So how do you handle aphorisms?

Bunraku

Well-known member
If I even look at them - "spirit of the law".

I think it’s just perplexing. Some words aren’t one on one translations. For example you have words like “mathematician” to actually mean an astrologer. Who would have thought that unless you had a scholar or history fanatic with you.

Liber Tertius 83
Mars on the ascendant by day makes men bold, clever, emotional; wanderers, unstable in every way; never able to complete what they propose; whatever they undertake flows from their hands and their inheritance is wasted. They also lose their whole livelihood, their wives and children; nothing is saved from their paternal inheritance which they lose at an early age.

Mars on the ASC for example. The spirit of the message is most likely that this person likely makes rash and unwise decisions. Why was it written like this again? To preserve it throughout history?

If Saturn is in this house[7th] in an evening rising, he makes boils around the anus and hemorrhoids, especially if Mars is in aspect. The natives are rheumatic and often have abscesses. They are always grieved by the very painful condition of their wives.

Okay this is not even remotely aphoristic. Unless he meant pain in the butt :lol:
 
Last edited:

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Reminds me when I used to tease my brother of being a grave robber, many moon ago.

I can wager that most of those with Sun prominent and relevant to profession aren't goldsmiths.

Saturn - anal retentive? The moderns might agree with that one.

I rarely internalize aphorisms, and memorising aspect descriptions is not my way of engaging with astrology.

For example you have words like “mathematician” to actually mean an astrologer. Who would have thought that unless you had a scholar or history fanatic with you.

Yeah, the language and cultural difference of the times can trip up "casuals" - being bookish (or some sort of scholar/history fanatic) helps. Perhaps why traditional is written off as antiquated ******** by it's critics.
 
Last edited:

Bunraku

Well-known member
A lot of these planet descriptors apply to a very different society, so it’s even more confusing trying to apply them today.

“JupiterASC" said:
18. Saturn in the ninth house will make famous magicians, renowned philosophers, or temple priests noted for their reputation for magic. According to the nature of the signs he also makes seers, diviners, and astrologers. These are always outstanding in their responses. Some carry on the rites of tempIes or are in charge of rituals. Sometimes they become long-haired philosophers or interpreters of dreams.
“JupiterASC" said:
19. Saturn in this house by night indicates wrath of the gods and hatred of emperors, especially if the waning Moon is moving toward him in any way. But greater evils are predicted from gods and emperors if
Mars from any direction is in aspect to Saturn and the Moon.

“JupiterASC" said:
Venus in the third house is favorable ifJupiter is in any aspect. She predicts a wife from a temple, a priestess or the daughter of a priest. If

Mercury is with Venus the natives themselves will be prophets, temple attendants, or in charge of rituals.
Not many societies are directly Greek-pagan with elaborate rituals, customs, or hierarchies with their worldview or philosophy. I mean their cultures live on but in a very distilled manner, but talking about visiting a local temple like it’s a nightclub or pub everyone just goes to and meet people and get married there? :lol:
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
Before I get criticized accusing that this is a christian work:
Theodor Mommsen[12] has shown that the Mathesis was composed in the year 336 and not in 354 as was formerly held, thus making it an earlier work than De errore profanarum religionum; modern readers who find astrology incompatible with Early Christianity[13] argue that it would have been written prior to Firmicus' conversion to Christianity.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Hey, in 2020 people still go to church to meet their future spouses so we have that in common with the ancients.

Funny contradiction there with Saturn in the 9th. On the one hand it denotes eminent philosophers, magicians and priests. On the other hand it denotes the wrath of the Gods. Sect matters in these delineations of course, but it reminds me of the fact that Gauquelin found the prominence of Saturn in the charts of scientists and I think the role that magicians/philosophers played in those times are being played by the scientists - repositories of prohibitive knowledge that could be used for the betterment or exploitation of the world - whether natural or "human". At the very least the myths attached to the modern day scientist aren't all that different from the magus of antiquity.

Also brings to mind this astrological series of belief over at 7 stars.
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/astrology-religion-atheism-belief-1-technique-james-randi/
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
I understand your point, but x. That’s where I start to doubt whether they were “scientists” or not or if it is appropriate to use/equate that term. That was called natural philosophy back in the day, and I don’t think they were that keen on scientific experimentation...because if they did experiment they’d know a lot of their ideas are BS :lol:. Inventions did happen, but I felt like they would’ve hired people to create things for the purpose of making life easier rather than assigning it to the priesthood and diluting the role of a priest.

