Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Astrology and Psychology

Astrology and Psychology For interesting discussions on psychological meanings and deeper implications in natal charts between members passionated by both psychology and astrology.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Unread 11-20-2020, 09:12 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dairyland
Posts: 2,086
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post

But my thought is that Uranus would be accentuated in most or maybe all cases. What better way to suggest there's something markedly atypical about this person?


Something I have noticed is that in those cases, more often than not, there's a Uranus/Sun aspect.
This is in the chart of Evan McCarthy that Leo Moon provided.
As it didn't show the aspects that have been observed to be linked to an Autism diagnosis, it raised my eyebrows.
A Google search showed articles in which she fought against the idea that he was misdiagnosed.
A further unaspected Sun-Uranus, plus Moon-Neptune, Mercury-Saturn-Pluto? Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 11-21-2020, 09:59 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dairyland
Posts: 2,086
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanae414 View Post
My boyfriend is asperger, I have ADHD.
Sorry, I missed your post sent just before mine.

The chart would seem to be a perfect example of how astro. aspects can correspond to the mental development issue experienced.

It is interesting that Moon is not adversely linked to the Mercury-Saturn in 6th house opp.Uranus, yet that a Pluto link to Asperger's does play a dominant role via the T-square. With the Mars-Jupiter links and Neptune prominent , almost ADD-ADHD .... plus.

I only have 1 other chart for 1966 (undiagnosed autism at the time).

A's chart only provides lat. and long. for place of birth. Would you be willing to share (privately?) town and country. (Also your own data?)

Many thanks for sharing.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 11-21-2020, 10:07 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dairyland
Posts: 2,086
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by applesandlilacs View Post
Looking through I see Autism with other neurodivergent(s). A third of those with Autism will have comorbidity. I would take an educated guess and say that some of this third was probably also misdiagnosed at first, if not more.

So, where would aspects overlap behavioral profiles?

And, where do they fit on the spectrum?

And, what area does it effect the most?

These are the areas looked at:

Sensory Processing
Information Processing
Language and Development
Memory
Attention Regulation
Emotional Regulation

Are you referring to astro. aspects here?

Quote:
I was also wonder if a midpoint chart would be important given that autism is about too much or too little. Maybe a midpoint chart would show high concentrations or a lack thereof? Just a thought.
Perhaps member Cary is the person to approach here, who says to work with midpoints.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 11-21-2020, 02:37 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Are you referring to astro. aspects here?



Perhaps member Cary is the person to approach here, who says to work with midpoints.
I have not contributed because I have doubts about the conflicting doctrines concerning the topic of ASD and other similar things like ADHD.

My mother was a psychotherapist, and my experience with her left me with considerable distrust of the entire field of so-called psychological research.

I have considerable doubt that so-called "disorders" are provably pathological. They are far more arbitrary than scientific. Sam Vaknin has also expressed similar conclusions.

Vaknin is a polymath with multiple degrees who is recognized as an influencial psychologist and author who is especially forthcoming about narcissism and psychopathy. Vaknin has expressed similar concerns to mine about so-called disorders.

Vaknin reveals that the much-quoted DSM was invented by the profession to act as a manual for insurance firms to guide them in their estimations of treatment costs and reimbursements for such costs. In doing so, he points out that the DSM is seriously flawed as a diagnostic tool.

Sam Vaknin, too, has warned that scholarship behind various "disorders" is much more arbitrary than scientific, and he has his many doubts. I don't consider myself an expert, and I have doubts that are any experts.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Cary2 For This Useful Post:
TamaraL (11-21-2020)
  #30  
Unread 11-21-2020, 05:41 PM
passiflora's Avatar
passiflora passiflora is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
I have not contributed because I have doubts about the conflicting doctrines concerning the topic of ASD and other similar things like ADHD.

My mother was a psychotherapist, and my experience with her left me with considerable distrust of the entire field of so-called psychological research.

I have considerable doubt that so-called "disorders" are provably pathological. They are far more arbitrary than scientific. Sam Vaknin has also expressed similar conclusions.

