thread anyway, it's actually a guideline on this forum to stay on topic.

I have asked Tom a few things in the past. I enjoy his posts and I find him quite informative. What's wrong with that? I certainly have never copy and pasted anyone else's comments from another forum, what a stupid thing that would be to do, they might see it. I can speak for myself.

You never did explain how you can ascertain a person's sexual persuasions from the nativity. Let's face it, that's why you've turned nasty, because I offered a counter argument to your claim that you can identify a person's sexual persusions in the horoscope, which I managed to do without being personally insulting toward anyone, and while you're obviously intelligent enough to have furthered the debate by posting a counter-argument to my post in the appropriate thread, you decided to corrupt this thread by squirting venom instead, and that makes you look quite bad. In fact this isn't the first time you have been blatantly insulting, including toward the chief moderator and the administrator.

Sorry Claire, to go off the topic of your thread yet again.

Another important fact is horary astrologers are all but useless when it comes to delineating a nativity because... And they never will understand how. Therefore, trying to learn natal astrology from horary astrologers would be akin to learning the parallel universe theory from a dry roast peanut.
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This might make an interesting topic for a new thread.

The shame here is, you could just have insulted me, but your comment indirectly insults others as well, which you might have thought about before your hasty post. I used to read your posts with interest, but you've shown yourself to be a nasty piece of work.

I don't even claim to be an astrologer, I'm an astrologist, but thanks for the compliment all the same.
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Hi Frisiangal,

Sorry about all that. :confused:

I don't know if it 'is better than nothing' but my own chart does show interesting correlations.
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How do you mean? Do you mean when you adjust your ascendant to 0.0 degrees of the sign in which your Sun is placed?

It's just that somebody mentioned this method to me, and I just thought it was worth trying.
 
unukalhai

unukalhai

Well-known member
A working knowledge of the motions related to a horoscope shows us which objects we can, and can not, pay attention to based upon the accuracy of a chart.

One can gain _alot_ of useful insight from a sunset or noon LMT chart, as long as one understands the position of the Moon and the houses are meaningless, and that inner solar system objects may be skewed by up to a full degree.

Certainly if a soul comes to me for help and isn't fortunate enough to know an exact birthtime, I won't tell them "sorry, your out of luck!" but rather exclude the potentially inaccurate objects from the chart. Much can be told without knowing house positions or the position of the Moon, and simply reducing the orb of the aspects by a single degree corrects for the potential skew of an unknown birthtime, if the day is known. Sure, it's not optimal, but countless times I've still been able to locate causes to match the effect without a birthtime, and thus have been able to render advice and guidance even without an exact time. Could my strong Virgo side do better with exactness? Sure. But my also-strong Scorpio side tell me to make like a soldier and make due with what I've got... The excessive need for perfection can be the core of anti-perfection.

Ask any amateur musician.. it's possible to pull off a good show even on poor equipment. The same goes for astrological research, given you know what to do and what to avoid, much in the same way as the challenged musician.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Draco said:
Hi Frisiangal,

F: I don't know if it 'is better than nothing' but my own chart does show interesting correlations
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How do you mean? Do you mean when you adjust your ascendant to 0.0 degrees of the sign in which your Sun is placed?
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Yes. Is that what you do? I also heard of 'whole sign astrology' and wondered if this is what the 'solar chart' refers to. In my case there IS a correlation of styles, as mentioned, but this may not apply to all people.
I wondered how, in my case, the interpretation emphasis would change using the 'solar chart' method.

F.
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Andonis

Andonis

Well-known member
I think I know my time of birth, but I am sure it is not perfect. I am supposed to have been born 14th Jan 1957 8am. I know on valentines day and at about 10am I hurt my knee skiing seriously and had to have an operation later this year. How do you use this info to improve the time of birth, using Astrodienst charts.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Andonis said:
I think I know my time of birth, but I am sure it is not perfect. I am supposed to have been born 14th Jan 1957 8am. I know on valentines day and at about 10am I hurt my knee skiing seriously and had to have an operation later this year. How do you use this info to improve the time of birth, using Astrodienst charts.
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This is purely hypothetical, Andonis, using the birth chart you supplied in the JC thread. Were you born in Andros, or relocated to live there?

