He passed away, but how did he feel about me?

fezuda

Active member
BACKGROUND

Last year, I lost a special friend who had been important throughout my life, from my childhood (when I randomly found his travel blog online) to my adulthood (turns out I lost my virginity to him). He was 9 years older than me. We lived in different continents. He was a big inspiration and meeting him influenced my life decisions (I moved abroad when I was 17). We remained pen pals for +15 years and we would meet during our travels. Sometimes, almost accidentally!

We spent my 29th birthday together in Hong Kong last year. It was amazing. However, for the first time I realized I was developing real feelings towards him. I experienced a lot of emotional confusion during the days we were together, and it was painful. Sometimes I had the feeling he was not very invested, but then he would insist on doing everything together. Some of my deepest insecurities surfaced and I was unable to understand my own emotional reactions. I was hurting. Towards the end of the trip, while we were sightseeing, I decided to let him go, to let everything go. After a cold goodbye, I turned my back and left abruptly. That night, I decided I was going to put an end to something that had no future – in other words, I had to take him out of my life.

My plans of never speaking to him again failed completed because I could not stand the fact that I might never see him again. So the next morning, on my way to the airport, I stopped by his place with a big “I am sorry” breakfast. And I am glad I did so: only 2 weeks after we said goodbye, I found out through Facebook that he had passed away during his sleep. Turns out he had an undiagnosed heart condition.

This was a long intro, but since then, given everything that happened I can’t help but wonder: « how did he feel about me?”. I know for a fact that I fell for him during our last trip together. And I fell completely. I still feel guilty for some of my behavior, and also still feel upset at him for some of his behavior. I wonder if there was any reciprocity from him in terms of romantic feelings.

INTERPRETATION

The hour ruler is the same as the ascendant ruler, so I believe this means the chart raised is valid.

With Aquarius rising, the horary chart indicates Saturn is my significator.

Saturn is domiciled in Aquarius. Interestingly, I was celebrating my Saturn return when I last met him. Despite feeling so emotionally attached I remember clearly telling myself that I should no longer waste my time with « flings » - very Saturnian of me. Aquarius rising also seems interesting because this last time we met, I decided not to stay with him at his hotel despite his multiple invites; I wanted to give him space and freedom to do his own things. Above all, I wanted it to be my birthday trip, not a « couple » trip. I didn’t want him to shift the focus and purpose of my trip (even though I later regretted not spending more time with him).

Saturn is in the 12th house. I can think of the following interpretations:

1- this indicates that our « relationship » was not official (which is unquestionable) and that in some ways it was « hidden » or platonic.

2- this speaks about my emotional state back then - extremely confused and emotive, unable to make a proper judgment about the situation we were in. But highly sensitive as well, as I not only changed my mind last minute but also told him everything he had meant in my life, how grateful I was, and how I would always remember him smiling with his eyes (which in this context is surprising, as I obviously did not know he would die weeks later)

3- this speaks about my emotional state now – his passing was a big slap on my face that put my entire life in perspective. Most of the time I am ok, but sometimes sadness comes in waves and there are other issues affecting my well-being too, including being confined due to the pandemic (12th house again!)

Saturn and moon (co-significator) are both in very early degrees (0-1 degrees). Saturn is also retrograde.

The horary chart indicates his significator is the Sun.

The Sun is in Gemini - as a Leo with moon in Gemini, he was naturally restless but particularly so while we were in HK. It was very hard to cope with his « scattered » mind.

Sun in the 5th house = his mind was probably in love affairs, having fun, enjoying life as a bachelor, which makes sense as he had an active Tinder profile at the time (before HK, he was traveling solo in China). Although if we flip the chart it would be in his 11th house, the house of friendships and networks. He tried to connect with some old friends while in Hong Kong but it did not work.

No aspects or reception between our significators. I noticed however that both our significators are in aspect to Venus (wide orb of 8-9 degrees), which is the slowest of the three: Sun conjuncts Venus and Saturn trines Venus. I was trying to understand if there would be collection of light through Venus here, since Saturn is in the face of Venus and the Sun is in the term of Venus (I think!). But I am not sure if I looked at the dignities correctly. However, when this ‘collection’ possibility came up, the first person that came to my mind was his older brother. I had never met him in my life, but he reached out to me surprisingly after my friend’s passing and asked me to attend the funeral. He picked me up at the airport, offered his shoulder to cry on and was extremely caring (just like his brother), all of this while mourning the loss of his own brother. He took me to see the body, the house he grew up in, his messy bedroom that remained intact since he was found with no life. He said I was special to my friend, but I still found it hard to believe. Venus rules the 3rd house of the 7th, interestingly.