Vaknin is a polymath with multiple degrees who is recognized as an influencial psychologist and author who is especially forthcoming about narcissism and psychopathy. Vaknin has expressed similar concerns to mine about so-called disorders.

Vaknin reveals that the much-quoted DSM was invented by the profession to act as a manual for insurance firms to guide them in their estimations of treatment costs and reimbursements for such costs. In doing so, he points out that the DSM is seriously flawed as a diagnostic tool.

Sam Vaknin, too, has warned that scholarship behind various "disorders" is much more arbitrary than scientific, and he has his many doubts. I don't consider myself an expert, and I have doubts that are any experts.
Cary2, as an ex-psychologist I found myself nodding in agreement throughout your post (though Vaknin himself is vexing as a self-proclaimed narcissist). Itís very difficult to work with labels and fatalistic containers such as disorders, particularly those that are as you say reimbursement constructs. Planetary aspects are more helpful in illustrating tendencies and remedies. If you have remedial ideas from your work with midpoints I would be very curious to hear them.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Unread 11-21-2020, 06:22 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Cary2, as an ex-psychologist I found myself nodding in agreement throughout your post (though Vaknin himself is vexing as a self-proclaimed narcissist). It’s very difficult to work with labels and fatalistic containers such as disorders, particularly those that are as you say reimbursement constructs. Planetary aspects are more helpful in illustrating tendencies and remedies. If you have remedial ideas from your work with midpoints I would be very curious to hear them.
I have had difficulty finding accurate charts of people "certifiably" suffering from Asperger's, or autism for that matter. In my work, I must study from a pool of candidates in order to find the patterns.

I am fascinated that autism has a spectrum, and I suspect that sociopathy and other pathologies have a spectrum as well. I have met people who were more than a little sociopathic in my view who were never diagnosed as such. It does not dismiss their behavior that they were not formally diagnosed.

I have found that pathological behavior in examples who are emphatically and clearly defined, are not arranged on a spectrum by classical astrology. Astrology seems to declare that one has a tendency to pathological behavior but does not clearly subdivide the category beyond that. There is the hint of derangement without a clear category of derangement. Perhaps future astrologers will successfully define focused subcatagories that are reliable indications. As an astrologer, I would have difficulty differentiating between a sociopath, a psychopath, or a narcissist using astrological tools.

Astrology suggests madness without a clear discernment of which madness is at hand. John Wayne Gayce's chart shows madness and violence in two different places. Some mad people are not violent, but violence is added to the mix in Gayce's chart. I must rely on the synthesis of the entire chart to venture an overall assessment, and I use clinical psychological terms at my peril, so I tend to use more lay terms to describe the tendency to pathology that I see. I prefer "derangement", "delusion", "confusion", and various afflictions than try to mimic a professional psychologist.

Let me add that astrology is a study of tendencies, and some people have the hint of derangement without actually succumbing to it, and that is so important to remember for the practicing astrologer.

Last edited by Cary2; 11-21-2020 at 06:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Unread 11-21-2020, 08:15 PM
passiflora's Avatar
passiflora passiflora is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,423
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

All very well put, especially the last lines. You summarize well why classical astrology doesn't work for many people who aren't interested in prediction, at least divorced from the context of a particular life.

Saturn's role in psychological traits challenging to the individual is difficult to discern at times because social positioning defines so much of health and disorder. Psychopathic, narcissistic, antisocial traits in individuals from lower socio/cultural/economic strata are more easily pathologized, while a powerful individual with those traits ... well, often times it seems there is a disproportionate number of people in positions of power who display traits that ought to be diagnosable just for the sheer pain they inflict on those around them, the hundreds of millions of dollars that may go missing or mismanaged, etc.

I see Saturn sitting at the ascendant of the child diagnosed with autism up-thread, a potent reminder of how much modern life sickens children: with exposure to toxic chemicals so widespread they appear even in the milk of the mother, in the placenta and umbilical cord; with institutionally-sanctioned drug treatments beginning right from birth and even during pregnancy; with social expectations of behavior very far from those that would bestow wild health, and the list goes on. Many associate ASD traits with Mercury automagically, but growing evidence implicates the gut in a systemic inflammation.