Priests played an important role in the sense as guidance or advisors to kings or emperors— their thing was literally consulting the gods or to elevate others in their own exclusive or secretive groups. As of course the magic and divination thing mentioned in the interpretation. And if they’re corrupt getting a slice of the pie. Some kings are also symbolically the head of the religion, as some cultures believed only the ascended could rule.

The way the religion operated... it loved to hoard knowledge for the sake of their in-groups. The out-group got scraps, probably. This is very opposite to science, where information is meant to be free and for everyone.

Saturn represents skepticism, and maybe atheism, so probably the lack of belief made a person turn to other methods for answers based on their world view. But this is my modern interpretation. My modern self has internet, is literate, and is biased.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Bunraku, with respect, the Hellenist astrologers were not writing for you. Neither were the classicists who translated their work. They were writing for other astrologers and classicists, respectively.

Andrea Gehrz has published some translations of Vettius Valens that you might find more accessible. However, she's been criticized for being less faithful to the original texts.

Back in Antiquity, a real astrologer had to know a lot of mathematics to calculate a horoscope. (Sometime try to construct a chart by hand.) The name "mathematician" probably distinguished him from a street-fair fortune-teller.

I recommend that you up your game if you are serious about reading original texts in translation.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
Bunraku, with respect, the Hellenist astrologers were not writing for you. Neither were the classicists who translated their work. They were writing for other astrologers and classicists, respectively.

Andrea Gehrz has published some translations of Vettius Valens that you might find more accessible. However, she's been criticized for being less faithful to the original texts.

Back in Antiquity, a real astrologer had to know a lot of mathematics to calculate a horoscope. (Sometime try to construct a chart by hand.) The name "mathematician" probably distinguished him from a street-fair fortune-teller.

I recommend that you up your game if you are serious about reading original texts in translation.

Waybread, if their cultures were any indications of how they would’ve treated us we were probably left out and jut forced to be inside the house and doing domestic tasks. :lol: Of course it wasn’t written for people like us.

Too bad they didn’t predict the advent of this forum. I wish They would’ve written for the users of this forum since is one of the last avenues for any type of astrological discourse with a large userbase other than tiktok or astrology groups/conventions held in far away and obscure places. Instead they didn’t and now it’s just obscure nonsense about slaves and wedding off their daughters.

If you recommend me Gherz translations, then it can’t be that serious. I’ve read some of her editions, and it’s clear that sometimes she probably didn’t even know what she was translating.
 
Last edited:

petosiris

Banned
DO you interpret them literally or figuratively?

They were to be interpret literally, but in relation to the whole chart (Firmicus rehearses this a lot), so that you can do both astounding hits and cover up astounding misses.

P.S. Most of the pagan nations had laws and taboos against sexual immoralities, adulteries and sorceries (all of the astrologers do). It is not a unique Judeo-Christian thing.
 
Last edited:

Bunraku

Well-known member
They were to be interpret literally, but in relation to the whole chart (Firmicus rehearses this a lot), so that you can do both astounding hits and cover up astounding misses.

Wow really?
What’s up with people saying they’re figurative then?

I never expected it to be this literal.
 

petosiris

Banned
Wow really?
What’s up with people saying they’re figurative then?

I never expected it to be this literal.

As waybread said, they were written for astrologers, and for them it would be very handy to have all bases with details covered.

It is what it is.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
Oh so astrology was a super exclusive men’s club then :lol:

So is it applicable to the charts of today? It seems to be very specific to the customs back then if the interpretations are meant to be taken literally
 

waybread

Well-known member
Bunraku, just to get to your basic question:

Some traditional astrologers will say that we have to interpret the old traditional texts more liberally and generally.

However, I have yet to come across one of the old authors himself who said this. And some of their delineations are pretty extreme: marrying off one's daughter would be astrology-lite in comparison with their delineating someone with Saturn opposite Mars as a depraved temple robber.

One thing that we get only obliquely from those old texts is that there was a popular astrology for the masses. Astrologers showed up at street fairs, to the horror of the more scholarly types like Valens and Ptolemy. We don't know much about what the non-literary astrologers practiced because they didn't write books; or at least no books that survived from Antiquity.