This is the way my mind would work.
Snow and ice seem to apply to Saturn = chrystalisation of water, as does the knee region. Sudden and unexpected accidents bring Uranus to mind in context with Mars; physical ailments with the 6th house; operations to the 8th house. I'd expect to find these in relevant places in the chart.

The chart as it stands offers very little correlation with the skiing accident and its consequences this year. BUT, on the date of the accident, transiting retrograde Saturn was within orb of the conjunction to natal Uranus. If you put the Asc-Desc. axis forward so that Uranus is in the 6th house, it becomes ruler of the ascendant. Are you 'accident prone' in any way? Are sudden and unexpected events the rule rather than exception that define your life? The 8a.m chart places the Asc. in Capricorn.
On 14th Feb., the moon was transiting Virgo. With an Aquarius Ascendant this would place Cancer on 6th house cusp, Virgo on the 8th house cusp of (pending) operations (with transiting Moon in it), and Saturn would be ruler of Capricorn on 12th house cusp....hospitalisation.
Retro. Saturn made an exact conjunction with natal Uranus in early March and, having turned direct, again in mid-May. Do such times correspond to the time of your operation? Looking at Mars' position, that relates to cuts/knives etc., it was transiting Cancer in May, opposing natal (12th house?) Sun in the latter part of the month.

You might like to try a birth time of 20-30 mins. later to see if it correlates to other factors in your life. I work with placidus and find it very accurate, especially with transits/progressions over house cusps.

Just an idea.

F.
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Hi Fris,

I wondered how, in my case, the interpretation emphasis would change using the 'solar chart' method.
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It was just an idea I had, suggested to me by someone else on Skyscript, and not something I have explored deeply.

I just think that there are many methods worth exploring to consider a chart when the birth time is not known, and even those of us who do know our birth times, can sometimes benefit from exploring the bare bones of the chart, by just considering planets in signs and the aspects between them.

There are lots of ways of considering a chart without ascendants, and as Delboy pointed out in his post, in the earliest days they didn't consider the ascendant at all.

It's a shame not to consider a person's chart at all because of an unknown birth time.

Nice analysis up there by the way.
 
Claire19

Claire19

Well-known member
I agree if we have right day of birth often I can discern the ascendant after asking certain questions. No accurate analysis or prediction can be done ethically without Moon position or the right houses which the ascendant position gives even if we ignore the qualities of the rising sign. Ancient astrology may or may not have been accurate with varying methods. I have been in practise for 30 years and to gain accuracy otherwise there must be intuition or psychic influences at play which often happens of course. How can we possibly tell if it is the right time to buy a car if we dont know what is operating in the house concerned and the where the planets are transitting??? How can you discern someone's illness without the 6th house indications plus other house positions such as the 1st, for instance??? A solar chart may give some accuracy but not nearly what a rightly timed natal chart can do.

Claire
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Delboy.

I have waited for ages for a person with your knowledge and your perspective on astrology to come on to these forums to have interesting discussions with, and most of the things that you said in the above post I agree with entirely. It is, however, the attitude that you assume while making your points that it so disappointing, when you could be such an asset to this community.

It is not possible for you to raise your very reasonable points, without setting out to insult and belittle?

Your arguments, I am sure, could be persuasive rather than offensive. If there are those around here unfamiliar with ancient techniques, then how about introducing some and benefitting this community by sharing your knowledge?

If I received a report from a supposed astrologer with 30 years experience and their grammar was such that they think using three question marks to as a single question was the correct procedure, I would consider them very unprofessional.
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This has nothing to do with astrology, and highlights your intention to simply cause offence. Why do you presume that this poster would write to a client, and use three question marks? Obviously, this is for emphasis to express how intense her inquiry is. This is a friendly community, there is no requirement to use formal language, nor does the way in which a person's expression in words within this community necessarily reflect the way in which a person would communicate in a formal manner in their professional life.

As you are so quick to point out someone else's errors in the use of English:

...their grammar was such that they think using three question marks...
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It would be...their grammar was such that they thought that using three question marks....