Maybe with time, that child's Rahu also near the Asc gives the ability to rise above the afflictions of Saturn. It could be too, that in addition to the soul trajectory of the child, the ministrations of the parents and various therapies help overcome what could be spoken of by a classical astrologer as a lifelong curse. As implied in your final lines, people are able to outwit their natal charts. Can you use clues from the natal chart to do that, midpoints for example?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Unread 11-22-2020, 04:58 AM
AVisitor AVisitor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 6
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Autism/Aspergers/etc. is indicated by Neptune aspects, likely squares. A Jupiter-Neptune square would be an indicator ("too much [Jupiter] in the dream world [Neptune]"). Generally, autistic traits are in the "dreaminess" realm, which is Neptune. I speak from experience.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AVisitor For This Useful Post:
TamaraL (11-23-2020)
  #34  
Unread 11-22-2020, 12:23 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVisitor View Post
Autism/Aspergers/etc. is indicated by Neptune aspects, likely squares. A Jupiter-Neptune square would be an indicator ("too much [Jupiter] in the dream world [Neptune]"). Generally, autistic traits are in the "dreaminess" realm, which is Neptune. I speak from experience.
I think you are right. Martin Seymour-Smith offered "mystery-illnesses" as a keyword for the Jupiter/Neptune combination.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Unread 11-23-2020, 12:38 AM
AVisitor AVisitor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 6
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
I think you are right. Martin Seymour-Smith offered "mystery-illnesses" as a keyword for the Jupiter/Neptune combination.

Are you sure that statement is about Jupiter/Neptune, or Saturn/Neptune? Jupiter doesn't have to do with health, while Saturn does. Jupiter is about "expansion" and "too much" of something.


In the case of autism, that is a condition that can be described as "too much dreaminess" which is why Jupiter factors into Neptune. It could also be Mercury or Mars aspecting Neptune.

Last edited by AVisitor; 11-23-2020 at 12:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Unread 11-26-2020, 06:12 AM
cappytothemoon cappytothemoon is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 1
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

I'm a female diagnosed with autism (formerly aspergers), and ADHD.

Here is my chart for anyone interested:

The main points of interest are probably the capricorn stellium in the 3rd and 4th houses that includes mars, mercury, uranus, neptune, and sun, with saturn also in the 4th house, but in aquarius. My moon in cancer in the 10th house opposes this stellium. Pluto is in scorpio in my first house, trine with the moon. Jupiter in virgo in 12th house trine neptune, uranus, and mercury.

If anyone has any thoughts on my chart and the connection to ADHD/autism please feel free to share them.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Unread 11-26-2020, 01:56 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappytothemoon View Post
I'm a female diagnosed with autism (formerly aspergers), and ADHD.

Here is my chart for anyone interested:

The main points of interest are probably the capricorn stellium in the 3rd and 4th houses that includes mars, mercury, uranus, neptune, and sun, with saturn also in the 4th house, but in aquarius. My moon in cancer in the 10th house opposes this stellium. Pluto is in scorpio in my first house, trine with the moon. Jupiter in virgo in 12th house trine neptune, uranus, and mercury.

If anyone has any thoughts on my chart and the connection to ADHD/autism please feel free to share them.
My first impression from your description (which is much inferior to a chart for analysis) is that one could easily mistake you for someone who is intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination. The Moon opposition and the Fourth House Saturn might suggest a burden from genetics.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Unread 11-26-2020, 06:02 PM
Osamenor's Avatar
Osamenor Osamenor is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,633
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
My first impression from your description (which is much inferior to a chart for analysis) is that one could easily mistake you for someone who is intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination. The Moon opposition and the Fourth House Saturn might suggest a burden from genetics.
Being intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination is not mutually exclusive with ADHD and autism. In fact, those are key traits.

So, logically, we should expect to get an impression of intellectual brilliance and rich imagination in the chart of anyone with either or both of those diagnoses.
__________________
Private messages welcome if they're moderation-related matters or personal messages for me, but please do not send me astrological questions or chart reading requests. I only answer those on the forum, in my practice, and on my blog at https://www.thebearsnose.com/, a separate site from this one.

Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Osamenor For This Useful Post:
TamaraL (11-26-2020)
  #39  
Unread 11-26-2020, 06:10 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Being intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination is not mutually exclusive with ADHD and autism. In fact, those are key traits.

So, logically, we should expect to get an impression of intellectual brilliance and rich imagination in the chart of anyone with either or both of those diagnoses.
I agree, and it was my point, but it makes me still more hesitant to accept the arbitrary nature of "disorder" research.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Unread 11-26-2020, 06:18 PM
Osamenor's Avatar
Osamenor Osamenor is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,633
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
I agree, and it was my point, but it makes me still more hesitant to accept the arbitrary nature of "disorder" research.
If that was your point, why did you say, "mistaken for"? There's nothing to mistake.

What's arbitrary is calling it a disorder. Homosexuality used to be known as a disorder, too.

Similarly, people ask if there are "gay" markers in a birth chart. Arguably, there are, but the same markers appear in the charts of straight people too. And when we look for astrological markers of neuroatypicality, we may find some that appear time and again, but they also appear for neurotypical people.

Everything astrological can manifest in a variety of ways.
__________________
Private messages welcome if they're moderation-related matters or personal messages for me, but please do not send me astrological questions or chart reading requests. I only answer those on the forum, in my practice, and on my blog at https://www.thebearsnose.com/, a separate site from this one.

Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Osamenor For This Useful Post:
TamaraL (11-26-2020)
  #41  
Unread 11-26-2020, 07:11 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

In High School, the popular, extroverted, insensitive kids usually adopt the opinion that the brainy, introverted, and sensitive kids are defective. It is typical adolescent behavior, and we should not let such defective thinking invade the scholarship upon which we depend. I think much of the thought on "disorders" is no more reliable than that, so I am skeptical.

B. F. Skinner and the behaviorists were very scientific in their investigation of psychology, and Jordan Peterson has relied more heavily than most on hard science, but the run-of-the-mill psychologists feel little need to do scientific research into their pet theories. They are prone, therefore, to introduce their personal preferences about human behavior into their scholarship, and they often either stigmatize what they dislike, or they absolve from responsibility those they deem "clinically disordered". I consider that bad science.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Unread 11-26-2020, 07:13 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
If that was your point, why did you say, "mistaken for"? There's nothing to mistake.

What's arbitrary is calling it a disorder. Homosexuality used to be known as a disorder, too.

Similarly, people ask if there are "gay" markers in a birth chart. Arguably, there are, but the same markers appear in the charts of straight people too. And when we look for astrological markers of neuroatypicality, we may find some that appear time and again, but they also appear for neurotypical people.

Everything astrological can manifest in a variety of ways.
My use of the word "mistake" was ironic. I meant that in the future, I don't want to assume those with intelligence and imagination are disordered.

Last edited by Cary2; 11-26-2020 at 08:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Unread 11-26-2020, 08:02 PM
leomoon's Avatar
leomoon leomoon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,132
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

I knew two people who are both employed as nurses (the male & female nurses) One in hospice care, the other (male) in the hospitals.

They were quite sad and told me that their neighbors had children and they didn't and they were getting older now 17 or so years ago.



When the husband was around 43 and wife perhaps 34 they had twins. Both were elated when they found out she was pregnant and with twins. The children were born sometime before noon (I can't recall exactly now), so I used noon, but it was just before noon. She delivered them Cesarean and a planned time.


They were both determined to be autistic around age 2-3 and one was "worse then the other" for not connecting with people.



From my notes I saved - For example, once I had them over for swimming around age 5-6. "C" readily engaged but "L" his twin did not. Everytime "L" wanted to speak, he'd speak in a 3rd person type of way always disconnected from himself it seemed.