I was also wondering if Venus, here, could represent a third person and another romantic affair of my friend given the conjunction with the Sun, albeit separating. After his passing, I met a lady who claimed to have been seeing/dating him for more than a year in his home country. They “broke up” before his travels and apparently reconnected when he returned home. She then found out he had started to “see” someone else, another lady who also attended his funeral - I let you imagine how interesting this funeral was! :biggrin: surprisingly too, that same lady asked for my WhatsApp right after the funeral and we remained in touch. She opened up to me, exposed her intimacy, fragility, sadness... and as a result I had to completely suppress my own romantic feelings toward him, as I did not want her to find out that I had lived an affair with him too. This is also something I feel guilty about: hiding the truth from her while she confided in me.

I still can’t make a view about this chart. Since there are no mutual reception between our significators, my first guess is that there was no romantic feeling. But sun is in 5th house, perhaps he saw me as someone he could have a good time with. I would appreciate any views on my analysis as I am still learning – thank you!
 

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ameliaastrology

Well-known member
I too failed to see any romantic feelings, but he did love you as a friend. William Lilly wants us to observe the condition of House 3, House 7 and House 11 to decide if someone loves us (not just romantically). Lord 11 of friendship Jupiter has been close to Saturn; they've been going back and forth together for a while now. Saturn is cold (is that you?), but Jupiter this friendship can take some ice off Saturn, being Saturn's natural friend.

Sun also beholds ascendant closely, with a trine.

So there is a warm connection.

Sun in an airy sign near cusp 5 - he did not take any affair quite seriously. Gemini - in two minds.

Ascendant, Moon and Saturn are all in Aquarius. Blurred boundaries.

You in House 12 is fitting. There were so many things you didn't know, hidden to you. Even your deeper feelings had been unconscious for a while.

Humble advice: next time you didn't have to give so many details. :pouty: A brief background will do. A good astrologer should be able to tell all these dynamics from the chart or else they're no good for you.

Amelia
 

fezuda

Active member
Thank you Amelia, appreciate your feedback and especially the insight on Jupiter as ruler of the 11th.

Indeed, I should avoid providing so much detail. Was trying to link what I saw in the chart with what happened!

Do you think Venus is relevant at all in this chart? I wonder if there is a «*collection*» or not (the concept is new to me).

Thanks
Fernanda
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

Thank you for providing a detailed background, which is always good to have in Horary (unless the horary is about a guessing game - which in itself would render it unfit and frivolous - as no pressing need).

In my opinion, he most certainly had some romantic feelings for you, which would just about be enough for an affair. He did like being around you. Notice the Sun (him) is in the 5th house of romantic affairs. Saturn (you) is in the 12th of the chart reflecting your insecurities and disillusionment.

Moons's last aspect was with Jup (ruler of his 5th house, and chart's 11th house of friendship), but then it changed signs = change of situation.

Notice also how Sun's last aspect was with Mars (heart palpitations, a racing heart, high BP...). Mars was in Pisces and the condition, as you said, was "undiagnosed". The aspect was a square and took his life.
 
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Ouranos

Well-known member
Hello Aquarius,
I think it did show some common ground but more like sharing of the mind, brothers and sisters soulmates.
SaturnL1 in the bound of Mercury, Moon (co-ruler) in the bound and triplicity of Mercury
Mercury ruling his SunL1 on the cusp of the 5th in Gemini and Mercury being received by the Moon, your co-ruler.

Looking at the Parts, we find the Part of Death at 12Pis40 conjunct 2ndH (his 8th) at 12Pis11 with Mars conjunct Neptune squaring his SunL1 in his 8th. According to Ptolemy's calculation, Mars would be the Hyleg or the giver of life being endangered here.

Blessings,
Ouranos
 

ameliaastrology

Well-known member
Thank you Amelia, appreciate your feedback and especially the insight on Jupiter as ruler of the 11th.

Indeed, I should avoid providing so much detail. Was trying to link what I saw in the chart with what happened!

Do you think Venus is relevant at all in this chart? I wonder if there is a «*collection*» or not (the concept is new to me).

Thanks
Fernanda

Hi Fernanda,

I see what you mean - Venus' last aspect was with the sun and it's reaching out to Saturn. But Venus never gets to perfect the aspect with Saturn. It will become stationary at around 5" and then go direct. So no, it doesn't effect a translation of light. And in any case this is a future aspect, and we're dealing with the past, so I'm not sure how much it helps.