Here we go again, poor manners and low etiquette.
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You're certainly one to be speaking of poor manners!

There are around a dozen methods I choose from when delineating a nativity with an inaccurate or unknown birth time.
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It would have been enormously interesting had you detailed these methods for the benefit of the those who are not aware of such techniques, and it could have settled the debate all together about a horoscope being of no use without a birth time. You could be such a valuable member of this community in light of the knowledge that you could share.

Any chance you could repeat this in english?
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I think what you meant was, 'Any chance you could repeat this in 'E'nglish?'!

Why do you think they are correctly termed 'secondary progressions?'
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If they are simply being referred to as 'progressions', it's usually obvious that this is a reference to secondary progressions, the most commonly used. You know this, but again you are trying to belittle.

Laziness and insufficient knowledge would be the correct answer.
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Perhaps, but again, maybe you could share some of your knowledge and benefit this community instead of gloating over those whose knowledge is less sufficient than your own.

Which brings us to the punch line of your post considering your own obvious linguistic errors:

:38:
The use of commas in a sentence helps the reader understand the phrasing, you cannot just stick them in willy-nilly as you have above because it makes that whole sentence nonsensical.
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
It appears that Delboy has been banned from participation on A.W, or was it just the most recent post?

For those who may not be familar with the name, 'Delboy' is a character in a long-run British T.V. sitcom 'Only Fools and Horses'. Is he the fool or the horse, 'our' Delboy ?;).

The problem I have always had, and also personally experienced, with attacks from astrologers who prefer the Traditional techniques, is that they consider such the only way to understand, let alone use, astrological symbology. It's similar to saying that to reach point B from point A can and must only be done by the wheel because it was the first invention that enabled mobility. I have great difficulty understanding this when I look up and see a 747 flying overhead or QM2 sailing past along the coast. Techniques change, progress and improve, and because anyone drawn towards astrology fails to use one style yet finds accuracy in another, does not mean that either has 'precedence' but only 'preference' over the other. Surely such can be found in a natal chart; the strength of Saturn or Uranus? Judging another's techniques from one's own is not being open-minded; explaining the difference so that a person can make up their own mind, is.

If Delboy is man enough to offer an apology for his personal outburst towards another, he will hopefully be removed from the banned list to, as Draco said, inform and teach us all of his expertise in traditional techniques, especially regarding what to do with those renegades Uranus and Neptune. From the traditional perspective, he's probably relieved that he can forget about 'banned' Pluto.:D.

F.
 
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Draco

Well-known member
It turns out that Radu has been good enough to lift the temporary ban imposed on Delboy during his absence.

Delboys scathing attack casts those pursuaded by traditional methods in a poor light. I myself, as you may be aware, am very interested in ancient and medieval perspectives, and I will partake of some strongly worded debates at times, I find it enjoyable when a debate is particularly intense, and yet no matter how vehemently I may express my views, I believe I manage to do this without descending to the level of plain insults.

It isn't just those who take a traditional approach that can be so condescending mind you. There have been occasions where I have put forth a traditional perspective on things, and as a debate ensues there are those that have resorted to slinging mud at me where a well reasoned argument would have better represented them and their supporters.

When an attack is particularly wounding, I find that it cheers me up immensely, because it serves to demonstrate quite clearly that the one who delivers such attacks hasn't a single rational argument left. Delboy's posts to Claire and myself on this thread serve as a good example. In fact the spite behind the post to me was originated in another thread, where I contest Delboy's implication that the way in which a persons sexuality is directed can be discerned from the moment of birth. This may or may not be the case, but he was unable to offer a counter-argument to the one that I proposed, nor did he demonstrate how analysis of the 'energy release patterns' of a chart will indicate that a person is, and always would have been, a lesbian. Consequently, I suffered a lashing on this thread instead, for no apparent reason. Like I said, when it descends to insults, the offending party has no rational argument left, it is their proclamation that they have lost the debate.

It remains to be seen whether Delboy will return to offer an apology, and personally, I hope that he does, so that he can enlighten us with the traditional knowledge that he is so replete with, but as yet has failed to demonstrate.
 
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