Example: "Look mommy, the swimmer is swimming" (instead of using his own name or saying "I" am swimming he would say, "Look at the swimmer"



When my husband made them grilled cheese sandwiches, they came into the house. "L" looked into the pantry for cookies, I forgot he had before, Vanilla wafers. He grabbed the box, ran outside and when we said, "give your brother one" he gave him just one exactly and didn't offer to share them.


from my notes -


They BOTH wanted the "Pink Noodles" for the pool, and we had one purple & one pink....so it was settled by suggesting that the Purple one had a flower shape on the end.

C.... is mostly the more distant, (focused one)..........and L.... is more the ADD - jumpy, fast and every moving one.

Both are cute. "L"... kept saying, "that's L....'s house, (over our fence) are you coming over to see his garden?" Never self-involved when talking about himself.


TOB in question, but definitely just before noon - 10AM -12 is safe to believe.



Their mom had a very difficult pregnancy, was quite sick a lot.

Being nurses, I recall telling the father that they were very equipped more then any others to take care of the boys (when the father expressed sadness to me) after they were diagnosed.
"Better equipped then most would be as parents"..I said."they'll do just fine" not knowing if they would or not of course.


But as it turned out, the parents got First class help coming in 3 times a week to tutor the children for a few years, and they both attended Public school now for many years,(they are currently 17 yrs old now) ....


Still they are different in their mannerisms, much like when younger, but "L" has improved quite a bit and his twin "C" you can't even tell if you didn't know it.


They seem to keep only each other as best friends always together. Their father bought them each a car, like older 70's and they drive them once in a blue moon (literally), always with father in the car.



Yes, the father is quite strict with them (always has them on a rigid schedule) perhaps told to do so by the early tutors. and counselors who would teach them.


I recall "L" being in a grocery store and bumping into them when they were around 12 yrs old at the produce section. Both boys were there, but "L" clung onto his father in a bear hug (he was still younger then)...
The father told him not to be so emotional......in a sharp tone said, "Be a man, L"


They ALL seem to do well as an intact family, lots of structure, lots of busy time in the summers boating, (he bought a nice motor boat) and an RV so they go camping together. They all graduated from camping outdoors to now in the RV. They really seem to be doing quite well at their age now. But not much freedom that I can tell.



I know the father is a Scorpio Sun, and I think the mother is an Air sign, but I can't say for certain now.



They are Fraternal twins

note: 3 planets are in the 29th degree i.e. Mercury, Mars - Uranus.








__________________
Some kindle eBooks on the subject of astrology, fixed stars and critical degrees. You can find them here if interested: http://www.amazon.com/author/dmhoover

Last edited by leomoon; 11-26-2020 at 08:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Unread 11-26-2020, 08:27 PM
Cary2's Avatar
Cary2 Cary2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 695
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
I knew two people who are both employed as nurses (the male & female nurses) One in hospice care, the other (male) in the hospitals.

They were quite sad and told me that their neighbors had children and they didn't and they were getting older now 17 or so years ago.



When the husband was around 43 and wife perhaps 34 they had twins. Both were elated when they found out she was pregnant and with twins. The children were born sometimes before noon (I can't recall exactly now), so I used noon, but it was just before noon. She delivered them Cesarean and a planned time.


They were both determined to be autistic around age 2-3 and one was "worse then the other" for not connecting with people.



From my notes I saved - For example, once I had them over for swimming around age 5-6. "C" readily engaged but "L" his twin did not. Everytime "L" wanted to speak, he'd speak in a 3rd person type of way always disconnected from himself it seemed.


Example: "Look mommy, the swimmer is swimming " (instead of using his own name or saying "I" am swimming he would say, "Look at the swimmer"



When my husband made them grilled cheese sandwiches, they came into the house. "L" looked into the pantry for cookies, I forgot he had before, Vanilla wafers. He grabbed the box, ran outside and when we said, "give your brother one" he gave him just one exactly and didn't offer to share them.


from my notes -


They BOTH wanted the "Pink Noodles" for the pool, and we had one purple & one pink....so it was settled by suggesting that the Purple one had a flower shape on the end.

C.... is mostly the more distant, (focused one)..........and L.... is more the ADD - jumpy, fast and every moving one.

Both are cute. Logan kept saying, "that's L....'s house, (over our fence) are you coming over to see his garden?" Never self-involved.