I actually enjoyed reading your delineation. As Aquarius said, a bit of context is always helpful. I just thought it might be nice to avoid too much confirmation bias. Ideally, I'd observe the relationship dynamics and the Querent would confirm it, and in the back and forth she'd see that I didn't just confirm everything she told me, and she'd have more faith, then, in the final judgment. We'd both be satisfied that we really got it right with this chart. I didn't mean to belittle your effort, and thank you for the trust you place in us.

Amelia
 

rafaella

Well-known member
First of all, sorry for your loss. I can empathise, I went through something similar last year as well, death of a dear friend.

I would take this man to be Jupiter, just by looking at past Moon aspects. Moon separating from Jupiter shows what was recent. Jupiter is in detriment, retrograde in 12th conjunct Pluto. Jupiter is sign of Saturn, shows he did care for you, but may not have expressed it and was not in position to. 12th is something that is hidden. Moon is his death, rules 8th from 11th house.

Also Jupiter being in the shape that its in, plus being in cold/dry sign very different to its nature and 12th house, suggests tings were not very good health wise, and it was unknown. Moon also ruler of 6th house in the chart.

I hope you are feeling better after all that heartache and I wish you well! take care
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
So sorry for your loss. It must have been terrible for you to receive such news, and thank heavens you did go back the next day so you will always have that last memory.
It teaches us that when we love someone, we should express it while they are with us, for both of us, and not set it back for some future time.
Moon as the question will conjunct Saturn retrograde, so I would say that yes, he did care for you very much, but it was all in the 12th house of hidden matters, and in an air sign that takes an intellectual approach rather than an emotional one, to matters of the heart.
He as sun in your 5th also confirms his feelings, although again in an air sign it was all in a detached way. Sun exactly trines you the ascendent, another confirmation.
Sun separating the square with mars, and approaching square with Neptune in his 8th shows he was stressed, and this led to his heart (sun) giving way.
Note that Jupiter and moon straddle the south node, so there was a karmic side to your relationship. I would imagine you haven't seen the last of each other.
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I take this man to be 7th because even though Fezuda called him a friend in the initial part of her narration, clearly he evolved into a love interest and since the querent is Fezuda, we need to see the man from Fezuda's perspective. Given he is, via the 7th, the Sun, look at Sun's placement. There is nothing brotherly there. The rest is in my previous post :) But good to know your thoughts.

Hello Aquarius,
I think it did show some common ground but more like sharing of the mind, brothers and sisters soulmates.
SaturnL1 in the bound of Mercury, Moon (co-ruler) in the bound and triplicity of Mercury
Mercury ruling his SunL1 on the cusp of the 5th in Gemini and Mercury being received by the Moon, your co-ruler.

Looking at the Parts, we find the Part of Death at 12Pis40 conjunct 2ndH (his 8th) at 12Pis11 with Mars conjunct Neptune squaring his SunL1 in his 8th. According to Ptolemy's calculation, Mars would be the Hyleg or the giver of life being endangered here.

Blessings,
Ouranos
 

fezuda

Active member
Thanks, everyone, so many different perspectives on this chart… I really appreciate your insights!

Hi Fernanda,
I see what you mean - Venus' last aspect was with the sun and it's reaching out to Saturn. But Venus never gets to perfect the aspect with Saturn. It will become stationary at around 5" and then go direct. So no, it doesn't effect a translation of light. And in any case this is a future aspect, and we're dealing with the past, so I'm not sure how much it helps.

I actually enjoyed reading your delineation. As Aquarius said, a bit of context is always helpful. I just thought it might be nice to avoid too much confirmation bias. Ideally, I'd observe the relationship dynamics and the Querent would confirm it, and in the back and forth she'd see that I didn't just confirm everything she told me, and she'd have more faith, then, in the final judgment. We'd both be satisfied that we really got it right with this chart. I didn't mean to belittle your effort, and thank you for the trust you place in us.

Amelia

Thanks for clarifying my doubt! And please don’t worry I understood what you meant when you suggested not providing so much details, but just a bit of context, to avoid biased judgment (I totally agree with you!). I will certainly keep this in mind for the future.

Hi,
Thank you for providing a detailed background, which is always good to have in Horary (unless the horary is about a guessing - which in itself would reder it unfit and frivolous - as no pressing need).

In my opinion, he most certainly had some romantic feelings for you, which would just about be enough for an affair. He did like being around you. Notice the Sun (him) is in the 5th house of romantic affairs. Saturn (you) is in the 12th of the chart reflecting your insecurities and disillusionment.

Moons's last aspect was with Jup (ruler of his 5th house, and chart's 11th house of friendship), but then it changed signs = change of situation.
Notice also how Sun's last aspect was with Mars (heart palpitations, a racing heart, high BP...). Mars was in Pisces and the condition, as you said, was "undiagnosed". The aspect was a square and took his life.