Are you familiar with Chris Brennan's website, podcasts and book Hellenistic Astrology? Recommended.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Science as contemporarily understood, admired and practiced didn't start to take shape until the 1800s, but I don't think the comparison is out of line.

In the time of the hellenistic period and late antiquity when these good folks were writing and doing astrology, it was common to find the same person studying metaphysics and theurgical alongside the more traditional scientific disciplines (or the precursors). Proclus, Plotinus and Iamblichus are examples.

Although the influences of natural philosophy stretch back to the pre-socratic philosophers, natural philosophy seemed to be a more recent development in Medieval and Renaissance times. Natural history, it's counterpoint, is also important in the history of science, and it is within that field of knowledge where you find the more observational fields of study. We also know that science doesn't automatically lead to technology/technical innovation, even in the modern day. Hell, it's stated that it takes an average of 17 years from basic biomedical research to clinical practice - and this is for the sort of research that can actually be converted to something of practical value.

I think that the idea that science should result in greater ease and standards of living, and that such a pursuit should take primacy, is modern and commercially minded.

I don't think that religion has the premium on control and embargo on doctrine/knowledge. One could find the same in the scientific sphere, or more specifically at the intersection of science, politics, commerce and law.

But, traditional astrology still bunches up religion, science and philosophy in the 9th so there is a astrological basis for the grouping. I would view theurgical practices as being 9th house as well, as opposed to goety which is what I think the traditional astrologers were referring to when they placed "magic" in the 12th house.
 
Last edited:

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I just saw that link. How do you feel it plays out in your chart?

A quick rundown would be:

Jupiter - strongly advancing, 1st house, in sect, making a phasis, natural benefic, in a good place

Saturn - stationary direct, in a stake of the chart, in sect, naturally malefic, in a good place.

Merc - in the 1st house, retreating, in a good place.

9th house - ruled by Sun, 12th part of Jupiter located in the house.

Mars is also located in the 1st house and strongly advancing, adding a contentious nature to house of self and has direct bearing on Jupiter and Mercury.

So in keeping with the terms outlined in the article, I would identify with both spirituality and intellectualism. There is a heavy dose of doubt as well. And there is a proclivity for conflict or contrariness with regard to matters of mentation and spirit. Jupiter's pervasive influence means that spirituality has the upper hand.

Schopenhauer and Rudolf Steiner are interesting examples to see in view of this technique
 
Last edited:

Bunraku

Well-known member
Try another method. As was outlined by Ptolemy-lite in a heavily christian europe, where there was only one religion or any other option was death :lol:

of Firm Faith

  • *The 9th house, its lord, the almuten
    *The lot of faith and its lord, and the third and its lord

    *If Saturn is with them [as in victor of the places], free of impediments, or Jupiter or Mars, and these were free without impediments,

    *The native will be a devout worshipper of one faith.**

    *The lord of the triplicity of the lot of faith shows which period in life you will have better faith.

    *If Mercury is in the 8th or the Lot of Faith was impeded shows faithlessness.

    Other considerations:
    *If the 9th house lord was impeded, then the native will be of bad faith, pretending, and mixing beliefs.
    *If the victor over it is Merc. and it is agreeable to the lord to the ASC then the native will be disputing them.
    *If Mercury is fortunate and eastern, he will gain praise from this. If impeded and western, negative generic omen will occur.

**Needs to be modernized?
A fortunate planet in the house will have the affairs rendered fortunate. Same thing if a malefic, Unfortunate -> unfortunate, etc.

I think your lot is in 5º Libra.
Almuten of the Sun is Jupiter.
Lord&Almuten of 9th is Sun
Lord of the Lot is Venus.
3rd Lord is Saturn.

Lord of the triplicity of the lot:

In case you need this: Almuten of the Lot is Merc. Almuten of the 3rd house Lord is Venus.




As a side note:
And these authors are in DIRE need of editors WTF? If we invent time travel that will be the first order of business.
And I cannot ******* read the square charts!! It’s so hideous and unreadable.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Before I proceed, what's your opinion on using the 12th parts with this technique? There would be a major alteration in delineation if the 12th parts are added.
 
Top