TOB in question, but definitely just before noon - 10AM -12 is safe to believe.



Their mom had a very difficult pregnancy, was quite sick a lot.

Being nurses, I recall telling the father that they were very equipped more then any others to take care of the boys (when the father expressed sadness to me) after they were diagnosed.
"Better equipped then most would be as parents"....."they'll do just fine" not knowing if they would or not of course.


But as it turned out, the parents got First class help coming in 3 times a week to tutor the children and they both attended Public school now for many years,(they are currently 17 yrs old now) ....


Still they are different in their mannerisms, much like when younger, but "L" has improved quite a bit and his twin "C" you can't even tell if you didn't know it.


They seem to keep only each other as best friends always together. Their father bought them each a car, like older 70's and they drive them once in a blue moon (literally), always with father in the car.



Yes, the father is quite strict with them (always has them on a rigid schedule) perhaps told to do so by the early tutors. and counselors who would teach them.


I recall "L" being in a grocery store and bumping into them when they were around 12 yrs old at the produce section. Both boys were there, but "L" clung onto his father in a bear hug (he was still younger then)...
The father told him not to be so emotional......in a sharp tone said, "Be a man, L"


They ALL seem to do well as an intact family, lots of structure, lots of busy time in the summers boating, (he bought a nice motor boat) and an RV so they go camping together. They all graduated from camping outdoors to now in the RV. They really seem to be doing quite well at their age now. But not much freedom that I can tell.



I know the father is a Scorpio Sun, and I think the mother is an Air sign, but I can't say for certain now.



They are Fraternal twins

note: 3 planets are in the 29th degree i.e. Mercury, Mars - Uranus.








Again I see the suggestion of intellectual brilliance (Mercury-conjunct-Uranus) and a rich imagination (Jupiter-oppose-Neptune). How can this be used to diagnose Asperger's?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Unread 11-27-2020, 12:58 AM
TamaraL's Avatar
TamaraL TamaraL is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Between Neptune & Pluto
Posts: 510
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
If that was your point, why did you say, "mistaken for"? There's nothing to mistake.

What's arbitrary is calling it a disorder. Homosexuality used to be known as a disorder, too.

Similarly, people ask if there are "gay" markers in a birth chart. Arguably, there are, but the same markers appear in the charts of straight people too. And when we look for astrological markers of neuroatypicality, we may find some that appear time and again, but they also appear for neurotypical people.

Everything astrological can manifest in a variety of ways.
I think there is a high level of ignorance about ASD (or Aspergers Syndrome) even by psychiatrists and clinical psychologists due to its complex nature and possibly other reasons (lack of research, societal taboos about autism, etc.). Therefore don't expect to figure out a pattern to spot it in the chart easily. I totally agree that it can manifest through various astrological patterns though!

The ASD diagnosis is very complex, often it requires a team of specialists who will often disagree or approach the subject so theoretically (meaning might not recognize the individual traits right away, or might misdiagnose the person as having a personality disorder). This process takes months or years in order to be "accurate".

The doctors who diagnosed me told me "You are not an autistic woman but you are technically on the functional side of the spectrum" in an attempt to make it sound that I am not severely autistic and due to genetics I somehow ended up on this side. However, now that I am studying further about this condition, ASD or Aspergers (!) is a contradiction in itself. It's a paradox where technically you are not severely autistic but at the same time, you exhibit strong 'autistic traits' that have an impact on your life and the way you relate to others. For example, maintaining eye contact or the ability to have long-term friendships and demonstrate empathy. Astrologically maybe Pluto has something to do with it, I have been told before in this forum that Pluto is the most important planet in my chart and this justified my loner's early years. (Saturn as well).