Interesting comment about Mars, I hadn’t thought about it. Not only his heart condition was undiagnosed, but it took the doctors 2 or 3 months to get to a conclusion about his death. The reasons of his passing remained unknown for a very long time! What triggered his death was a flu/fever that put a lot of stress on his heart, in addition to being sleep deprived for weeks in a row. He suffered from coronary artery sclerosis, which combined with this extra stress, generated very severe arrhythmia and led to his death.

Hello Aquarius,
I think it did show some common ground but more like sharing of the mind, brothers and sisters soulmates.

SaturnL1 in the bound of Mercury, Moon (co-ruler) in the bound and triplicity of Mercury

Mercury ruling his SunL1 on the cusp of the 5th in Gemini and Mercury being received by the Moon, your co-ruler.

Looking at the Parts, we find the Part of Death at 12Pis40 conjunct 2ndH (his 8th) at 12Pis11 with Mars conjunct Neptune squaring his SunL1 in his 8th.
According to Ptolemy's calculation, Mars would be the Hyleg or the giver of life being endangered here.

Blessings,

Ouranos

Thank you Ouranos. We did have a lot of common interests, in fact it was our common passion for traveling, meeting people and learning foreign language that brought us together. I randomly found him online after ‘googling’ about a specific travel destination when I was 12-13. His travel adventures had a big effect on a girl who also dreamed about exploring the world. While I did not see him as a ‘big brother’, he was certainly someone I would look up to since those early days and given our age difference. Like a role model.
Interesting to see all these connections between Part of Death and Mars/Neptune/Cusp of his 8th house. If Mars is Hyleg and is conjunct Neptune, it seems to fit well the context in which he died – going to bed for a nap, falling asleep, and not waking up. He died a week before his 38th birthday.

First of all, sorry for your loss. I can empathise, I went through something similar last year as well, death of a dear friend.

I would take this man to be Jupiter, just by looking at past Moon aspects. Moon separating from Jupiter shows what was recent. Jupiter is in detriment, retrograde in 12th conjunct Pluto. Jupiter is sign of Saturn, shows he did care for you, but may not have expressed it and was not in position to. 12th is something that is hidden. Moon is his death, rules 8th from 11th house.

Also Jupiter being in the shape that its in, plus being in cold/dry sign very different to its nature and 12th house, suggests tings were not very good health wise, and it was unknown. Moon also ruler of 6th house in the chart.

I hope you are feeling better after all that heartache and I wish you well! take care

Thank you for your kind words Rafaella, and I am also sorry to hear you went through the loss of a close friend recently. Hope you're coping well.

Interesting that you consider him as being Jupiter, ruler of the 11th in this chart. I am also confused if I should consider him to be the ruler of the 11th or the 7th. We had a long-lasting friendship, but I started feeling romantic about him in this last trip – having an angular Uranus on my 7th, the boundaries between friendship/romance often get blurred. Regardless of a romantic connection or not, I loved him and miss him for who he was and the good he did to me.

So sorry for your loss. It must have been terrible for you to receive such news, and thank heavens you did go back the next day so you will always have that last memory.

It teaches us that when we love someone, we should express it while they are with us, for both of us, and not set it back for some future time.
Moon as the question will conjunct Saturn retrograde, so I would say that yes, he did care for you very much, but it was all in the 12th house of hidden matters, and in an air sign that takes an intellectual approach rather than an emotional one, to matters of the heart.

He as sun in your 5th also confirms his feelings, although again in an air sign it was all in a detached way. Sun exactly trines you the ascendent, another confirmation.

Sun separating the square with mars, and approaching square with Neptune in his 8th shows he was stressed, and this led to his heart (sun) giving way.
Note that Jupiter and moon straddle the south node, so there was a karmic side to your relationship. I would imagine you haven't seen the last of each other.

You’re absolutely right. I feel so relieved I got to tell him a proper goodbye. Some people at the funeral regretted having declined his invitations to surf, to have lunch, etc. in their last interaction. But I felt so at peace knowing he had lived life to the fullest and that I had had the chance to make up with him and tell him how grateful I was before we both left Hong Kong.

He was stressed indeed – in addition to the points mentioned above (he was sick/had a flu and fever), he was also tired and sleep deprived, and stressed about some major issues in his business.

On the karmic aspect, I sometimes struggle to believe how this friendship originated, survived and evolved, defeating all odds. Among other things, we have an exact conjunction between my sun and his north node. My south node is also conjunct his north node. Without further details, let’s say he acted as a “propeller” in my life in many ways and helped me develop my self-esteem and define my life path. Now that he is gone, I really feel I need to focus on the important lessons he taught me as I continue moving forward.
 
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