The important thing to remind yourselves is that ASD is not a disease, and I am not sure that labeling it a disorder is appropriate. (For experts, it is appropriate, obviously, however, I don't approach this as scientific research here.) What I am trying to say is that quite often labels fail to get to the true nature of things and that nowadays almost everyone can be diagnosed with some disorder. I think we need to accept there is no normal. Specifically, a psychiatrist told me that "there is no such thing as normal, there is only the pathological".
__________________
"Nobody can hurt me without my permission." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TamaraL For This Useful Post:
Cary2 (11-28-2020), Osamenor (11-28-2020)
  #46  
Unread 11-28-2020, 10:49 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dairyland
Posts: 2,086
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
The important thing to remind yourselves is that ASD is not a disease, and I am not sure that labeling it a disorder is appropriate. (For experts, it is appropriate, obviously, however, I don't approach this as scientific research here.) What I am trying to say is that quite often labels fail to get to the true nature of things and that nowadays almost everyone can be diagnosed with some disorder. I think we need to accept there is no normal. Specifically, a psychiatrist told me that "there is no such thing as normal, there is only the pathological".
For the case of the mental diversity of this topic, I think that the description Osamenor supplied ....neuroatypicality .... is a very good substitute for the 'dis-....' labels because it does not imply any form of dis-crimination.
Yet would it be adequate to include the influence of emotional expression under the same description?
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Frisiangal For This Useful Post:
Osamenor (11-28-2020), TamaraL (11-28-2020)
  #47  
Unread 11-28-2020, 07:02 PM
Osamenor's Avatar
Osamenor Osamenor is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,633
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraL View Post
The important thing to remind yourselves is that ASD is not a disease, and I am not sure that labeling it a disorder is appropriate. (For experts, it is appropriate, obviously, however, I don't approach this as scientific research here.) What I am trying to say is that quite often labels fail to get to the true nature of things and that nowadays almost everyone can be diagnosed with some disorder. I think we need to accept there is no normal. Specifically, a psychiatrist told me that "there is no such thing as normal, there is only the pathological".
Very true... and yet, being "diagnosed" with a "disorder" is, unfortunately, the only way you can get the adaptations that you may need to finish school or hold down a job. Some of us are greatly helped by medication, either in general or under certain circumstances, but to get that, you have to be diagnosed.

So, we're made to adopt a label.
__________________
Private messages welcome if they're moderation-related matters or personal messages for me, but please do not send me astrological questions or chart reading requests. I only answer those on the forum, in my practice, and on my blog at https://www.thebearsnose.com/, a separate site from this one.

Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Osamenor For This Useful Post:
TamaraL (11-28-2020)
  #48  
Unread 11-29-2020, 02:38 AM
TamaraL's Avatar
TamaraL TamaraL is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Between Neptune & Pluto
Posts: 510
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Very true... and yet, being "diagnosed" with a "disorder" is, unfortunately, the only way you can get the adaptations that you may need to finish school or hold down a job. Some of us are greatly helped by medication, either in general or under certain circumstances, but to get that, you have to be diagnosed.

So, we're made to adopt a label.
You are totally right. I have come to realize that the diagnosis is the only tool for self-development and understanding the disorder. (Even a late diagnosis such as my case) By the way, I am not trying to sugarcoat this disorder. I really want to understand it.
__________________
"Nobody can hurt me without my permission." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Unread 01-14-2021, 08:37 PM
brainpuddle brainpuddle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 104
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

I read a study not long ago from a New York City hospital, comparing birth month to afflictions treated. Many of the conclusions were very much in line with things I'd read about or observed in astrology, including autism spiking in September births. This makes perfect sense to me, as in many ways, autism can be seen as an extreme exacerbation of natural Virgo traits.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Unread 01-14-2021, 08:58 PM
Osamenor's Avatar
Osamenor Osamenor is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,633
Re: Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

All,

Please remember, this is an astrological thread. I've deleted a few posts that veered off the subject of astrology. An occasional side comment is one thing, and I've left a few of those, but multiple non-astrological posts take the thread off track. If you want to discuss asperger's/autism without astrology, please take it to Chat.

Keeping it on track,
Osamenor
__________________
Private messages welcome if they're moderation-related matters or personal messages for me, but please do not send me astrological questions or chart reading requests. I only answer those on the forum, in my practice, and on my blog at https://www.thebearsnose.com/, a separate site from this one.

Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
asperger, autistic, chart, traits

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.